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Wikia Acquires Grub, Releases it Under Open Source

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:37 PM
from the more-fodder-for-the-cannons dept.
An anonymous reader writes "During a keynote address at the O'Reilly Open Source Conference (OSCON), Jimmy Wales announced that Wikia has acquired Grub, the original visionary distributed search project, from LookSmart and released it under an open source license for the first time in four years. Grub operates under a model of users donating their personal computing resources towards a common goal, and is available for download and testing."
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  • FIST SPORT (Score:5, Funny)

    by ringbarer (545020) on Monday July 30 2007, @12:38PM (#20045161) Homepage Journal
    Oh fuck! Does this mean I have to read [Citation Needed] every time I boot up?
    • Re:FIST SPORT (Score:5, Informative)

      by Archangel Michael (180766) on Monday July 30 2007, @12:42PM (#20045231) Journal
      Not the bootloader
          • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

            *That* doesn't suck, GRUB does. I have no idea why Debian distros have such a hardon for GRUB.

            Hell, the fact that it doesn't have an uninstaller (like LILO does) should be reason enough to avoid it. lilo -u and it's gone. Grub? Hope you have a dos or other bootdisk with fdisk on it handy.
          • I wish I still had that install handy. I'd dare you to fix it for me. I tried everything else first.
          • Except when it doesn't work. I had a machine that I could run grub-install on all day, with a valid menu.lst, it would pretend to work and then on reboot... nothing. I tried manually updating it with setup(hd0), same thing. I spent 4 or 5 days in #grub trying to get help, all I got was ignored.
            • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

              I also had a problem with Grub that I spent about 2 days trying to fix. I can't remember now exactly what it was, but it was something to do with a raid controller, Reiserfs/XFS, and something else.
              And when you're building a server, you can't sit searching the web all day.
              Lilo works. I'm not going back to Grub.
  • Lunch Time (Score:5, Funny)

    by n1ckml007 (683046) on Monday July 30 2007, @12:43PM (#20045233)
    That's funny, I ALSO just acquired some grub, yum yum.
  • Uh-oh? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dedazo (737510) on Monday July 30 2007, @12:43PM (#20045245) Journal
    This might be bad news for Google. WP is about the only "organization" capable of putting together a human-vetted search with the Grub software. I have no idea of people will go for that sort of thing (I like my search results from an algorithm, thanks) but if they do, and the search results work correctly (that relevance is what made Google to begin with) then Google might just be in trouble.

    Of course at that point Google will buy Wikia and whatever other properties seem relevant... and then Google will have completed the transition from "do no evil" to "if you can't beat them, buy them" that started with YouTube.

    Of course this might not be the case, but I have trouble trying to come up with a reason why Wikia might want something like Grub.

  • So? (Score:2, Interesting)

    It's a nice idea, but badly implemented. Search doesn't even work (I've tried it before, and it's never worked), and on top of that, today, search throws a bunch of mySQL errors (mySQL? for a search engine?!?!). It's a nice idea, and maybe this group will breathe some life into it, but right now, grub is doa, as far as I'm concerned.

    \ I'll be excited if they make a working search engine. I'll be even more excited if they do work on the searching algorithms, which is what makes or breaks search engines
    • mySQL? for a search engine?!?!
      Search engines need fast searching and reads over large amounts of data, which database would you suggest they use?
      • Search engines need fast searching and reads over large amounts of data, which database would you suggest they use?


        vi?

        If you can use a boot loader I would think a flat file editor would be a big advancement.
      • Search engines need fast searching and reads over large amounts of data, which database would you suggest they use?

        Ldap?

        • In my experience, not so good at fast searching (especially with wildcards) and lots of data, but I guess that all depends on your LDAP implementation.

          Still, LDAP isn't a database.
          • In my experience, not so good at fast searching (especially with wildcards) and lots of data, but I guess that all depends on your LDAP implementation.

            Still, LDAP isn't a database.

