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Linus Comments on SCO v IBM
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Understanding is always the understanding of a smaller problem in relation to a bigger problem. -- P.D. Ouspensky
Linus says... (Score:5, Funny)
Not is. (Score:5, Funny)
It all started... (Score:5, Insightful)
It all started when an idiot went and spent a fortune the buy "the UNIX trademark" from bell labs. Then another idiot spent a huge amount of money to buy "the UNIX trademark" from the first idiot (who was now mutated to "smart guy").... You can imagine what happened. SCO is the final idiot who spent the biggest amount of money to buy "the UNIX trademark". They will always be idiots until they find someone else to sell "the UNIX trademark". But nobody wants it today. That pisses them off....
After POSIX, the "UNIX concepts" were made public, and implementing them is certainly cheeper than carring around some rusty code from 1970.
It was all wrong from the start.
Re:It all started... (Score:5, Informative)
It all started when an idiot went and spent a fortune the buy "the UNIX trademark" from bell labs. Then another idiot spent a huge amount of money to buy "the UNIX trademark" from the first idiot (who was now mutated to "smart guy")....
No no no no no no. Everyone repeat after me: "trademark != copyright."
The trademark to UNIX is owned by the Open Group. What SCO owns is the source code to the "original" AT&T UNIX (and its SVR4 descendants). All Unixes which are based on SVR4 or otherwise use code from the "original" UNIX implementation owe royalties to SCO. This includes Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, et. al. ... basically every Unixish system out there except the *BSDs (which started out using AT&T code but deliberately excised all of it and reimplemented those functions with their own code) or Linux (which never was based on AT&T to begin with).
After POSIX, the "UNIX concepts" were made public, and implementing them is certainly cheeper than carring around some rusty code from 1970.
POSIX, AFAIK, didn't make anything part of the public domain. It was just a specification for what elements an OS should contain so that it would be easy to port software between compliant operating systems ... if parts of POSIX were patented, then just including them in a spec didn't remove the patent holders' rights.
Re:It all started... (Score:4, Informative)
I believe Sun is exempt from this, with full ownership of its UNIX code, owing to a unique agreement it reached with AT&T, at the time if its transition from SunOS4 (BSD) to SunOS5 (System V). It was this agreement which produced the UNIX wars: the other UNIX vendors feared the close relationship between AT&T and Sun, and therefore founded the Open Software Foundation.
The original goal of the Open Software Foundation was to produce an open, UNIX-compatible OS based on the Mach kernel. Its name was OSF/1. In response to this, AT&T and Sun formed a consortium called UNIX International, which was to manage the UNIX standard.
Over time, the rift between OSF and UI was healed, OSF/1 reunited with UNIX and the OSF merged with X/Open to become The Open Group. It currently holds the rights to the UNIX trademark.
Re:It all started... (Score:5, Informative)
>remember Ultrix, by Sun Microsystems? There are scores of others.. This whole
>lawsuit is just stupid.. as is SCO. Although, I did enjoy using Xenix for a
>while.
You seem to be a bit confused. POSIX is the portable operating system standard. ULTRIX was the Digital version of Unix for its MIPS based line of workstations. They also sold DEC OSF/1, which was later rebranded as Digital UNIX, and then rebranded againt to Tru64 when Compaq aquired DEC.
Sun originally started selling its UNIX as SunOS, which was later rebranded as Solaris when they moved from a BSD core to a SYSV core. They also sold Interactive Unix after aquiring Interactive System's Intel UNIX business.
The "trump card" that SCO thinks it holds is that they own SVR5, which is the decendent of the original AT&T UNIX. Most commercial implementations of UNIX, aside from the BSD descendents (pretty much just BSDI at this point) contain licensed System V code (e.g. Solaris is based on SVR4, HP/UX is based on SVR3, etc). Given that the lawsuit if focusing on Linux, and Linux contains none of this copyrighted code, this is pretty much irrelevent. The entire basis of their case is alleged trade secret and contract violations, along with the unfair competition claim.
They do *not* hold the trademark as the parent claimed. The trademark was originally held by AT&T, who deeded it to USL when that was formed. Novell aquired USL and the UNIX trademark along with it, and then turned around and granted exclusive licence rights to X/Open. The trademark was later granted entirely to X/Open, and finally X/Open became part of The Open Group, who is the current trademark holder.
Re:Would it help to email to SCO & IBM... (Score:5, Insightful)
Better--
Call their sales line-- get product information, ask licensing questions, etc. Then send them a letter indicating that you cannot recommend their solutions on the basis that their licensing gives none of the benefits of open source and that the suit against IBM works against them
The crux of the article (Score:5, Informative)
[snip]
MozillaQuest Magazine: What sort of impact do you believe this sort of lawsuit filed by SCO-Caldera has on the Linux kernel, GNU/Linux, UNIX, and the Linux and free-software communities?
Linus Torvalds: None, really. The people I work with couldn't care less.
[/snip]
Re:The crux of the article (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:The crux of the article (Score:5, Funny)
MozillaQuest Magazine: What sort
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The point is something else... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The point is something else... (Score:4, Funny)
2) Microsoft sells a "Unix" called Interix.
Re:The point is something else... (Score:5, Interesting)
In my opinion, if SCO -isn't- looking for a buy-out, they're nuts. They don't have clout in the market anymore and they probably don't have the coffers needed to pursue these infringements. I'm not saying I agree with their claims, but if they are looking to get bought, it's a proven strategy to build up a portfolio of cases and then sell off to someone with more muscle.
Re:The point is something else... (Score:5, Insightful)
The goals of corporation and goals of corporation managements don't always coinside. It does not seems as if SCO is any different from Enron in this sense.
Re:The point is something else... (Score:4, Informative)
I would not completely say that yet. SCO in the US is gasping for air, but they are still quite big in Europe and Asia where they have quite a presence in the financial industry. Dell is trying to penetrate those markets with their servers and the only way that they can do that is if their servers are SCO certified.
