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TRON Enters Alliance With Microsoft

Posted by timothy on Tue Sep 30, 2003 07:30 PM
from the sound-of-mechanical-breathing dept.
Operating Systems Software Microsoft Hardware
David writes "As widely reported on OSNews.com, Forbes, IDG, CNet, AustralianIT, and Ashi Shimbun - Microsoft Corp. has entered into an alliance with the T-engine Forum, the consortium behind the free software TRON operating system. As TRON runs billions of devices worldwide, this will help Microsoft's goal of cementing WinCE / .NET in places as diverse as your toaster and cell phone, perhaps in a setup similar to how X-Windows is in relation to the Linux kernel." (Continued below.)

David continues: "This arrangement is ironic, as Microsoft is part of the reason why the U.S. in the 1980s prevented Japan from putting TRON into schools on the desktop by account of trade rules, which would've meant Linux may've never gone beyond being a footnote in the comp.os.minix archives. No doubt Microsoft is aiming to keep Linux out of the embedded space, and may in the long-term foster an environment where using anything other than industry-licenced OS software on the desktop becomes unviable for everyday tasks because all the infratructurial systems we take for granted today like radio, television, phones, IM, require Palladium-style walled gardens."

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  • But... (Score:5, Funny)

    by condour75 (452029) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:33PM (#7099589) Homepage
    I'll never believe it... Tron fights for the users. He'd never work for the MCP.

  • Shoot me now! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Roadkills-R-Us (122219) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:35PM (#7099611) Homepage
    Too late, they already put Windows on my gun, and it just keeps rebooting when I pull the trigger.

    • Re:Shoot me now! (Score:5, Funny)

      by NanoGator (522640) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:53PM (#7099730) Homepage Journal
      "Too late, they already put Windows on my gun, and it just keeps rebooting when I pull the trigger."

      I tried to commit suicide using a Linux based gun. Unfortunately, by the time I figured out the right switches for the sht command, I felt better!

      • Re:Shoot me now! (Score:5, Funny)

        by dvdeug (5033) <dvdeug AT email DOT ro> on Tuesday September 30 2003, @08:00PM (#7099769)
        Unfortunately, by the time I figured out the right switches for the sht command, I felt better!

        RTFM. It's sht [options] [caliber] [number of bullets], where -l is for lead bullets, -number is how you specify the number of the body part you want to shoot (where the default is in the air), -h for high velocity, and -q for auto reload. How much easier could it get?

        • Re:Shoot me now! (Score:4, Funny)

          by NanoGator (522640) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @08:09PM (#7099823) Homepage Journal
          "RTFM. It's sht [options] [caliber] [number of bullets], where -l is for lead bullets, -number is how you specify the number of the body part you want to shoot (where the default is in the air), -h for high velocity, and -q for auto reload. How much easier could it get?"

          I tried to use the auto feature for caliber, and it wasn't working. I had to look that up. Oh, and it's -H not -h. Stupid man page had a typo in it.
        • Please download it off some obscure site, then satisfy its dependencies then satisfy the dependencies of its dependencies only to find out that it either blows up when you use sht command or would not compile due to bugs in the code/different GCC version/missing files.
        • Bah, the n00b should just use DrakSuicide and let the wizard walk him through it. He's not ready for the command line.

          Disclaimer: I am a Mandrake user, and I used DrakSlashdot to post this

        • How much easier could it get?

          well, you need to be root to do that.
        • -number is how you specify the number of the body part you want to shoot (where the default is in the air)

          An improvement on the first version, where the default was the foot.

        • GNU (Score:4, Funny)

          by kahei (466208) on Wednesday October 01 2003, @04:26AM (#7101910) Homepage

          You may be thinking of a vendor sht. He's probably using GNU sht, which takes caliber etc from a file of tab (NOT space -- think make!) separated records -- exact syntax available in handy 'info' format.

          Frankly it's easier to just use windows and call IFirearmsEx::WGunSystemBulletOperationShootEx32(HG UN gun, HAMMO ammo, LPTRAJECTORY trajectory, LPSHOOTPARAMS params, DWORD reserved1, DWORD reserved2, BOOL &bHitYesNo)

    • > Too late, they already put Windows on my gun, and it just keeps rebooting when I pull the trigger.