            I know LDAP isn't a database, and while I've dealt with LDAP, I never had the opportunity to compare LDAP to a database in a meaningful way. Being its hard enough to get reasonable benchmarks for side by side database comparisons, or even something like file compression software, I doubt that will ever happen.

      • Map/Reduce [wikipedia.org]? (See also: Hadoop [wikipedia.org])
        • MySQL might be OK for small (single-user) installs
          It seems to be working well enough for Google and Wikipedia, so I'd have to say it has both stability and speed, even under heavy use.
    • I'll be even more excited if they do work on the searching algorithms, which is what makes or breaks search engines, not the amount of content they have.

      So you're saying it's not the size that matters, but how they use it.

      Interesting. I'm sure I've heard this somewhere before...
  • I wonder if they have any plans to be part of the BOINC project [berkeley.edu]. After being a seti@home user for several years, then finally following it over to BOINC, I can't help but think of BOINC every time I hear something about distributed computing.

    I know BOINC isn't the end-all-be-all of distributed computing, but it seems they gathered a large following once Seti@home project moved there, especially with what I would newbies or laymen to distributed computing in general. It might seem a smart move considering th
  • wait a second (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wwmedia (950346) on Monday July 30 2007, @01:01PM (#20045503)
    WIKIA is a for profit company!

    so they want to use other peoples spare CPU cycles to build an empire on top without spending money on servers?

    rofl!

    all them spare cpu cycles would be better used for distributed research like Folding@Home and other @home projects
    • People don't have to participate if they don't want to.

      Some people might decide that they like having a good alternative to google. The interesting thing is, if the company gets greedy (say, but putting too many ads, or charging too much to advertisers), it's likely that people will stop helping them out. That is a powerful check on them that doesn't apply to google and others.

      Another thing to think about: if they go public, you can always buy their stock, and then let them use your resources....not q
    • Re:wait a second (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kebes (861706) on Monday July 30 2007, @01:59PM (#20046379) Journal
      I use Google search, which is produced by Google Inc., a for-profit company. I use the search "for free," but then again I "pay" with my eyeballs, since the search pages have ads. This is a trade-off that I (and many others) are willing to make.

      So why is it so crazy to think that users would be willing to participate in a search engine where you "pay" with your spare CPU cycles? If the search engine generates useful results, it seems like a fair trade-off for me.

      I'm not sure what Wikia's business model is here. It's probably not ads, since it would be difficult to reliably enforce and bill an ad-pushing system using software that is open-source and a network that is peer-to-peer. Probably they hope that this will drive more traffic to Wikia projects, or somesuch.

      But, ultimately, I don't see what's so crazy about a for-profit company and end users coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I donate CPU cycles and bandwidth, and get access to search results. Sounds fair to me. If the result is useful and the terms-of-use not onerous, most users will happily use it.
      • So why is it so crazy to think that users would be willing to participate in a search engine where you "pay" with your spare CPU cycles? If the search engine generates useful results, it seems like a fair trade-off for me.

        If there was not a search engine that already filled these needs, with the only "price" being the viewing of inobtrusive ads, how is giving up my spare CPU cycles to receive the same thing from another source a fair trade? This also assumes that wikia won't begin using ads of their own, which would mean I'm "paying" twice. (CPU + ads)

    • They haven't mentioned a license anywhere, but if it is Open Source more likely than not you can take the source and make your own non-profit with it.
    • Re:wait a second (Score:4, Informative)

      by ZachPruckowski (918562) <zachary.pruckowski@gmail.com> on Monday July 30 2007, @02:53PM (#20047191)
      Wikia is the for-profit arm of Wikimedia. A large amount of Wikia profits help cover Wikimedia costs, and I'm pretty sure Wikia pays a Mediawiki developer. It also pays the salaries of some people who spend a lot of time administering Wikimedia, including Jimbo Wales and Angela Beesley.

      There are way too many uses of "wiki" in that paragraph...

      Anyhow, my point is that while it's a for-profit, it's still "for the public good" in a sense, since it exists to support non-profits, and thus it's not crazy to donate them CPU cycles.
      • Wikia is the for-profit arm of Wikimedia. A large amount of Wikia profits help cover Wikimedia costs, and I'm pretty sure Wikia pays a Mediawiki developer.

