Demise Of The Premier .NET community site 77
Seems like something has horribly gone wrong at ASPFriends.com. The site is being closed as a result of a break down in negotiations with Microsoft over support for funding this developer community forum which has over 73000 members who post over 12 million messages a month regarding MS development. The primary reason for this break down seems to be do with the contract that had to be signed to receive funding. I'm no lawyer and I've not seen the entire contract but it seems like it contains clauses which basically state "at our discretion, with 30 days notice we can terminate this contract and take ownership of your site".
Trustworthy! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Trustworthy! (Score:3, Insightful)
The ASP Friends community was a rather interesting set of email lists. I personally found them annoying, as I prefer to use forums and UseNet. Some people found them highly useful, and, for them, it is bad to see the demise.
Microsoft was entering into a business dealing to agree to fund a site (pay 100% percent of the bills). If Charles did not like the contract, he had every right to do what any business does, which is negotiate. I see no evidence that he tried.
Overall, Charles has acted like a spoiled toddler when he has not gotten his way in the past. Shutting down the site without any form of negotiation, and then posting his tantrum on the web, is just another incident. He has, fortunately, found an ally in this site, which is primarily filled with people who would love to jump on Microsoft without any evidence of any wrongdoing. I, for one, refuse to drink either kool aid.
It seems there are so many legitimate topics to bitch about Microsoft over without jumping into this PR nightmare, but maybe anything you can bitch about Microsoft about is considered a valid topic.
Now, as for the title of this article, I do not see that ASP Friends was ever the premiere
If you try and get cosy with a snake... (Score:2, Insightful)
Boohoo. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's almost as if they are completely ignorant of the fact that DEVELOPERS are the only ones keeping Microsoft in their position, so -- of *COURSE* Microsoft is going to be aggressive about controlling them.
The only way to stop MS is to just *NEVER* write code for them. Ever.
They know this
Re:Boohoo. (Score:3, Funny)
I can't believe you would question Microsoft's devotion to developers [ntk.net]...
Re:Boohoo. (Score:2)
MS love Developers like Bush likes an ass-whoopin'
Re:Boohoo. (Score:2)
Again... (Score:4, Insightful)
This kinda shit happens simply because MS is run by lawyers and marketers, each and every time MS will choose short term gain over a long term beneficial relationship. Partners, developers, customers, MS will screw you over if it means they can make a quick buck.
And I use MS products for 90% of my development, perhaps it is time to pick up some books on competitors instead...
Now we know... (Score:1, Troll)
Painful Lessons (Score:5, Insightful)
If you step out of line or play even one note off key, they kick you out of the orchestra and confiscate your instrument. Never mind that you paid for it yourself. They own it now.
I'm glad he didn't sign that contract, but I'm sad that he has to loose not only his years of work, but the motivation to support his community.
Even if it is a Microsoft community. Maybe some day he'll get into a better community with a company that will nurture his zeal.
Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess he could not see the kind of redmond actions his site is suffering right now because he must have blinded himself due to his total devotion and defense to MS products. Being the one to be hurt always make things easier to understand.
Yet, as he points out, he could go and get bought, or he could go on and continue to support his site that way, but prefers to shut it down due to ethical reason. Good man.
Second. He has built a serious community site through a lot of efforts which is also the core of the free software efforts. Apparently, redmond can cope with this kind of behavior (too independant for them, probably) despite recent speeches about community spirit.
Third, such a fine man, could be very usefull in helping some projects in getting what they lack, the kind of features that made this man stick to redmond so long. There must be something real in his praises of their products and too often, unix cultured people dont get that kind of "things".
But he still links to asp.net forums despite all they just did to him.
Well, he probably dreams in a "deus ex machina" Gates, coming down from his tower and putting things together, because he is "Doing the right thing and letting Ms know when its own employees hurt it's reputation is vital.". Yes, it must be "some employee", it can't be the compagny as a whole.
That is his flaw probably. He still dont get that what is happening to him is the spirit of redmond activity and has been the key to their success since the beginning.
