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SourceForge Terms of Service Change, Users Unhappy

Posted by CmdrTaco on Wed Feb 13, 2002 01:34 PM
from the stuff-to-think-about dept.
An email fluttering around a few mailing lists has been submitted in various forms here today. It's about changes to the SourceForge terms of service. Some relevant links unclude the old terms, new terms, old privacy statement, new privacy statement and contact for "questions or concerns" (Patrick McGovern, Site Director). Obviously since SF is owned by the same parent company as Slashdot, I'm biased and corrupt and you should ignore my opinions on the subject, but while I don't particularly like this any more then anyone else, I also don't think it's the huge deal that others are making of it. Especially considering projects aren't paying for the free service. You get what you pay for after all. I have attached a summary to this article of the changes that are being called into question if you don't want to do a mental diff on the links above.

This list was submitted by a few different users and was apparently originally posted to several mailing lists, although I don't know who actually originally wrote it. I just quote it here for reference.

  1. They can henceforth change the terms without notice, just by posting the new terms on the website. (Currently they are obliged to give 15 days notice by email, a period that we are currently in for this change.)
  2. They can henceforth remove user accounts without giving a reason. (Currently they are obliged to have a reason, though the set of acceptable reasons is open-ended.)
  3. They're no longer obliged to make the contents of a deleted account available to its owner. (There was previously a "reasonable effort" clause to that effect.)
  4. They're no longer obliged to provide notice of changes to the privacy policy, unless the changes are "substantive". (Currently they are obliged to provide notice of any change.)
  5. The privacy policy is acquiring a disclaimer that amounts to "this is not true". It actually disclaims the entire privacy policy.
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  • I dunno ... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gurensan (259321) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:36PM (#3001517) Journal
    If they disclaim the privacy policy, why do they bother having one at all?

    • Having a useless "Privacy Policy" is a common tactic by commercial web sites to decieve users. It fools most users into thinking that there are protections on thier data due to the fact that the policy exists, or if the user bothers to read it the goal is make it worded such that the lack of protections is concealed.

        • Re:I dunno ... (Score:5, Informative)

          by aka-ed (459608) <robt.public @ g m ail.com> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @07:17PM (#3004144) Homepage Journal
          Can you name a site for reference?

          Hotmail. After avoiding them for ages, I created an account in order to scope Passport.

          The "Greet-King" spam I received within a week of creating a hotmail account that I never used resulted in a lengthy bout of mails to their abuse department and to "TrustE" (the supposed industry "watchdog" which is actuallly just a shill to prevent guvmnt action).

          Despite MS assurances that my information would not be shared, their insistence remained that Greet-King got my name and email address from me, when it was not at all possible. Despite the statement that "Hotmail will not sell, lease or rent its member lists with any third parties," they refuse to accept any statement on the user's part that the email address and my name were not shared anywhere.

          Hence, a "useless" privacy policy. And a deception -- even if it was just a renegade MS employee that pilfered some user names, MS is uninterested in knowing about it. Carelessness that is not, I believe, an uncommon phenomenon.

  • by LordOfYourPants (145342) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:38PM (#3001526)
    "Other Notification: In order to implement or enforce the Terms of SourceForge.net, SourceForge.net may use personal information to contact users on an individual basis."

    What this basically means is that they reserve the right to call you on the phone at 3 AM and breathe heavily.

      • You get what you pay for after all.

        Did CmdrTaco, one of the helmsmen of the most popular Free/OS news sites in existence just mimic what Microsoft PR/FUD machine has been saying since Linux showed up on its threat radar?

        Why isn't everyone kicking CmdrTaco's ASS?
        • Did CmdrTaco, one of the helmsmen of the most popular Free/OS news sites in existence just mimic what Microsoft PR/FUD machine has been saying since Linux showed up on its threat radar?

          I was thinking something along those same lines, but then I remembered that he's talking about a service that it costs money to continue providing. He's not talking about source code or software, he's talking about a website providing a service.

          There is a very big difference.

          We're lucky to live in a time when people are giving away their code, but we're luckier still to live in a time when there are SO many entirely free (except for ads) web services.

          All the same, free or not, I can't think of an above-the-board reason a why site would need a policy allowing it to change it's terms of use without first notifying it's users. That just seems low down and shady.
                • by notsoanonymouscoward (102492) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @05:00PM (#3003235) Journal
                  If you're gonna offer something for free... then you can do it however you damn well please. What is this "right" crap you guys keep talking about? You mean acceptable by your standards? Geez don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

                  And in case you didn't know... alot of the volunteer housing projects aren't exactly examples of fine craftsmanship... but it is the BEST people can offer. they are trying to help and make a difference. So shut up and take it... or shut up and dont' take it... or speak up and DO something about it. What have you done?

