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Boy Scouts Ask Open Source Community For Help
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Jun 10, 2008 01:18 PM
from the trustworthy-loyal-helpful-friendly dept.
from the trustworthy-loyal-helpful-friendly dept.
Lucas123 writes "The Boy Scouts of America are looking to the open-source community for help in building software to use for fundraisers, special events, and other functions, for their more than 121,000 local scout troops. Some open source advocates, who are former Boy Scouts, support the idea, despite a few reservations. According to the article, there are no plans for a scout merit badge in open source — but there has been a merit badge in computers since 1967, 'and it is possible that if the program is successful, it could eventually be used by IT-savvy scouts themselves.'"
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BSA (Score:5, Funny)
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
Parent was a joke based on the fact that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) and the Business Software Alliance (BSA) have the same three-letter abbreviation.
Parent was referring to the second BSA (the MS mouthpieces).
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
I know you're not new here, but parent != summary...
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:4, Insightful)
I take it you did go out of your way to make waves.
I believe the problem is when you stand up and scream you are an atheist and want everyone else to change what they are doing to do it your way, is when there are problems.
I think for the most part when you are "different" from a group of people and you elect to be involved with them. That you will be accepted as long as you try to fit in and look for common ground. As opposed to stressing how you are different and they should change who they are, what they have always done, and what they believe so as to make you happy.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
"Any organization could profit from a 10-year-old member with enough strength of character to refuse to swear falsely." Editorial, New York Times, 1993-DEC-12, commenting on the Boy Scouts' exclusion of a young Atheist.
There is a difference between proselytizing to convert other scouts to atheism and simply affirming that one is an atheist. Unfortunately the BSA sees no such distinction.
A Christian scout who steals, cheats, or fights will be given counseling, and an effort will be made to keep him in the fold provided he poses no imminent threat to others. An atheist scout who lives an exemplary life will be rejected unless he lies about his beliefs. How is this a moral example for young people?
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/31/atheist.scout.ap/ [cnn.com]
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
Eh. The older Scouts and adults often end up getting involved with Order of the Arrow, which is by any definition heathenism. You participate in Indian dances, often working with local tribes to learn them. The whole thing is drenched in Indian symbolism and liturgy. I'm not even sure you could consider it monotheism, though it is theistic to some degree. I infer that you think the organization is fundamentalist, but I hope I've demonstrated that it's hardly that simple.
Part of the issue with the article you linked is that the Scouting organization is highly decentralized. Local councils and even troops are pretty autonomous. I know that he wouldn't have been hassled in our local troops, and we're in the middle of the Bible Belt, so it's not fair to tar the entire organization on that one case. The national office will support the council's decision, but they wouldn't interfere if the council ignored it.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Insightful)
It shows that a lying psychopath will get a lot farther in life than an honest paragon. And that's one of the most important lessons in morality you can receive nowadays.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Interesting)
Being an Eagle Scout affords you certain advantages in getting into federal military academies, looks good on a resume, etc. People cite their scouting days in college applications to beneficial effect all the time.
Then the Mormon Church buys them out. Suddenly the organization doesn't just have religious overtones, it kicks kids out that have done nothing wrong aside from having different beliefs. Kids that bully others are talked to, put on probation, or otherwise given a second chance. An atheist kid is told to either lie about something so fundamental to each of us (yeah, great morals there) or get kicked out.
Let's be clear. We're not talking about someone trying to make the other kids into atheists. We're not talking about kids calling press conferences to get the BSA to change the scout oath. We're talking about an organization that changed under our feet and suddenly became a hostile entity.
Imagine you were black, had taken part in an organization that had white supremacy overtones, but everyone laughed it off, treated it like an unfortunate legacy. Imagine all of your experiences and your friendships were a shining moment in your life. Imagine you had taken part in fundraisers and paid dues to this organization.
Now imagine that one day the organization calls you a nigger and forces you out. Imagine the effort and time and money given to this organization, the fruits of your labor, are now forbidden to you and everyone like you.
Now imagine that someone on a random internet message board proclaims that the organization has that right since they always proclaimed white supremacy, but since they've also always received federal funds, your tax dollars continue to help fund the organization that's turned its back on you and everyone else like you.
But I guess that's just belly-aching, isn't it?