Re:The crux of the article (Score:5, Funny)
MozillaQuest Magazine: So why are we are such a bad source for news?
Linus Torvalds: Because you're an utterly clueless one man operation that has nothing pleasant, informed or useful to say about anything. Having demonstrated woeful ignorance of your namesake Mozilla and after being shunned by that community you're now expanding your ignorance about other topics too. In fact I am surprised I am even talking to you - perhaps someone should have warned me.
Re:The crux of the article (Score:5, Interesting)
Kirby
Re:The crux of the article (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book
Re:The crux of the article (Score:3, Informative)
Re:The crux of the article (Score:5, Informative)
Andy Tanenbaum was *not* "one of the leading authorities". He was a professor of computer science teaching operating system theory, using Minix as a teaching tool.
Let's see, he is the the author of the Minix Operating System, and coauthor of the Amoeba and Paramecium operating systems. He is the author of two of the cornerstone books used in computer science classes, Computer Networks [amazon.com], and Operating Systems: Design and Implementation [amazon.com], as well as several other books [amazon.com] commonly assigned in computer science courses around the world.
Whether or not you agree with the man, you have to admit he is considered one of the leading authorities, particularly in academic computer science.
Re:The crux of the article (Score:4, Interesting)
First, Linus sometimes reverses himself. That is, he says, "I was wrong about XXXXX, and it's going into the kernel now." This happens a lot.
Second, Linus has a sense of humor about himself. He knows that he's good at what he does, but he never thinks he's the best or only.
Third, just because somebody disagrees with him, that doesn't mean that Linus calles that person an idiot. Or insult them. Or threaten to sue them, as Bernstein in particular does pretty frequently.
Linus didn't go off and found his own project because he made himself too unpleasant to the people with whom he previously worked... he did it because the work was interesting to him, and he didn't know that anybody else was doing it. (Though in fact the *BSDers were at the time.)
"Linus came forth"? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:"Linus came forth"? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think so. We should all cultivate a more detached and relaxed attitude when confronted with the writhing death pains of a Corporate Dinosaur.
Not only is SCO not going to get a penny out of IBM if this went to trial (I'd like to see the battle of the expert witnesses as to whether Linux is to Unix as a Bicycle is to a Luxury Car), but they don't intend to go to trial or to do anything else other than get IBM to put some of the money the money they would of spent on a trial directly into SCO's pocket instead.
The "Slashdot thing to do" is often to start with the wailing and gnashing of teeth on every issue. Many of those issues, like this one, that sort of thing simply isn't appropriately spent on.
Linus is a smart guy. He walks softly, but carries a big stick.
Re:"Linus came forth"? (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmmm. But in Utah? Isn't it kind of religious out there? I'm not sure I'm allowed in that state. For some reason, there's a booming voice every time I go near a church that says "You Aren't Welcome Here.".. My girlfriend won't sit anywhere near me, even at weddings, in fear of being struck by lightning.. I think Utah is one of those states that may turn itself inside out just for me attempting to cross the border. Just picture that whole Moses parting that river thing, in reverse.
Maybe it'd be fun after all..
All joking aside, it would be interesting to listen to. I want to know how SCO owns all Unix's and the idea of how they work, and even Linux, although their parent company (correct me if I got that part wrong) was selling a distribution for years..
Poor Linus though, he can't put an X on his name to name his program Linux.. I guess that means Malcom-X is just Malcom again or he owes SCO money.
Re:"Linus came forth"? (Score:4, Informative)
Caldera sold linux for years. They RENAMED themselves SCO after buying SCO. So SCO actually is the actual company that has been distributing linux for years. But mind you, not well.
Is there some rule... (Score:4, Funny)
feel free to moderate me down into oblivion
Seriously, I've never seen this except on +5 comments. Feel free to moderate me down into oblivion.
Re:Is there some rule... (Score:3, Funny)
Seriously, I've never seen this except on +5 comments. Feel free to moderate me down into oblivion.
Well, usually only two kind of comments feel the need to add that message. There's the ones which are really good but against popular opinion, hence the author thinks they will be modded down, and states that he doesn't care.
The other type of comment that gets added to are the really terrible ones. These are the ones that really didn't need any further reason to be modded down. Of course, you probably don't see these ones since they get modded below the level you browse at, more than likely. Hence, you only see it on the really insightful (yet often anti popular opinion) posts, which wind up getting modded up for their insight.
Hope that cleared things up for you. Of course, this is massively offtopic, so feel free to moderate me down into oblivion...
English blathering (Score:3, Funny)
So this is my little civil disobedience, I'm such a rebel!
-If
Of course, "his" and "hers" and "theirs" don't have apostrophes, but unfortunately just adding the apostrophe doesn't really solve that little problem. Damned if you apostrophe, and damned if you don't apostrophe!
Re:English blathering (Score:4, Funny)
Re:"Linus came forth"? (Score:4, Troll)
>so, uh, let me guess...not to hot in the verbal
>section?
I don't think you understood -- that is a verbatim quote from the actual court document. SCO has actually made that statement in their complaint, and with a straight face, filed it with a court.
Personally, I would have fired the lawyer who came up with that. (It reminds me of the time I DID fire a lawyer for saying "you don't need a nuclear bomb to blow up an anthill" in a piece of litigation for me.)
In a first draft you can say amateur crap like that, but this is a billion dollar suit. It calls for some standards.
Re:"Linus came forth"? (Score:5, Funny)
Take IBM's response to the press - IBM denied SCO's charges and said that it had no prior knowledge of the matter before being served with the lawsuit. You just know IBM's IP lawyers really wanted to say 'Get up, boy. I bet you can squeal. I bet you can squeal like a pig.' Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part...
Atypical of a dying company's last gasp... Sue 'em (Score:3, Interesting)
Why am I not surprised?
