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Offshoring to a Ship in International Waters

Posted by samzenpus on Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:47 PM
from the geek-loveboat dept.
Programming IT Technology
JasdonLe writes "Sourcing Mag posted an article about Roger Green and David Cook, who hope to avoid US visa regulations that usually accompany outsourcing, with their company SeaCode, and a used cruise ship, sitting in international waters three miles off the coast of Los Angeles.""
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  • Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TimeTraveler1884 (832874) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:49PM (#12299519)
    Let me be the first to say, "Holy Shit!" Is it me, or is off shoring getting out of hand?

    Apparently, they have plans for 600 software engineers on this ship. Their major point of having them on the ship appears to be that they can maintain low costs to produce software, while only being 3.1 miles off the coast of Los Angeles. I am assuming they don't have to pay corporate taxes to any entity.
    From SeaCode.com:

    SeaCode presents an innovative service which offers the reduced costs of a distant-shore software development operation while providing the operational benefits and accessibility of a U.S. based onshore location.

    Another SeaCode benefit is that 90% of revenue comes back to the U.S. instead of flowing out of the U.S. to distant-shore outsourcing locations.

    But this just seems to be asking for a lot of trouble. Humanitarily speaking, since they are not actually in any country, who protects the rights of those 600 laboring software engineers? Does anyone have the authority to make sure that it's not (child) slave labor? No government agency can make sure that working conditions are safe and healthy.

    From SourcingMag:

    Before you think, "sweat-ship," hear them out. These workers, they say, will each have private rooms with baths, meal service, laundry service, housekeeping and access to on-board leisure-time activities. Picture the Love Boat with a timecard. Staff can make the three-mile voyage into town in their off hours by calling a water taxi. Or they can spend time shopping in the on-board duty-free shop.

    SourcingMag says that SeaCode will treat their workers fairly. That's great and all if we suddenly believed that corporations are honest and will regulate themselves. How many times have companys ran sweat-shops and claimed that they were treating their worker's fairly?

    At first, I thought this was a joke. I am still unsure if it is.

    • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by neonfreon (850801) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:58PM (#12299616)
      I must have missed the part where it said they were forcing people to work here? With the workers being 3.1 miles off of one of the biggest media laden metropolitan areas of the world, I doubt these people are going to try and hide very much.

      This is probably the oppurtunity of a life time for a lot of people to get out of their home country for a while and see the U.S. a little bit.
      • This is probably the oppurtunity of a life time for a lot of people to get out of their home country for a while and see the U.S. a little bit.

        And what VISA are they going to use to gain enterance to the US? The article contradicts itself on this point:

        "...and run a 24-hour-a-day programming shop, thereby avoiding H-1B visa hassles while still exploiting offshore labor cost..."

        -verus-

        "Staff can make the three-mile voyage into town in their off hours by calling a water taxi."

        I smell something rotten here. Specifically the usage of the word "staff". As in "American Employees can go ashore when they need a break." Gee, thanks.

        • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by TGK (262438) <Killfile AT Nephandus DOT Com> on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:33PM (#12299858) Homepage Journal
          If I were them I wouldn't be exploiting the lack of labor laws. You can only expect people to be so productive in something as fundamentaly brain draining as CS if you run them into the ground.

          The lawlessness I'd exploit would be COPYRIGHT. Seriously.... the MPAA and the RIAA have been successfull in shutting down or going after distribution networks, never the root uploaders or the downloaders.

          Set up a blatently illegal server system well off shore, enjoy the benefits of satellite based internet access. Sell movies and music an pennies on the dollar at high quality....

          .
          .
          .

          oh yea....

          3. Profit!

          • In other news... (Score:5, Funny)

            by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2005, @05:19AM (#12301022)
            The RIAA was reported to be in negotiations to purchase a "kilo" class submarine from the former Soviet Union.

            A spokesman for the RIAA said that while they could afford it, a nuclear sub was not necessary. "We will only be going out three miles or so, so a diesel sub will do just fine".

            • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Interesting)

              by Myself (57572) on Thursday April 21 2005, @02:35AM (#12300611) Journal
              Wow, I've been suggesting this for years, specifically to get around draconian copyright restrictions. I'd show movies on it, offer a helicopter-ferried dinner-and-theater package. :)

              Anyway, as far as data service goes, send it straight! If international waters start 3 miles out, I'm sure you can name a few radio technologies that have no trouble covering more distance than that.

              So you can only reach the users who live near the shore, big deal! Most of the population lives near the coasts anyway. It'll be a special perk of oceanfront property. And once you're into a shoreside connection, VPN out to wherever.

