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Jason Fried On Focus and Avoiding Interruptions
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Oct 14, 2008 09:29 AM
from the what-were-we-talking-about-2-seconds-ago dept.
from the what-were-we-talking-about-2-seconds-ago dept.
BigTimOBrien writes "Jason Fried, founder of 37signals, talks about the day-to-day operations of 37signals. How does the company work, and what are the guiding principles behind the design of Basecamp and Campfire? He talks about the importance of avoiding interruptions and the relative unimportance of both physical space and mandatory meetings."
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If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Interesting)
I've never heard of the company, though I'm pretty clued up with the tech world, and I suspect others are in the same boat. FTA:
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Informative)
They are also the guys behind Ruby on Rails. Considering that topic is brought up quite often on Slashdot, I'm sure most people here have heard of it.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
That information should be included in the article. I'm a developer (not Ruby/RoR obviously) and I had never heard of Jason Fried or 37signals
Re: (Score:2)
Web developer? Any decent website developer should have heard of them. A non-web developer might not have had any reason to heard of, though.
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:4, Insightful)
> Any decent website developer should have heard of them
I've been a web developer for 10 years and I've never heard of them. Why should I have done if I've not used Ruby on Rails? What else have they done for example, in the ASP.NET world? Probably nothing.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
What is "ASP.NET"?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I said heard of Rails, not 37signals. Since you know that Ruby on Rails is for web developers, obviously you have heard of it.
Re: (Score:2)
And I have no interest in Java and Sun, so I think they should not be covered on Slashdot either.
If we followed your logic, there would be nothing on slashdot. If you don't care, don't read.
If you've never had a meeting with them (Score:2)
Physical space and mandatory meeting. The bane of all geeks but just how necessary are they and in what situations?
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Funny)
These are the guys who say: "Get Real"
meaning: Release your software with less features than your customers want. Users who ask for features are assholes. We know what you need. You don't. //Why we stopped using basecamp
Parent
Re:If you've never heard of them (Score:5, Insightful)
You have just helped demonstrate their point.
If you don't like their product then you are free to use something else, a huge number of people are very happy with their products. If they tried to provide everything that you, and everyone, else wants (which will of course be different things), then the end result would be a mess. There are *always* people who don't like a product. 37s are just honest about this and don't try to make out that their products will be right for everyone.
Out of curiosity, what did you move to? Basecamp is too expensive for me, so I'm on the lookout for something that that does that kind of job.
Paul
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Stick a wiki up on a webserver. That's pretty much 90% of Basecamp anyway. Hell, that's pretty much 90% of all 37signals apps.
Re: (Score:2)
Basecamp is closer to being a forum than a wiki.
Re: (Score:2)
If you really think that, then I think you have missed what makes them so successful. They pay a lot of attention to the interface and usability of their products..
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Not really. To truly emulate the 37 signals apps, you'd need to install mod_throttle or some other way of inducing latency to make each page of the wiki take 10-15 seconds to load.
I can't say if it's improved since we stopped using it, but my main memory of the experience of using Basecamp was how slow it was. Like 37 signals, my company sells a SaaS web application, though we have a
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry about that redundant - I forfeit my points by answering, I meant to add insightful but not enough coffee yet so my finger slipped.
Yes - it is insightful!
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
We use Basecamp at our small consultancy, and it is just great. We get daily turnaround times for any bugs/issues with the product, and having client exposure and notification on our todo lists and other project planning saves us a mountain of "status check" emails from our more neurotic clients.
These guys have nailed the "do one thing, and do it well" philosophy of designing a product, and we have benefited greatly from decreased interruptions and happier, more informed clients.
Meetings Suck (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure that Fried's philosophy will continue to hold up if 37signals grows much more, but I like his point-of-view about meetings and work flow.
I have found meetings to be an extraordinary waste of time in most cases, and often the result of lack of leadership and/or organizational ability on the part of those in charge. I was recently on the board of a very small non-for-profit charity that had weekly two-hour meetings. The "leader" of the organization claimed that he needed the two hours every week to "vision-cast," but--being a typical political flack--what he really wanted to do was hear himself talk and also to run every little matter past the board so that he could cover his ass instead of just making the decisions he was paid to make.
I quit after about ten months of that. The organization folded soon thereafter when donors stopped giving due to a ridiculous administrative overhead.
Re:Meetings Suck (Score:5, Interesting)
Not all meetings.
I work for a company that has very few meetings -- basically, we do a Scrum-style meeting every day, and that's it. The rest is just impromptu discussions -- we're all close enough that if there's an urgent question, or something which can't be communicated well via Trac or email, we walk over and talk about it.
Now, the Scrum alone might add up to an hour a week, but I think it's worth it -- makes it a lot easier to figure out who's stuck, and who can help, that kind of thing. And if it sucked, hey, it's over in 10 minutes.
It sounds like what you had wasn't a meeting, it was a lecture. Lectures do suck.
Parent
Probably not lecture (Score:5, Insightful)
While I'll aggree with your main point, actually, it doesn't sound to me like he was having a lecture kind of meeting. A lecture at least involves someone, essentially, telling you, "I know how it's done, I decided it's done this way, I'll tell you in detail how." YMMV, but that's the basic idea. The meetings he's talking about, if I understood him right, are more the kind where someone doesn't want to be personally responsible for taking any decision. Quite the opposite. If he can't back out in dumbly applying some semi-irrelevant regulation or rule, he'll back out into, basically, "we all talked about it until everyone was too bored to give a shit any more, therefore we _all_ took that decision, therefore _I_ am not to blame." That is, if a decision is taken at all. Some end without anything being achieved whatsoever.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
While I'll aggree with your main point, actually, it doesn't sound to me like he was having a lecture kind of meeting. A lecture at least involves someone, essentially, telling you, "I know how it's done, I decided it's done this way, I'll tell you in detail how." YMMV, but that's the basic idea. The meetings he's talking about, if I understood him right, are more the kind where someone doesn't want to be personally responsible for taking any decision. Quite the opposite. If he can't back out in dumbly applying some semi-irrelevant regulation or rule, he'll back out into, basically, "we all talked about it until everyone was too bored to give a shit any more, therefore we _all_ took that decision, therefore _I_ am not to blame." That is, if a decision is taken at all. Some end without anything being achieved whatsoever.