  • hmm (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:38PM (#3001535)
    Sounds like they're trying to streamline the administration of the service so as to make it more attractive to a buyer... Wonder if they have any particular company in mind?
    • Re:hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

      by technomancerX (86975) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:59PM (#3001753) Homepage
      Either that or they're just trying to cut costs in general (not unreasonable considering SourceForge.net isn't exactly cheap to run... the cost of the connections alone has to be monstrous....)

      Also, considering SourceForge is their product and SourceForge.net is a great demo of their functionality/scalability they'd have to be looking to sell the whole SourceForge business, not just SourceForge.net for it to make sense... Logical buyers would probably be RedHat or IBM. It would be a PR coo for whoever buys it, and if it's IBM and they move it over to their hardware it'd be a REALLY good marketing point... especially for their new Linux mainframe...

      Nothing like fanning the flames of random speculation =)

      • by Eric Green (627) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:36PM (#3002046) Homepage
        From what I can tell, Sourceforge.net is not a viable business. It spends millions of dollars each year on bandwidth, sysadmins, and server farm in order to get maybe half a million dollars in contract fees. IBM is not in the business of losing money, and neither is RedHat. Neither needs SourceForge for PR purposes.

        SourceForge will eventually either need to charge money or will be spun off as a (soon to be bankrupt) spinoff business, leaving VA Software with just the various web sites. The web sites are probably (barely) profitable with the cost-cutting that has been done on them over the past year or so. SourceForge is not profitable, and never can be.

        I currently have four projects hosted at SourceForge. I download the CVS web-ball every night in my crontab, and am investigating alternatives. At the moment it appears that any alternative will require developers to fork up money to help pay for the bandwidth. SourceForge itself has too many big (bandwidth) projects to make money even then, because if they charged what the bandwidth costs, most of those projects would end up hosted elsewhere shortly with companies who can hide the bandwidth costs in their accounting noise.

        Does this mean that I wish SourceForge ill? Of course not. I just don't see how it can ever be profitable, and thus while I'll use it while it lasts, I'm not banking on it.

        • If you're looking for alternatives, have a look at BerliOS [berlios.de]. It uses the software of SF so you won't have to change much.
        • It spends millions of dollars each year on bandwidth, sysadmins, and server farm in order to get maybe half a million dollars in contract fees. IBM is not in the business of losing money, and neither is RedHat. Neither needs SourceForge for PR purposes.

          Let's see, Microsoft spends $1,000,000,000 to promote XP through print, TV, Radio, purchase of journalists, politicians and stenographers and billboards. This brings abslolutlly nothing in return but some marginal good will that they nullify with poor programs and scandal. Their sales are kept through extortion and other monopoly tricks. Yet people consider it a viable business.

          You would conclude that Red Hat, IBM and Source Forge taken as a unit are not a viable business? Source Forge returns good will and programs for free use to both Red Hat and IBM. Without that kind of PR, what does Open Source have? The scale of losses you quote, if accurate are nothing to a company with revenues in the billions. Those paltry millions, spent on ordinary adverts, could hardly push a brand of soap.

          The only think that can kill source forge is a betrayal of free software or some other greedy grab move. It's bad enough that they would switch to comercial databases and made the site an advertisment for software they would sell rather than a demonstration of free software they would service and issue with equipment. Anything to lessen Source Forge good will or software contribution would hurt them more than any direct costs.

        • IBM is not in the business of losing money, and neither is RedHat. Neither needs SourceForge for PR purposes.
          RedHat, and even IBM, do seem to be willing to invest in the betterment of Open Source, and SF (or a clone) is actually a great investment. An expensive investment, and an almost completely untargeted investment, but the cost of bandwidth, servers, and admins is directly related to the benefit gained from them (if SF was useless they could host it on a 486 running in some kids dorm room). And I think the cost of running SF is far, far less than the cost of all those projects doing similar things independently.

          If either company wanted to be more targeted, they could set something like SF up and be more selective of their projects.

  • Big deal (Score:4, Insightful)

    by PhotoGuy (189467) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:38PM (#3001542) Homepage
    So they changed their terms of service saying they can change their terms of service in the future (whooopie), and that they can delete user's accounts without needing cause.

