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Hiring Is Up in Silicon Valley for High-Skill Jobs

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Wed Mar 01, 2006 02:27 AM
from the real-estate-still-unreasonable dept.
Programming Technology IT
Carl Bialik writes to tell us the Wall Street Journal is reporting that five years after the dot-com burst, job growth is finally returning to Silicon Valley. From the article: "Doug Henton, an economist and co-author of the report, says with the growth in these creative engineering jobs, a new face of Silicon Valley is emerging. 'Ten years ago, this was an engineering Valley that pumped out chips and computers,' he says. 'Now it's all about creative tech and staying on the cutting edge.'"
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  • I'm in San Francisco right now, and can vouch for that. When was the last time you heard the word recesion? When was the last time you heard it mentioned in the same sentence as the U.S. economy? People are very positive, there are a lot of new ideas, new startups, and money to fund them. Sure, most of them will fail, but that is how it's meant to be.
  • Yay, would this mean outsourcing is going down, or that the industry is growing? Also, does this mean that it's actually worth it for me to continue my education and get a degree in Computer Engineering?

    If you think it's worth it, you've never tried CS1721. . . intro to commenting
    • No, you'd make more money as a pharmacist. Or an optometrist. Ancillary industries are where the real money is :)
    • No, read the article. Basically Silicon Valley is growing, but it is becoming much more "top heavy" as it were; they are hiring very skilled engineers and creative types while outsourcing the grunt work for the most part to India. Of courese this has long term implications, but thats another story.

    • offshoring is stronger than ever (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Travoltus (110240) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @03:04AM (#14824760) Journal
      They're farming out the lower end jobs overseas.

      It used to be that a single mom could hop on the IT train and start out as a call center rep, then get trained within as a black box software tester, then a glass box tester (where you get more familiar with code), and then a program (er, design and development) manager.

      You can't do that any more.

      The kind of jobs they're hiring for now requires the kind of skills only a handfull of the human population can get into.

      Web engineering? Product development? Creative and innovation services? That's highly competitive stuff, if everyone takes that as a course in college they're still only going to hire one out of ten: the best of the best. Hire mister second place web engineer or innovator and you are doomed to make a product your competition will eat alive in the marketplace. By nature these jobs can only be done well by the winner in a long line of competitors. Think: ten people and one chair in a game of musical chairs.

      There is a lot of talent out there that will no longer be tapped. There are a lot of good workers who will no longer contribute to the tech industry at all because they didn't win the cut throat competition for #1 product designer; people who would be quite good at software bug hunting and even customer support. Someone is still doing those jobs, they will never be obsolete - it's just not us Americans any more.

      Steve Levy is right - a lack of diversity in the job force puts you at a far greater risk during a downturn. Oh but if he had any idea how truly right he is.

      Here is a clue for everyone. There is not a single job mentioned in that article that cannot be done equally as well overseas for pennies on the US dollar. As time wears on, look to see all those engineering, web engineering, product development, and all creativity related jobs, can be done overseas.

      The defenders of offshoring also lie a little bit in this story. They imply that offshoring caused a rise in the number of higher end jobs. That is untrue. Technology caused that. There's nothing here that actually shows that offshoring caused a rise in higher end jobs. Offshoring or not, that was going to happen anyway. Their numbers (the replacement figures) were off, too. NetFlix was said to have 100 customer service jobs in 2000. The implication in the article is that we'd only have 100 cust service jobs in 2005. Hardly. Netflix's customer base has grown dramatically. They would have seen dramatic growth in customer service work if they hadn't, undoubtedly, gone overseas. Well, ladies and gentlemen, all I have to say to that is good luck finding a customer service rep at Netflix who will understand your English. And keep an eye on your credit report too. Whatever country whose data center is now processing your information for Netflix is not within the FBI's jurisdiction. If some goon sells your information offshore, guess what? The FBI will never have any authority to bust that sucker. You have to beg that country to arrest them. Good luck. Hope you like your rental movie.

      On the other hand, rumor has it (and I cannot really substantiate this) that companies like DVD Empire outsource their customer support in the US to cheaper areas to cut costs. Again, that is what I heard from a self described employee. I say this is highly ethical.

      Another alarming note? The article noted another truth: employers are now looking for Master's and PhD's. Soon you will need a post graduate degree to get into the field. What will you do when the water line moves up to PhD's? What degree is higher than a PhD?

      Oh, and I forgot. This article does not mention the not so trivial percentage of lower paid H1B workers hired into silicon valley's work force.

      This "solid" article is little more than a cosmic sieve with holes big enough for small moons to sift through...
      • When hiring, I don't care what qualifications a person has, if they are the best and know their stuff, then I want to work with them.

        Bigger companies might care about qualifications, but smaller ones want people who know what they are doing and can problem solve quickly, not some kid from uni with a degree (I went to uni and know how easy they are).

        Experience and enthusiasm count, not drive to become a middle manager on a bloated salary
        • I don't care what qualifications a person has, if they are the best and know their stuff,

          Those are qualifications. Perhaps you meant credentials?

          -jcr
        • That's great. Who doesn't want to work with someone knowledgeable and competent?