              Anyway, who needs an ocean liner to run a server? I'd love to see someone pack enough processor and storage into a satellite. Launch the world's most expensive Freenet node. The trouble is, FCC regs prohibit amateurs from using encryption, so ground stations in the US would have to hit the thing with part 15 gear. I'm sure it's possible. :)

        • The Boat is sitting is US Waters (Score:5, Informative)

          by FreeUser (11483) on Thursday April 21 2005, @08:22AM (#12301804) Homepage
          "Staff can make the three-mile voyage into town in their off hours by calling a water taxi."

          I smell something rotten here. Specifically the usage of the word "staff".

          I smell a number of things rotten here, including the fact that the "entrepreneur" (or article writer) hasn't a fucking clue about international waters, which extend twelve miles from shore, not 3. This is the 21st century, not the 19th, and maritime law may not have changed much, but the definition of "international waters" has.

          • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Informative)

            by DavidTC (10147) <sldfgh@vadiv@vadiv.neverbox@com> on Thursday April 21 2005, @06:17AM (#12301184) Homepage
            Yeah, I think people are confused as to how 'international waters' works.

            Ships have to sale under the flag of a nation. If they do so, they are legally part of that nation, and have to heave to and let the coast guard and navy of that nation board. They can be punished for crimes committed.

            It's just that a lot of crimes are state or local crimes in the US, and don't exist at sea, and of course unless you're on a cruise ship, there's no one to enforce laws anyway. But try to get away with murder and claim you're in international waters...

            The other option is to sale under no flag. At which point you're a pirate vessel, you can't dock anywhere except a few quasilegal ports, and not only can any military board you, they can legally just sink you if they feel like it. (Legally according to international law, that is. Possibly not according to their own law.)

    • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Funny)

      by TheKeyMaker (673862) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:05PM (#12299666)
      Sounds more like HMS Click Monkey
      http://www.clickmonkeys.com/aboutus.shtml [clickmonkeys.com]

    • Don't be silly! (Score:5, Funny)

      by switcha (551514) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:29PM (#12299838)
      Does anyone have the authority to make sure that it's not (child) slave labor?

      Oh, come on. No one would hire child slave labor! Everyone knows child slaves are horrible at commenting their code.

      • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by scupper (687418) * on Thursday April 21 2005, @03:26AM (#12300772) Homepage

        you have to worry about attacks.........

        Sealand Fights Off Invaders (Wins War)

        In August of 1978, a number of Dutch men came to Sealand in the employ of a German businessman. They were there to discuss business dealings with Sealand. While Roy was away in Britain, these men kidnapped Prince Roy's son Michael, and took Sealand by force. Soon after, Roy recaptured the island with a group of his own men and held the attackers as prisoners of war.

        During the time that he held the prisoners, the Governments of the Netherlands and Germany petitioned for their release. First they asked England to intervene in the matter, but the British government cited their earlier court decision as evidence that they made no claim to the territory of Sealand. Then, in an act of de facto recognition of Sealand's sovereignty, Germany sent a diplomat directly to Sealand to negotiate for the release of their citizen.

        Roy first released the Dutch citizens, as the war was over, and the Geneva Convention requires the release of all prisoners. The German was held longer, as he had accepted a Sealand Passport, and therefore was guilty of treason. Prince Roy, who was grateful that the incident had not resulted in a loss of life, and did not want to bloody the reputation of Sealand, eventually released him as well.

          • That was my thought as well, but then I realized that they're going to need a LOT of diesel just to keep the lights on. On land, you'd sinply run off the grid. But on a boat, their entire power capacity is going to be supplied by the ships engines or generators. Those aren't quite as power hungry as when the ship is under power, but with the number of electronic toys they're going to need, it's not going to be cheap either.

            • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Interesting)

              by cHiphead (17854) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:27PM (#12299830)
              it sounds like a good platform for testing tidal generators, solar panels, AND that kite based wind generation technique...

            • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Interesting)

              by alekd (580693) on Thursday April 21 2005, @02:28AM (#12300596)
              they're going to need a LOT of diesel just to keep the lights on. On land, you'd sinply run off the grid. But on a boat, their entire power capacity is going to be supplied by the ships engines or generators.

              This does not really add to the cost of doing business compared to what it would be in India as the power grid there is so unreliable that most IT shops need their own generators. Ships often use cheaper bunker oil instead of diesel so it might even work out to their advantage.

              • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Insightful)

                by EinarH (583836) on Thursday April 21 2005, @07:13AM (#12301416) Journal
                Ships often use cheaper bunker oil instead of diesel so it might even work out to their advantage.
                I think you are wrong here. They can't bunker all they need ashore as a cruise ship is designet for a capacity around two weeks. Have you seen the rates on supply ships lately? I don't know about Gulf of Mexico or California but in the Noth Sea you had to pay ~$15000 a day last week for a "decent sizeed" supply ship. Even if they only need to hire such a ship for a couple of days each month (for oil, diesel, food etc.)it would quickly eat up much of their profit.

                And how about bandwith? The best thing would be to rent a T3, if that is enough, and lay a cable. But subsea stuff like that is quite expensive.

                And I doubt they could get away with the 3 nm distance. More like 12 nm.

                How about security and piracy. Did they think about that? Doubt so. And safety regulations? On both oil platforms and cruise ships everyone that works there needs to take a (two?) weeks safety course. Lots of $ there too.

                What about waste/sewage? I'm sure the supply ship can handle that too. Only $15000.

                And how long do they think coders are willing to stay on this ship before they _need_ some R&R? I'd say max 4 weeks. What then? How do they get visas so they can visit LA? And how do they get back to LA anyway? What about productivity and retaining workers?

                This is a shitty idea.

                • Re:Is it April Fools Day? (Score:5, Funny)

                  by joebok (457904) on Thursday April 21 2005, @07:28AM (#12301493) Homepage Journal
                  How about security and piracy.

                  No kidding - this is really going to confuse the issue! What if some of those engineers download some pre-released movies and then Blackbeard hijacks their ship? Would he get an extra 3 years tacked on to his sentence?

  • So... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lord_Dweomer (648696) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:49PM (#12299523) Homepage
    So this means the Coast Guard won't save their ass? Finally...about time we scurvy seadogs showed the RIAA and MPAA what REAL pirates are! YAAAR!

  • Where do we sign up? (Score:5, Funny)

    by jarich (733129) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:49PM (#12299531) Homepage Journal
    If they'll cruise it through the Bahamas, I know lots of people who'd sign up! ;)

    How would this affect taxes?

  • Hmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by MrDoh! (71235) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:50PM (#12299534) Homepage Journal
    Not sure this plan will hold water. I hope they've weighed all the options.
  • ...of a horde of unshowered, dropcloth wearing Indians chained to a deck with oars next to their keyboards...

    (first post?)

  • Is it just me or is that site slow? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:50PM (#12299545)
    Arg! Torpedo to the server room!

  • A Slashdot First (Score:5, Funny)

    by dcigary (221160) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:52PM (#12299563) Homepage
    Now, with our awesome Slashdot power, we have now set fire to the servers on the ship, and it is in the process of sinking.

    Good job, everyone! Now, World Domnination is within our grasp!

  • Hmmm... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ta bu shi da yu (687699) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:53PM (#12299569) Homepage
    ... I wonder what the tax implications for the workers are. And what happens if a crime is committed in International Waters? What about a guarantee of workplace safety and anti-discrimination policy?

    I see lots of problems here.

  • Should we wait... (Score:5, Informative)

    by rk (6314) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:54PM (#12299582) Journal

    until they anchor it three miles off the coast to tell them the US claims territorial waters twelve nautical miles off the coast?

  • Morons. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Frennzy (730093) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:55PM (#12299590) Homepage
    L. Ron Hubbard ALREADY owns the patent to this! Just ask his friendly help desk people at the scientoloaserfgad
    asdfasdfasdfa
    ASDFAESRFA

    NO CARRIER

  • More typos? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Solder Fumes (797270) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:01PM (#12299636)
    I'd hate to be a coder on the ship during a good storm. We'll probably start seeing variable names like upanddown, backandforth, sidetoside, puke, makeitstop, and soseasick.

  • Oh shit awesome (Score:5, Funny)

    by mcc (14761) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:03PM (#12299654) Homepage
    I totally want to set up a web server there and illegally distribute Windows ISOs from there, just so I can be charged with Piracy on the High Seas

  • They need to do their homework... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Bagheera (71311) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:10PM (#12299708) Homepage Journal
    "International waters" don't start three miles off-shore. The US maritime claims are as follows:

    Maritime claims:
    territorial sea: 12 nm
    contiguous zone: 24 nm
    exclusive economic zone: 200 nm
    continental shelf: not specified

    In other words, they'd have to be at least 12 miles from shore, and possibly (depending on who's doing the interpretation) over 200.

    Also, as far as I'm aware, the ship will have to be flagged somewhere, which means that it's effectively that country's territory when in international waters.

    Someones tax man will find them.