Repeat after me:"extend and embrace; or strangle to death."
So we might see a redmond move to correct this situation, but it will be a one time pr move. The kind of "redmond make a deal with peru government" move.
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2)
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2)
I'm really sad about what happen to your initiative and in no way found in your story matter to rejoice.
Now that I understand that it's the people you were helping that did matter all the way to you, i would like to know what it is that you found in their products that made you make overenthusiastic comments such as "Nah I worship their products." ?
(it's a genuine question. if you don't have time to answer, don't bother, i will go and follow the links you made in your site to find elements of anwser)
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:1)
I for one can say I have benefited greatly from your site and have relied upon it heavily in the past year to get myself trained in
I do hope you consider some sort of subscription system that might help to keep the site running. However I could understand why you'd feel like chucking it in after the way you've been treated by Microsoft.
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2)
Well, come on into our community, the water's fine. Your efforts will be appreciated.
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:1)
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:1)
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2, Interesting)
Second, the ASP Friends list has helped him build his training business. While I cannot put a money value on how much his ASP Friends site has aided his business, only a fool would believe that it has had no beneficial impact. The problem with the site is it has became a sucking money hole, as it is become very popular. Because of this, Charles asked Microsoft to foot 100% of the bill and they asked for something in return for their money. Rather than negotiate, he took his case to the court of popular opinion, and there are plenty of people who would gladly take the case without all of the facts.
As for such a fine man, you obviously have not met Charles. He is prone to interrupting technical presentations to hawk books he has reviewed, as well as throw in his two cents. He is rather self-absorbed and very prone to temper tantrums. In conversations I had with him last year, he expressed complete disdain for any method of helping the community other than his lists, which I took as highly elitist. As such, I am not sure he is such an exemplary example of the open source spirit.
I do not deny the value of ASP Friends. While I personally find email lists to be annoying at times, the lists were well filtered. I am sure the lists will be missed. If he were serious about wanting to keep them up, he could have negotiated the contract details. However, I do not see that any of us that own sites DESERVE to get 100% support for nothing.
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2)
That's not what i read:
We only moved 4 million messages a month in Classic ASP but at bequest of ASP.net team we added ASP.net lists and became 12 million messages per month within 3 months of starting our first ASP.net lists. Those 12 million messages meant I got an angry phone call from my ISP tripling my rates retroactively so I was suddenly confronted with an unexpected $8,000 additional expense thanks to supporting ASP.net. So I asked for Microsoft help to avoid closing down the ASP.net Beta1 lists. I could afford the Classic Lists but not ASP.net lists alone.
more:
(I cannot comment on his ethics, as I have not dealt with him in busines
There are other ways to look at one's ethic. I try to get it through his writing on his site.
If he were serious about wanting to keep them up, he could have negotiated the contract details.
unless he has an ethical problem in being treated that way by a company he had faith in and put of lot of work to support in.
That's what ethics is about, there's a point where you stop to compromise or lose all ethics.
However, I do not see that any of us that own sites DESERVE to get 100% support for nothing.
It's not about getting anything, it's about not losing what's intimately yours.
I guess that after he realised what he could expect in terms of help and respect from a company he helped and respected a lot, he lost all envy in continuing to support them.
Or maybe does he lie in his faq? But that i don't know. Do you have any more facts that make you think so?
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:1)
Your comment: That's not what i read:
From the portion you posted: So I asked for Microsoft help to avoid closing down the ASP.net Beta1 lists.
You are mixing the bequest to add ASP.NET lists and the request for money. Read the page again, only a bit more carefully.
There are other ways to look at one's ethic. I try to get it through his writing on his site. I have personally come in contact with Charles. Many years ago, he was a very nice person to talk to. Lately, he is a very self-consumed person and not very willing to listen to criticism or alternative views. This, of course, has nothing to do with ethics, but a posted marketing spiel is not a good indicator of ethics either.
Do you have any more facts that make you think so?