        Who then get paid in Wikidollars for every Wikihour worked. If they add the prefix Wiki to their variables they get double pay.
      • They are completely separate entities. The only relationship is that Wikipedia's founder, Jimmy Wales, started this venture with Angela Beesley, a former member of the Wikimedia Foundation board of directors.

        There is some synergy, partly because of the fact that Jimmy Wales runs Wikia and sort-of runs Wikimedia, partly because Wikia needs community goodwill to succeed, and partly because Wikia uses the MediaWiki software on its own servers so has an interest in it working well. However it isn't anywhere nea
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          The world doesn't need Yet Another Operating System

          Whatever you're doing is already covered pretty well by something already out there. See the foolishness of that statement?

          Yes. The existing search engines do a pretty good job. However, I've been brainstorming lately to try and figure out what the next big thing will be for search engines (so I can buy a load of stock when something shows up that does this) and the thing I keep coming back to is context. When I search for Chaos Theory, am I looki
    • If the company runs on open-source tools, then you can use the same tools to run your own shop. However, the power of a company lies in its people and its culture, not its tools, and it's very difficult to copy a community and its culture.
  • Interesting (Score:5, Funny)

    by Waffle Iron (339739) on Monday July 30 2007, @01:06PM (#20045575)
    I just loaded this new grub on my system. I got a strange new boot menu:

    1. Fedora Core 7 (redirected from Red Hat)
      [Note: This selection may be too technical for the average user. Please help revise to improve.]
    2. Microsoft Windows Vista (redirected from Longhorn)
      [Note: This entry has been locked from new and anonymous users due to ongoing controversy. See also: WGA]
    3. Microsoft Windows 98 Second Edition (redirected from Win98)
      [Note: This OS requires cleanup to conform to quality standards. Please get involved.]
    4. FreeBSD 6.2
      [Note: Link appears dead. This has been tagged since July, 2007]
    5. MSDOS 5.11(redirected from DOS)
      [This operating system is a stub. Please help to expand and improve it. This entry has been tagged since 1981]
    Use the up and down arrow keys to make a selection, press Enter to boot.
  • by Animats (122034) on Monday July 30 2007, @01:11PM (#20045679) Homepage

    Wikia is a for-profit company. Users running portions of their crawler should be paid. At least in stock of the company. Otherwise it's a ripoff. It's reminiscent of Kazaa's approach to "peer to peer": user machines do the work; Kazaa collects the money.

    Distributing the web crawl isn't that big a win. The crawl is a batch job, but replying to search requests is a near real time application. The expensive part of a search engine is the system that generates fast search responses. That's where you need the systems with gigabytes of RAM and tight coupling to the other machines of the cluster.

    Doing the web crawl on user machines offloads some of the effort, but not all that much of it. If you want to cut crawl costs, some of the query machines can be devoted to crawling during slow periods.

    Remember, you can't trust the client. Web spammers can modify their copies of the crawler to report extra, phony links to their web sites and boost their stats. This gives a whole new meaning to the term "link farming". Until Wikia, there was no easy way for "search engine optimization" types to mess with the internals of the search engine. Now there is.

    Besides, what's the selling point? "Our search costs less to use than Google?" Hello?

    • "We will be posting the complete, current codebase as soon as possible, here on Grub.org"

      Presuming this includes the server code, this isn't as bad as it sounds. Yes, Wikia is for profit, but so are IBM and Red Hat. So long as there is a public license on the code, they're at least significantly lowering the barriers to entry and empowering users to revolt if they can't trust Wikia, which is more than you can say for Google. Even if users don't revolt and go elsewhere, the pressure exerted on Wikia to stay
    • Gosh I guess the Wikia people and investors are really stupid, that they failed to see what any layman can come up with after reading that announcement. Amazing they didn't consider those issues before, and we have to read the clear truth on Slashdot instead. Either that, or:
      >Wikia is a ... reminiscent of Kazaa
      Comparing Kazaa to Wikia is rather over the top as Wikia doesn't install spyware and ad-serving crap. A bit of FUD?

