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Tom's Hardware Looks At WinFS

Posted by timothy on Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:35 PM
from the straight-to-the-nsa dept.
Alizarin Erythrosin writes "Tom's Hardware Guide has an article about the new WinFS file system. The article talks first about some of the problems and advantages with FAT[16|32] and NTFS, then talks briefly about WinFS. Here is the summary: 'Microsoft is breaking new ground with Longhorn, successor to XP. The upcoming WinFS file system will be the first to be context-dependent, and promises to make long search times and wasted memory a thing of the past. Today, THG compares it to FAT and NTFS.' Personally, I still have reservations about using a relational database to keep track of files. Unless they can keep the overhead to a minimum, I can't see it being as efficient as a file system should be."
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  • db filesystem (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Horny Smurf (590916) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:41PM (#6229928) Journal
    Personally, I still have reservations about using a relational database to keep track of files.

    BeOS used indexing for certain attributes, and it is GREAT. Maybe someone is just sour that linux didn't do it first?

    • Re:db filesystem (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Osty (16825) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:44PM (#6229959) Homepage

      BeOS used indexing for certain attributes, and it is GREAT. Maybe someone is just sour that linux didn't do it first?

      I gathered that the quote was alluding to the fact that while the BFS did initially use a full relational database backend, it performed very poorly. Be replaced the backend with a more conventional one, but kept the SQL-like interface to it. It increased performance, but just wasn't quite as cool anymore. Maybe now that PCs have increased in power by several magnitudes since Be last tried this, Microsoft may actually be able to pull it off.

          • Re:db filesystem (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Jon Peterson (1443) <jon@Nospam.snowdrift.org> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @06:51AM (#6231770) Homepage
            That's a very small amount of metadata. Let's say I've got a picture of mountain that has been digitised and sits on my computer. Here's some meta data I want to store against it:

            a) I want to store that it's a jpg file. I am Japanese and see no reason why the file type should be indicated by a small dot shape followed by three symbols left over from the roman empire that stand for some words in a language I don't speak. File name extensions are very archaic technology.

            b) I want to record when I took the photograph that this picture represents.

            c) I want to record that this photograph is going in my family album

            d) I want to record that this is an 'outdoor' photograph

            e) I want to record that this photograph is of Mount Fuji

            f) I want to record that this particular file is the high-resolution version, suitable for output onto my photo-printer.

            g) get the point? I could have a lots of symlinks of this file to folders called 'my photos' and 'outdoor photos' and 'photos taken in July' but that would be a stupid ugly hack. I could call my file:

            mount_fuji_july-hi_res-outdoor.jpg

            but that would be even more stupid.

            Now, at this point someone says "well, if you want all that then just buy a content-management application that sits ontop of the OS and lets you catalog all your stuff."

            I think MS has realised that pretty much every file _should_ be in a content management system of some kind. They are simply adding a lightweight CMS to the OS, which seems perfectly sensible to me. That way, other applications can make use of the meta-data the CMS holds. The file open dialogue on all windows apps will, instead of a directory browser have the ability to query the CMS for, say 'most recent versions of my hi res outdoor photos' which seems good to me.

            I never fail to be baffled at the degree of inertia in the IT world. I sometimes thing every computer person thinks technology should be frozen at whatever point they got tired of learning new stuff. "File name extensions and symbolic links were good enough for me lad!" It's a weird attitude.

  • SCO (Score:5, Funny)

    by Michael Crutcher (631990) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:41PM (#6229934)
    Wasn't this supposed to be an SCO story? We're falling behind our quota today.
  • by mao che minh (611166) * on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:42PM (#6229937) Journal
    It sounds like Win FS will operate a lot like a completely closed ReiserFS. Like the author (and probably many here) I don't like the idea of using a relational database as a FS very much. ext2 might be a bitch to bring up after a crash, but I'll be damned if it isn't stable and well documented. Imagine how well refined ext3 will be in another 12 months.

    In any event, Microsoft still has a few years to refine this "Future Storage" file system, so all judgements concerning it's effectiveness are a bit premature on some levels. Then again, it's always good to start planning as early as possible - especially when you consider that it may be introduced into Windows Server 2003 some time during the next 12-18 months. For now, all we can base judegement off of is Microsoft marketing hype and comparisons to existing file systems that operate in a similar way.

    • by idiotnot (302133) * <sean@757.org> on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:46PM (#6229984) Journal
      They mentioned the problems that occurred when moving a volume from one machine to another. Something like this sounds even more risky if there's a problem. With a FAT or NTFS partition, there are many programs that can at least read the partition if the system gets farked to an unbootable state. How will this work with a DB? Furthermore, will you have to have a full OS up and running to be able to query and get data out of the DB?
    • by cookd (72933) <douglascook@junGINSBERGo.com minus poet> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:31AM (#6230919) Homepage Journal
      I think you miss the point of WinFS. It is actually a layer abover NTFS, so the actual files will still be stored the same way they are presently (and NTFS is pretty good about reliability). NTFS is already a lot like ReiserFS even without WinFS.

