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Non-Programming Jobs For a Computer Science Major?
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:10 PM
from the not-quite-what-you-expected dept.
from the not-quite-what-you-expected dept.
An anonymous reader writes "I recently graduated from a 'major' university in America with a BS degree in Computer Science. I unfortunately must admit that I am not very skilled with programming. I finished with the degree, and I've spent much of my college career working a job doing technical support (fixing laptops, troubleshooting Windows problems, etc). What jobs can I get with a computer science degree that are NOT mainly programming jobs? A little programming wouldn't be bad, but none would be preferred. And what kind of salaries do these jobs typically fetch?"
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Submission: Non-Programming Jobs For a Computer Science Major? by Anonymous Coward
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Geek Squad (Score:5, Funny)
n/t
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny, but pretty accurate.
A CS major who can't (and doesn't like to) program? I don't want him pretending to be a programmer. I don't want him blindly leading a group of programmers. There's not much left aside from IT and help-desk jobs.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
There's not much left aside from IT and help-desk jobs.
And what is wrong w/ IT and Hemp Desk type jobs? Ok, personally, I avoid Help desk work, but I consciously chose IT over programming because I didn't want to work in a cube interacting w/ a computer all day any more than I wanted to be an actuary working in a cube interacting w/ a computer all day (Double major, Math & Comp Sci). And since he's already held jobs in tech support, it should be easy to get hired.
Of course, I leverage my programming skills a LOT writing scripts, etc. and could probably out program a lot of the developers I work with, but thats not a strict job requirement. Figure out what you are good at, and what you enjoy doing, then go after that job. Nothing wrong w/ a CS major selling insurance.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Funny)
And what is wrong w/ IT and Hemp Desk type jobs?
If you have any openings at the Hemp Desk, I'd like to apply.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Interesting)
Got to agree with these last two posts... there's nothing wrong with helpdesk/IT/sysadmin/network admin jobs at all for someone with a computer science degree.
After I completed my CS degree I started in helpdesk/user training. Fixing most problems before the more senior guys get to them lead on to a sysadmin job in the same company. I've now recently switched to a job as a network admin for the same university I studied at and couldn't be happier.
Over this time I've had 5 satisfying years of work, used/setup/fixed more deferent technologies than you want to hear about. And all on salaries that I've been more than happy with.
Oh and I do program. But for a hobby not for my job.
Just my 2c
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Informative)
As a network admin I get to use a lot of cool technologies and watch them come together to do what I need. You use your CS knowledge a lot in an abstract sense. The bad part of it is you have to climb through a lot of muck to get to a Network admin level. You have to deal with a lot of people who don't understand the field and will be your boss. You will work for crap pay at first doing things that make you cringe. But you climb fast if you are smart and able to take opportunity when it presents itself. I am in the midwest, only 6 years out of college making well above 50K.
Stay away from 3rd party crap if you can, stay close to internal networking. 3rd parties aren't interested in really shaping technology, they just want to crank out a product and move on to the next paycheck. Internal IT gets to coordinate and work on the big projects and technologies. It is also far more rewarding to be part of a growing company and using your knowledge to solve issues and make business methods run smoother.
You wont use your programming as much but you will find it extraordinarily useful when talking to co-worker programmers, or writing scripts to automate a task, or just troubleshooting an error.
In summary: CS is not about coding, it is about shaping solutions via computational methods. I am not a programmer and I knew I wasnt in college, I was in your exact same situation a few years ago when I graduated and I LOVE what I do. Network administration is a blast.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
We are all operating in areas that are subsets of CS. As a network admin I get to use a lot of cool technologies and watch them come together to do what I need. You use your CS knowledge a lot in an abstract sense.
I lol'd @ this description of subsets of CS. Programmers, skilled in computer science, wrote a bunch of cool technologies that come together to do what people need, and you as a network admin get to watch (apt-get install cool-technology).
I've always loved server/network administration and security (more so than programming), but I don't really buy your romanticism of it. All the useful tools in the admin arsenal have been created by very talented programmers and engineers.
Admins have a lot of hard work to do like anyone else, but really, there's no pretending it's on the same level as the work that was put out to create all those admin tools (including the operating system itself).
Of course, that's not the bulk of programming jobs; there is plenty of demand for programmers who will never get to do anything particularly interesting for their company.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
Your attitude is very common with programmers - I'm surprised to hear it from someone saying they love server/network admin etc. more -, and it's one of the reasons why programmers usually make exceedingly bad network admins / sysadmins / operations engineers.
