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Sun Opens JDesktop Integration Components
Posted by
simoniker
on Mon Jun 07, 2004 03:56 PM
from the bright-disposition dept.
from the bright-disposition dept.
Jahf writes "Sun has released the JDIC / JDesktop Integration Components API via the LGPL. The idea is to create a Java API that allows Java applications to better integrate with a modern desktop. It allows apps to embed a web browser component, access/launch desktop applications and associate filetypes. Documentation and demos are available and there is an incubator project (SaverBeans Screensaver) under way. Sun has been a proponent of developing desktop apps in Java, including a number of open source Java apps in the Java Desktop System and developing new ones for it as well (Java System Updater), and this appears to be a step towards making that goal a bit easier. I'm sure that every release of Java Desktop System (disclaimer: yes, I work on it) will continue to get the 'it has nothing to do with Java!' trolling since Sun is using GNOME as a desktop foundation (imagine what people would say if Sun created a 3rd environment in Java!) But those willing to step back and look at all facets (JDIC, Java Desktop System, Looking Glass previews, etc), hopefully others will see that Sun is getting more serious about making Java a platform for desktop developers."
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LGPL! (Score:5, Interesting)
LGPL for pieces doesn't matter (Score:4, Interesting)
And Sun does: not only is there no complete open source implementation of crucial components like Swing (although the SWT-Swing effort may be changing that), even if people should manage to make a credible and complete open source Java 2 implementation, Sun's licensing restrictions on the Java specifications and their Java-related patents would probably let them shut down or control any such implementation should it become a threat to their dominance.
Parent
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
That's good news (Score:4, Interesting)
Soon [I hope] this free Java compiler/interpreter will be ready to replace the "closed" Sun's Java.
Misinformed (Score:4, Informative)
OTOH GCJ is far from replacing Sun's java (at least in terms of speed). To compile java properly you have to do some funky runtime optimizations (which sometimes even require un-optimizations!), something that the gcc infrastructure doesn't really allow. That's why you get considerably better running speeds with Sun's or IBM's JITs (although you do get better startup speeds with gcj)
Parent
Re:Misinformed (Score:2)
This is on an Athlon XP2400+ machine running Fedora Core 2 (kernel 2.6.5).
This is obviously a lot slower than a C program (no surprise there) but it's still fast enough to give you an "instantaneous feeling" when running an application.
Good step forward, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Good step forward, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Good step forward, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Good step forward, but... (Score:3, Informative)
Benchmarks here:
http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaC
Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (Score:2, Interesting)
neverind the trolling you'll get because GNOME is being implented in .Net/Mono instead of Java.... :)
.NET on Linux
That's right I say:
JDS = GNOME = Mono =
Re:Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (Score:3, Informative)
That's right I say: .NET on Linux
JDS = GNOME = Mono =
Almost: .net on multiple platforms)
(JDS = GNOME) != (Mono =
GNOME is written in C (C++?), Mono is an open implementation of .net that runs on multiple platforms (including GNOME, KDE, Solaris, Windows, etc, etc) One's a language, the other's a technology (virtual machine, languageS, etc)
...and, to be honest, JDS is like most distros: it's not just the Window Manager. But hey! Why let "facts" get in the way of a good troll!
Re:Trolling? JDS = GNOME = Mono = .NET on Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
Key fact:
Mono is an open implementation of a subset of
Arghhh... brain overload! (Score:2, Interesting)
Man, that was uncalled for. My head is spinning with comments. Must not read Slashdot thread for other's jokes.
Seriously folks, lets keep this on topic and confine these things to a single thread that is easily ignorable. Replying to this would be a good start.
Still an abusive friend (Score:4, Interesting)
Enter the debate of AWT, Swing, JFC, and all these other widget libraries. I tried the free Forte for Java and JBuilder to make me cutesy GUIs. I compiled and ran it on a Win98 box, transferred it over to a Linux box, and it worked spiffy except for a few font complaints. I had issues creating a jar file, though, and eventually got sidetracked away from the language altogether.
In the end, Java seems like an abusive friend -- I keep going back, and it keeps giving me pain. Haven't gotten around to running Eclipse and trying again. Not sure if it's safe to give this 'relationship' another shot.
Re:Still an abusive friend (Score:5, Insightful)
You realize that this is like saying "I has issues creating a
Haven't gotten around to running Eclipse and trying again
Last time I tried, it was really simple: Run the installer, double click on the
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Re:Still an abusive friend (Score:2)
Re:Still an abusive friend (Score:2)
Hmm, interesting. I don't actually think the effort to learn Java is that big. But of coure I already know it, so I am biaised...
As for the jar file, I ended up creating one but wasn't able to launch it from the command line. Something about explicitly pointing to the main class or whatnot.
So a jar file is nothing else but a zip of a bunch of
Re:Still an abusive friend (Score:3, Informative)
Java is about as intuitive to learn as MSVC... while the core language is simple, making a nifty little GUI work is not. It's easy to make a "hello world" jar that runs from the command line, but making an actual graphical applet that runs that way is quite a bit different.