      What WinFS adds is more powerful indexing, not a new storage system. Whenever you add or modify a file, WinFS adds the file's attributes to its indexes. The attributes stored are customizable, and vary depending on file type (MP3s have their ID3 info indexed, etc.). For example: somerwhere on my 120 GB disk I have a file named "code.txt" but it will take 10 minutes to find it by scanning the directory structure. Instead, I do a "SELECT Path FROM Files WHERE Filename='code.txt'" and WinFS comes up with the answer right away. If I have full text indexing, I could search for a specific phrase. Even more useful, you don't have to make playlists anymore. Just put all of your MP3s in the same directory, and when you want to hear all of your Bon Jovi, just perform the appropriate query. (Obviously you don't have to know SQL to make this useful.)

      Some of this is already present in a more limited form in Unix. For example, I still can't figure out why Windows doesn't have something like the LOCATE database that is set up by default on my FreeBSD box. But WinFS will blow LOCATE away (update is real time, not daily, and it has much more than just the file name).

      However, from what I've heard, so far it is a bit of a dog performance-wise. I hope it gets up to speed by ship time... At least it can be turned off if you can't take the perf hit.
      • by ComputerSlicer23 (516509) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:40AM (#6230718)
        Hmmm, several things.

        First, the async, means that not all reads and writes are syncronous which is an incredibly good thing for speed. Try putting your UFS/FFS filesystem into fully sync mode and then talk about performance, I'm willing to bet that UFS/FFS isn't sync by default either. However, calling fsync in the mail server (normally sendmail) in Linux will actually make it sync before returning. So no worries about RFC 1123. It's the SMTP server's job to ensure that it tells the filesystem, make sure the bits are on the disk. If Linux didn't have the ability to ensure bits where actually on the disk nobody would use it. That's why in Moshe Bar's series comparing Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X, he always said he recompiled after removing the fsync calls, otherwise you just compared how fast the disks in each system were.

        For goodness sakes, Oracle ships on Linux, if Linux couldn't get the bits on the disk Oracle would have never ported to it. Not a chance. If Linux tells you the bits are on the disk, they are on the disk in my experience.

        I've heard of people losing UFS filesystems while running them under NFS, or losing them due to any number of naferious VM race conditions. So what? Welcome to the real world, people lose data, buy a tape drive, make backups. Knew a guy who got really good at rebuilding filesystems by using dd on Solaris to recover email for customers.

        Oh, and as I recall, async actually affects directories more then files, if you put the sync modifier on the filesystem, it only affects directories, not the file data for ext2/3. In ext3, directory writes are always journaled as I recall, so it shouldn't make much difference.

        Now, from what I've heard of Linux and FreeBSD, is that until the late 2.2.X and early 2.4.X, there we're certain jobs Linux couldn't do like run big Usenet News services, or really disk intensive applications they the filesystem buffering was really hard to get right, and might cause corruption. The guy who ran a local ISP always said FreeBSD never did that when he was running the Usenet server on it, but Linux did with some regularity.

        ext2 hasn't lot any data of mine in my 7 years of using Linux, including running a 120GB Oracle Database for the past 30 months. Ext3's never lost any data since I started using it. I've lost disk drives, I've lost mirrors, I've lost files, never lost a complete ext2 filesystem unless the disk just stopped spinning. Lost a couple of ReiserFS filesystems after installing RedHat7.0. Never tried most of the other journalling filesystems.

        Kirby

        • by lpontiac (173839) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:20AM (#6230884)
          Simple, none of the *nix filesystems out there support the Windows security model.

          Plenty of filesystems are out there that do ACLs. FreeBSD's UFS2 does, I'm pretty sure SGI's XFS and IBM's JFS do also.

  • by Zork the Almighty (599344) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:42PM (#6229944) Journal
    This article is bullshit. There isn't a shred of new information in it. It's like watching CNN.
    • by Zork the Almighty (599344) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:52PM (#6230032) Journal
      Hey did the person who modded me "Troll" READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE ? DID YOU ? Read it. It's 6 pages of how FAT and NTFS work, along with the classic line that VFAT "was the first system that could write long file names". The LAST PAGE is the only page that talks about WinFS. It's titled "Conclusion: WinFS - The Future". It regurgitates that WinFS is based on the upcoming file system for SQL server, which is *modelled on* a relational database, and gives all the usual hype about how you'll be able to search by content, blah blah. There is not a shred of any information, let alone anything new. The whole fucking article is filler.
      • by hayden (9724) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:19AM (#6230624)
        It's every slashdotters dream to get a "Score:5 Troll" post.
      • by doorbot.com (184378) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:33AM (#6230689) Journal
        Hey did the person who modded me "Troll" READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE ? DID YOU ? Read it. ... The whole fucking article is filler.