Far too many programmers tends to think they do all the cool stuff, and everyone else are just useless fluff (witness the flood of "wow, Google sounds like heaven since the project managers don't get much say" posts to an earlier article), and that lack of understanding means that a lot of programmers have no clue what (often trivial things) they can do to make life simpler for everyone else, and show scarily little appreciation for the amount of work people around them do to work around the problems caused by primadonna programmers that deliver poorly documented, badly written pieces of shit and refuse to acknowledge there are problems with their code.
I write this as someone who much prefers programming - I love it - but who very often ends up picking up the pieces, because I actually also care about operational issues, cost issues, usability issues etc. which programmers seems to like to pretend doesn't exist.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you crazy. There are a ton of opportunities for people with technical aptitude, and the abstraction and logical problem solving ability a CS program teaches you.
I am now in Customer Relationship Management marketing, where we do database marketing, customer behavior modeling, segmentation etc.
We desperately need people who know there way around large data warehouses, can hack some basic SQL and code, and can figure out how to get the data that is locked up by IT into a format that we can use to drive meaningful customer experiences.
I imagine there are plenty of other professions where the ability to manipulate data, and drive business objectives based on it, is a highly demanded skill and can be highly rewarded financially.
CS != programming. In fact I would discourage any CS students from going into IT. IT is dead, its just the 21st century equivalent of paper pushing. Most IT shops are big bloated bureaucracies. They totally kill creativity. Go into the buisness side and actually have an impact and some influence.
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Geek Squad (Score:5, Insightful)
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Program Manager (Score:5, Interesting)
You could get a job as a Program Manager or similar position. They do more design work than actual programming. Those positions pay about the same as programming positions.
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Informative)
Where I work (large company), Program Manager is in the business and writes requirements. Project Manager is the I/T function that deals with the schedules. Program Managers need to understand the processes in the business in order to document them.
If you want to continue in a more technical vein, then System Engineering, DBA, Network Administrators, etc. all would be a good fit.
Incidentally, Project Management is the fastest way into people management around here. So if you have aspirations in that direction, go get your PMP certification (Project Management Professional). While it's "just a piece of paper", for some reason people like it.
Layne
Parent
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a Computer Science degree, not a "Programming degree". You are aware that Programming is but a small part of Computer Science, at least in any decent university?
Parent
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed.
I'd imagine that a CS degree teaches you algorithms, theoretical CS (e.g. complexity, graph theory etc.), graphics (once again, algorithms, physics, etc.) and assorted things. Even networking would be more about routing algorithms and packet handling etc.
All the "hands on" parts of CS usually fall under other categories -- for example, networking hands on is more ECE, systems engineering could fall under industrial/electrical/electronics & communication/computer engineering, but not necessarily computer science.
An ideal CS degree would be very close to a very applied math degree, because of the similarities between the two subjects. You can teach someone who's strong with fundamentals a programming language quite easily (even a monkey can program); however teaching someone critical thinking skills, good design skills and designing appropriate algorithms and the like is very, very hard.
IMHO, that is what a CS degree should do. A little programming is fine, but I'd be loath to respect any CS degree that focussed on programming. Anyone can be a programmer - hell, even physicists program. A computer scientist is not the same thing as a programmer, and that's the way it should be.
Parent
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Insightful)
IMHO, that is what a CS degree should do. A little programming is fine, but I'd be loath to respect any CS degree that focussed on programming.
What elitist crap.
The small state school I got my CompSci degree from made us write a set of programs to demonstrate every algorithm they taught us. And that "programming degree has served me and my family very well over the years.
Parent
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Insightful)
I wouldn't call it a "small" part, not at the BS level.
You're going to be taking a class about about computer architecture, have a class on databases, a couple of classes on algorhythms and complexity, and about ten classes that involve a ton of programming...Even my advanced networking class had a full 5 programming assignments; build a proxy server, build a chat server, build a web spider, etc. The rest of it is physics and calculus.
Saying that CS is more than programming is true. Saying that it is mostly not programming is untrue.
Parent
I agree (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, if Frank Gehry doesn't know how to weld or install a toilet, fuck his buildings, man. Architecture degree my ass.
Parent
Re:Program Manager (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, because all we *really* need is a CS guy who can't program running our software engineering projects.
They'll have a better understanding of what's going on than a MBA person, and you won't be pulling a good programmer away from programming. What's not to like?
Parent
Waiter at Denny's (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Waiter at Denny's (Score:5, Insightful)
The person asking the question tells us about skills he lacks more than skills he has. Makes it awfully hard to make a useful suggestion.