-WS
Re:Still an abusive friend (Score:3, Informative)
man java
and
man jar
if you have the main-class set correctly in the manifest you can do:
java -jar yourjar.jar
if not then just do
java -cp yourjar.jar org.my.Main
where org.my.Main is the main class of your app.
I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that any non-trivial platform you want to use is going to take some time to learn. The JSDK has a TON of docs that come with it. Put some effort into it and read them. Esply the part on the jar tool.
My impressions (Score:4, Interesting)
Java Desktop is gnome with a new theme. Seriously they didn't even do as good a job as Redhat with Bluecurve in pretending that it was anything more than that. I suppose the real benefit is the legitimacy that it lends Linux on the desktop to the PHBs of the world, but technically it appears to be nothing to get excited about.
But the demos I've seen for looking glass....damn. It looks like Apple's Expose on steroids.
Finkployd
Re:My impressions (Score:4, Funny)
yes it does.
-Instead of a nice pretty background, you get a pinkish, zit-covered background.
-Way more bulk than any prgram needs... quickly turns to bloat if you stop running it.
-Violent mood swings lead to the termination of all the puny shell scripts.
-To pass a performace test it will try to load foreign components, specifically, C code.
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Java footprint too large for ubiquitous usage (Score:4, Insightful)
I work in Java and would love to see Sun devote the effort required to make Java *truly* desktop ready. However, I fear that that is not a priority for Sun, and instead we'll see
Your wish shall be granted. :-) (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (Score:3, Interesting)
Sun or anyone for that matter has to be very very careful on how they do this. IYour example "Eclipes", isn't a good true world test. How much memory does visual studio take up? IDE's have always been hogs. On some systems Outlook takes over 300MB to load. Getting the initial VM lo
Re:Your wish shall be granted. :-) (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually I thought he was talking about something like this. [mac.com]
The thing which was added in 1.5 improves startup time, but each JVM you run still takes the same amount of space, unless they say otherwise on a different web page. JShell, on the other hand, solves the memory issue. (I wonder why this couldn't be worked into a core feature.)
,NET footprint same OR LARGER than java (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Java footprint too large for ubiquitous usage (Score:5, Insightful)
By default the 1.4 JVM allows a default maximum (note 'maximum' of 64MB per application, but there is no reason why an app needs to use anything near that. The full Swing GUI demo (a pretty complex app with memory-hogging features) from Java 1.4 runs comfortably in 32MB.
New machines are purchased with around 512MB of memory. That is enough to run more than 10 copies of this app.
If you use something like SWT; a portable GUI library with native code bindings you can run Java apps GUI with memory requirements a lot smaller (Swing is a memory pig). You can run many more GUI apps. If you don't require a GUI, Java apps can require memory requirements of the order of single figures of megabytes, including the VM for each app.
How many Java apps do you want to run - 10, 20, 30, 40?
Microsoft will be cleaning Java's clock with
Why? For now
If Java starts to grow on the desktop as well,
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Fully supported by RIAA (Score:3, Funny)
try {
toDownloadMusic();
}
catch (GrandmaAnd12YrdOldViolators you) {
fineAndMakeYouAppearInCommerical();
}
finally {
try {
payMusicians();
}
catch(MoneyNotFoundException haha) {
}
}
private void payMusicians() throws MoneyNotFoundException
{
if(true) {
throw new MoneyNotFoundException("Sorry, get all of it because we like it that way");
}
}
Name mistake (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not name it the Linux Desktop System, thereby keeping naming distinct between OS and development technologies? Sure, it's good to tie them together, but you need some focus and clarity among the things you are trying to push.
Now, somewhat more contraverial, is you also need to recognize the contributions of the many people who's code you are selling. It would seem a responsible thing for a member of the community to acknowledge their participation by helping promote the name (Linux, GNOME, whatever). I'm not trying to flame Sun, because they've done some nice things with ATK and OO.o, etc. However, as a Linux supporter, why should I go with Sun over IBM or Red Hat when both of those put forth more effort to evangalize open source?
Not just Linux (Score:5, Informative)
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Another Desktop API? (Score:2, Insightful)
A
Re:Another Desktop API? (Score:2)
I agree somewhat with the last part: what Sun should d
Oh the irony... (Score:2)
Startup time (Score:5, Insightful)
They've needed a process model for a long time. That's still the critical piece needed to make a "Java OS" a reality. (AFAIK it still is missing...)
Of course there is the copout that the interpreter ends up in shared memory anyway. But what about loaded classes? Are they shared between apps? I think not.
Of course, applications can be written to become threads in an existing VM rather than intended to start up on their own, but that generally isn't done. This way Sun can ignore security issues between apps within the sandbox by saying well, just start up a new sandbox for every application, and there is no way they can step on each other. Moore's law has had many cycles now since Java came out, and the cost of even one VM is still not negligible, let alone one per application.