      That's just how it goes. If it didn't reboot, then you would've had a fatal error :p

  • BSOLC (Score:5, Funny)

    by forsetti (158019) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:35PM (#7099614)
    Blue Screen of Light-Cycle?

  • Sorry... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:36PM (#7099619)
    I don't want a MS powered toaster. It would bring down my power network, and I would be open to power line viruses. Besides, it might start doing weird things and throw the toast at the ceiling for no reason, or just refuse to toast, and I'd have to reboot the toaster to get it to work again...

    No thanks! Spare me the Microsoft stuff and give me a good old mechanical toaster! Yah!!

    • Re:Sorry... (Score:5, Funny)

      by LordOfYourPants (145342) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:43PM (#7099672)
      If my toaster were Linux powered, my toast would come out perfectly every time. The caveat is that the toast would have to be cut up into 40 pieces and thrown up into the air because the toaster is mounted on the ceiling and everyone who suggests that it should go on a counter would be told "You can open up the toaster and see the guts. Go build your own."

      On top of that, no one knows that they have to cut their toast into 40 pieces before a perfect toasting session because asking for help with their toaster nets them a "RTFM," leading them to a 400 page manual that explains everything but they kitchen sink when they just want to have a piece of toast. That, or they get directed to toast tech support which charges them $50 a year for a straight answer.

      There'd be a ToastMaster who would decide when and where the latest model of the toaster gets released. Again, other gizmo fans could roll their own toaster, but people taking on names like ToasterOne would end up getting in shit for doing so.
        • The OS with MS bloat will require a 200 Gb hard disk to fit it on, fortunately it doubles as the heating element

          No, that would be silly. Everybody knows that the toaster will have an internet connection where it can download the variuos .net services into ram.

          You will have perfect toast every time.

          And when there are death-related incidents due to the SOtoast virus Microsoft will be able to quickly download a patch to your toaster.

        • No, they just want to make a friggin' tarball. Without reading through a godawful horribly formatted man page that requires scrolling through tons of never-used parameters just to create one. It's easier to ask someone who knows (and also the prevailing attitude is that someone experienced would know a better or easier shortcut way to do it).

          But I guess that wouldn't let people be elitist. That sort of elitism comes from geeks with no social skills. Normal people are willing to help out.

  • such a shame (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Crashmarik (635988) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:39PM (#7099641)
    Leopards don't change their spots
    Lions don't lie with lambs
    Microsoft doesn't play well with others

    Its really a shame that theres always someone out there who figures theyr'e the ones that can get a fair shake out of Microsoft.

    Microsoft allready moved against TRON being adopted by japanese schools. (WTO trade regs were their weapon of choice). Does anyone at the TRON project really think the vole of redmond has had a change of heart ?

    The only ray of hope here, is that it will provide a great impetus to embeded linux. I can just see chinese party officials thinking their refrigerators are spying on them because they run microsoft operating systems.

    • Re:such a shame (Score:4, Funny)

      by Bendebecker (633126) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:45PM (#7099685) Journal
      "The only ray of hope here, is that it will provide a great impetus to embeded linux."
      Nope, the only hope here is if one of us users can get into the system and liberate TRON before he gets the bits blasted out of him on the game grid.

    • Re:such a shame (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonvmous Coward (589068) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @08:08PM (#7099813)
      "Leopards don't change their spots
      Lions don't lie with lambs
      Microsoft doesn't play well with others"

      Ah, but caterpillars turn into butterflies. Your argument is defeated! Buahaha!

      See how easy it is to attack an argument that overly relies on metaphor? I'm really suprised you were modded up.
      • Therefore: BSD is dying, QED.

        Wait, now I'm confused. What was this analogy about?
      • See how easy it is to attack an argument that overly relies on metaphor?

        For every common phrase or saying, there is an equal and opposite phrase or saying.

        For example:

        "The early bird gets the worm" vs. "Good things come to those that wait."

        Or, my personal favorite:

        "Great minds think alike" vs. "No two fools differ."

      • Re:such a shame (Score:5, Insightful)

        by 1010011010 (53039) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @10:14PM (#7100500) Homepage

        How about:

        • The Earth makes one revolution about its axis each day.
        • Air at normal pressure and temperature is less dense than uranium.
        • Microsoft cannot be trusted


        How could anyone ever arrive at the conclusion that Microsoft will not screw them?