        Tom's Hardware must have degenerated while I wasn't looking. The articles used to be full of detail, two printed pages long per "digital article page" (what you see on the screen ;)). Now it looks like the two paragraphs per "article page" are just used to keep the ads from bumping into each other. The whole article could've fit on one page, but I guess that doesn't get very many banner impressions when you know that Slashdot will link to your story, no matter how high the "filler" ratio.
      • by Jugalator (259273) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:49AM (#6230755) Journal
        Also, WinFS is no file system like FAT and NTFS. It's just a service running on top of NTFS.

        It's really funny how they try to compare it with a file system, since they're just looking at NTFS with a layer giving the user an easier time to do certain things.
    • by sprag (38460) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:55PM (#6230061)
      Hear hear! I paged through the whole thing hoping to find some _actual_ information, but was really disappointed on page 6 which was basically the summary over again.
    • by more fool you (549433) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:05AM (#6230141) Journal
      Welcome to the marketing revolution. A 6-page ad, made mostly of smaller ads. Why do I suddenly have the urge to purchase Longhorn & more memory?
  • by xWeston (577162) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:49PM (#6230007)
    As far as i was concerned, WinFS was not actually a real file system but something that just runs on type of an NTFS filesystem.

    This was actually confirmed at WinHEC:

    "Microsoft has scaled back its 'Big Bang', and its Future Storage initiative will build on, rather than supersede the NTFS file system, when the next version of Windows 'Longhorn' appears in 2005."

    "WinFS is not a file system

    NTFS will be the only supported file system in Longhorn, from a setup and deployment standpoint, though the OS will, of course, continue to support legacy file systems like FAT and FAT32 for dual-boot and upgrade purposes. The oft-misunderstood Windows Future Storage (WinFS), which will include technology from the "Yukon" release of SQL Server, is not a file system, Mark Myers told me. Instead, WinFS is a service that runs on top of--and requires--NTFS. "WinFS sits on top of NTFS," he said. "It sits on top of the file system. NTFS will be a requirement."

    Interestingly, when WinFS is enabled, file letters are hidden from the end user, though they're still lurking there under the covers for compatibility with legacy applications. This reminds of when Microsoft added long file name (LFN) support in Windows 95, but kept using short (8.3) file names under the covers so 16-bit applications would still work. Expect this to be the first step toward the wholesale elimination of drive letters in a future Windows version."
  • Terrible article (Score:5, Informative)

    by dbarclay10 (70443) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:59PM (#6230094)
    This article is tripe.

    The closest it gets to examining the (possible!) new Windows filesystem is calling it a relational database, and going on for a bit about how paths (ie: directory structures) will be irrelevant. Oh, and yeah, the closest thing he found to the implementation was called "winfs.exe" and did nothing but produce errors.

    The bulk of the article is a (poor) attempt at explaining filesystems in general, and FAT and NTFS in particular. However, it gets a number of things wrong and - at best - garbles a lot of things. If you already know what he's trying to say, you *may* be able to pick out truths, but if you don't you'll walk away with misinformation.

    I would suggest instead perusing arstechnica.com and aceshardware.com. I don't know if they've done any filesystem stuff, but if they have it'll be of reasonable quality.
  • Oh so informative! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BasharTeg (71923) on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:59PM (#6230095) Homepage
    I read this article hoping for some real information on the WinFS file system, and instead I got an amature's review of Microsoft file systems I grew up with.

    "There has been much speculation"

    Uh huh.

    "Win FS is modeled on the file system of the coming SQL server"

    Uh huh.

    "In its latest build (M4), Longhorn contains few hints of the technology's imminent implementation."

    Uh huh. You're saying you don't know anything, yeah, I'm getting that part.

    "One of those is more than 20 MB in size and bears the name winfs.exe."

    Neat.

    "In the end, Win FS will probably emerge as an optional file system beside FAT and NTFS. It's also possible that Win FS will supersede its predecessors, however."

    So in the end, it'll be A... but it is also possible it'll be B. I see.

    "That would most likely produce problems for multi-boot systems"

    An astounding feat of logic Mr. Spock!

    This is the most uninformative article I've ever had the displeasure of reading on Tom's Hardware. These people know exactly nothing more about WinFS than any of the rest of us have heard in rumors and vague press releases.
  • My turn (Score:5, Insightful)

    by poptones (653660) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:03AM (#6230128) Journal
    to say how much this article sucks. I should have known when I saw "Tom's" that it would be nothing but a few pages of useless drivel slapped into a directory as an excuse to sell ads, but I thought because this was a /. "cover story" it might be worth checking out.

    Looks like I was wrong - or, actually, right all along. Musta been a slow news day?

  • by Gldm (600518) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:04AM (#6230132)
    It's really irritating to have a RAID that gets crippled to 5-10MB/sec when on other OS and FS combos it can do 80-100 because MS has decided "Oh performance isn't important, reliability is, so we'll force cache off for all SCSI miniport devices even if it says it's on."