    I think this is perfectly reasonable; they're running the show, and a lot of the time in communities, there are members you need to deal with. I think the changes listed are more of an administrative streamlining than a major conspiracy.

    Now, if they start abusing things, folks will be all over them, and they'll be sorry they did. So that ain't gonna happen.

    Not a big deal.

    -me
    • Re:Big deal (Score:4, Insightful)

      by BluesMoon (100100) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:24PM (#3001951) Homepage
      Didn't anyone notice this?
      After receiving a claim of infringement, SourceForge.net will process and investigate notices of alleged infringement and will take appropriate actions under the DMCA and other applicable intellectual property laws. Upon receipt of notices complying or substantially complying with the DMCA, SourceForge.net will act expeditiously to remove or disable access to any material claimed to be infringing or claimed to be the subject of infringing activity, and will act expeditiously to remove or disable access to any reference or link to material or activity that is claimed to be infringing. SourceForge.net will take reasonable steps promptly to notify the subscriber that it has removed or disabled access to such material.
      I am not a lawyer, but I get touchy when people mention the DMCA. Maybe someone would like to clarify what this means.
      • Re:Big deal (Score:3, Informative)

        Hmmm...IANALY, but what this means is that Sourceforge.net will follow the law. It means that if someone posts copyrighted material without authorization, they will take down that material (as required by law of a common carrier).
  • Sourceforge reality. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Matt2000 (29624) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:39PM (#3001553) Homepage

    Anyone who's using Sourceforge to host their project, as I am, should be realistic about what they're getting and for how long they'll get it.

    First of all, I love sourceforge. It gives me all of the things I want right out of the box and for free. User forums, bug tracking, SSH CVS, and so on.

    However, it is free and I think we all know has a pretty slim chance of making money. With that in mind, no matter what their polcies state there seems to be a pretty good chance of them just exploding one fine morning and taking a whole bunch of source down with them. Make backups, I should too.

    Other than that, we can be a demanding lot so try to go easy on these guys, let's give them a chance to survive.
      • I think the GNU project is running something called Savannah which is basically sourceforge's engine running on their server. Yep: http://savannah.gnu.org/ Disclaimer: I really know nothing about the service save that it exists, RTFFinePrint. For all I know, there is an "All Your src Are Belong To Us" clause in the user agreement.
        • Note that Savannah is moving away from the Sourceforge engine, due to, quote, "its unmaintainable nature" unquote. As someone who has hacked two different versions of the Sourceforge engine to the point of usability, I must agree with them about the basic unmaintainable nature of the Sourceforge source code. Talk about a mess!
  • by ShmakDown (536071) <jim@cs.uoregon.edu> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:39PM (#3001554) Homepage

    It seems like this is laying the ground work for real changes that can be slipped by when they think no one is paying attention!

  • by immanis (557955) <immanis AT sfgoth DOT com> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:43PM (#3001592) Homepage Journal

    Anytime you get a wide user base to anything, ranging from a development site to a game site to a bbs or chatroom, if the powers that be add a period to the end of a sentance in thier policies, there will be:

    1. no fewer than 6 users who try to mount an Exodous;
    2. 14 threads or conversations from the angry citizens
    3. at least two campaigns to get the policies changed back, one angry with a lot of swearing, one long and thought out with good reasoning
    4. a spike in usage
    5. at least 12 users who say "it is the end of an age.

    Now, watch the comments here, and have your scorecards ready.

  • by gmhowell (26755) <gmhowell@gmail.com> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:43PM (#3001593) Homepage Journal
    I host a project [http] at sourceforge, and I've been more than happy with the service I've gotten. I have CVS space, ftp space, mailing lists, discussion boards, and web space. And as far as I can tell, they have nothing from me except for some slightly useful information from my profile.

    Big whoop.

    There is nothing they can take from me. I have the source code. I update my local cvs daily. The project webpage is garbage, and half of the discussions about development are in email. The greatest benefit is that the package I run has been difficult to find, and now it has a 'permanent' home.

    I'd have more problems with, oh, say, Comcast changing the TOS. Or M$. Or AOL. When those guys change things, I always get the "I changed the bargain, just pray I don't alter it any further" impression. With sourceforge, I AM A LEECH. I live at the whim of my host.

    If they piss me off, it's off to the FSF hosted site. No problem.

    Hey, I don't like the VA Systems->Linux->Software scam. I'm part of the gang whinging about the 'post'. And I often question the integrity of folks. But sourceforge.net never promised anything, and they haven't disappointed me yet.