          But no one starts out that way. You need to start off in an entry level position with little knowledge, some competence and a whole lot of ignorance.

          Now, what happens when all those entry-level jobs are sent overseas? The flow is interrupted. Your supply of Knowledgeable and Competent people will start to dwindle.

          Employers that advertise "Entry Level" positions that require skills and experience are messed up.
      • They're farming out the lower end jobs overseas.

        Not exactly. What's getting farmed out is the routine work: maintenance, ports from one OS to another, drivers for new devices that have to implement a well-known API, etc. This isn't necessarily low-end work. It's the work which one can readily specify well enough to farm out.

        -jcr
        • People doing routine jobs become people doing creative jobs. That's where most creativity comes from. Generally speaking, you have to have some experience working in the industry before you can start "innovating."

          Mark this post. You tell me how long it takes to start college right now and get a BS / Master's degree for the luke warm or hot jobs of today. You get to name the job, too. I'll accept that number. By this time that many years from now, the job you named, will be on its way overseas and hiring in

    • Re:WOOT (Score:3, Insightful)

      by MrAnnoyanceToYou (654053)
      If you love computer programming, there will generally be a job for you somewhere because you will be decently good at it. (at the least) If you are in it for the money, the games, or the chicks, go get an accounting degree. Programming is more of a calling / obsession than a skill, and I wish I had it. Those with the calling are often extremely valuable and sought after... It just takes a while. If you love what you are studying and love to code and love to build, keep it up. If you just want the mon


      • Seems you hate the liberal arts, but without philosophy degrees you wouldnt have laws, lawyers, and long term planning. Ultimately you need liberals arts even if just to write all the books and interpret all the laws.

        Math can teach you how the world works but without understanding why, then the world still wont make sense.
    • You probably want to also get a spare degree in outsoursing consulting, just in case. That will stay useful for quite some time.
      • In the UK, Management Consultancy, accounting and becoming a personal trainer are now the two most popular career paths for the most qualified students.

    • "Yay, would this mean outsourcing is going down, or that the industry is growing? Also, does this mean that it's actually worth it for me to continue my education and get a degree in Computer Engineering? "

      The answer to the second question is no..... It's just the same pattern repeating itself. (1998, 1999, 2000, 2005...)

      ... Tech companies are now forced into the domestic JOB market as the H-1B quota is closed [uscis.gov] for the remainder of the federal fiscal year (til Oct 1).

      Hence ALL the squeali

  • Hiring Up! Hiring Down! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by B3ryllium (571199) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @02:39AM (#14824687) Homepage
    People will never learn :) Everything goes in cycles, from real estate to employment to global warming.

    "What Goes Around Comes Around", indeed.

  • Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bigsexyjoe (581721) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @02:57AM (#14824740)
    The market has never been that bad for people with plenty of experience. Our recovery isn't providing jobs for the entry-level people who have been having trouble getting in. Therefore, if you ask should I major in CS or whatever for good job opportunities, the answer is still no. When there are more experienced people in India, I suppose most of those jobs will go over, too.

    • Re:Yes, for High-Skilled Experienced Workers (Score:4, Interesting)

      by guacamole (24270) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @03:51AM (#14824925)
      Really? What other major do you suggest other than Business Administration? According to UC Berkeley's career center, CS grads are still some of the most employable majors with starting salaries comparable to EECS and actually higher than Bus.Adm and most of engineering varieties. In any case, I hope there will be around more people like you trying to convice the dumb "get rich fast" types that CS is not good for them. Then the CS departments will be a much better place to be in without them. All of my friends who are recent graduates not only in CS but also some other major + CS minor got decent jobs after at most a few months of job search.
      • "According to UC Berkeley's career center, CS grads are still some of the most employable majors with starting salaries comparable to EECS and actually higher than Bus.Adm and most of engineering varieties."

        If they're getting info from their own grads, I wouldn't be surprised.

        I've heard Berkeley's a pretty good school and stuff.

  • San Francisco isn't the Valley (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Yeechang Lee (3429) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @03:02AM (#14824754) Homepage
    I moved from NYC to the Palo Alto area in May 2000. That's right, just one month after the start of the long stock-market collapse and two months after the NASDAQ's peak [wikipedia.org], although of course no one knew these things at the time. I thus got to experience both the highs (insane traffic on 101, Sand Hill Road absolutely packed for two hours each afternoon) and the lows (significantly-better traffic on 101--admittedly a good thing in and of itself--and hordes of people losing jobs and moving back home each month).

    It's important to distinguish between San Francisco and Silicon Valley. The Valley has recovered--traffic on 101 has long since become awful again, as today reminded me--but San Francisco still hasn't regained the equivalent of all those bubble-related jobs that vanished into the wind in the 2001-2002 time period, and probably never will. (I've been living in San Francisco for going on two years now and have yet to meet anyone who is working in a "Web" or "e-commerce" job up here. It's like a neutron bomb; the people went away but the buildings stayed.) By contrast, yes, the Valley lost tons of jobs, too, but at least the Valley had, and has, a longtime core of companies that made real products that do real thing dating back to the Fairchild/HP/Intel days. And on the Web side, of course, Google and Yahoo! are leading the charge. They're down there, though, and not up here. Unless and until another bubble develops, I expect San Francisco will remain a remarkably tech jobs-free (but with plenty of finance, retail, and other non tech-related companies) city on the edge of the world's greatest concentration of tech jobs.
    • Interesting thoughts on what is, to me, perhaps the most beautiful city in the world, and always one of my very favorites.

