Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Microsoft Partners With Zend

Posted by kdawson on Tue Oct 31, 2006 04:03 PM
from the hell-freezes-over-film-at-11 dept.
PHP Programming Microsoft
jesse.castro writes to point out news of Microsoft striking a multi-year partnership with PHP provider Zend to improve PHP's performance on Windows-based Web servers. From the article: "Rather than marking a sudden change of course, Microsoft is openly engaging in a dialogue with Zend, a key open source promoter, and millions of PHP developers, analysts said."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Microsoft Partners With Zend 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • It's a trap ? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pembo13 (770295) on Tuesday October 31 2006, @04:06PM (#16664337) Homepage
    One would think MS has enough languages of their own. None of which I personally like.

    • Re:It's a trap ? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by chroot_james (833654) on Tuesday October 31 2006, @04:07PM (#16664375) Homepage
      Don't be silly. They want to make sure that anything where Linux as an alternative is better becomes not better. They're done fighting everyone and are embracing the democratization of innovation and personal preference. The uses of PHP or ASP don't have to be rational for them to make money selling windows server that run both...

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by tacocat (527354)

        yer a nut!

        If what you say is indeed true then this is the first time in some 20+ years that Microsoft is changing from Embrace/Extend/Extinguish to... Sorry, I don't believe it. There is not one company to have survived a partnership with Microsoft. In five years, if Zend is still Zend and PHP is still PHP and not some dot-net extension, you might have a point.

        I view this as the end of Zend and the kiss of death to PHP. If PHP gets better under Windows then it will probably somehow get worse under Lin

    • I personally have to say that I love VB.Net and C#. They are great languages. Now, IIS I have some issues with, but I find it a joy to work in Visual Studio with C# and VB.Net. Certainly better than working in PHP, with any IDE i've tried. I haven't tried Zen yet though. I've been searching for a good IDE. Does anybody have suggestions for a good PHP IDE? I'm currently using Quanta.
  • This is good news as far as I am concerned. Additional support from a major provider of server OS's to a widely used OPEN SOURCE language can and will help. It is not like PHP is only thing out there now and its flaws are more apparent now with the whole web 2.0 and its corresponding languages. Maybe some support and extra innovation will keep it viable and maintain its developers/users. I know I have been looking to other languages more and more as time goes by.

    What does this mean for ASP though? Short an

    • "ASP?" C'mon, this is 2006...anyone doing pro web dev in Windows these days is using ASP.NET; it's a lot different than the old ASP/Perl/PHP scripting environments.

      (So, you're probably right; if you're still using ASP, not much is going to stop you now.)
    • Maybe some support and extra innovation will keep it viable and maintain its developers/users.

      If PHP developers wanted "innovation", PHP wouldn't have succeeded as much as it did. PHP has succeeded because it's for people to develop web applications with, and to do so with little more than a text editor. It also doesn't look to me like PHP needs more support (and what kind support would Microsoft offer anyway?).

      This is simply what it looks like: Microsoft wants PHP to run better on Windows servers so that

    • Hmm... so much PHP hatred. I'm a little surprised here. Although, I cannot disagree with people's claim on how PHP gets used to pump out complete slop by new-to-programming people, what would be the open-source choice if not PHP?

      The only other thing I can think of is JSP, which I started working with once, but soon grew a bit frustrated with trying to get it to work on Windows in a "WAMP" environment. I also found that it was just confusing to organize, and this comes from a programmer who spent most o

  • This makes me happy. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by KermodeBear (738243) on Tuesday October 31 2006, @04:13PM (#16664483) Homepage
    As a PHP developer this could be a great boon for me. With Microsoft actively getting involved with PHP, perhaps more companies will consider using it. More jobs opportunities for me - whee! Maybe I can get out of Buffalo...

    That said, this confuses me a bit:

    Technical improvements by Zend and Microsoft to make it easier to run PHP on Windows[...]
    Since when was it difficult to run PHP on Windows? I have written code that runs on both Linux and Windows machines, and, like most scripting languages, "it just works". There are a few extensions (like process control) that don't work under Windows - but the need for those extensions is very small. For a vast majority of scripting you don't need to do anything differently under Linux than you do Windows. I wish the article would have gone more in depth about these alleged problems.

    • It says in the article:

      '"PHP has always worked on Windows. The problem is that it never performed very well," Andi Gutmans, Zend's co-founder and chief technology officer, said in an interview'

      It seems MS is looking to improve performance, not to get it working in the first place. Any performance gains on any platform is great news for the language.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by MBCook (132727)

      My gut is telling me that this is just to stop customer hemorrhaging. People say "We like PHP and that's what our code is in so we can't use Windows" or "... but Linux is faster" (just a guess). So MS is helping with PHP so people can either switch FROM Linux to Windows and easily keep/develop PHP, or just get better performance for their current code (if there is a very measurable performance hit from running Windows, they'd want that fixed).