    Nothing to see. Move along.
  • by zangdesign (462534) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:43PM (#3001598) Journal
    of getting Sourceforge to kill off old, inactive projects? Seriously, the tree needs a little trimming. One has to wade through so many unmaintained alpha releases when trying to find a specific thing that it's easier to do a search on Google these days.

    SF is a great resource and all, but there needs to be some way to filter out the abandoned stuff.

    • by DaCool42 (525559) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:46PM (#3001636) Homepage
      On the contrary, i think that it is very good that old projects are not thrown out. They are always there for people to pick up where others left off.
      • by istartedi (132515) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:05PM (#3001802) Journal

        I was thinking the same thing, but the OP has a point. Why not create a "Sourceforge attic" with an option to exclude the attic from searches? A project would go into the attic if it had less than a minimum number of downloads and/or changes for a period of 6 months.

        The attic could be hosted on older, slower servers, or on a configuration that worked well under low demand. Or perhaps it could even be archived on CD or DVD and distributed to various mirrors.

        Regardless of how it is maintained, old code is a valuable resource, even if it's just there to let people know about methods that have been tried and failed. How can we learn from mistakes if we can't *see* them?

  • by jeroenb (125404) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:46PM (#3001635) Homepage
    After being registered for over two years [sourceforge.net], about a week ago I started my first project there [sourceforge.net]. And a couple days later they change their policies so they can kick me off, keep all the stuff I put up there, contact me whenever they want and sell my personal information. Coincidence? :-)
  • Projects (Score:3, Informative)

    by mystran (545374) <mystran@gmail.com> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:47PM (#3001653) Homepage
    If they can delete accounts at will, and they don't even need to recover the data you had there, then they can basicly remove all admins from a project if they wish so. This means that you need to have a copy of everything somewhere else just in case. (which you should have anyway but..)

    It's a bit questionable if you need a CVS somewhere else, a mailing list archive somewhere else, a patch archive somewhere else, project homepage somewhere else.. whether it's any use to have them a SourceForge at all.. too bad since it really is a great tool, even if sometimes really laggy.

    This sure ain't good news for maintainers of small projects.. especially of projects of questionable usefulness..

  • by bperkins (12056) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:48PM (#3001661) Homepage Journal
    OB IANAL

    1. The privacy policy is acquiring a disclaimer that amounts to "this is not true". It actually disclaims the entire privacy policy.

    To say that the clause at the end claims the privacy policy is "not true" is pretty simplistic. It attempts to avoid iablility for circumstances beyond their control, which is a far cry from disclaiming the entire thing.

    In other words if armed men break into our facilities and steal our database and sell it to spammers, or our daatabase administrator gets a brain tumor and tries to "MAKE MONEY FAST!", we think we shouldn't be sued.

  • Privacy Statement (Score:5, Insightful)

    by colmore (56499) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:48PM (#3001663) Journal
    NO GUARANTEES

    While this Privacy Statement expresses SourceForge.net's standards for maintenance of private data, SourceForge.net is not in a position to guarantee that the standards will always be met. There may be factors beyond our control that may result in disclosure of data. As a consequence, SourceForge.net disclaims any warranties or representations relating to maintenance or nondisclosure of private information.


    Since I don't think we're dealing with an vast evil corporate conspiracy here, I don't think the proper reading of this is "these statements are not true."

    Basically they're protecting themselves against crackers. If someone steals the password list, they aren't responsible. I don't think that this means they're going lax on security or forgetting about privacy, it just means that shit happens, and they don't want to be sued.

    As to the rest of the changes: this is their perrogative. They don't have to warn you about service changes. And if that fact alone bothers you, you can take your (non-paying) business elsewhere. It's how they use this priviledge that matters, and I don't think that they are going to radically alter their service in an attempt to scam users.
  • by FreeUser (11483) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:52PM (#3001699) Homepage
    You get what you pay for after all.

    Amazing. Now I understand why the slashdot editors really appear to not "get" a lot of fundamental things, like the ongoing, direct harm the Copyright Cartels (Hollywood and the music industry in particular) are doing to free software.

    "You get what you pay for," is demonstrably a myth. (c.f. GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, non-paid sex, love be it familial or romantic, and as a counter example underscoring the very same point, Windows vis-a-vis quality, used cars, enron stock, and so on ad nauseum.). Air is the most valuable substance to any living, breathing human. Don't believe me? Try going ten minutes without it. Yet it costs nothing.