The dealing with Microsoft is not really an ethics issue. FACT: Charles contacted Microsoft to fund him (which is plainly shown in the snippet you posted, and which I personally know to be true). FACT: Microsoft funded him, either partially or completely for quite some time (this is also posted on his site). FACT: Microsoft agreed to fund him further, with some provisos. FACT: Charles chose to shut down rather than accept the provisos.
It is well within his right to shut down. It is also well within his right to blast Microsoft and blame them because they did not want to continue pumping money into the site without some guarantees. I believe, however, that your real reason for jumping in and blasting my comments is a personal animosity towards Microsoft, as the snippets you publish show that Charles asked for money, and not the other way around.
I do not drink Microsoft kool-aid. There are many things that they have done that I despise. I currently make money programming for their systems, but I have architected Java solutions, as well, and will move back if my market jumps off the Microsoft bandwagon. But, most of the comments on this board show a strong bias against Microsoft, which makes Charles the hero of the hour, despite the fact that he was holding all of the cards here. That, to me, shows a lot of people in SlashDot drink anti-Microsoft kool-aid.
Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community (Score:2)
If I had been that kind of extrem, I would have rejoiced over the event. Well, I didnt.
I just saw the work of one man being hurt by that way of making busines, as long as his feelings.
I really believe we're not reading the same text:
my interpretation of the events:
he manages the asp lists.
at microsoft request he adds
bandwiths triples, isp ask to pay retroactively
he ask redmond to cover for this part of the fees
they do
suddenly he receives contract. there was never a word about it.
basicaly the said contract is arse rape.
that plus the fact that he realised that meanwhile they did no support his site with links and all.
At this point, if it wasnt an ethic problem, he would stop his
Also, maybe the real difference is that you don't believe that they could try to rip off him from his work. Look at this page:
http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/
and especially the little bit at the end:
In his words, "I still believe in MS products, but am increasingly concerned over how they are running the business side of things."
It really look like the words on the faq about Mr Carrols love of microsoft products.
I still believe that hard workers who believe in helping people, whatever their personnality is, gets better treatment in the open source community. Lower wages also.
But give me a fair open honnest microsoft any day you like. Until then, I will be against them, without fanatism and full of sympathy for those who suffer from their crushing habits.
At the risk of sounding naive (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:At the risk of sounding naive (Score:2)
Correction (Re:At the risk of sounding naive) (Score:2)
Re:At the risk of sounding naive (Score:4, Interesting)
They can certainly do it under different domain names, but the Simpson's quote "that reeks of effort" comes to mind. They are being pretty lazy in the forums and while the code and interface are whizbang the human touch and effort is missing. Stealing it means running it and they prefer the forums not email and parallel newsgroups.
Re:At the risk of sounding naive (Score:1, Insightful)
RTFA (Score:1)
The short answer is no. Since most companies that acquire AspFriends is likely to make changes to commercialize it or to make it a much worse place to get support. Because I created it in 1998 and ran it through 2002 most people would blame me for it's demise. I would rather have it close a winner now, than get acquired, ruined and then die a looser a few years later.
IOW, Caroll won't sell. As it seems he's already indicated to you:)
Re:At the risk of sounding naive (Score:2, Interesting)
it seems that the current owner owns the domain for another 2 years. This (paying the domain) is more inexpensive than actually running the web-site (as mentioned on the web-site, about 3000 usd/month).
Think thats bad? (Score:2, Informative)
I quickly got out of the beta program after that.
Sweet dreams (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, that could have worked:)
Re:Sweet dreams (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft MVPs (Score:2)
Doing tech/dev assistance has always been amorphous. You earned the respect of the community through helping alone. Trying to control the process by controlling the database that marks people as "helpful" or not is doomed to failure.
Re:Microsoft MVPs (Score:1)
Microsoft's Response (Score:2)
http://asp.net/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?ta
Re:Microsoft's Response (Score:1)
Scott Guthrie
406 posts in the forums since 6/15/2002.