        Microsoft's intentions in this deal are transparent. They tried to crush TRON with Super301. Now they're trying to subvert it. When TRON is just a way to run .Net, why would one need TRON?

        Same story, different day: "Microsoft seeks absolute control."

    • Re:such a shame (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Citizen of Earth (569446) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @08:44PM (#7100040)
      This is you getting into bed with Microsoft.

      This is you getting fucked.

      Any questions?

    • Re:such a shame (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AstroDrabb (534369) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @09:30PM (#7100278)
      I hate MS as much as the next guy. However, this looks like it will STILL be TRON and it will STILL be a free RTOS. They are just going to allow MS and their .Not crap to run on it. I guess this is how MS wants to try to get a monopoly on the embeded world.

  • Shit... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Bendebecker (633126) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:39PM (#7099642) Journal
    Where's Flynn when ya need him?

    Sark: "You're just an ordinary program!"
    Flynn:"So are you. One that should have been erased."

    Flynn:"Come on, how can you expect to rule the world if you can't solve a few unsolvable problems."

  • This just in... (Score:5, Funny)

    by NMerriam (15122) <NMerriam@artboy.org> on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:41PM (#7099657) Homepage
    TRON and Microsoft are only working together on a new security system that will be able to protect heterogeneous systems from attack, so there is no reason to worry.

    The first SDK for this software ("Skynet") should be out in about 18 months.
    • "The first SDK for this software ("Skynet") should be out in about 18 months."

      6 years later, after the war is over, the OSS community will have finally finished making an Open Source copy of the system. There were no problems with the launch of Kskynet as it didn't have enough features to make it self-aware.

  • Oh Well (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:42PM (#7099666)
    Better than having to pay an extra $699 to SCO for my toaster.

  • This is part of the .NET vs Java war (Score:4, Informative)

    by bizcoach (640439) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:43PM (#7099673) Homepage
    The main point seems to be:

    The agreement will allow the Windows CE .NET platform for digital devices to work on top of T-Kernel.

    • Re:This is part of the .NET vs Java war (Score:4, Insightful)

      by cpeterso (19082) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @09:09PM (#7100168) Homepage

      good point. The story sounds familiar:

      1. Microsoft "cooperates" with an established competitor
      2. Microsoft embraces and extends established standard (TRON OS)
      3. Microsoft cuts ties with competitor and/or drops support for the standard


      Since WinCE uptake has been slow for embedded devices, this plan will "cut 'em off at the pass" by inserting .NET between the low-level OS and user-level apps. .NET is the new "OS".

    • Window CE is just one of the middlewares for TE (Score:5, Informative)

      by pario (675744) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @11:22PM (#7100882)
      Everyone here seems to have missed the main point. This alliance only means that Microsoft will create a version of Windows CE .NET that runs on the T-Engine platform. T-Engine is a collection of standards for embedded hardware, realtime operating system and middlewares, and for the T-Engine platform Windows CE .NET will be just one of the middlewares. This news is not even about Microsoft taking over TRON or MS vs Java; in fact, there are T-Java and T-Linux under development, by Sun and Montavista, respectively, and other GUI middlewares on sale, which were originally part of BTRON, the TRON desktop OS. Most information about T-Engine is available only in Japanese at this point, but you can find some in English here. [super-nova.co.jp]

      As a sidenote, the main thrust of the T-Engine platform is high portabilty of middlewares across various embedded emvironments with different CPUs. This portabilty is made possible by a standard opensource kernel, which is based on micro-ITRON 3.0, and standalization of hardware. Dr. Sakamura even said he is going to fix the specification of the realtime kernel by the end of year and it will not be changed for the next HUNDRED years for the sake of comatibilty of middlewares. Moreover, there are rumors that a subsidary of Panasonic is developing a desktop operating system based on T-Engine. This is a very exciting year for the TRON project indeed.

  • No, they'll play fair enough. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by JayBlalock (635935) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:45PM (#7099683)
    Actually, I have no doubt that Microsoft will play relatively fair with these guys. If they're a non-profit org, that means they could pretty much pick up their toys and leave anytime they want. (in realistic terms; I obviously don't know what kind of contract was signed) The idea appears to solely be to let Microsoft take over what has always been a pretty serious competitor in Asia in the handheld markets. I have little doubt that whatever comes of this will be named "Microsoft Tron" or "Powered by Microsoft TN Technologies" or something like.