    With free software you don't "get what you pay for," you get what many thousands have contributed to a public commons to give themselves and you, with a resulting value far greater than any single enterprise could possibly offer. These contributions are often completely unrelated to any economic value as defined in the traditional market sense, and are only very indirectly related to any sort of free market or monetary value at all.

    If you don't understand this (because of your libertarian bent of capitalism ueber alles, perhaps ... and I can relate, as I have some libertarian leanings myself), then I suggest you consider, with an open mind, the implications of applying one set of assumptions (scarcity and greed driving a free, self-organizing market) vs. the actual conditions (a fundamental lack of scarcity in the electronic world) which may well make those assumptions invalid in the context in which you are trying to apply them.

    In this particular case the area is more gray ... we are dealing with an area that interfaces the (cyber)world of virtually unlimited abundance (virtually zero-cost copying) and the physical world of scarcity. It is along this interface that the most interesting problems and opportunities are going to arise (and the area the copyright cartels would be concentrating on if they had any intelligence, rather than trying to use authoritarian laws to impose their business model on a world which lacks the scarcity they require).

    I should point out that the Free Software Foundation's GNU project offers a similar service to sourceforge called Savannah [gnu.org], which I highly recommend. Will the laws of supply and demand as created out of scarcity apply, or are there enough willing donars, and enough inexpensive (or free) resources available that the laws of plenty will apply? In this gray area the answer is probably both yes, and no, depending on local circumstances and conditions.

    In any event, the notion that "you get what you pay for" has been disproven numerous times in the physical world of scarcity-driven capitalism (ask any number of people who have purchased property or used automobiles, only to have their worth drop to zero, or climb insanely, in no relation to "what they paid for"), and in the abundant sphere of free software is demonstrably inapplicable in nearly every case.
  • by warpSpeed (67927) <slashdot@fredcom.com> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:52PM (#3001701) Homepage Journal
    These changes are not draconian. What is the hubbub all about?

    1. They can henceforth change the terms without notice, just by posting the new terms on the website. (Currently they are obliged to give 15 days notice by email, a period that we are currently in for this change.)
    It is a free service... if they want to change something should they be shackled by having to email all the users to change anything?

    2. They can henceforth remove user accounts without giving a reason. (Currently they are obliged to have a reason, though the set of acceptable reasons is open-ended.)
    They avoid leagle entanglement for said free service... People abuse free systems, they need to be delt with quickly and effectivly.

    3. They're no longer obliged to make the contents of a deleted account available to its owner. (There was previously a "reasonable effort" clause to that effect.)
    The users should have local backups... this is more then resonable.

    4. They're no longer obliged to provide notice of changes to the privacy policy, unless the changes are "substantive". (Currently they are obliged to provide notice of any change.)
    Hmmm, some web notice would be nice... but again it is a free service...

    5. The privacy policy is acquiring a disclaimer that amounts to "this is not true". It actually disclaims the entire privacy policy.
    Well, if you bother to read (and comprehend) the policy you should know what you are in for, again it is a free service...

    Have you read Hotmail Terms of Use [msn.com]?
    You know they have your best interest at heart.

    ~Sean

    • 1. They can henceforth change the terms without notice, just by posting the new terms on the website. (Currently they are obliged to give 15 days notice by email, a period that we are currently in for this change.)
      It is a free service... if they want to change something should they be shackled by having to email all the users to change anything?

      I've always hated those "we can change things without any real notice" clauses. 15 days could be a bit long, i suppose... Why not 2 business days or something like that? Gives people enough time to move out if they really don't like the changes, and still allows reasonably fast changes to the policy.

      2. They can henceforth remove user accounts without giving a reason. (Currently they are obliged to have a reason, though the set of acceptable reasons is open-ended.)
      They avoid leagle entanglement for said free service... People abuse free systems, they need to be delt with quickly and effectivly.
      3. They're no longer obliged to make the contents of a deleted account available to its owner. (There was previously a "reasonable effort" clause to that effect.)

      Couldn't they still do that with having to give a reason? Hell, "abuse of site resources" is one of their explicitly listed reasons for termination. This makes me think they're going to start deleting things for reasons they don't want to be publically known...

      Ok, reading the actual terms of service, these seem to be not exactly true. Since the reasons for termination were never limited, "we don't like you" is technically a good enough reason. And they were never obligated to make the information available, they just said "We'll be nice and do it if we can without too much trouble." It's still kind of shady though...