  • Sure, sure, (Score:5, Funny)

    by Hawthorne01 (575586) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:12PM (#12299733)
    it's all fun and games until Hiro Protaganist shows up and carves a hole in the hull with his chain gun on steroids.

  • Baloney (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dpud1234 (771892) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:18PM (#12299773)
    This must be a fake ....

    Notice how their first "Company News" lists an Article-FORBES with no link. If you go to Forbes.com and search their site for "SeaCode" you get: "Sorry, your search for SeaCode did not return any Documents. Please revise your search and try again."

    Besides, 3.1 miles makes no sense as your not in international waters.

    • Re:Baloney (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Thursday April 21 2005, @02:27AM (#12300593)
      Yah, I can't understand how anyone is buying this crap. The logistics simply don't work. Cruise ships cannot remain offshore -- not even 200 feet offshore -- for more than a few weeks. You can't reprovision these things with tenders. You can't scrape and paint the bottom with dolphins. It's a giant expense for no particular purpose. A cruise ship costs many many many millions of dollars a year to operate, just sitting there.

      Nobody can quite figure out what restrictions they're avoiding 3.1 miles offshore anyways. Their chart shows them INSHORE of Catalina Island, for god's sake. They're in Los Angeles County.

      These guys are scamming the press, and laughing their asses off.

  • How about a pot farm supertanker (Score:5, Funny)

    by hedley (8715) <hedley@pacbell.net> on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:20PM (#12299792) Journal
    Imagine a passed over supertanker refitted with lots of small decks (a la being John Malkovitch). Fitted with UV lighting and irrigation many plants could be harvested in international waters. Customers would
    arrive via boat.

    Eventually some pissed govt sticks a torpedo in it.

    • Re:How about a pot farm supertanker (Score:5, Informative)

      by SEE (7681) on Thursday April 21 2005, @04:21AM (#12300901) Homepage
      The Convention on the Law of the Sea prohibits four classes of crimes on the high seas (that is, in so-called international waters):

      1) Transportation of slaves
      2) Piracy (private acts of violence, detention, or depredation)
      3) Illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances
      4) Unauthorized broadcasting

      Now, only 1 and 2 allow a boarding by any nation regardless of the ship's flag (though 4 allows any nation receiving the signals or interference from them to board). However, all countries are obligated to cooperate in the supression of all four; somebody will call your ship's flag country and get their cooperation.

      What if your ship isn't under any country's flag? Well, ships without nationality are subject to boarding at any time by any nation, merely for being without nationality.

      On the oceans, the only times you are not subject to the laws of one country are when you're subject to the laws of more than one country; the only times you are not subject to the laws of a specific country or countries is when you are subject to the laws of any country.

  • I hereby christen their second ship (Score:5, Funny)

    by katana (122232) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @11:59PM (#12299991) Homepage
    Sea++.

    Thank you. I'm here all week.

  • New excuse for delayed releases: (Score:5, Funny)

    by Clark_Griswold (692490) on Thursday April 21 2005, @12:20AM (#12300074)


    Scurvy.

  • Like (Score:5, Funny)

    by Renraku (518261) on Thursday April 21 2005, @01:06AM (#12300277) Homepage
    Here's what I'd like to see.

    Week 1: Operations launch. Works getting done. Going well.

    Week 2: Work is better.

    Week 3: Pirates came in and confiscated all our computers and electronic equipment. Called the coast guard. I think I heard them laughing in the background.

    Week 4: We've drifted into China due to a complete lag of navigation or ship control systems. I, for one, welcome our new communist overlords.

    • Re:International Waters (Score:4, Informative)

      by slashdot_commentator (444053) on Wednesday April 20 2005, @10:56PM (#12299608) Journal
      No, the U.S. considers the fishing, mineral, and sphere of influence within 100-150 nautical miles. U.S. LAW only applies to within 3 miles to shore. The only thing backing up this position is the 15 carrier taskgroups it can call upon. That's pretty much enough so that the U.N. doesn't want to make an issue of it.

      • More like Navy than pleasure ship (Score:5, Interesting)

        by AHumbleOpinion (546848) on Thursday April 21 2005, @02:06AM (#12300538) Homepage
        um... you do realize it's a freaking pleasure ship, pleasure being the primary word here. The entire boat was designed for people to have fun on, you make it sound like a jail.

        The pleasure does not derive from the ship itself, it derives from the crew that is there to care for you and to provide you with luxury. The pleasure also derives from the ship being something new and different.

        If you want a ship that is a more appropriate comparison think the navy. You get food, quarters, laundry, exercise room, etc. Yet the chaplains have to keep an eye out for the kids on their first cruise getting suicidal. A shipboard workplace gets old very fast.

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