    See http://forums.storagereview.net/index.php?act=ST&f =2&t=1758&hl=slow+scsi+performance&s=9f0e65a3ff482 2032e4a63091694cc3f it never got fixed. Non-RAID IDE is unaffected supposedly due to a "bug" in the system where IDE devices ignore the OS commands to switch to write through caching. It's really ridiculous when a 700MB file takes almost 2 minutes to copy under XP and yet under BSD on the same system dual booted on the same array, it takes 11.2 seconds.
  • by sn00ker (172521) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:08AM (#6230161) Homepage
    there sure were a large number of glaring errors.
    1) NT4 (certainly from SP3) allows you to make partition alterations without a reboot. Even 2K requires a reboot for alterations to the boot partition, however.
    2) 2K doesn't dispense with the drive letter concept, despite the implication in the article that this is the case. That you can mount partitions under folders doesn't change this.
    3) You can specify the cluster size when formatting a drive under NT4.

    Also, has anyone actually come across a data centre that is making use of multi-hundred-TB NTFS volumes?
    And, will Longhorn finally do away with the whole drive letter concept?

  • Better, not best (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Peaker (72084) <gnupeaker@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:09AM (#6230171) Homepage
    Relational databases are better than conventional file systems in both performance and transaction management/journalling.

    However, the best solution is that used by EROS [eros-os.org], which is for the kernel not to provide a file system at all, but instead provide Orthogonal Persistence.

    This is a much simpler layer for applications, since it doesn't require them to explicitly access the memory and disk separately. It is also much simpler to recover from because the entire state of the whole disk is always known to be coherent with itself at all given points in time, without an expensive journal.

    In terms of performance - it beats the hell out of explicit disk access systems (Both conventional and database systems) because it performs big continuous reads and writes (that don't move the head much) rather than small writes on metadata and file data that forcibly jump the disk head around.

    In EROS then, on top of the Orthogonal Persistence, you can create any arbitrary Objects you want easily - because they're just normal processes with normal memory. Conventional File Systems become useless and objects implemented by processes become a much better and more powerful alternative to files.

    A relational database of the user objects is then much more powerful than a string hierarchy, but this is all the user's choice - and not hardcoded into a kernel.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:51AM (#6230445)
      Relational databases are better than conventional file systems in both performance and transaction management/journalling.
      Relational databases focus on data relationships not physical storage, which is what conventional file systems do. Performance and transactions are completely orthogonal and depend on typical use and fault tolerance requirements. E.g. XFS has both performance and journaling (only metedata though) and is still a file system.
      However, the best solution is that used by EROS, which is for the kernel not to provide a file system at all, but instead provide Orthogonal Persistence.
      Orthogonal Persistence = leave machine on indefinitely. What happens when errors and/or data corruption occur in core? Planned maintenance involving powering down the machine? How about persistent storage (backups, data transference, system upgrades)? And cost: do you think its cheaper to get a 64-bit machine and 500GB of ram to store EROS processes indefinately or a 32-bit machine with 1GB of ram and 500TB of disk space? The whole reason computer systems developed secondary storage is to address these concerns.
      This is a much simpler layer for applications, since it doesn't require them to explicitly access the memory and disk separately. It is also much simpler to recover from because the entire state of the whole disk is always known to be coherent with itself at all given points in time, without an expensive journal.
      Basically turn everything into memory mappings...and that limits your data size to your address sizes. May not be a problem with 64-bit addressing, but storage is growing exponentially.
      In terms of performance - it beats the hell out of explicit disk access systems (Both conventional and database systems) because it performs big continuous reads and writes (that don't move the head much) rather than small writes on metadata and file data that forcibly jump the disk head around.
      Modern filesystem already make such optimizations as do databases. Heard of LFS? This is a filesystem designed to do this for *BSD.
      In EROS then, on top of the Orthogonal Persistence, you can create any arbitrary Objects you want easily - because they're just normal processes with normal memory. Conventional File Systems become useless and objects implemented by processes become a much better and more powerful alternative to files.
      And backups? Seperating data from instructions? Sharing data across heteregeguous systems? Or is the plan EROS everywhere?
      A relational database of the user objects is then much more powerful than a string hierarchy, but this is all the user's choice - and not hardcoded into a kernel.
      Yes, but a string hierarchy can be used to built a relational database by layering code and design. However, the opposite is probably less efficient, if it is at all possible. Basically, flexibility and modularity are better: a user can always buy addons for database features.
  • Truth be told... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Da VinMan (7669) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:11AM (#6230185)
    I'm looking forward to this! I personally am sick and tired of filesystems as we know them today. Today's filesystems are a strict hierarchy, the existence of which is only necessary in the systems of yester-year.

    A filesystem based on a relational database will have some characteristics to which today's filesystems can only aspire:

    1. ACID - In every way that the underlying database supports Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, and Durability [techtarget.com], so now will the filesystem. In so far as the database is robust, the filesystem will be robust. Please spare me the comments about the supposed unreliability of SQL Server. Itâ(TM)s certainly more reliable than NTFS; which is itself very good.