Re:Atypical of a dying company's last gasp... Sue (Score:5, Informative)
SCO is claiming special expertise on running Unix technology on *Intel* hardware. So the basis of their claim doesn't really rest with UnixWare (a failed Unix aquired from Novell), it rests on Xenix (now Open Server), a failed technology they only *licensed* from Microsoft.
They're claiming IBM, the research giant, and the mass of Open Source developers, couldn't have matched triple recursively *failed* technology of a bygone age, actually developed somewhere else in the first place.
I think ESR was giving them the benefit of the doubt and trying to be kind in his comment.
This goes way beyond "deeply stupid." It's doofey. ( My word of the year. I wish I had far less oppurtunity to overuse it)
KFG
Re:Atypical of a dying company's last gasp... Sue (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Atypical of a dying company's last gasp... Sue (Score:5, Insightful)
In the meantime, if the suit does not look to be going well for SCO no one else will touch them as a purchaser.
SCO has banked everything not on being able to sell out, but on selling out to IBM *and only IBM.*
If IBM considers the value of its relationship with the Linux community as something to maintain SCO may have simply cut its own throat with this ploy.
I believe this is what ESR was refering to when he called it "deeply stupid."
It relies on the "good will" of the party you have just attacked, a party much stronger than you are (indeed, that's part of the point of the ploy) to play the game by the rules *you* wish to play by.
Yes, I think that's deeply stupid.
KFG
Re:Atypical of a dying company's last gasp... Sue (Score:3, Funny)
Is that short for "deeply goofy"?
Who cares what Linus thinks? (Score:5, Insightful)
He has already said he does even think about patents, and that pretty much shows his attitude towards the whole thing.
Mozillaquest asking Linus for his comments were a typical waste of time, because everyone already knows what he is going to say.
Re:Who cares what Linus thinks? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who cares what Linus thinks? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Who cares what Linus thinks? (Score:5, Interesting)
It takes chutzpa for SCO to claim that it could do things with operating systems that IBM couldn't. I predict there will ultimately be a charred and smoking gash in the land where SCO now stands.
Re:uh... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Who cares what Linus thinks? (Score:3, Funny)
Does anyone else find it interesting that this argument has such a strong parallel to the argument Christians use to try to refute the possibility of evolution?
Mr. Lessig would ask Linus... (Score:5, Insightful)
The interview with Linus is quite informative and indicates that SCO will have a hard time proving their accusations. He will likely present the same answers if or when he is asked about these things in court if called as an expert witness.
Good lawyers are experts on legalities and current legal trends, not tedious subject matter.
rejoinder (Score:4, Funny)
What are you talking about (Score:5, Funny)
It's all microsofts fault!
Spin (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that CmdrTaco left out snide comments as well as these guys just proves how stupid this whole SCO thing is. Well, it doesn't really prove anything
Very interesting how he put in into perspective - basically, SCO is alleging that Linux wouldn't be enterprise class without
which it got indirectly from SCO.
Course, that's bullshit (at least point 3, which is the only one that really matters as far as I can tell - correct me if i'm wrong).
Re:Spin (Score:5, Insightful)
A brief exposition on why the points are BS...
From the complaint... (Score:5, Funny)
I think SCO missed them most important ingredient, the one they haven't got: a clue.
Re:From the complaint... (Score:5, Funny)
I think I have access to the SysV code. I also have access to VMS somewhere, and NT. Do I look at them? Why bother? All you can learn is what not to do.
Re:From the complaint... (Score:5, Insightful)
SCO has completely missed the effects of common availability of computational resources. I remember when crossing the gigaflop "barrier" was a big deal. Today it's your average laptop. 18 years ago, a UNIX source license in a business context could cost about $125,000 (as priced by a friend of mine, working on Sequent boxes). Apparently, that's when SCO executives seem to have stopped noticing the progress of technology.
The worst part of it all. (Score:3, Funny)
It is terrible that IBM stole this from SCO. That kind of coordination is extremely valuable and IBM should definately have to pay licensing fees for it.
Correct me if I'm wronge... (Score:3, Interesting)
Mirror in case it's slashdotted (Score:5, Informative)
Nearly One-Half of SCO-Caldera Income from IP Licensing and Enforcement
By Mike Angelo -- 10 March 2003 (C)
For more than a month now, SCO-Caldera has been doing some intellectual property (IP) saber-rattling and market posturing [mozillaquest.com] regarding its UNIX source code ownership and Linux. On 6 March 2003, SCO-Caldera stopped its saber-rattling and pulled the sword out of its sheath when it filed a legal action against IBM regarding [mozillaquest.com] claims involving the UNIX and Linux operating systems.
Of the 136-paragraph Complaint filed by Caldera Systems, Inc., d/b/a The SCO Group, six are particularly significant regarding the Linux kernel, and the GNU/Linux operating system, and Linux distributions.
Paragraphs 74 and 82 through 86 of SCO-Caldera's Complaint belittle and insult Linux developers, the Linux kernel, GNU/Linux, Linux distribution providers -- in essence the entire GNU/Linux and free software community.
In an e-mail discussion, we asked Linus Torvalds to comment on the Linux-related allegations SCO-Caldera makes in its Complaint against IBM. Here is Linus Torvalds' uncensored commentary.
Linus Torvalds: Ho humm..
I'm not all that excited about commenting a lot on lawsuits, since quite frankly I want to have as little as humanly possible to do with such things. At the same time I obviously do find the SCO one a bit interesting, since it's the first lawsuit ever I know of that actually involves Linux, even if Linux itself seems pretty peripheral.
Just as well, that "peripheral" thing
MozillaQuest Magazine: SCO-Caldera says in paragraph "82" that "it would be difficult or impossible for the Linux development community to create a grade of Linux adequate for enterprise use." (Without the aid of the alleged actionable conduct of IBM) Is that true?