The little offered is that he's done some tech support. If that's your strong suite, then the answer for a newly-minted college grad from Comp Sci is...
tech support.
Then again, if you don't really like that work you should just go find something completely different to do. A solid technical degree has appeal to employers even when it has nothing to do with the job.
Hmmm... if you're just starting out then go find a job (any job!) related to what you really want to do. Worry less about the money or benefits. Fresh out of college you just want a foot in the door of the career you really want even if there are long hours and little pay. After three years in the workforce potential employers care EVERYTHING about your experience and NOTHING about your degree.
Parent
Accenture... (Score:5, Funny)
Accenture is always looking for fresh faced graduates who can't actually do anything.
Re:Accenture... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Accenture... (Score:5, Insightful)
As a former Accenture employee I can tell you that this is 100% true, but a few years at Accenture right out of college sure looks good on your resume.
Parent
Re:Accenture... (Score:5, Funny)
You were modded funny, but your comment is right spot on. Also, their pay is commensurate to actually doing nothing.
If I had a nickel for every smart Accenture consultant I've ever met, I'd had me a whole dime.
Parent
Re:Accenture... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Accenture... (Score:5, Insightful)
Accenture is a good place to start out of college, they baby you, but it can teach you how to work in the corp world. Although, I know of people who are complete failures in life/work that have been there for years and years and can't get fired for some reason. It's the place to be if you want to learn how this world works these days with off shoring, project management at an enterprise level, etc.
Accenture's projects range from $10-$1000 Million, yeah that's billion. So you have a chance to work on some huge projects.
The other good part is, if you are bored, you can bounce around to do other things.
Parent
Re:Accenture... (Score:5, Informative)
My main problem with accenture is that they will take someone with a psychology degree, send them to a 2-3 week training camp on how to program in C, Java, whatever, and then send them to the client to rack up the billable hours.
It amazes me that companies let them get away with staffing such underqualified individuals at their expense.
Also, having dealt with such individuals, it is maddening to try to get any work out of them. The most basic computer science concepts are missing...
Parent
Depends (Score:5, Interesting)
What else besides Computer Science do you know something about? Your degree is only limiting if it is the only experience you actually have. If you have some real world experience then do whatever you know how to do.
BS? (Score:5, Funny)
with a BS
Looks like you'd be perfect for management.
Anonymous (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, anonymous was probably the right way to go with that submission on this site ;)
Entry level QA (Score:5, Informative)
You can probably get QA easily enough, especially if you can write automation scripts or programs.
Pay is probably 3/4 of a programming position.
Re:Entry level QA (Score:5, Insightful)
Just wish people quit pushing the ones that can't hack in CS to QA. I work for a software company as a developer, but so wish the QA people aren't just CS rejects. They need to be good at what they do and good QA people are hard to find. There can be a lot of scripting and programming in QA in the right environment and not just script monkeys that runs what they are told. QA really is a calling.
Parent
Re:Entry level QA (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
There are lots of possibilities (Score:5, Informative)
Testing
Project Management
Product Support
Software Sales
Systems Administration
Programming is just one part of computer science; there are needs for all of these other areas as well.
Re:There are lots of possibilities (Score:5, Insightful)
Computer science has to do with research into computing, algorithms, etc. Programming, for the most part, is related to software engineering (though some programming also involves computer science). Most of the other jobs you mentioned have nothing to do with either one though.
The simple fact that a job is involved, to some degree or other, with computers, does not mean it has anything to do with computer science. In fact, more often than not, computer science is done with a pencil and paper. Software engineering is typically done with a computer, but primarily to run a text editor or (possibly) something like a UML editor.
Let me give one small example: from a viewpoint of computer science, graphics cards really only come in two varieties: those that you can program, and those that you can ignore. From a viewpoint of software engineering, there's more difference between cards, but it's expressed primarily in terms of the shader model the card implements. If you care much about things like how fast of RAM it has, chances are that neither computer science nor software engineering has much to do with that interest (which isn't to say that a computer scientist can't also enjoy playing a game now and again -- just that he knows the difference between the two).
The OP should really sit back and think about what he wants to do. The simple fact that he hasn't done much, or been taught much about, programming shouldn't be a major handicap if he honestly has a desire and aptitude for doing so.
It's a bit belated, of course, but if he doesn't want to program, he should sit back and think about 1) what he's good at, and 2) what he enjoys. He should then try to come up with jobs that are at least somewhere close to the intersection between the two.
Until or unless he does that, he's pretty much setting himself up for misery, failure, or most likely both. Most people have a hard time enjoying being bad at something for very long, and most people have a hard time caring enough to do things well if they don't enjoy it to at least some degree.