      4. They're no longer obliged to provide notice of changes to the privacy policy, unless the changes are "substantive". (Currently they are obliged to provide notice of any change.)
      Hmmm, some web notice would be nice... but again it is a free service...

      That's no excuse for giving no notice. It would be nice to know what their lawyers (it always comes down to lawyers) consider "substantive". Fixing grammar and spelling mistakes is fine for no notice, but i'd want notice of anything that changed the actual policy.

  • by dstone (191334) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:01PM (#3001771) Homepage
    CmdrTaco wrote:
    but I also don't think it's the huge deal that others are making of it. Especially considering projects aren't paying for the free service. You get what you pay for after all.

    What the heck kind of attitude is this for the founder of a pro-Open, pro-Linux website, CmdrTaco?! I took a quick diff of the terms of use changes, and you're right, it's not a big deal. But reinforcing the myth of "you get what you pay for" doesn't help traditionally minded people embrace new paradigms such as Open and Free. Tsk tsk.
  • by JoeBuck (7947) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:06PM (#3001807) Homepage

    Yes, it's CmdrTaco's site, but it looks bad when a VA employee uses his position to put his opinion that a controversy involving his employer is a non-story in the article rather than in a comment.

    It would be better form to use a just-the-facts approach in the story itself and then post opinions as comments like every other user. Another possibility would be to have a separate "Editorials" section for staff members to give their opinions, and to have a separate news item and editorial in cases like this.

    • That's right. He has no right to express his opinion outright on his own site like that. If only he had prefaced it with some kind of disclaimer like:

      Obviously since SF is owned by the same parent company as Slashdot, I'm biased and corrupt and you should ignore my opinions on the subject, but while I don't particularly like this any more then anyone else, ...

      then it would be OK. It's almost like he thinks he has as much right as everyone else around here. Sheesh!

  • by Nelson (1275) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:38PM (#3002062)
    I've been critical of VA from the start. I've just never liked the idea of them being a big and powerful player in "Linux" and owning many of the more valuble resources. Call me a pessimist but I know what IBM, HP, Apple and Microsoft are all about, I know how they are going to react to some thigns and I can predict what they are usually going to do. VA is/was a bunch of upstarts who were too bold or foolish be told they couldn't do it and brash enough to think they could, it's a wild card, at best. Who knows what VA will do when things get tough? They've surprised me so far but I keep expecting something big and bad to happen. It's been a theme on Advogato for a while now, it would seem from there that a number of people aren't satisfied with SF.


    Let's look at this a little more objectively. Hosting kernel.org costs about $80,000 a year (Larry McVoy posted this number to lkml about a month ago) at the least. It's an ftp site. That's bandwidth, not any warm bodies doing admin, not any fancy database stuff, nothing fancy just an ftp server and a minimal web site. Sourceforge has to cost 20 times more, probably more, to run. I have no idea what the numbers are but it has a staff and a huge amount of resources to manage and keep running. Personally, I'd assume that it's in the neighborhood of $5million+ a year, that's just my half-assed guess though. That's some substantial output for most companies, at IBM you can't spend that kind of money without producing something, people notice chunks that big. At most places, that kind of funding simply isn't available for something like that. At some point the free ride has to end, or something has to come out of it, or something has to change. Even a company like MS would see $5mill on the books in red ink and not black and there would have to be some reason to justify it and goodwill towards the community might not be enough.


    Then with subjects like these, things rise up. Well they should trim dead stuff out of the tree, trimming the "dead" stuff is silly becuase it might be useful to people, that's the whole premise, if it's in use anywhere then it's not really dead. It might be dead to you and me, but that guy who is using it might want it. They should do x, y, or z to better support projects like q. They could do this or that. I think the most alarming propect is that there will be code in SF and it could be lost because of a policy change. I can get over most things, the changes to the mailing lists, and various other things they've done, it's free and you get what you pay for but a big part of the justification has been to promote interaction with developers to give VA a community they have close ties with and to promote open source software development. The idea of losing code is appauling, SF no longer serves a big part of its purpose at that point. That's what brings credibility in to question, what are they doing to prevent that from happening? Can I buy a set of DVDs that have SF backed-up on to them? Or is this it, the policy change is that there won't be any warning of future policy changes and those might cost you your code. I understand that they might have to sell stuff, or charge for services or do lot's of different things. I also understand that services like SF are prime for pirates and porn hustlers and others to use to propagate data and they need to protect themselves. It's time to look to tigris [tigris.org], Savannah [slashdot.org], and Berlio [berlios.de] more seriously.