Linus Torvalds: I don't think IBM would have started using Linux if it was true. I think IBM got serious about Linux because it noticed that it _was_ "adequate for enterprise use" from a technical perspective, but lacked a lot of things IBM could bring to the table (marketing, of course, but even more than just marketing, just the presence of IBM made Linux be taken much more seriously).
So I think IBM's involvement has been very important, but while IBM has fine engineers, the most important part by _far_ has been the "mindshare" part of it.
But what does "adequate for enterprise use" really mean? The marketing and mindshare certainly _matter_ a lot for pretty much all enterprise customers. So in _that_ sense maybe SCO is right, even though I don't think that is really what SCO _meant_.
MozillaQuest Magazine: It sounds as though this lawsuit is not a suit alleging copyright infringement, patent infringement, or trademark infringement (the standard three prongs of the intellectual property complex). Rather, it appears the Caldera v IBM action is more in the nature of a contract or tort action.
Linus Torvalds: Yeah, I don't personally think they have any IP rights on Linux, and I agree, it looks more like a suit over the contract rather than over Linux itself.
I don't think they are going to win it (very very weak arguments, since at least from a technical perspective I don't think the IBM involvement has been that significant, and SCO was losing out _long_ before IBM started pushing Linux). However, my personal (maybe overly cynical) suspicion is that even _they_ don't think they'll win the suit, and it may be nothing more than a way to force IBM back into license discussions over UNIX itself.
So I think that 100-day license revocation thing may actually be the most important part of the whole suit, and that the rest might be just the excuse. If I was SCO and looking at IBM, I'd have long since noticed that IBM has been talking about Linux taking over more and more of their current AIX usage, to potentially eventually replace it altogether.
So SCO sees IBM largely going away as a licensee in a few years - and while I certainly don't have any knowledge of how much that means for SCO, I would not be surprised if IBM licenses are quite a noticeable part of SCOs receivables.
And what would you do? You want to get IBM back to the discussion table over licensing _before_ IBM starts to consider the UNIX licenses for AIX to be no longer worth it. I think IBM has announced they'll drop AIX eventually, but I do _not_ think that IBM is willing to drop it within three months. They tend to pride themselves on supporting their existing customers.
MozillaQuest Magazine: What sort of impact do you believe this sort of lawsuit filed by SCO-Caldera has on the Linux kernel, GNU/Linux, UNIX, and the Linux and free-software communities?
Linus Torvalds: None, really. The people I work with couldn't care less.
The thrust of paragraphs 74 and 82 to 84 of SCO-Caldera's Complaint against IBM is that without the aid of the alleged actionable conduct of IBM, GNU/Linux would not be an enterprise/server grade operating system. Although in paragraph 84 of its Complaint, SCO-Caldera does not directly say it, when taken in context of the entire Complaint, SCO-Caldera is alleging that it is the alleged actionable conduct of IBM that provides items (1) through (5) set forth in paragraphs 84 to the Linux kernel, GNU/Linux, and Linux distributions.
84. Prior to IBM's involvement, Linux was the software equivalent of a bicycle. UNIX was the software equivalent of a luxury car. To make Linux of necessary quality for use by enterprise customers, it must be re-designed so that Linux also becomes the software equivalent of a luxury car. This re-design is not technologically feasible or even possible at the enterprise level without (1) a high degree of design coordination, (2) access to expensive and sophisticated design and testing equipment; (3) access to UNIX code, methods and concepts; (4) UNIX architectural experience; and (5) a very significant financial investment.
MozillaQuest Magazine: Did the Linux kernel and GNU/Linux developers and groups lack the technological capability of producing an enterprise level Linux without being bailed-out by IBM as SCO-Caldera claims?
Linus Torvalds: "Bailed-out by IBM"? Hardly. Oh, IBM has certainly been very helpful, and I like the IBM engineers I work with, but Linux was running on 16-cpu Sun sparc computers long before IBM really got into it.
In paragraph 85 of its Complaint against IBM, SCO-Caldera alleges that the Linux kernel and GNU/Linux are limited to handling a maximum of four CPUs.
85. For example, Linux is currently capable of coordinating the simultaneous performance of 4 computer processors. UNIX, on the other hand, commonly links 16 processors and can successfully link up to 32 processors for simultaneous operation. This difference in memory management performance is very significant to enterprise customers who need extremely high computing capabilities for complex tasks. The ability to accomplish this task successfully has taken AT&T, Novell and SCO at least 20 years, with access to expensive equipment for design and testing, well-trained UNIX engineers and a wealth of experience in UNIX methods and concepts.
MozillaQuest Magazine: Is this true? I thought the Linux kernel and GNU/Linux can handle 32 CPUs?
Linus Torvalds: We still claim 4-8 CPU scalability. Yeah, it sure works on bigger machines, but they are just so uncommon as to not be a big issue yet, and most of peoples' resources are certainly spent on the mass market (well, UP is the _real_ mass market, but most of the kernel people tend to be fascinated by SMP issues, so we tend to target slightly higher
Normally, we end our articles with a summary and/or conclusion. We do not do so with this article. That's because we want you to have the benefits of Linus Torvalds' comments about the SCO-Caldera v IBM lawsuit without any spin from us. You are getting this just the way Linus said it and in context. Moreover, Linus Torvalds' comments are concise, well-expressed, and to the point. The only material in this article is Linus' comments with just enough background added by us to put the comments in perspective and context with the allegations of SCO-Caldera's Complaint. Thus, Linus Torvalds' comments need no interpretation or spin from us.
Re:Mirror in case it's slashdotted (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mirror in case it's slashdotted (Score:4, Informative)
Well, duh. I seriously doubt that 18 years ago, for example, AT&T, Novell, or SCO would have had 32 processor systems around. For that matter, likely having -2- processors around would have been a miracle, although i certainly recognize that mainframes would have had that capability.. i don't think we're discussing mainframes necessarily. More on the order of personal to mini-computers, not going to the Big Iron level.