You can't hide being black, but you can lie about being an atheist. For a 10 year-old, to stand up and be honest about your beliefs is true strength, no matter what that faith may be. It's far easier to just go with the flow and "blend in."
For the organization, however, the moral issues are the same. Forbidding access to some for who they are rather than what they do is clearly morally reprehensible.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
That's a real straw man. With rare exception, atheists and gays are not out to change people's private beliefs and practices. What they do want is to establish equal rights and standing for themselves in the public sphere, and that is a goal we should all be able to stand behind.
It's rather predictable that people would confound a strong stance on atheist/gay rights with rabble-rousing and crass noisemaking, though; after all, that's precisely the same reaction with which all manner of civil rights activists have been received in the past, be they slavery abolitionists, or women's suffragists, or anti-segregationists.
So you're probably correct that the parent poster got by in the BSA without incident by not making noise such as, e.g., refusing to recite the Boy Scouts pledge which commits one to a religious deity. And that's the problem. Until gays and atheists can proclaim themselves as openly as Christians and straights do in any public or semi-public organization, and not be required to pay lip service or deference to the Judeo-Christian worldview -- without being kicked out, or frowned upon, or generally treated as second-class citizens -- then our work is not yet done.
(Fortunately for the parent poster, his local scoutmasters were apparently more tolerant than the national organization: discrimination against gays and atheists is still very much the official policy within the organization.)
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Funny)
Oops, I just compared the BSA to the Nazis, didn't I? Godwin strikes again!
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Insightful)
Point of order on "quite rightly." See, that would be true if they were a private organization that did not accept federal grants. [adn.com] The government requires grant recipients not to discriminate.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Interesting)
My experience matches yours. I went all the way from Cub Scouts to earning Eagle while being an atheist. I was never made to feel out of place. It all depends on the local organization. I was lucky enough to be in a troop led by some pretty open-minded people.
My younger son is in Cub Scouts right now; in fact, I'm his den leader. His pack is a little more uptight than mine was as a kid, but that's mostly because of one leader who wants things run absolutely by the book. None of the rest of the leaders particularly care. I don't even think the uptight leader really cares, personally, except that's what the book says.
The way I got through Scouts, and the way that I'm working with my son to get through it, is to stretch the definition of "faith in god" to something a bit more naturalistic. Appreciation of the world around us, belief in a moral center of "good" versus "bad", respect for others. I'm comfortable that we're following the spirit of the faith requirements, even if it's not exactly what the BSA had in mind.
So yeah, I wish the Boy Scouts weren't so anti-atheist and homophobic. Despite that, I still think it's a good program for kids, provided you can find a pack or troop that doesn't obsess over such matters.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Informative)
But officially speaking the rule is no gays or atheists [bsalegal.org]. And as long as that's the rule, a lot of us are just not going to have anything to do with the BSA, no matter how tolerant some of its individual participants are.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Interesting)
Tell them to go shove it and write their own God-fearing straight-male software.
Parent
Re:BSA (Score:5, Interesting)
Simply put, the group got taken over by the Kentucky Fried Christians, and ever since that time, I've been rather ashamed of the organization. There's also the major problem of the fear of litigation getting in the way of the things that were fun/educational/awesome/whatever. We'll not mention the asinine paperwork that just doesn't need to exist.
That said, I do still keep my Eagle Scout card in my wallet after all these years.
Parent
No (Score:4, Informative)
The Boy Scouts of America actively discriminate against atheists and homosexuals despite receiving government funding. They can fuck right off.
thirded... (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly, the Girl Scouts' official position is that they have no official position on homosexuality.
Penn and Teller's show on the Boy Scouts was fascinating - turns out a huge chunk of the Boy Scouts is financed by the Mormon church.
Parent
Re:thirded... (Score:4, Funny)
Honestly though, that's because lesbians are hot.
Parent
Re:thirded... (Score:5, Insightful)
When it gets down to the very small community groups where troops may consist of less than 50 scouts, the leaders are parents of scouts, and so on. This is a model where adults lead and teach children -- frequently the children who need guidance and leadership the very most. I fear that outright rejection is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Just an opinion, YMMV.
Parent
Re:From an Eagle Scout... (Score:5, Insightful)
Homosexual men are not the same as nor do they aspire to be women.
Parent
Re:No (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:No (Score:4, Insightful)
They are a youth organization with a charter from congress. They are an acknowledged
military youth auxilliary organization given access to government resources. They are
like a junior version of Sea Cadets or the CAP.