16 posts in [aspngfreeforall] in whole year of 2002. Wow you and your people are really helping us thrive over here.
Rob Howard
10 posts in [aspngfreeforall] not to help but to announce
36 in [aspngcache]
733 posts in the forums since 6/8/222
Nuff said. Plus you have tons of people on the teams who NEVER POST HERE.
Re:Microsoft's Response (Score:2, Informative)
Please read this to get both sides of the story, it brings several items to light, including an overview of the purpose of the contact.
Re:Microsoft's Response (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Microsoft's Response (Score:1)
Re:Microsoft's Response (Score:1)
Re:Rand? (Score:1)
Re:Rand? (Score:1)
My experience with Ayn Rand's works is as follows:
- I read Atlas Shrugged, cover to cover. If I were in a more cynical mood I might count this as an act of willpower unlikely to be duplicated in my lifetime. The premise is intriguing, the mystery ("Who is John Galt?") somewhat captivating, but the book is repetitive to the point of being nauseating. At this point I was somewhat ambivalent about Rand's theories, though I was thoroughly convinced that Rand herself believed them with a zeal unmatched by individuals of the sane persuasion.
- I read The Fountainhead. I actually enjoyed this book, as it had a plot, likeable characters, and a somewhat moving ending. It was a trifle theoretical but nowhere near Atlas Shrugged in those terms. I would still recommend Fountainhead to others.
- I attempted to read Atlas Shrugged again, out of intellectual perversity and sheer dogged-mindedness. I made it to about page 400 that time before swearing off of Rand forever.
- I read Terry Goodkind's Faith of the Fallen. In what could only be interpreted as nature's unfathomable attempt to get me to rescind my vow never to read another Ayn Rand book, Goodkind apparently decided to rewrite Fountainhead in a medieval setting, with the theoretical baggage of Atlas thrown in for good measure. I mention this because it is symptomatic of the fervor with which Rand true believers spread their gospel. To clarify: the best-selling author of a popular fantasy series wrote an entire book which mirrors Fountainhead in all essential elements, even down to the damn statue!
What I find most distasteful about Rand's theories is the disturbing tendency on the part of her and her followers to portray disagreements as wholly fallacious, if not precisely blasphemous. There is no meeting of the minds, no dialogue with the reader, no intellectual conversation made richer and fuller by the contributions of those with different experiences and novel ideas. If you find Rand's objectivism too harsh for your tastes, her world view has one place and one place only for you: lumped in with the rest of the heretics, the outsiders, the 'looters.'My advice to you: read Fountainhead and leave it at that. Skip the religion and get the fable, and ignore those who claim you're missing out on the best part.
Many will tell you that Atlas changed their lives, or that it was the best work of literature ever created. Those people clearly did not have lives worth living before, or read very little after that phase in their lives I like to call "elementary school."
Just my $0.02. A little flamey, a little off-topic, but I hope it clarifies a few things that the other crazies replying to you will forget to mention.
It's About Who Owns Culture (Score:4, Insightful)
Companies love you to be a cheerleader for Version 1 until Version 2 comes out, then you are supposed to abandon Version 1 and embrace Version 2. Britney is out, Samantha is in. Your website must shut down. Not because you did anything wrong. They just don't need you any more. You were an asset, now your loyalty to their previous products is competition. You're in the way.
Save your loyalty and devotion for your family and friends, your ideals and your personal standards -- the parts of your culture that can't be owned by others or taken away.
Lessons learned..... (Score:2)
Thanks for doing business with Microsoft. Behavior like this is the best way to get people to convert to open source. It was in my case. I was contracted to do a database for an embassy and when I took it to the embassy, page fault errors. Called M$, got charged for what was essentially their defect.
I switched to open source, and haven't looked back and I have happier customers.