The hardware business has been commoditized (I was -given- a server box capable of handling 2-4 Pentium 3 CPU's, unfortunatly it only had one installed.. because the hard drive didn't work. *boggle*).. there have been people studying operating systems design and implementation and such for 30-40 years now in schools, with much of their learning coming from Unixes such as HP/UX, AIX, and yes... BSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and Linux. This is all just absoluetly silly.
SMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:SMP? (Score:3, Informative)
Mozillaquest? (Score:4, Insightful)
Remember that this is Mozillaquest.
Keep breathing.... KEEP BREATHING!!!
(read some of the past articles if you don't already know, or better yet... don't).
Business Plan (Score:5, Funny)
Those who can't, sue.
Dennis Ritchie Comments and Documents from (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Dennis Ritchie Comments and Documents from (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the important thing to realize is that while different open source software camps may at times compete against each other (Linux vs. BSD, Gnome vs. KDE, etc.), in the end the diversity we have within our ranks is a very powerful asset. Had the lawsuit in 1992 turned out differently, Linux would have been an unencumbered alternative that would have allowed the movement to continue forward. Likewise, in the extremely off chance that SCO did do something to encumber Linux today, the open source community has many other fine operating systems that are alternatives and which could be a basis to continue moving forward.
IMHO, an important lesson to realize from this after it finally settles down (and I have no doubt that SCO will end up appearing kind of stupid in the end) is that the diversity in open source software is the biggest benefit and allows it to overcome these kinds of things.
Re:Dennis Ritchie Comments and Documents from (Score:5, Insightful)
Diversity is good even within the Free Software world. We don't all use sendmail and that is good. We don't all use Gnome and that is good. We don't all use Mozilla, and that is good. There should be three, four, five choices for every major category of software.
A lot of people seem to think this is a bad thing. It is "confusing." I dont think so. You select by feature, fit, or whim (depending on necessity) and you limit failure by design, failure from malicious interference, and failure from excessive lawyering.
I'd like to see diversity in all infrastructure technology. (Like combining the present grid with neighborhood wind/solar energy).
Sure, I can be a loudmouthed bigot about my favorite technologies, but even though I don't happen to use FreeBSD, I am glad to know it is there (and I have an ISO of it at hand if need be).
I use more than one Linux distro at home (Debian, RedHat, and SuSE). I use OpenBSD for my firewall machine.
Diversity, redundacy. These are the basis of true reliability. Sure, Microsoft (for example) can try to secure the shit out of their next OS, but if everybody uses that one product, one mistake takes everyone out.
The *nix world hasn't (as a rule) been much more systematic about security than has Microsoft, but its diversity has been its saving grace.
The biggest failures of *nix security have occurred in those few places where one package has indeed been dominant. Sendmail is one. BIND is another (BTW, what alteratives to BIND exist for Linux and *BSD? I actually don't know and would like to know.)
Nameservers for Linux and *BSD (Score:3, Informative)
BTW, what alteratives to BIND exist for Linuxand *BSD? I actually don't know and would like to know.
There are now a number of alternative packages that may have advantages for many deployments. E.g.:
MaraDNS is a general-purpose, fast DNS server package (doing recursive, authoritative, and caching roles, plus fully supporting zone transfers):
http://www.maradns.org/ [maradns.org]
pdnsd is a small caching-only DNS server with a disk-based cache, suitable for small networks and workstations:
http://home.t-online.de/home/Moestl/ [t-online.de]
Dnsmasq is a small authoritative and caching DNS server for a group of NATted / IPmasqued machines (optionally pulling names from DHCP leases):
http://www.thekelleys.org.uk/dnsmasq/ [thekelleys.org.uk]
DNRD is a small caching-only DNS server for NAT / IPmasq networks:
http://dnrd.nevalabs.org/ [nevalabs.org]
MyDNS is a MySQL-based authoritative and caching server (no recursive service) suitable for very large sites. In such roles, it's faster and more responsive than BIND9, even though the latter uses a RAM-based cache:
http://mydns.bboy.net/ [bboy.net]
ldapdns implements the same idea, except out of an LDAP database. Again, much faster than BIND9:
http://nimh.org/code/ldapdns/ [nimh.org]
GnuDIP is an authoritative server for Dynamic DNS:
http://gnudip2.sourceforge.net/gnudip-www/ [sourceforge.net]
NSD is a high-performance authoritative-only daemon:
http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/nsd/ [nlnetlabs.nl]
PowerDNS (open source as of 2002-11-25) is an authoritative-only daemon with a modular structure supporting various back-end information stores such as SQL databases (MySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle 8i, Oracle 9i, IBM DB2, and others via ODBC), BIND zonefiles and other file formats, and LDAP directories. Supports AXFR zone transfers.