    I wonder if there is something we could add to licenses that would prevent a place like SF from shutting down and taking your code with them.

  • by frost22 (115958) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:52PM (#3002154) Homepage
    Taco:
    I'm biased and corrupt and you should ignore my opinions on the subject,
    Amen, brother. Unfortunately, that about sums it up on this issue. --f.
  • by Chuck Chunder (21021) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @03:12PM (#3002326) Homepage Journal
    This article simply isn't complete without the standard "VA = Satan himself and I told you so first" comment from Bowie J. Poag.
  • Further proof... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by talks_to_birds (2488) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @03:27PM (#3002464) Homepage Journal
    ...that someone needs to take all the lawyers out and shoot^H^H^H^H^H rehabilitate them.

    It's the same general deal you get anywhere these days:

    • We're not responsible for nuttin..

      You can't get us for nuttin..

      We don't know nuttin, and if we did, we wouldn't admit it anyway..

      If you got it, it's ours, an' we're gonna take it no matter what you do..

    Here's a real punchline from the Privacy Statement:

    • "While this Privacy Statement expresses SourceForge.net's standards for maintenance of private data, Sourceforge.net is not in a position to guarantee that the standards will always be met..."

    uh.. then who is in a position to guarantee what Sourceforge itself has just attested to?

    No-body!

    End of discussion!

    And have a nice day!

    t_t_b

    • Re:Further proof... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by dasmegabyte (267018) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Wednesday February 13 2002, @04:42PM (#3003071) Homepage Journal
      And that's one of the problems with modern capitalism...in the odd case that you don't claim to know nothing and be irresponsible, you're inviting people to sue you. How many times have I heard in the same breath "X Co, Inc, is a huge, evil, corrupt institution with no care for its customers" and "let's sue them so we can have money?"

      I run a very small (read: profits are almost half my car payment) web hosting service under the flag of openness and freedom of content. I started it because I got upset that every single host I went with wanted to corral me into a year contract, tell me what I couldn't do or say and take credit and the ability to edit my personal thoughts and ideas. Originally, it was a co-op, and I began to take on extra users who wanted the same thing -- ownership of their work and a fair charge for the low bandwidth they were moving.

      In the past three months we've grown a dozen times larger -- so big that I no longer know every site op by name. Now, I don't want to have to force the new people to sign a TOS or a EULA. I think that posting the rules on the frontpage should be good enough for everybody. But I'm afraid. We've had a couple users ask if they could serve porn, and when I said no a few signed up anyway. I trust them (and check my logs), but if I go away on vacation and one of them starts serving nude shots of Frankie Muniz, I'm the one who gets in trouble. I'm the one who's got his name on the tax forms, and I don't intend to incorporate the business.

      So I'm stuck. I want to let users do their own thing, own their own shit, but I'm the one who's ass is on the line. If one site slips up, they all go down. Everybody loses their stuff and all the good I've tried to do, all the bright young folks I've formed relationships with are scrambling for a new host. Someday soon I'll need to call my lawyer (okay, I don't have a lawyer to call my own, I'll have to pick a name out of the phone book) and have him draw me up a plan for a TOS. It'll probably be pretty brutal. Legally, I'll have to claim responsibility or ownership over users and content so I'll have the ability to pull it if I have to. And I'll have to do the same stupid shit, bowing to C&Ds and dropping user info and so forth.

      It won't make me as a host and as a person any more of an asshole. I won't trade email addresses for cigarettes or claim rights to rkm's work [somethingpositive.net]. But I'll look just as corporate and uncaring as the rest.

      Just think about it, baby, before you hate the legalese. You can't avoid being screwed without screwing somebody on paper. At the end of the day, it all comes down to who you trust, and after these long years with Slashdot, OSDN and SourceForge, I guess I trust VA. I have to, they designed my new server!

      Shameless plug: webslum.net [webslum.net]. Say you read this post and I'll give you a free shell :)
  • by moebius_4d (26199) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @05:13PM (#3003335) Journal
    I think the main weakness of SourceForge is that it is hosted by a single entity. The tremendously valuable information hosted by freshmeat is a similar example. It does the FS/OS community no good to have the various project sources cached all over the place if we have no way to access information about the projects, including where they are, what they do, and so forth.