      Either way it's good, but that's my guess why they are doing thi

    • Since when was it difficult to run PHP on Windows? I have written code that runs on both Linux and Windows machines, and, like most scripting languages, "it just works". There are a few extensions (like process control) that don't work under Windows - but the need for those extensions is very small. For a vast majority of scripting you don't need to do anything differently under Linux than you do Windows. I wish the article would have gone more in depth about these alleged problems.

      Take this with a grain of
    • Hey - don't knock Buffalo - some of are happy with our new Jumping-Slug Sabres logo (http://www.sabres.com/ [sabres.com]). Really though... You can make plenty of $ in Buffalo (and considering the cost of living here, you'd be a fool to go work in a high-demand area.) Just pick a more in-demand technology...
      • some of are happy with our new Jumping-Slug Sabres logo

        I always thought it looked like Barney Rubble's hair, or a furry version of the Chargers logo...
    • This is probably aimed at improving the build environment for PHP on Windows, OS integration (deeper integration with .Net, etc). These things are important to Windows developers, though not as much to PHP developers who don't think in terms of what box the code runs on.
    • Possibly integrating PHP into the Windows Scripting Host similar to Active Perl. That could be interesting as it would expose PHP to WMI and other resources made available via the Windows Scripting Host.

    • Microsoft is notorious for not following set standards and instead doing what it think is right/better/best, causing the development community to work twice as hard to support it in some cases.

      What worries me is that this will turn into some bastardization of PHP that is "tuned" for Windows and then requires hacks or work arounds to get things to work on other platforms.

      What might actually be worse would be features that are only available in PHP running on Windows. *sigh*

      Also, a little OT, I admit

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Mad Merlin (837387)

        As for MySQL - it's now owned by Oracle and IMHO Larry Ellison has a far better shot at being the antichrist than Bill Gates. Yes we have all that GPLd code but the company, talent and non-GPL rights to the code are owned by Oracle.

        Um... no. Oracle bought InnoDB and BDB (both separate projects from MySQL), two of the many backend formats that MySQL can use. It still has MyISAM and a few others, not to mention that Oracle hasn't bought MySQL itself or anything it owns.

  • php is a very popular language (even if, in my opinion, a badly structured one), thus by making Windows the most popular platform for it, you've suddenly got an increase in demand. Microsoft don't do anything for free, and this is no exception.

  • In other news... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Karem Lore (649920) on Tuesday October 31 2006, @04:35PM (#16664851)
    Microsoft has just announced a new language said to potentially drive the future of the web...

    drum roll

    drum roll

    PHP Sharp, or PHP# for short...

  • Special MS PHP? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pestilence669 (823950) on Tuesday October 31 2006, @04:39PM (#16664921)
    This isn't good news for any party. Is this the beginning of a "special" PHP version for Windows? It's not as far fetched as it sounds.

    C++ in Visual Studio is not exactly standards compliant. It's definitely Microsoft specific, as is their: HTML, CSS, XML, Java, TCP/IP stack, HTTP negotiation, LDAP, kerberos, DNS, DHCP, etc., etc. Every "standard" and language they adopt gets altered, even when completely unnecessary.

    What on earth will they do to PHP? Assimilate it into .NET?

    What PHP really needs is a MS SQL driver that doesn't leak memory and cause access violations. Microsoft hasn't supported their C library in years. PHP doesn't need any "help" from Microsoft, IMHO.

  • a match made in vulnerability hell (Score:3, Funny)

    by greenpotatochip (958150) on Tuesday October 31 2006, @04:48PM (#16665041) Journal
    holy vulnerable software batman, the riddler and the joker have joined forces!
  • that they are afraid that Zend will sue them because "Zune" is so similar--so they're making nice.
  • This is squarely aimed against OSS and all it stands for.
    Desktop Linux hasn't caught on. Not yet. But PHP has. Like it or not, PHP has turned into the king of the server-side. MS must have noticed how much it's gnawing at ASPs marketshare (Just did a comment on that [slashdot.org] the other day). PHP even has turned into a brigdehead for Linux at this point. That they'd team up with Zend is an unexpected but somewhat fitting move.
    I've never really known what to make of Zend. Their PHP groundwork is fair enough, but all-i
  • Seems microsoft has chosen another target to 'embrace, extend, destroy'.

  • Oh god (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Mancat (831487)
    Do you think that Microsoft would just like to improve IIS' PHP support? You know, so that they might attract more web developers to the IIS platform naturally?

    God no. They must be trying to destroy it.

    Slashdot logic.