      >Distributing the web crawl isn't that big a win
      >Besides, what's the s
      • by Frosty Piss (770223) on Monday July 30 2007, @03:03PM (#20047387)
        kquote>Comparing Kazaa to Wikia is rather over the top as Wikia doesn't install spyware and ad-serving crap. A bit of FUD?

        That's not the part the parent is comparing. The parent's comparison has NOTHING to do with the spyware issue. It has to do with using the "communities" resources to make money without paying for those resources. But hey, if *you* like to work for free, have at it.

  • Oh, great, so we get to extend the now-infamous Wiki popularity club to searches.
  • FTFA:

    Wikia has aquired the Grub sourcecode from LookSmart. We will be posting the complete, current codebase as soon as possible, here on Grub.org. In the meantime, signup and stay tuned to developments regarding getting Grub going again.

    Translation: Development had slowed to a SNAIL's pace(*), but now casting off its SHELL, we bring you a new and improved (TM) GRUB!

    (*) From: Member Statistics [grub.org] (as of 20070730 at 14:47 EDT)

    Members Overview (see all)
    Total members: 1,049
    Oldest member: 14,016 days
    Active this month: 2

    Let's see here:

    dc --expression="2k 14016 365.25 / f"

    38.3737 YEARS!

  • How does this compare to http://www.yacy.net/yacy/ [yacy.net] ?
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      This Grub seems to be a human-edited system not unlike Wikipedia. I'm much more interested in algorithmic search, which is why your YaCy link was most welcome :) Another distributed search I've come across is Majestic-12 [majestic12.co.uk].
  • Welcome Back Grubby (Score:5, Informative)

    by zokord (1135057) on Monday July 30 2007, @04:02PM (#20048441)
    I'm the guy that started Grub back in 1999. In 2003, after getting a little bit of press, I sold the company to LookSmart. I was hoping for a continuation of the OS license for Grub, and the financial backing of a larger company that could help develop the product out to it's logical conclusion - distributed, open search.

    Unfortunately that didn't happen with the situation, and I decided to move on to other opportunities. Now here I am again, and I fully support what Wikia is doing with Grub, and what their resources can do for the project and the problem it can solve.

    Myself (Kord Campbell), Igor Stojanovski and Ledio Ago (both who work at Splunk BTW) are three original founders of Grub. We are now helping Wikia out with getting it up and running, and explaining how things work (or don't) and will continue spending a bit of time helping out where we can as the project matures.

    I would like to point out that Grub itself isn't all that interesting right now. About all it does is distribute jobs that consist of URLs to crawl. Yes, something similar could be done with BOINK. Yes, nothing is being done with the crawled data. Yes, it breaks occasionally and it's full of bugs.

    However, it's a start. It's the first pass at fully distributing the job of search, and putting it where it belongs - in the commons. Search doesn't belong to Google, or Wikia, it belongs to everyone. It's your data, and it should be your search engine crawling, indexing and searching that data - not some monolithic profit hungry company.

    Go and read the page on search over at Wikia: http://search.wikia.com/ [wikia.com] - Jer Miller (worked on Jabber) explains what they have in mind for Atlas. It's a fully distributed, OS, open protocol dream of making better search. Like Wikipedia (which is non-profit), Jimmy Wales wants search to be open, and community driven/managed - it's not about making gobs of money off your CPU/Bandwidth - it's about making better search for everyone.

    Ideally the current Grub clients/server will go away, and be replaced with something better. For now, you have to crawl before you walk, and you have to walk before you run. Given time, and support from the OS community, I'm sure Wikia will do the right thing here.

    If you want to get involved and help out, start by hitting the wiki and contributing your thoughts. We are going to need coders working on different aspects of the project as well, so think about volunteering in your particular area of expertise.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Real men use Grub. Lilo is easier and limited. Surely not for real men.
    • Real mean use Lilo. Oh, wait...nevermind.
      You misspelled BTX.