    How can we surmount this problem? Maybe by making a set of standards (beyond the informal ones that exist now) for how to document what your software is and where to get it. This could be a variation on the old .lsm (linux software map) files. This could be submitted to multiple places on the web. Freshmeat might parse it into their database, while metalab might just through it in the .osm directory. But at least there would be a way to track things down. Google would help a lot.

    I am concerned that a lot of good code and good projects are left to die while other people re-invent that particular wheel. Since FS/OS is based on volunteer work, we can't really afford to throw it away or waste it. I hope other people who also have ideas about this will reply to this, and perhaps we can get together a mailing list or something to brainstorm about possible solutions to this problem.
  • by Dr. Awktagon (233360) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @05:22PM (#3003409) Homepage

    They can henceforth change the terms without notice, just by posting the new terms on the website. (Currently they are obliged to give 15 days notice by email, a period that we are currently in for this change.)

    This is the part that disgusts me about "Terms of Use". Basically, they could say anything they want, and you would be bound by it, before you can even read it!

    So Tuesday, they can say they don't own the copyright in your programs, but Wednesday they can, and NOBODY WOULD KNOW until AFTER the terms went into effect.

    Yes, they have the right to put pretty much anything in their terms, BUT they should have to make a reasonable effort to inform their users of any new terms.

    Free markets work best when information is available about your choices. Saying "if you don't like it, go elsewhere" is silly if you don't know what it is exactly you just agreed to.

    There should be a consumer protection law that says, you have 30 days before new terms go into effect, no matter what. Then you would know, just have your attorney or your web-page watcher script check the terms every 30 days. But now, they can change them twice a day, or just for 5 minutes every night, or whatever, and nobody knows.

    Of course every company is completely honest and above-board and would never change their terms like that, would they??

    • Re:Alternatives (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gte910h (239582) on Wednesday February 13 2002, @01:49PM (#3001670) Homepage
      Check out savannah...here [gnu.org]. Download the software its run on. Put that on your computer. Then you have the project on your own server. That's the idea of free software.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 13 2002, @02:04PM (#3001794)
        After visitng linuxworld and drilling their sales reps we came to the conclusion that Sourceforge can't compete with free alternatives. (by 'we' I mean the software Co. I'm working for)

        Bugzilla/bonsai/tinderbox provides a more complete solution. We were even able to modify the trio to deal with java, our many different build scripts (make is rather lacking for java), and our test automation.
        What we found was that Sourceforge provided discussion groups which we got using exchange or INND, bug tracking which wasn't nearly as feature rich as bugzilla, and cvs integration which bonsai provided just as well. It was still lacking the automated builds, and by the time they got back to us after linuxworld we had allready deployed the bugzilla solution (partly thanks to some nice debian packages put together by Remi Perrot).

        One large drawback is that bonsai relies on glimpse as its fulltext indexer. Glimpse used to be free but since then has gone commercial. We were, however, able to find some old glimpse source (which may have been GPL or artistic license - perhaps we should redistribute the old code as GNUlimpse).
        We have made our own tweaks to bugzilla/tinderbox/bonsai and contributed a few of them back to the mozilla developers (in the future probably all will be recycled into the public implementation).
    • They could take your work and sell it under their own copyright.

      Umm, no. You don't sign away your copyright when you host something on Sourceforge. In many cases you don't even have the authority to do so if you wanted to. Sourceforge has the right to do whatever they want with the copy of data on their server, they can delete it and they can delete your account, but they don't own the data you stored there.

      But that's okay. "The sky is falling!" is catchier.
    • I use Savannah and it is a very slick service, well documented (as is Sourceforge), it's also nice to be able to cut time by been able to automatically apply to be a GNU project. The licensing issues are well dealt with (anything as long as its FSF approved) and any questions that I have posted have been answered in hours.

      With regards of compatibility there is an offer (when you sign up) to use your existing CVS's data on their systems. The only caveat was that they are far stricter with licensing. So if you use the Sourceforge CVS it should be easy (providing the licence is OK) to transfer to Savannah.

      You also geta homepage at: http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/yourprojectname

      Which is adminned via RSYNC or CVS over SSH.

      So almost identical to Sourceforge.

      It doesn't seem to be as fast as Sourceforge, but this is opionion and I have no metric to support this.
    • I think Rob's point is moreover that his opinion will be discounted by all anyway, so there's no point in stating that.

      *My* feeling is that this TOS change is not a substantive change. The part in which the Privacy Policy is disavowed is done specifically because *if* the site is cracked, then we're lying about protecting it - not because we're going to sell anything. I'll shoot myself in the eye before we do that.