http://www.powerdns.com/products/powerdns/ [powerdns.com]
CustomDNS is a authoritative-only daemon for both static addresses and its variant form of dynamic DNS:
http://customdns.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
lbnamed is a similar authoritative-only daemon for static and dynamic information, with a load-balancing multi-machine architecture:
http://www.stanford.edu/~riepel/lbnamed/ [stanford.edu]
Posadis is another fast authoritative-only daemon:
http://posadis.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
dents is another general-purpose DNS server, but is perenially unfinished, and is probably dead, at this point:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dents/ [sourceforge.net]
Pliant DNS Server is another general-purpose DNS server, although it may not support zone transfers:
http://pliant.cx/pliant/protocol/dns/ [pliant.cx]
Yaku-NS is another small, fast general-purpose DNS server:
http://www.kyuzz.org/antirez/ens.html [kyuzz.org]
Twisted Names is an authoritative and caching DNS server, written in Python:
http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/howto/names [twistedmatrix.com]
Oak DNS Server is an authoritative and caching DNS server, supporting dynamic DNS updates and AAAA records. It's written in Python, and doesn't need to run privileged:
http://www.digitallumber.com/oak [digitallumber.com]
dnsjava is a minimal, authoritative-only server, a resolver library, and a set of DNS utilities, all written in Java:
http://www.xbill.org/dnsjava/ [xbill.org]
Related:
FireDNS is a client library for DNS requests, with emphasis on speed and asynchronous processing. Written in C, and has low-timeout blocking functions. Can be used to relace standard libc resolver library functions like getbyhostname with much faster equivalent code:
http://ares.penguinhosting.net/~ian/ [penguinhosting.net]
GNU adns is a resolver library for C (and C++) programs, and a collection of useful DNS resolver utilities:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ian/adns/ [greenend.org.uk]
Proprietary packages include:
UltraDNS (UltraDNS Corporation)
djbdns/tinydns
ATLAS (Verisign)
BINDPlus (Information Network Eng. Group, Inc.)
Global Name Service (Nominum, Inc.)
NeDNS (Neteka, Inc.)
I maintain this list at http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/dns-servers [linuxmafia.com]
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
Re:Nameservers for Linux and *BSD (Score:4, Informative)
It's actually a group of programs: a caching nameserver "dnscache", a non-recursive nameserver "tinydns", a zone-transfer-handling program "axfrdns", reverse DNS wall "walldns" and some rbldns thing.
I used to run various mixes of the above on a few boxes at my last job. Nice software but read the fine instructions: tinydns is very different to Bind wrt administration.
Cheers
Stor
Re:Dennis Ritchie Comments and Documents from (Score:5, Interesting)
It's also one of the many reasons my desktop doesn't get those evil bugs that seem to plague the "feedlot" computers that run Windows.
Think of my boxen here as "free range".....
Fear (Score:4, Interesting)
What I fear is that a way to win the case could be IBM showing some hidden card in their software patents pool. What about something generic enough to say "I own the patents on multitasking"? or concurrent file access, or even the "while" loop, something in some way that disables SCO claims but puts on the table something big enough to be considered a threat to all the industry. Is like using atomic bombs in a war, after one of the parts uses one, all the others feel validated to do the same and we all lose.
Ho Hummm.... (Score:3, Insightful)
He basically said what everyone else knows, SCO is going to hell in a hand basket and in desperation is trying to suck more money out of IBM. The bullshit claims about linux are nothing more than that, bullshit.
Ho hummm...
Loud-mouthed weasel! (Score:4, Funny)
You'd think the guy INVENTED Linux or something like that. What a jerk!
(Yes, it's carcasm. Calm the f**k down!)
Re:Loud-mouthed weasel! (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux was a pun on Linix and Linus
and
Linix is short for Linus's Minix
SCO asserted in the suit that
Linux is short for Linus + Unix.
Obviously they know the origin of the name better
(and of course Linus's version has newsgroup postings backing it up that only shows that deja/google is in on the conspiracy to defraud SCO).
This is important for SCO since they have 0 rights over Minix.
Re:Loud-mouthed weasel! (Score:3, Interesting)
SCO asserted in the suit that
Linux is short for Linus + Unix.
There wouldn't have that much trouble if he's still naming it freax [google.com]
A Bicycle?!?? (Score:5, Interesting)
A bicycle??!? Ok, a free bicycle...that seats as many as a luxury car, on just as comfortable seats, and has the same horsepower as the luxury car, and that comes complete with design schematics and a suite of tools that allow you to build more "bicycles", oh and you can give them away to your friends.
Oh, and now nobody is really interested in luxury cars anymore... maybe that's that's what SCO is so mad about.
--
Was it the sheep climbing onto the altar, or the cattle lowing to be slain,
or the Son of God hanging dead and bloodied on a cross that told me this was a world condemnded, but loved and bought with blood.
Economic Perspective (Score:4, Interesting)
Just took a look at a financial site and noticed that dear old SCO/Caldera appears to have a market cap of $32.9 million today. As such, I wonder, what will be the total cost to IBM to properly defend themselves in this suit, plus the amount that they spend on "licensing" Unix from SCO? At least $32.9M perhaps? Maybe more...
Seems to me that the logical step for IBM now is to settle this suit by simply acquiring the plaintiff. Even before this suit was filed, it kinda made sense for quite a few reasons:
MozillaQuest? (Score:4, Insightful)
or maybe they intended the page to have a 3-inch margin?
Re:MozillaQuest? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:MozillaQuest? (Score:3, Informative)
Same here...though I learn quick (1 article was enough). With a track record like that, I'll keep clear of them and I advise others to do the same.
We have enough sensationalism to wade through already, no point in paying attention to the obvious trolls.
If MozillaQuest wants to change that opinion, they (he?) will have to stay "clean" for a year or more. Do something positive...not that that will make me trust them, but maybe the negitive reaction won't be as strong.
Face it...they #ed up.
What IBM should do (Score:4, Interesting)
Premium to acquire (Score:5, Insightful)
If IBM made a takeover offer now, the market would probably assume that they fear losing the lawsuit, and that would increase SCO's value way above its current market capitalization, to somewhere much closer to a billion dollars(maybe more-they could probably go after several other big Linux-supporting IT firms).
Given that the evidence behind the claim appears to be very, very shaky, and the stakes are high, it would seem to be worth IBM's while to fight this one out in the courts for a while. If they win, they can *then* purchase SCO's IP for a song, far less than even the 25 million of the current market cap :)
And Lo..... (Score:5, Funny)
"Be Not Afraid My Children, For I Have Busted Them Gorts Up."
Amen
Btw, as I noticed the site had been slashdotted, a thought occured to me. When this happens to a site, does anyone else sit back and imagine a poor, defenseless server shrieking its last, dying breath, before being blown through the stratosphere while melting off slag? No. K.