ASPNG lists (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, I've kind of been taking a back seat and watching the responses. It seems like its basically a battle between MS and Charles Carrol, the list owner. Actually, Charles hasn't really said anything as of yet since he has been in Florida, but according to Scott Guthrie (the MS founder/expert on ASP among other
A lot of people are guessing he didn't want to accept because of one of the clauses-- saying how MS gets the list if it closes. A quote from Scott's email:
Over the course of the last few days, Charles has refused to reply to
our emails, and has immediately hung up on us the two times we've been
able to get through to him on the phone.
We've had a long association with Charles and respect the work he's done
with the community, so it's distressing to the team and to me personally
that Charles has chosen this path.
What is suprising to me is that a bunch of people on the list (over 70K people total on the list) are offering to pony up $20. Kloberg Mac, apparently a close friend of Charles, has said the following:
The reason Charles hasn't responded yet is because he's currently in Florida, teaching a class.
He wanted me to let you know, that although your willingness to save AspFriends is appreciated,
*** PLEASE DO NOT SEND ANY DONATIONS AT THIS TIME ***
I'm sure he will comment in more detail later...
Regardless of what happens, this is a MAJOR PR issue for MS. I think it needs to be resolved as QUICKLY as possible. A lot of people are starting to get really peaved at MS. I question why they got involved in the first place. Even though the group is obviously benefitting MS, I really don't think Charles should have went to MS. Getting money from MS (or any company for that matter) is going to have some strings attached!
Unfortunately I cannot think of a great solution to this. I suppose paypal donations are one way, but even that means there is no guarantee that the 3K bill would be paid each month. Requiring donations or a subscription means that you lose out on a lot of the experienced techies who are contributing as well as the newbies who are looking to learn. Losing either means a critical hit (techies in terms of answering questions, newbies in terms of growing the list).
On the other hand, if MS starts a mailing list, it will be percieved as totally biased and probably have stringent rules. Example: no bashing MS products or MS people. People want "freedom of speech" and an independent list means that.
Meanwhile, I'll be watching the activity and will try to post updates to this thread as it unfolds.
Re:ASPNG lists (Score:2, Informative)
Re:ASPNG lists (Score:2)
The week I am in Tokyo I have 3 months of catching up on playing with my
kids and I don't want to review contracts or mod messages i just want to
play with my kids (not answer 30 emails a day from [AspElite] who think all
tools have to be bug free and I have to fix some urgent missing list
description or mispelled footer) and when I bring them home I want to play
with them both for many weeks I miss them so much and have evening classes
on ASP.net to teach too. This ASPFRIENDS stuff is huge task and aint
getting smaller.
It sounds like you are in definite need of a break, and I commend you on having the guts to take it. When it all comes down to it, the things that we will look back on are not our accomplishments in technology/work but where it matters.. family, friends, etc. I'll be praying for you and your family! I hope things go well from here on, and of course, thanks much for hosting the lists as long as you did. I'm definitely bummed to see them go but I'm sure there will be other ways for us ASPr's to connect in the community.
Re:ASPNG lists (Score:1)
Realnames (Score:2)
It seems, given that the only two parts of MS to actually make a profit are the parts that have the world's computers in a vice grip, and the others that can't do the same lose atrocious amounts of money, that MS is actually shit scared that the last two bastions will fall also and they will start to bleed money and eventually die as a company. I think that MS can be trusted to fuck it up and try to squeeze more control out of customers even though that is the very reason the customers are leaving in the first place.
What is this doing here? (Score:2)
Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation (Score:1)
You know, I gotta say what fun sport this actually is, seeing this played out on the lists for all to see, really is cool.
I'm on the asp lists that charles runs and I do like them.
I have noticed that since this has started with the FAQ posted to the various lists on aspfriends that charles has made no additional posts there. In fact, the entire aspelite has been rather quite. Of course, the rabble has had their day with all kinds of ideas being kicked around, I truly enjoy reading some of it, again some great sport there as well. The real work of the lists has taken a back seat lately, I guess in preparation for the final day.
Charles has had some time to post here though. I guess when aspfriends is a goner, if you're posting for prosperity, then it will need to go here for the future generations.
All I can see is that the public information is not enough to make any informed decision on what has happended.