Then there is the fact that Swing applications always look so unique, so volatile and unreliable, due to the fact that they paint slower, and you can sometimes see unpainted gray areas, at least temporarily. They make a bad impression, like old cars going down the road perpetually in primer, the "restoration" incomplete for years on end, making you want to ask "when are you ever going to use real paint!" They should instead work on fleshing out AWT to include the missing widgets, like trees (just implement their own native versions on the few OS's whose GUI toolkits don't have them), and screw pluggable look-n-feel. That should be a toolkit feature for the whole OS, not just for Swing applications. This approach is largely responsible for Swing apps looking and feeling so crappy.
Re:Startup time (Score:3, Informative)
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/vm/class -data-sharing.html [sun.com]
What the hell can I even write in the subject line (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm also going to follow an age-old trend of mankind and blame the victim. Really, Sun; with all of the incomprehensible noise that's been coming out of official and semi-official channels, who can blame me? The Kremlin during Brezhnev's dotage was more on-message than you these days. Clearly you were asking for it.
But anyways, if this doesn't include a less-restrictive license on the JRE such that it could go into Fedora, Debian, free-as-in-beer SuSE and other non-commercial distros, who gives a fuck? I don't even mean GPL - even a patches-only Minix-style source license; hell, even just free binary redistribution without selling your firstborn to Scott McNealy would do it.
Yes, yes, I know; those aren't enterprise Linux. But they are what enterprise Linux guys run at home.
If Sun really wants Java to be the platform of the future, they've got to make it possible to install as part of a platform, rather than an afterthought added in after you've already got kernel, services, gui, and browser application running.
Re:What the hell can I even write in the subject l (Score:3, Interesting)
When some Linux developers are so keen and eager to download all kinds of software, do they complain so much about downloading a free Java development environment from Sun? Its free to download, free to use, and you can freely distribute the run-time with your apps.
I remember when, years ago, Linux people did not like to have pre-installed systems, and preferred to have the freedom to set things up for themselves. Have things really
Re:What the hell can I even write in the subject l (Score:3, Interesting)
It is not currently an ideal platform for desktop-side solutions. There are a number of reasons for this. One of them, and the most easily remedied of them, is that the current licensing scheme places restrictions on the distribution of binary JRE's.
It may be that Sun is content with the status quo; after all, there's more and safer money on the server. In which case greater ubiquity for the JRE would be of no concern to them.
But: releas
Re:What the hell can I even write in the subject l (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh come on. This is just silly. If I download GCC, I get huge amounts of things I don't want, like cross-compiling for ARM processors. Where is the option to disable these?
Nothing else in my system works that way so I can't understand why Java does.
There is a very simple and easy to understand reason why Java does this. Java is a standard set of libraries and functions. Java includes things like Swing because that is part
All for Java, but it still needs time... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sun actually GPL'ing something?!!? (Score:3, Informative)
deep down, Sun loves us
Re:Sun actually GPL'ing something?!!? (Score:3, Interesting)
...and netbeans [netbeans.org], though the license was the Sun Public License (like the Mozilla license), rather than the GPL.
...though I'm more an eclipse [eclipse.org] kinda guy, myself.
Re:Sun's Take (Score:2)
Re:Java-less Servers (Score:2)
Java is getting much better on the desktop (FINALLY), but it is most definitely at its best on the server.
Re:Always The Outcast (Score:5, Informative)
Java can use native widgets easily: IBM's SWT toolkit does just that.
Had Java used widgets that didn't look like a throwback to Motif it might have been slightly better.
Then don't use these widgets. Use any of hundreds of Swing look and feels, or use versions of SWT that use GTK, or Windows, or Aqua.
Instead Java UIs tend to be a usability nightmare.
There is nothing intrinsic about a Java UI that is a usability problem. With any Java GUI you can design your own buttons, add your own accelerators, menus, colours, tooltips. I think you are confusing the bad design of some particular applications with what is potentially possible using a GUI toolkit. Its like saying that GTK is bad in general because you have seen some badly designed GTK apps.
Even Eclipse, which is far and away the best app I've seen in Java has nowhere near the visual polish as its GNOME, KDE, Aqua, or Win32 equivalents.
This does not make sense: Eclipse uses GTK, aqua and Win32. It uses those native widgets! Eclipse is a native GUI program.
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Re:Always The Outcast (Score:3, Insightful)
I took an interest in Java for desktop work a few years ago, but quickly realized that Java on the desktop is even worse than Java applets were. (And at the time they were both incredibly atrocious.)
So we already know where this is coming from. Someone who saw how bad it was in the past and hasn't kept up with the improvements: "Perl was pretty crap in version 1.0, therefore Perl still sucks today."
Even with the increases in processor power, storage, and memory, Java is still atrocious, even compared
Re:Java worms soon to come. (Score:3, Informative)
Nonsensical FUD.
Java has security manager features that have been tested and refined over a decade. Java was designed from the core to protect against such problems - every memory access and every class loaded is validated.
The only redeeming feature is that with the performance that Java provides, propogation of such worms will likely be a bit slower than the us
Re:Java worms soon to come. (Score:4, Insightful)
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