    2. As an offshoot of the above - Imagine multiple file updates to a filesystem which is transactional! Imagine that transaction failing and being able to just rollback the changes without touching every file in your program! Imagine being able to make file changes programmatically without having to worry about locking because the engine will do it for you (just handle any exceptions)! Yeah, you could do all that today if you like. But it takes extensive to make it happen.

    3. Operational characteristics - We can run queries against databases. We can index them. We can cluster them. We can replicate them. We can access them easily from any development platform you can imagine. Now your filesystem is a database. The possibilities make me shiver! :+) Maybe the initial implementation wonâ(TM)t get all this right. But at least it stands a chance.

    4. Another offshoot from #3 - Security. Databases are inherently better than filesystems (IMNSHO) at enforcing security and enabling administration of security.

    I only have reservations about one issue with the database as filesystem area: recovery. Currently, all good and low-tech filesystem recovery tools really are based on the filesystem allocation table sort of scheme. Obviously, databases usurp this category of tried and true tools. However, good tools already do exist that allow recovery of relational databases. Itâ(TM)s just a matter of getting easily accessible tools of this sort into the hands of professionals that need them. It's more of a training issue I guess, but it will still need addressing.

    I know many people will have a knee jerk reaction to this idea, and I understand why. But I would encourage people to keep an open mind to this. While there will probably be some issues with the idea, there's so much more that could easily be done with a filesystem on top of a database than could be done easily (or well) with a traditional filesystem.

    And for you hard-core naysayers out there, you have to ask yourself this: If this is such a bad idea, then why did Oracle provide this as a feature too? [oracle.com]
    • by hansreiser (6963) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @06:08AM (#6231592) Homepage
      Take a look at www.namesys.com/v4/reiser4_the_atomic_fs.html

      and at www.namesys.com/v4/v4.html.

      We will be adding support for semi-structured data querying in the next major release, assuming that we find funding for it. The semantics for it are described at www.namesys.com/whitepaper.html, which also explains why I don't think the relational model is effective for semi-structured data stores such as a general purpose filesystem is normally used for.

      Best,

      Hans
  • by Nucleon500 (628631) <tcfelker@example.com> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:42AM (#6230381) Homepage
    Most of what we say is guessing, because we don't know the question MS is trying to answer. I can't think of any goals best met by WinFS.

    A directory tree is a very useful structure, at least to the software. Similar stuff is grouped together, and easily cached. It provides a very clean and simple way of putting data somewhere and getting it back later. This should not lightly cast aside.

    So, you want to use a relational database to keep track of files? Go for it, but instead of keeping track of the files themselves, keep track of their paths. Let the filesystem do the efficient storage, and the database do the efficient lookups. The database can be made faster and smaller, the filesystems can remain as fast as they are, and the files are still there even if the database gets corrupted.

    Put hooks wherever necessary to update the database when the filesystem changes. For example, put a database in the root of each filesystem. Use a stacked mount to mount that disk, so when interesting things happen, the kernel tells a userspace process that updates the database. Then, make some standard libraries that use the database. Make file browsers that can query it, but pass the path to programs. Make save dialogs that can also save metadata about the file, and open dialogs that can search for it. Use LUFS or FUSE to make directories that correspond to queries.

    This is just as effective as what MS is doing [theregister.co.uk], but it's more efficient, it's more compatible, and it doesn't reinvent the wheel.

  • RTFA, /. !!! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NetFu (155538) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:41AM (#6230720) Homepage Journal
    I've been reading and contributing responses to Slashdot for years, but this is by far the worst article I've ever seen posted here. I can't believe whoever posted the article on the "front page" of Slashdot actually read the article -- they couldn't have even read the first page.

    Right on the first page of the article, the "journalist" who wrote it describes disk storage as "memory". In the "Summary" of the article posted on every page, current file systems are described as wasting "memory". This reminds me of every-day users who confuse their computer running slowly (or literally telling them they don't have enough memory) with the need to delete files from the hard drive -- two completely separate things in most situations. This is all aside from the fact that the article doesn't actually tell you much that anybody who's used computers for more than six months doesn't already know. This guy sounds like some of the kids who come to me interviewing for I.T. positions thinking they've got a leg-up on everyone else because they've got some basic experience with PC's and Windows.

    The bottom line is that the guy who wrote this article doesn't have any business writing tech articles without heavy supervision from someone who KNOWS tech, and I don't just mean someone who knows enough to rattle off performance numbers for CPU comparisons (read some other articles on the site). Lastly, Slashdot has no business posting amateurish and misinforming articles like this for the rest of us to waste our time on.
  • by jamezilla (609812) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:33AM (#6230929) Homepage
    The reason why WinFS was slated for the desktop first (and then later considered for server deployment) is because it was considered a usability enhancement -- not a performance enhancer. Most /. readers won't understand this because they think Linux is easy to use (it's not).

    Usability engineers looked at what users were doing in Windows and they saw that tons of people weren't using the filesystem - at least not directly. They were just putting everything on the desktop. If it was on the desktop, they could find it. They kept folder structures to a minimum and organized things visually (or not at all).