      I find it amusing, though: I live in the Central Valley of California, small-town, USA. My job is largely performed from the recliner in my living room, cordless phone at my side, notebook warming my lap. I often joke that "my commute is only 10 feet long, but the traffic is a bitch, what with 5 kids and all". I make good money at it, but my primary hosting servers are in San Fransisco!
    • I'll agree with that. In fact, lots of people (myself included) live in San Francisco but work further down the Peninsula. I really can't point to any significant technological innovation going on in San Francisco right now - but it's still a great place to live.
    • "I've been living in San Francisco for going on two years now and have yet to meet anyone who is working in a "Web" or "e-commerce" job up here."

      have you meet anyone? I work at a "web/e-commerce" job, and so do half the people I know here in SF. Your right about there being fewer jobs, but there's still a lot compared to most cities in the US.
    • You do of source realize that South San Fran is the biotech center of the universe right?

  • Following skillsets in high demand (Score:3, Funny)

    by adnonsense (826530) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @03:03AM (#14824758) Homepage Journal

    I've done a brief survey of the jobs on offer and for your convenience here is a summary of the main qualifications being looked for this time round:

    • At least 5 years proven experience in Web 2.0 techonologies
    • Certification in Curvy Border Design
    • Extensive experience in collaborative community-based tagging
    • Have own podcast
    • Have own WiFi-enabled "office" in local coffee joint

    and most importantly:

    • A burning belief that an AJAX-powered petfood-fashion-mashup wiki-based user-driven affiliate blog will be the next big thing
    • That was funny! I'm gonna go post it to my blog. Friends-only of course, because that is what social networking was intended for. ;-)

      FWIW, I meet the first two listed requirements. But I got my curvy design certificate from the back of a van in an alley.
  • I programmed since I was 6. I'm 29 now with a Scientific Computing degree from CMU. I predicted ebay, instant messaging, personal sites, and MMORPGS as being big in 1994. Can't find a job though. Talent and market forsight just isn't enough to snag a job these days.

    • I don't understand why people wouldn't get a job in the IT-area.
      Here in Europe(Belgium) they pay big bucks for programmers, but they don't want the all round programmer who are poorly trained, they want the hard-core geek doing magic and who is most likely already working in another company as they're often "rarity".

      They throw alot of money around to keep good people as they get lured by other companies too often. 2500-3000/month wouldn't be the exception.

      If you've programmed as long and kept up with

    • I'm also 29 and been programming since before I can remember. I do have a job in my field CS/EE - if you want a job based on market prediction (which I can do too anyway, as most seasoned geeks) then you should have become a market analyst. You should better look for a job where you can show expertise, or you will be rated pretty low.

      Good luck!
  • Who needs silicon valley? Can't a skilled worker in Saigon do just a good a job? And isn't it about work? OOAD is nothing less than a must for even the most minor tasks nowadays. Code generators and high profile IDEs come for free a dime a dozen - it only takes people who know how to use them. There isn't even a need for PhDs!
    Computer stuff is more and more becoming a craftmanship rather than science. Most people aren't competeing on innovation anymore, they're competing on price, performance, speed, specia

  • Just in time - (Score:3, Informative)

    by boomgopher (627124) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @03:47AM (#14824914) Journal
    Just in time for the real estate market to collapse [thehousingbubbleblog.com], taking most of the economy with it...

  • Real job (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cubicledrone (681598) on Wednesday March 01 2006, @04:51AM (#14825066)
    Really? Do the jobs have:

    1. Pension benefit
    2. Paid vacation
    3. Full insurance

    Career job? Will it pay off a mortgage? Guaranteed contract?

    If not, it's not a real job. Could be hired Monday and unemployed by Thursday. Meaningless.

      • Um - last I checked - CA was a right to work state.

        Yep. Dodgers play in California too. And there's a guaranteed contract here and there in baseball.

        Right to work doesn't mean that contracts aren't allowed. There is no worse revenue agreement than a W-4 job. No business, and I mean NO business would accept a revenue agreement that can be unilaterally canceled.

        When I was full-time I never saw anything "Guaranteed". Layoffs and downsizing - I saw plenty of that.

        There's a surprise.
    • I guess Oracle appears to know what you are talking about:

      "Oracle Database 10g Express Edition [oracle.com] (Oracle Database XE) is an entry-level, small-footprint database based on the Oracle Database 10g Release 2 code base that's free to develop, deploy, and distribute; fast to download; and simple to administer."

      And Microsoft too, kinda:

      "We originally announced pricing of Visual Studio Express [microsoft.com] at US$49. We are now offering Visual Studio Express for free, as a limited-in-time promotional offer, until November 6, 2006

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