They should be held to at least the same tolerance standards as the Army.
Parent
Re:meh, there are better reasons Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:meh, there are better reasons Re:No (Score:5, Insightful)
By your logic, the scout troops would be safer camping with an out gay man.
Parent
yes, well... (Score:4, Interesting)
Absolutely, love to help 'em.
Just as soon as they lose the institutionalized homophobia and pandering to mythology.
Other than that, I think they're entirely deserving of assistance. And yes, I was a boy scout. :)
Of course, I recognize that as a private organization, they have the right to such stone age views; however, I also have the right to hold them accountable for them.
Re:yes, well... (Score:5, Informative)
I was a Boyscout from '96 to '00. I went camping almost every month. I've been to Philmont. Boyscout camp every summer. I think I've learned more from that organization about live than anywhere else. I have a camp stove and fuel in my car. When I drove from LA to IN and IN to DC after graduation to 'see the country'. I would regularly eat pasta or any thing else I could cook up. (Get some eggs/bacon and have a proper breakfast instead of McDonalds).
I learned to blow things up properly. I can set up a tent in the dark (and now half drunk). I can build a fire using a single match and stuff I gathered. I know what bark to look for for starting fire after the rain. I can cook with cast iron (and at home I use nothing else). For competition we'd boil eggs in paper cups (paper won't burn below the water line). Carried sleds on years global warming made Klondikes suck. Snow shoe, canoe, swim, shoot, high rope climb, I could go on.
When I went to college I ran into some "city boys" that had no clue how to start a fire.
Their idea was gasoline (stupid, diesel is better) and a torch. I suppose it would have worked, but there's a finesse in starting fires with a single match, or a bow drill, or flint and steel. It's like doing in assembly what some people use Java for.
The only thing was our local troop met in the basement of a Methodist church.
I can't wait until I have sons so I can get back into scouting (if they're interested).
I suppose towards the end of my tenure we got a new Scoutmaster. No more fires over X size. We bought those Walmart popup rain flies instead of using the WWII ones that took 12 guys to setup. (And lasted 80 years longer than the walmart ones). Sort of killed it for me, plus all my friends were a year older and when they left not as entertaining. And the biggest thing that killed it was council 'from the top' decree that Camouflage was banned. How were you supposed to properly hide during capture the flag?
But nothing of gays and atheists.
Parent
Re:Boycott (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:yes, well... (Score:5, Informative)
2. The Spanish Inquisition. Took place in the 19th century.
3. Jewish Blood Libel. Not sure what you mean by this.
4. Forced Conversion of Conquered Peoples. And when, pray tell, was the last time this happened?
5. Abortion Clinic Bombings/Murders of Doctors. Please. This has no more bearing on Christianity as a whole than Muslim terrorists have on Islam as a whole. The actions of a few extremists do not condemn an entire group.
Sounds to me like you're the one without a sense of scale. The things you mentioned are either a) so far in the past, they're irrelevant to the character of today's Christians, or b) the actions of a small segment of the population. By your logic, Americans are all bad people because we have a few rapists and murderers.
Parent
Tell them this: (Score:5, Informative)
Or... Does anybody remember THIS [arstechnica.com]? I do.
Re:Tell them this: (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:Tell them this: (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
No way - I wouldn't help (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:No way - I wouldn't help (Score:5, Informative)
"The Boy Scouts of America's position is that atheists and agnostics cannot participate as Scouts (youth members) or Scouters (adult leaders). According to the Bylaws of the BSA, Declaration of Religious Principle:
"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."
And:
"Since 1991, openly gay adults have been officially prohibited from joining the Boy Scouts of America. A 1991 Position Statement states: "We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts." The BSA thus "believes that a known or avowed homosexual is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law."
The language used to describe the BSA's policies on homosexuals has evolved over time. Prior to 2004, the policy stated:
"We do not allow for the registration of avowed homosexuals as members or as leaders of the BSA."
In 2004, the BSA adopted a new policy statement:
"Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scoutingâ(TM)s values and beliefs."
So, there is clearly institutionalized discrimination. The Girl Scouts of America, however, do not discriminate on the basis of sexuality or (lack of) religion.
Parent
They only want your help if... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't it be bit of a double standard if they won't allow atheists and homosexuals to join, but will gladly accept free labor from them?