    This posed a significant problem, so indexing and searching and abstracting the filesystem was one of the solutions. Instead of having to navigate a filesystem (hard for many users), you just type in what you're looking for and *poof* it appears. Not sure what you're looking for? Start describing it... *poof* it appears.

    I'm not saying this is the right solution, but technology is not always about cluster size and performance - especially if the system isn't usable. It will be interesting to see how user friendly this WinFS thing is...

  • by stox (131684) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:40AM (#6230955) Homepage
    3 years before release: Product will do everything for everyone.

    2 years before release: Product will do everything for the majority of users.

    1 year before release: Product will do many things for many users.

    Release: Well it does something.
  • by drdoc (640229) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @03:04AM (#6231040)
    Microsoft loves to create incredibly complicated, undocumented and fragile data structures. Consider word: the internal structure of a word document as itself a filesystem, it has a root, a FAT and a bad block list. If even 1 block is damaged the file is useless. There are few repair tools because the internal layout is secret and undocumented. Access and SQL files are worse. In data recovery we frequently recover 90% of the files from volumes that have thousands of bad blocks or other damage. That wont work with WinFS. Are you going to store you precious digital photos on your $80 WesternDigital 80gb drive with its new 1 year warranty? Microsofts (and WD's) attitude will be that you should have backed it up. How do you easily back-up 80gb anyway?
  • "Memory"? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bluephone (200451) <grey&burntelectrons,org> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @05:20AM (#6231470) Homepage Journal
    Am I the only one really annoyed at this guys use of "memory" for disk space? I _still_ find customers who can't tell the difference between RAM and HDD, and this guy goes and makes it worse for every twit who thinks they know everything. Yes, I know that one can make a theoretical argument for using the term, but really, in practice, memory is RAM. It's just annoying... I'm surprised to see it at Tom's Hardware...
    • by localghost (659616) <dleblanc@gmail.com> on Tuesday June 17 2003, @11:42PM (#6229941)
      Journaling doesn't reduce performance much, and at least for me, it's well worth it for the peace of mind, and the lack of fsck. Hard drive space is hardly at a premium, most people can spare the 10%, and without it, I spend 15 minutes scanning my 40GB disk every certain number of boots (or if it's not shut down right). If I used Windows, I'd at least give WinFS a try.
      • by SweetAndSourJesus (555410) <{JesusAndTheRobot} {at} {yahoo.com}> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:46AM (#6230414)
        From what I've read and experienced, the performance hit only involves writes. Reads are unaffected.

        Writes are about 10% less efficient, which a pretty good tradeoff for that peace of mind.

        • by NightSpots (682462) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:21AM (#6230629) Homepage
          Right, but in general, journaling is a hack. The BSD softupdates concept is both cleaner and faster, and accomplishes nearly the same thing. To be fair, all of NTFS, ext3, reiserfs, BeOS's FS, and the new OSX FS have some advanced journaling features, but the concept itself should be more cleanly handled. Much like databases should be ACID compliant, filesystem writes can and should occur in such a manner that no external journal is required.
          • by platypus (18156) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @04:23AM (#6231297) Homepage
            Much like databases should be ACID compliant, filesystem writes can and should occur in such a manner that no external journal is required.

            And how would you propose to achieve that without performance going down the drain?
            The guys writing these filesystems are not dumb, and the reasons why journals are used are well considered. Another thing is that ACID compliant databases also use something like a journal to achive the atomicity.
            Oh, and forget softupdates, they are _not_ comparable to journaling filesystems, for instance you still need to fsck, it's just faster.
            Compare that with one of the funnies manpages I know [sgi.com].

      • Alas it doesn't help (Score:5, Informative)

        by iamacat (583406) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:49AM (#6230984)
        I use journaling and still get filesystem corruption that is not automatically fixed (like overlapped extent allocation) once in a while. On the other hand, HFS+ seems to already use a B-tree and file search is quite fast.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:50AM (#6230988)
        It should be noted that the regular fsck should still be performed, even on a journaling filesystem. The fsck after an unclean shutdown is obsoleted by the journal, but the regular fsck is supposed to catch subtle errors in the filesystem code and hardware problems which can cause the filesystem structure to rot slowly - problems which a journal can't and won't fix.
        • by Hast (24833) <marcushast@gmail.com> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @04:13AM (#6231269)
          I think you are confusing the terms. Or you just got the threads mixed up.

          Journalling makes sure that the state of data, or meta-data is always defined. So even if you turn the computer off while in the middle of a write command the file-system will be in a correct state afterwards. (The write operation will be lost however.) It is basically a way of making HDD operations atomic. Either they succeed or they fail, the in between state is what puts your drive in a corrupted state.

          When talking about 10% it is refering to space on the disk for the log file to make this possible.