    It's just more assimilation. (and just think, they were probably prepping this deal at the same time they were whining about the China-Japan-Korea superOS being unfair)

  • Evil MCP (Score:3, Funny)

    by rindeee (530084) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:49PM (#7099706)
    Hey, wait a minute. I always knew there was something strange about those Microsoft Certified Professionals and they ugly biege MCP polo shirts that were tucked frumpilly into their 38" Husky "big boy" denims. Little did I know how deep their dasterdliness ran. /shutter/

    ER

  • This one is very obvious (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Neo-Rio-101 (700494) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:50PM (#7099710)
    My first reaction to this is that here is Microsoft trying to stem the tide against the proposed OS that China, Japan, and Korea are thinking about.

    In Japan, Microsoft has a fair bit of prestige... unlike, say, in Europe or the US where MS's reputation is sullied by the anti-trust suits. The Japanese, IMO, don't really think that the general public minds MS dominance... but then the Japanese wouldn't say openly that they hate MS or anything. Plus most IT workers would be thrilled to work for MS Japan... they have lots of cash after all. There seems to be no debate here about "which OS is better" like there is in other western countries.

  • In Microsoft America... (Score:3, Funny)

    by phillymjs (234426) <slashdot.stango@org> on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:51PM (#7099713) Homepage Journal
    ..."Windows Powered"(TM) toaster sticks fork in YOU!

    ~Philly
  • Talkie Toaster [geocities.com]

    Would anybody like some toast?
    Well then, would anybody like some toast?

  • I'm all for it... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Mrs. Grundy (680212) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @07:56PM (#7099742) Homepage
    if it means that when I can't figure out how to use a kitchen appliance a little anthropomorphized cartoon refrigerator character pops up, waves at me and tells me what to do.

  • Clippy ][ (Score:3, Funny)

    by dswensen (252552) on Tuesday September 30 2003, @08:00PM (#7099762) Homepage Journal
    This will mark the return of Clippy, mark my words.

    It appears you're trying to make toast. Would you...

    A) Like advice on which bread to use?
    B) Adjust your toast settings (will require Microsoft TOAST(TM)(R) Install CD)
    C) Prepare your spread of choice?
    D) Just go make some damn eggs (Microsoft Eggs will open in new window)

  • Tron is open source?? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by molo (94384) on Wednesday October 01 2003, @12:24AM (#7101132) Journal
    I said it before [slashdot.org] and I'll say it again: where can I find the source and the license to tron? It seems that tron is more of an open specification of a RTOS, and there are a ton of closed binary-only implementations.

    This actually kinda reminds me of the MIPS processor architechure.. there is an open specification and lots of people produce chips for the ISA.. but it wasn't until opencores [opencores.org] came along that there was an open implementation.. and there is no open implementation for TRON yet, AFAIK.

    Is tron open-source? Where is the code? Where is the license? Whats the story here? If it really is open-source, why can't someone point to the code? Something is fishy here.. or perhaps its just lost in the translation.. but I can't figure this out.

    -molo

    • Re:Tron is open source?? (Score:5, Informative)

      by kahei (466208) on Wednesday October 01 2003, @04:40AM (#7101960) Homepage
      *sigh*

      TRON is a set of standards, SOME of which relate specifically to a realtime OS.

      You can buy the standards from the TRON Association and implement them.

      There is no source, unless you write some.

      Incidentally, how precisely did the parent post get modded *up* rather than *down*? I mean, I don't usually RTFA any more than the next guy, but it's a bit depressing that so many people made their opinions public without stopping to learn what the topic even *is*.

      By the way, MS deal with TRON consists of layering .NET on TRON in the same way many other things are already layered on it (or, to put it another way, making CE .NET conform to the TRON standard). This is a sensible and obvious thing to do and is the kind of thing TRON is designed for. Nothing to see here, tinfoil hats back in pockets please, move along.

  • Hmmm... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Trolling4Dollars (627073) on Wednesday October 01 2003, @01:03AM (#7101271) Journal
    Maybe that joke about Microsoft making something that doesn't suck (vacuum cleaner) may be coming to real life very soon?

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