However, it sure is good sport, I wonder how it will end.
I doubt if Scott Guthrie will respond again in public. And Charles, no doubt, has his agenda to further by doing just that, as we have seen.
You know, part of being microsoft is taking your lumps too. And there are plenty of microsoft employees who deserve public harrassment, not to mention disparaging remarks. If they don't want those types of comments posted about their employees then maybe there should be some corporate guidelines for their employees concerning customer service, in stead of some "I rule the world from Bill Gates' coat tails" 'tude; that as a paying customer, I sure as hell don't need. But I see this problem more in the field, that is consulting ranks, than persons that I have meet in Redmond.
But, you know, I would have just taken my pen, like I do with any contract, redlined the shit that didn't make any sense, initialed my changes, maybe upped the price a bit for jacking me around, and fedexed the damm thing back saying initial my changes and it's a deal. This is where I think charles has an agenda not yet played out in public. He has other reasons for shutting down the service as well. And who can blame him for that, not me.
I do look forward to the public information, or misinformation to continue.
Thanks to all parties, or litigants, or whatever the case may utimately be.
Very truly yours,
John
Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation (Score:1)
I am not stupid enough to redline or sign a contract that large without paying for professional advice.
Microsoft sent this contract at a busy time of year for me and totally by surprise (I am not at home for next 2 months and am picking up my 2.5 and 4.5 year old kids in Japan and wife and spending quality time with my kids in December I have not seen for 4 months).
Normally one signs contracts to gain benefits. The $18,000 promised if that contract is signed is given to an ISP not to me (i get $0 if the contract is signed) and benefits the 70,000 people not me. I can't really sign on behalf of the 70,000 without those people hating me (the contract for example allows MS to won all emails sent to list).
So I ain't redlining a MS contract as an amateur, I WOULD HIRE A LAWYER to revise it if I wanted to stay in December. But I see much risks in signing the contract in any form a $1k to $2k lawyer bill at lest given the complexity of the contract or a $0 bill if I don't sign and just drop out and spend time with my kids instead of a lawyer.
As a businessman I don't sign contracts unless I get something, and I don't obligate 70,000 people I don't know to terms I can't disclose automatically when they join the list. I am happy to not sign it, not revise it, and get out of helping their users in December.
Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation (Score:1)
Your point is well taken Charles. Competent Legal representation is important.
I just like to think I know what's up....
.. because, my dad's a lawyer, my godfather is a lawyer, my neighbor's a lawyer, my good friend's wife is a lawyer, I workered at a law firm for 10 years until I graduated college in computer science and in fact; I can't heave a dead cat without hitting a lawyer...
and you're right, in contract law you do need competent legal representation. And your recognition of that fact will only benefit you.
Thanks for the response and good luck to you. John
Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation (Score:1)
Yikes! (Score:2)
I am not interested in
But when I seen the side post about
I am continually surprised, if not left agast, by the continual self destructive nature, not only of the architecture and design of a lot of
Honestly, in my pursuit of companies during the past year I have started my own company with regards to software development, I always seem to find a post about MS that makes my sales job a dream.
That sales job is convincing companies to dump, what I consider "old school IT policy" and consider something I call Open Systems Engineering Best Practices. Which builds IT systems companies actually OWN THEMSELVES. Lots of companies don't even know they can do this, and are surprisingly shocked and astounded when I point this out and what it means to even HAVE an IT department in your organization with an OSE philosophy.
I think, in recent SEC filings, it is quite obvious, that MS would be in serious, if not fighting for its life, if it wasn't being protected by the US government. So far MS has been able to pay the bills in washington to the right people, so it remains a monopoly that is legal, and can fund itself in some of the worst economic times in the past 10 years in the US.
Meanwhile, I continue to Microsoft were it hurts, and more and more companies everyday are recognizing the huge Penguin ARMADA that is gathering in "Rebel Space" to take out the Microsoft Death Star.
We shall use the open source, and we shall prevail.
-Hack
This site is an eyesore (Score:1)