          Now storing the meta data in a database, which is essentially what WinFS and such are doing, is not as clear a benfit. Personally I can imagine that it would be a very practiacal FS for keeping movies and MP3's on. I don't really see the benefits of running the OS files on that FS though. A lot of unneccesary overhead. (I don't search for files in my OS partition very often.)
    • by adamsc (985) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:15AM (#6230860) Homepage
      I think the performance of WinFS will tell us how serious Microsoft is about really changing the way files are used. Performance is just a question of time and engineering resources - OS X's journaling is slow but HFS+ is an antique filesystem; in contrast BeOS had BFS, a journaled filesystem with all of the indexing buzzwords WinFS claims except free-text context searches and it was also extremely fast.

      The difference isn't features - BeFS supported everything HFS+ does and arbitrary attributes, journaling, much larger file/filesystem support, and indexing and it was still faster. Be simply made performance a much higher priority than Apple has so far; fortunately they've hired the BeFS lead developer and perhaps 10.3 will have some surprises.

      Another good example is ReiserFS - while some of their choices reflect overall design goals (e.g. targeting large numbers of small files instead of BFS's massive videos) they've largely passed the traditional filesystems in most areas despite having to do more work to keep all of the extra features going.

      Microsoft has a number of engineers who do understand performance; the question is simply whether it'll be a significant priority for them to make WinFS fast enough that we'll realistically be able to use it.
      • by TheNetAvenger (624455) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:38AM (#6230358)
        Yeah, but I bet you it'll be like Windows XP's theoretical ability to use FAT 32 - it can read it, but it won't actually let you format in FAT32 when doing an installation

        So when is the last time you actually used WindowsXP? What you said is pretty silly.

        You can install WindowsXP on FAT32, even create FAT32 partitions during setup etc, all the same options you get with NTFS during the install.

        Are you trying to make up stuff or just never used it?

        Geeshâ¦
          • by Unoriginal Nick (620805) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:47AM (#6230749)
            Let me assure you that while it can read FAT32, the OS as default will not FAT32 format any drive over (I belive) 2Gb.

            The limit is 32GBs.

            FAT32 Formatting in Setup is an option, but is known to frequently fail or have significant errors

            No it doesn't.

            FAT 32 Formatting once you are in the OS requires 3rd Party wares.

            Again, only if creating partitions bigger than 32GBs.

          • by TheNetAvenger (624455) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @03:09AM (#6231059)
            I'm posting this from a WinXP machine. Let me assure you that while it can read FAT32, the OS as default will not FAT32 format any drive over (I belive) 2Gb.

            FAT32 Formatting in Setup is an option, but is known to frequently fail or have significant errors.

            FAT 32 Formatting once you are in the OS requires 3rd Party wares.

            SCO has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.


            I hate to rain on your parade, but the information you are providing you are either mixing with NT4 information or just making it up as you go.

            Nothing I can say is convincing you, so let me reference you to the information you need.

            http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/using/how to /gettingstarted/guide/installnew.asp

            It clearly provides information on the only limitations of doing a FAT32 installation of WindowsXP, and that is the inherent limitation of FAT32 only being able to recognize a 32GB partition size.

            As for '(I belive)2Gb', you are referring to the FAT16 installation of NT4. It doesn't apply to WindowsXP.

            FAT 32 Formatting once you are in the OS requires 3rd Party wares.

            Here let me quote from a command prompt for your edificationâ¦

            Format /?
            Formats a disk for use with Windows XP.

            FORMAT volume [/FS:file-system] [/V:label] [/Q] [/A:size] [/C] [/X]
            FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/F:size]
            FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/T:tracks /N:sectors]
            FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q]
            FORMAT volume [/Q]
            volume Specifies the drive letter (followed by a colon), mount point, or volume name. /FS:filesystem Specifies the type of the file system (FAT, FAT32, or NTFS).


            Notice the last line?

            So where do you get your information, tooth-fairy, or just make it up as you go? Third party utilities are NOT needed to format FAT32 in WindowsXP, as you said âonce you are in the OSâ(TM) â" BTW, did you know that even during Setup â" YOU ARE âIN THE OSâ(TM)? It is running a stub version of NT already at that point; you are already in the NT OS.

            FAT32 Formatting in Setup is an option, but is known to frequently fail or have significant errors.

            Since when? Where do you document this at? Funny in all the time our tech team has put into working with WindowsNT, they can find no reference to this, either online or in their own experience. Tooth-fairy again or just making it up as you go?

            There are NO known issues or documented issues of WindowsNT EVER having a problem running on a FAT partition, either FAT16 from NT4 days or FAT32 of current days. The NT core has an installable File System, like most modern OSes, and its interaction with the file system underneath is irrelevant to how it operates in regard to failure or problems.

            Besides, this is really a moot point. If you are running WindowsXP and it is your only OS, then there is NO reason not to use NTFS. It is faster with larger files, faster with large volumes, supports compression, supports encryption and can have partitions up to 16 exabytes in size.

            If you are running WindowsXP on FAT32, you are missing half the benefits of WindowsXP and the security of NTFS as well as its reliability of sitting on a journalled file system, etc, etc.