Parent
Off the top of my head... (Score:5, Informative)
A lot of jobs you could get with any or no degree: financial services; screenwriter; salesman; etceta. If a job doesn't require a specific degree, and few do (accounting, law, medical fields, anything that requires certification), then you could probably get involved even if it's unrelated.
That all depends on you (Score:5, Informative)
Just my $0.02. Any fellow programmers want to back me up or dispute my claims?
Lawyer (Score:5, Insightful)
If your grades were decent, consider law school. People who are successful there aren't only good BSers, but have a strong sense of logic, generally something you possess if you're into programming or math.
Of course, if your grades in programming weren't that good, don't let that stop you. The practice of law is overrated. :-)
Nothing wrong with support jobs (Score:5, Interesting)
I do enterprise level tech support for a tech company you most certainly have heard of, supporting $M+ installations of computer storage. I've done this for just under a decade, and make pretty excellent money doing it. My salary right out of school was in line with the students that did take dev jobs.
Before graduating, my experience was identical to yours, doing PC work, a little bit of web work here and there, etc.
Except for a couple of scripts here and there, I have not written a line of "real" code since day one.
I was actually pretty decent at programming, but didn't enjoy it. (I was a CompE, not a CompSci.)
I am pretty concerned that it is July and you don't have a job yet. The "college hiring cycle" is kinda over... That means you may be stuck with true entry-level jobs, instead of the "college hire" jobs, which in my company anyway, are a bit different. (An entry-level support tech is going to be working the call center, while a college-hire tech is going to be working in Level 2 or 3, right off the bat (with a whole lot of OJT, of course.))
SirWired
People skills (Score:5, Funny)
Well, you could take the specification from the customer, to the programmers.
If you've got people skill that is.
technical writer (Score:5, Funny)
You Won't Get Very Far (Score:5, Insightful)
A little programming wouldn't be bad, but none would be preferred.
If you want to succeed in IT, you NEED programming. You may not be building enterprise-level programs - but when comes to pushing updates, creating a simple Intranet, building or troubleshooting a compiled/interpreted application or just plain keeping yourself sane*, having a programming background goes a very long way.
Perhaps IT is not a best fit for you.
*For some of us, it may be too late. :D
THANK YOU! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sarcasm...off. I mean this:
Thank you for admitting that programming isn't your thing. Thank you for not subjecting your fellow programmers to years and years of bad code, grumpy job performance, and being a drag on other coders' lives. Thank you for letting our managers hire people who want to do this job, instead of those just killing time.
I'm sure you're a fine person, but thank you for not working here as one of my developers. You are too honest for management or sales, but I'm sure you'll find something good to do.
Now if we can only get other CS majors who shouldn't be programming out of the trenches, life might improve.
Re:THANK YOU! (Score:5, Funny)
Thank you for letting our managers hire people who want to do this job, instead of those just killing time.
...he said on slashdot.
Parent
Re:Tech Support? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:How about (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:What do you WANT to do? (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, well. In among all the cruft, a shiny little nugget of useful info.
Get familiar with Linux (no, not like that, silly). Get some idea of Solaris. Get a job at your local University and work the helldesk. Get to know the technologies, their faults; learn scripting (you're not very good at programming, but you can extract all the pngs from a set of rpms in one line, right? good. you can script); but most of all, get to know how people work. Learn to ask the right questions. Two to three years. That's your apprenticeship. You can live in your Mom's basement with your PS3 and your Xbox and your ... questionable interest in photography of the human figure.
Now, you have Web admin, DB admin, or straight up sysadmin at your disposal. At this stage, you have to choose. Do you want a starting salary of $65k, $65k, or $65k? Do you want to move to the Bay Area for $85k? It should take you three or four years to climb the salary ladder to about $80k (100k in the Bay Area). That was your journeyman stage flashing by. Buy yourself a nice little two-seater sports car and tell your Mom it has to be garaged or the resale value will plummet.
Oh look. All of a sudden without even thinking about it, you're collecting libraries of useful scripting routines. Your personal wiki on your laptop is full of useful Notes To Self. You wanna go a-contracting? Great. $130k+ to the man in the Mercedes. Just make sure you have no nasty diseases and buy an expensive healthcare pacakge. Prefer a salary and someone else paying for healthcare? Go for it. Collect $100k+ and take your wife and baby to the Bahamas this year. Fifteen years of this and you'll feel tired, but hey...
Now you can join the crusty brigade.
Parent