Re:And Lo..... (Score:5, Funny)
Heh. I imagine a CAT5 cable glowing a bright cherry red, and a server actually spitting out the connector from the RJ45 plug holding that cable.
The NOC operator plugs it back in, and actually hears "PPPTTTTUI!!!" as it's spat back out again...
Wash, Rinse, Repeat.
Soko
When The Smoke Clears (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, IBM has done a world of good for Linux. My favorite commercial remain's IBM's basketball team ad that featured the Chris Mullin wannabe wearing number 12, and the team owners discussing his role on the team.
"How can we get him to work for peanuts?"
"Because he loves the game..."
That's exactly what Linux needed - to get it's name out beyond our little Geeks-Only circle to the masses, both Corporations and the Average Joe/Jane. Now, how did that harm Linux or Linux development? How did that muddy the waters? If you ask me, it rocked the boat in a good way.
Linux has grown by leaps and bounds, from a grassroots OS to a viable option for both business and home use (more the former then the latter). This lawsuit serves no real purpose, IMO. Honestly, I'll just bet that it's an attempt by a faltering SCO to steal some of the thunder that IBM has built for Linux. They just want a piece of the pie.
Final Prediction: SCO's complaint will be thrown out, and Linux will continue moving forward, with or without them.
IBM is going to fight... (Score:5, Informative)
I type this every time.
Re:IBM is going to fight... (Score:3, Interesting)
You knew this was going to happen. Ever since SCO announced this lawsuit, I was just waiting for IBM to come in and take them out. You know, I almost feel bad for SCO. Almost.
Re:IBM is going to fight... (Score:4, Funny)
You knew this was going to happen. Ever since SCO announced this lawsuit, I was just waiting for IBM to come in and take them out. You know, I almost feel bad for SCO. Almost.
This is the first time I've cheered for IBM since, well, um, since.....
This is the first time I've cheered for IBM!
Obligitory Microsoft BitchSlap... (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, you mean like Microsoft server products?
Read the SCO document (Score:5, Informative)
Concerning the few specific examples SCO listed in their court filing, the Omni print driver and JFS appeared in OS/2 long before Linux. Warp 3 and Warp 4 Server respectively. JFS appeared in AIX first but was never the property of UNIX.
Per the SCO view, with project Monterey IBM gave away the keys to the UNIX kingdom to Linux.
I'm sorry, but Monterey was annouced in October 1998. Well after Linux was ready for "prime time". I still have servers to prove so. Bicycle my ass.
Sorry, end rant. Gulp Beer,
Enjoy.
Well, this IS Santa Cruz (Score:4, Funny)
While I was at the University, some nutcase brought a $1 Trillion lawsuit against UC Santa Cruz for screwing up his brain with government mind probes.
He lost, quickly, but oh how I feel sorry for the clerk that had to deal with that one.
I'm not a big fan of IBM either... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's easy to look at IBM as a "the good guy" and forget all the bad things they stand for too!
In Europe there is currently a big fight about software patents and who do you think is a big supporter of them?
Here is a quote:
IBM's patent department is actively lobbying Europe to legalise software patents. They have invested millions in fighting example cases to leading European lawcourts such as the EPO's Technical Boards of Appeal and the German Federal Court in order to soften and eventually remove European restrictions on patenting software. They have also threatened European politicians that IBM might close down local facilities if software patents are not legalised in Europe. IBM has also prevented the US government from conducting studies on the value of software patents for the national economy. In the wake of the Opensource hype, IBM's rhetoric has become relatively moderate, but nonetheless it is supported by real pressure. IBM has acquired approximately 1000 European software patents whose legal status is currently unclear. Given the great number of software patents in IBM's hands, IBM is one of the few software companies who may have a genuine interest in software patentability. Once software patents become assertable in Europe, an IBM tax of several hundered million EUR may be levied on European software companies.
Link [ffii.org]
Now, what is the biggest threat to Linux? SCO or software patents?
Besides that, I find SCO's suit very stupid - the only winner in this is going to be the laywers.
I Appreciated... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I Appreciated... (Score:4, Informative)
The bicycle was MS-DOS, wasn't it? (Score:4, Informative)
The luxury car was the Mac,
BeOS was the batmobile,
and Linux was the Tank.
I think that was how Neal Stephenson wrote it in "In The Beginning Was The Command Line" anyway.
Re:The bicycle was MS-DOS, wasn't it? (Score:3, Informative)
Off the top of my head, Windows was a station wagon.
Re:The bicycle was MS-DOS, Winows 3.1.... (Score:3, Funny)
Let SCO Know (Score:4, Informative)
1-888-465-4689
1-800-726-8649 (Support)
801-765-1313 (FAX)
Or submit an email on their webform HERE [sco.com]
Or if you perfer the personal touch you might want to BCC these people:
jant@sco.com, rr@sco.com, sco@schwartz-pr.com, andrewk@sco.com, anz_info@sco.com, rhondap@sco.com, bstowell@sco.com, skunkware@sco.com, jkj@sco.com, patrickm@sco.com, phatch@sco.com, polska@caldera.com, louisi@sco.com, murray@sco.com, maindesk@sco.com, rogerv@sco.com, alf@sco.com, asirotin@caldera.com, alee@sco.com, rickpo@sco.com, kathyp@sco.com, deanr@sco.com, evanh@caldera.com, jls@sco.com, dfp@caldera.com, carlsa@sco.com, kieramy@caldera.com, belal@caldera.com, rhondap@caldera.com, jlw@caldera.com, bobs@caldera.com, petrs@caldera.com, robertl@caldera.com, jgale@caldera.com, tim.rose@caldera.com, wynnw@caldera.com, tbird@caldera.com, andyb@caldera.com
Much ado about nothing (Score:4, Funny)
When SCO went bad (a memoir) (Score:5, Informative)
Kids, the company that filed this lawsuit is not SCO.