  • A good thing (Score:4, Informative)

    by talonyx (125221) <mike DOT sollanych AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday October 31 2006, @05:46PM (#16665817)
    PHP is licensed under the GPL, so we don't need to worry about an MS-proprietary version of it. They'd have to reimplement the system from scratch, and who would bother to do that when they have ASP.NET?

    I for one would love to see .NET support for PHP so I could use it to write native Windows GUI programs, access ODBC in a more robust fashion, and get more access to Windows-internal stuff that is so easy to do on Unix but so hard to do on Windows.
    A bit of performance would be nice, but chances are I will keep running my servers on Debian simply because that's all they are: brainless webservers with muscle and nothing holding them back.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Jaegar (518423) *
      You left out their favorite phase. Extinguish.
      • Microsoft will be coming up with a brand new language for IIS and web developers, it will be called PHP# Dot Net. PHP# Dot Net will be bundled in the next Visual Studio upgrade. It's part of Microsoft's strategy to innovate.

        • I would love to see PHP.net (or PHP# .net). A standardized framework and huge code library would beat the hell out of the billion frameworks and Pear that we have today.
            • I'm talking about ASP.net being Microsoft's standard PHP framework. .net is a library/framework, not a language.

              Platform: Windows
              Language: C#/PHP/VB
              Library: .net
              Framework: .net
    • My "personal" websites are hosted on Linux, but I dev them on a Windows XP platform running Apache, MySQL and PHP. In my real job, I use mostly use "WIM." (Windows, IIS, MySQL and .NET web development)

      I like PHP for my toy applications, but I can see where something Zend would be needed if you wanted to something serious with PHP. (Same reason I'd only use "modperl" if I ever wrote another perl-based web app.)
    • LAMP works fine with Perl. Or even Python.

      That reminds me, I've needed an excuse to learn one of those for a while now...
    • Seriously. Every time Microsoft partners with someone it means they're doomed. Remember when Microsoft "partnered" with any of these guys?

      * Netscape [albion.com]
      * Palm [redmondmag.com]
      * Symantec and McAfee [physorg.com]
      * Sendo [theregister.co.uk]

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by LVWolfman (301977)
        Here's another more fitting example... Remember the Sybase partnership? Wasn't too many years before MS released MS SQL which "just happens" to be totally Sybase compatible and then didn't need Sybase. How about Foxpro?

        I remember reading some interviews with companies whose technology had been "innovated" by Microsoft. One guy said (paraphrased), "It's a catch-22. If you partner with them, they get cheap access to your technology and take it from you. If you don't partner with them, they'll go to your c
    • "Pulling Zend off my Apache box now. Embrace, Extend, Extinguish isn't going to get me this time."

      The fact that you can pull it off of your apache box at the drop of a hat when righteous indignation strikes means you aren't using it for a single thing that is important. Am I supposed to be impressed that you're taking a stand by removing a product you're not really using?
    • What language doesn't have criticism? :)
      • After using PHP for 4 years, I can say with some authority that it's complete shit. They're supposed to be fixing some of the most serious design flaws in PHP 6, but I don't think I'll still be using it by then.
      • It has lots of syntactic sugar and the ability to hack together a quick and dirty app in little time. Like VB is great for rapid prototyping and the creation of small utility apps where C++ would be overkill PHP is great for rapid prototyping and quick and/or temporary scripts.

        PHP is no [insert your favourite script language here], but like VB it does have its place. It could use a major overhaul, but the concept makes sense. (Also, PHP makes for a somewhat useful generic preprocessor. Not the prettiest s

      • poorly designed, not powerful, and encouraging bad coding practices.

        Despite your sarcasm, I would actually have to agree to some degree.

        PHP is a hodge-podge of functions that lack much consistency (compare in_array(needle, haystack) with, say, strpos(haystack, needle)) and when coding a real site with classes and such you still have to code within the confines of "we're escaping out of HTML into PHP mode" with the <? and ?> tags in *every* file. This promotes and encourages combining display with log

        • > IMHO, "aliasing" is the worst thing to happen to PHP because you have to go *out of your way* to pass an object by reference instead of by copy

          The whole pass by value thing was what drove me away permanently from PHP years ago, but I thought PHP fixed that behavior in PHP5. Am I mistaken?
    • Plenty good will come of this. With an improved PHP it's now easier for ASP shops to migrate to PHP. It's now possible for a slow migration instead of having to change everything over at once. I've had several potential clients come to me with exactly this problem "we want to move to PHP but we don't want to run 2 servers".

      The funny thing is that even with the current speed penalty PHP has become the second most popular web programming language on windows servers.
    • They'd be stealing market share, people would be more willing to host on Windows boxes over linux boxes if the performance was comparable/better. Right now the performance isn't as good as a linux box.
    • I'm guessing this discussion will not be conducted until we approach the time when someone needs to refer to it.

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.