Hey, they will not let my kid in (Score:5, Informative)
An open source merit badge would be silly (Score:5, Insightful)
BTW sorry for attempting to be on-topic; feel free to continue the ranting... (hello -1 karma!)
Great idea! Let's fight bigotry by being bigots! (Score:5, Insightful)
BSA (Score:4, Funny)
*gasp* Libertarian Linux Programmer supports BSA? (Score:5, Interesting)
Our old pastor was an Eagle Scout, but wouldn't allow us to sponsor a Scout Troop because of the homosexuality issue. Our new pastor is fine with us sponsoring a Scout Troop.
I am 100% in agreement with the sentiments of all the other posts in this article, namely disgust with the BSA's infiltration by Mormons, pandering to the MPAA/RIAA, and prejudice against gays and non-Christians.
Why then, you may be asking, would I still spend time and effort sponsoring a Scout Troop? Because it's the BEST WE'VE GOT. Go ahead, show me a comparably mature organization offering the structure young men need with free access to all of the campground and other facilities.
There are students in my Sunday School class that we've lost to juvie or worse, tragedies that could have been avoided if there was something equivalent to a Scout Troop available. Even if we ran into problems with forming an official BSA Troop, we were going to create the non-BSA equivalent (Unity Scouts or something).
Lastly, you can be damned certain we'll be teaching the kids good principles, not the gay-bashing or whatever most
I say the FOSS movement should step up to bat on this one to show we're not petty, angry little children like most of the comments I've seen so far.
-AC
(Note: I'm only posting as AC to protect the identities of Church members and children.)
Why not use the open source thats already avail? (Score:4, Insightful)
In fact, the software solution is going to be the easiest piece - its the hosting & infrastructure to connect and manage the scouts & train staff that will be the costly venture.
All scouting troops are not the same (Score:5, Informative)
Boy scouts to me was all about hanging out with my friends, going camping, going backpacking, shooting guns, making lashing structures, sailing, swimming, cooking, basket weaving, learning first aid and emergency prep, knot tying, metal working and a whole host of other things. Boy scouts was where I was introduced to DnD, the best thing to play when your'e out in the wilderness with absolutely no electricity and only your imagination. It was a wonderful experience, now as an adult my fellow scouts are my best friends and the scoutmasters are revered mentors. It helped me grow into a Man, and if I have a boy I will more than likely enroll him.
The point is, our troop was nothing more than boys and their dads. We don't have some clergy like the church ruling our actions. In fact the scout leaders FORCED us to do EVERYTHING. We planned the trips, the meals, the transportation, the meetings, the lessons. They merely assisted and guided. What this means is that all the talk I hear now of homophobia and anti-atheist discrimination is a kind of surprise. It NEVER came up in my troop, I'd say a good majority of them weren't associated with any religion.
The troop's views are the sum of its constituents. It's not that The Boy Scouts are passing down from on high that no gay kids are allowed. Hell I think we had at least one in our troop. Did it make a difference? No, the whole thing was about having fun, not excluding people.
I'm sure that the troops that make the news with this, and the top level administration pandering to their evangelical base are simply made up of people who think homosexuality is a sin and atheists are immoral. Don't forget a good portion of America DOES think this. It's a reflection of a portion of the population.
So know, that yes there are liberal troops out there that don't concern themselves with exclusion, only with the boys and making their lives better. I'm a testament to it, and I'm certain there's hundreds others like me. As time rolls the general views of America's population will change, and then so will the Scouts. Until then, denying them them help, when helping would teach an excellent lesson is unecessarily mean. I know that I will try to help if this project comes around. All the boys don't deserve to be punished for what wrong people say.
BE PREPARED.
Meanwhile across the pond... (Score:4, Insightful)
from the UK Scouting web site:
---
Who can be a Scout?
Scouting is open to all young people aged 6 to 25 of every faith and background.
---
- so write them some software.
Re:Open/Free != Gratis (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps they kicked those folks out for disagreeing with their religion.
Parent
Re:Any Gay Programmers "Out" There? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm openly heterosexual. My wife and kids come visit me at work. I kiss her goodbye when she leaves. It's obvious I am heterosexual. At no point do I talk to my coworkers or children about sex.
A person who is openly gay, is not by definition talking about sex anymore than I am. It means they are not in the closet.
Parent