            Geesh.
            • by illtud (115152) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @04:35AM (#6231336)
              As for '(I belive)2Gb', you are referring to the FAT16 installation of NT4. It doesn't apply to WindowsXP.


              AFAIK, the NTFS installation of NT4 won't allow you to have a primary (system) volume > 4GB. This is because NT will install a FAT16 volume and later convert it [is-it-true.org]. This may have been fixed in a service pack, but until you install the OS, how are you going to get a SP on there? Sure, you can
              grow the partition later, but you're being a bit disingenuous in your specifying that this problem is confined to FAT16 installation on NT4, since an NTFS installation *uses* the FAT16 installation.

        • by afidel (530433) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @12:30AM (#6230316)
          Linux can not safely write to NTFS, not even NTFSv1.2 even though it has been around since 1994. The lack of documentation makes it so that some aspects of updating the metadata and indexes cannot be done safely in all situations.
            • by afidel (530433) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:53AM (#6230775)
              The sysinternals driver is NOT a reverse engineering, it is basically a DOS mode interface to the windows system dll's. When you use the NTFSDOS disk you have to run it under the version of windows for which you will be accessing the NTFS partition, it then snarfs up the system dll's and puts them on the disk. Then when you load up the disk you run ntfsdos.exe which is basically a wrapper around that code. This could probably be done for linux but it would probably not be redistributable for fear of legal reprecussions from MS (how sysinternals gets away with it I do not know, maybe they have an agreement with MS, or maybe they are just too small of fish and too usefull for MS to swat them)
    • by NightSpots (682462) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @01:26AM (#6230653) Homepage
      This is completely unfair.

      How many gaping security holes have there been in NTFS?

      By most accounts, NTFS is one of the better filesystems ever written. Journaling, ACLs, decent performance.

      There is talent in Redmond. Ignoring that is as flawed as assuming the entire Linux community is represented by Sendmail and SCO (security holes and bad publicity). Pretty bad, right?
      • by mindbooger (650932) on Wednesday June 18 2003, @02:37AM (#6230945)
        By most accounts, NTFS is one of the better filesystems ever written. Journaling, ACLs, decent performance.

        ... fragments all to heck and back. Ever notice the absence of "defragger" utils in the non-microsoft world? IIRC, I'd read that NTFS was one of the _worst_ fragmenting filesystems.

          • by Twylite (234238) <twylite@crypt.co.COLAza minus caffeine> on Wednesday June 18 2003, @03:59AM (#6231220) Homepage
            It's a hierarchical organization; it doesn't matter how big the drive gets.

            One word: FAT. You are making three assumptions here. The first is that the underlying implementation is capable of supporting near-infinite extension without degradation. Invalid for FAT, valid for the FS types mentioned in the grandparent, and the reason for what I said. The second is that the file system will be used as a hierarchy, which is invalid for most end users. The third is a combination of the first and second, being that the file system extends without unreasonable degradation to a vasst number of files in a single directory, and performing operations (esp. searches) on them quickly. This is invalid for all of these file systems, because of how they store metadata.

            Why would I want to do "a simple name search for a file across an entire drive"? The file name is meaningless outside the context of its hierarchy.

            Again, you're assumiung you, a technically savvy user. End users don't behave like this. By and large they use meaningful file names in a single directory. If you're looking for a document someone else did, it will be in their single directory, not in a common folder for documents relating to that topic. If you don't know who worked on the document, you need to do a broad search based on keywords.

            Yes, and it's fine for what it is. I certainly wouldn't want the overhead of updating the "locate" database every time a file changes somewhere.

            Which shows how little you've thought about the implementation of this system. You only have to make a change if the file metadata changes. In many file systems you already have to write that change in a different location to changes to the file itself (if you don't, your metadata search time goes out the window). If your "locate" database is a relational database, making a change has trivial overhead.

            Well, welcome to the club. For years, Linux has had several implementations, among them FAM, dnotify, and changedfiles, with hooks into indexing systems, and Linux is hardly the first.

            Actually, this isn't what I was meaning. I was referring to the relationship between the data in the FS and in the locate database (or any other metadata search database), and indicating that WinFS (in theory) takes out the step of building a separate database by using the database as the "index" of the file system. Unfortunately in this incarnation of WinFS (the current implementation) MS will not be implementing it quite in that fashion.

            But to answer your point ... Win32 systems have had file change notification in their APIs from day 1 (NT 3.1 / Win95 + have FindFirstChangeNotification; NT 3.51 + have ReadDirectoryChangesW).

            [snip] you are far better off with a real document database

            And that's pretty much what MS is doing by converging a tradition file system with a metadata view.

            Microsoft should focus on creating a robust file system with decent performance, not get side-tracked with gimmicks. NTFS could still stand a lot of improvement.

            Of course, WinFS was intended for client operation systems, not servers. And while NTFS could still be improved, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do so: most high data volume applications store their data in structured files, and don't require much from the file system in any place where performance could be signficantly improved.