Engineers at SCO were bolting together PC based UNIXes back before Linus got started. From the late 1980's, they inherited Xenix -- a descendant of AT&T System 7. In 1988 they bought the rights to AT&T SVR3.2 (for an eye-watering sum -- in 1994, each box SCO sold was encumbered with about $200 in royalty payments to other companies). By 1992, SCO UNIX 3.2.4 was a cash cow, and they needed something new.
I'd rate the rot as having set in by late 1991. Before then, SCO was an exceedingly cool place to work -- one of the early UNIX start-ups, SCO was the outfit with the hot tub in the courtyard of the original company offices and the source of numerous interesting legends. There was a lot of cross-fertilization with SGI and Sun at the engineering level back in the late 80's, and some of that survived into the 1990's. But the ACE Initiative killed it dead -- led to a 15% downsizing in 1991, when SCO was forced to admit that it couldn't market Open Desktop against Windows and hope to win. Then there was a string of bad decisions that effectively doomed the company to ossification and slow decline.
First there was the decision to build OpenServer in the first place. Then when SVR4 appeared to be making ground and SVR4.2 (UnixWare 1) came out, there was IIRC a quiet attempt to clone the SVR4 kernel. (The AT&T copyright declarations were retained in the headers, but by 1995 SCO's main product bore about the same relationship to SVR3.2 that a heavily customized rice burner bears to a showroom model.)
But SCO was, at this point, still a real software company. The UNIX dev team had more than 200 engineers working in it. Then the rot set in for real ...
(Historical aside: I first met Linux in 1993, as the system a bunch of SCO's engineers were running on their home machines. But when I left in early 1995, there was an attitude of complete denial in SCO's management -- Linux was a toy system that could never be relevant.)
Anyway. Why did I leave?
The main warning to me that the company was probably not a good long term career bet happened three months ahead of the functional freeze on OpenServer. One lunchtime managers came around our cubicle farm and pitch-forked us into coaches, drove us for two hours around the M25 motorway, and dragged us into a hotel at Heathrow where we were given glasses of grape juice and ushered into a theatre. The lights dimmed, the sound system came up playing "Things Can Only Get Better" (gack!) and the board of directors ran on stage punching their air. The occasion? It was to announce the retirement of the CEO and his replacement by the CFO (yes, the head bean counter). Said CFO promised to grow SCO's revenue base from $200M/year (in 1995) to $1Bn/year by 2000. I took one look at this stage, considered the Linux box (1.2 kernel) back home, and went back to my cubicle and started updating my resume.
There's a point to this long, discursive ramble. After I left SCO, I kept an eye on it. Sales didn't do well, although the Tarantella middleware product -- Doug Michel's pet, after the board panicked, kicked out the accountant, and invited him back -- did okay. The UNIX dev team languished, became an appendix to HP and IBM with Monterey, and in the end was downsized repeatedly until it no longer existed. Finally, SCO split in two.
The important corporate bit now follows. SCO had two arms; the Tarantella middleware arm, which was doing okay, and the UNIX arm, which was in a death-spiral. As I understand it, SCO Inc sold the UNIX arm to Caldera (then flush with IPO dollars), renamed itself to Tarantella Inc, and is presumably doing okay, albeit as a smaller software company in a different field. Caldera retained some of SCO's UNIX marketing and sales staff, but basically treated SCO's software as a cash cow. Caldera were set up with lots of money by Ray Noorda, but don't seem to have had a clue how to sell software. And the company now known as SCO is actually Caldera.
So what's going on?
Caldera has always been a money hole. Caldera peaked at something like 4% of the market for shrinkwrapped Linux distros, and never quite seemed to get the engineering side together. While Redhat's contribution is well-known, and SuSE have done a lot of solid engineering work (much of which is GPL'd -- the device drivers, for example -- rather than the much-more-visible and proprietary admin GUI), who remembers what Caldera tried to add to the community? (Yes, they tried to build yet another admin front end -- in the end, nobody else bothered using it.) Caldera basically targeted the commercial market before it was ready to buy Linux. Then they bought a sadly run-down product from SCO, and failed to promote it effectively. That's because Caldera still think they're selling software licences, rather than support and services. Now nobody wants to buy their licences (when they can pick up something equivalent for free) they're trying to attach a cost to the free stuff.
It's somewhat sad that SCO's name is being dragged through the mud this way; it feels like someone I knew who's been dead for years just clawed their way out of the graveyard mud and began shambling around town looking for brains to chow down on.
HOW-TO: SCO - Linux migration (Score:3, Interesting)
* SCO to Linux Conversion book,
* SCO to Linux HOW-TO,
* SCO to Linux Migration Case Histories,
and start sourceforge site with all necesery scripts, etc?
Re:Should IBM buy SCO? (Score:3, Insightful)
SCO are like microsoft: a company trying to make money out of middleware. It seemed a good idea when everyone was prepared to pay for middleware, but now that's just, well, silly. Linux, Apache and to an extent the OSS Java projects (apache, jboss and sforge hosted) have helped reduce the value of middleware. Which leaves cash for the hardware vendors and the consultants. Which is where IBM fits in.
Re:A Question (Score:5, Informative)
Hope that clears things up.
Re:I told you so. (Score:5, Interesting)
They already have enough of a patent portfolio to make the computing industry look like Kuwait after Iraq got through with it. However, IBM has as much to lose from such a firestorm as anyone else.
Fear the man who has nothing to lose. That man is SCO.
Re:Ho Hum... (Score:3, Informative)
For those of you wondering, that's a Vonnegut reference. Surprising that Linus would know it, I don't know many europeans who read/know Vonnegut.
Maybe he read AA Milne when he was a kid, since that's obviously where Vonnegut got it? I'm sorry, the only Winnie the Pooh you've ever heard of was Disney's mutilation? Ho Hum...