Bingo! Damn, you said it better than I did.
Re: (Score:2)
Without our daily scrum meeting our flexible schedules and priorities would never be dealt with in a useful time frame. It seems silly, but teammembers really notice the lost productivity and direction when we can't coordinate with EVERYONE at some point during the day without IM'ing each other saying "what are YOU working on?" when the sprint plan just doesnt cover priority and there is interdependence.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I have found meetings to be an extraordinary waste of time in most cases, and often the result of lack of leadership and/or organizational ability on the part of those in charge.
Such meetings are a waste of time and indicative of poor management. However, meetings can also be productive and useful tool - as long as they have a defined purpose, and someone who ensures that purpose gets met.
Re: (Score:2)
I have been to many many meetings, but never any like you describe.
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Re:Meetings Suck (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you're right that with the right kind of leadership and organization, a company can keep formal internal meetings to a minimum and everyone will be happier because of it.
If that works well all the time for 37Signals, then good for them. But it's important to realize that it works for them to a large degree because of the nature of their work. The "product" that they're producing is fairly simple in the sense that it can be done with a small in-house team. It's feasible for one individual to completely wrap their head around every aspect of a project if needed. That's not possible in every industry.
There are many lines of work where you just need way more people. There are consultants, and engineers, and manufacturers, and code officials, etc.
I know these guys are working hard, but I think they should step back and make sure they appreciate the relative freedom that exists in much of the software industry. It's far less accountable than most jobs and far less regulated. I have many days where I wish I didn't have to constantly deal with safety codes and governmental reviews.
Parent
Who was fried? (Score:4, Funny)
Okay.... That title is just wrong, it immediately made me wonder what sort of talkshow this 'Focus' was where Jason was fried.
I guess that goes a long way towards Fried's philosophy as well :)
Jason Voorhees was fried? (Score:4, Funny)
I thought it was another Friday 13th sequel. They've done everything else to Jason without any permanent effect.
And really, "37signals" "Basecamp", "Campfire"? They could have been rap groups for all I knew.
Parent
But... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:But... (Score:5, Interesting)
Dude, like seriously man - if getting high is not the answer, then you're asking the wrong question...
Parent
It's true! (Score:4, Funny)
but his "campfire" sessions are just meetings (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems that he says one thing and then instantly contradicts himself. Yes, too many meetings are bad - as are interruptions (at least for the interruptee, presumably the interrupter achieves their goals). However, having someone continually IM'ing you (or whatever - all these things are basically as bad as each other) is just as much a distraction and source of interruptions.
Oh yes, and making dumb statements like
It's really hard to change that organization if you don't have the power to change it
doesn't make him sound like he knows what he's talking about - either
Re: (Score:2)
IMs can be ignored, or postponed. Physical meetings cannot, unless you're the boss.
Having not actually seen a 37signals app in action, I have no idea what a campfire session ends up being.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As someone who has spent a lot of time in 'meetings' on IRC, I can tell you without a doubt that collaboration in a chatroom is much less disruptive to workflow than a real life meeting, and certainly not nearly as distracting,
Also, his 'dumb statement' taken out of context like that does certainly sound pretty dumb, but it's a transcript of a live interview and sometimes people say things without having thought their exact wording out, (Which he states earlier in the interview, is why he prefers text mediu
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Are you kidding? It sounds like he has a good grasp of basic logic. Based on that statement alone, I'd feel confident consulting him for questions like "If it's raining and I'm outside without cover, will I get wet?" and "If my front door is locked and I don't have the key and nobody's home, can I get in?"
Re: (Score:2)
"doesn't make him sound like he knows what he's talking about - either"
The other clues were the "I don't know" comments interspersed throughout the transcript.
Re: (Score:2)
IMs don't have to be as distracting as meetings since you can choose when to give them your attention. Perhaps they are interrupting to you, or in your particular company, but that doesn't make it the case for everyone.
37signals only uses Apple (Score:3, Funny)
Which really guts down on interruptions from employees running games and applications.
Keeps em focused.
The article is too long! (Score:2)
I need to get my eyes checked (Score:4, Funny)
I thought Jason was FIRED.
Basic Philosophy.... (Score:3)
The basic philosophy here is:
1. Cut the bullshit.
2. Do the work, and focus on it.
3. Make your product reflect your vision.
4. Sell to users who want simple "just works" apps.
5. Minimize overhead relentlessly, eliminate buracracy. (See #1)
6. Avoid expensive outside PR and other overhead (See #1 and #5)
7. Keep the vulture capitalists at bay. (See #1, #3, #5, and #6)
8. Start small and assemble team sharing common basic vision. (See #1, #3, #5, #7)
9. Profit.
It all makes sense, at least at a small scale. Overhead, indecision, and excessive levels of non-productive activity hurt productivity. Without productivity, you end up without a product, or end up with a poor one. With too much overhead, you need higher revenues just to break even.
Some organization and rules are necessary, but keep them minimal and focused on the end result. Push decisions as close to the actual work as possible to avoid paralysis, but keep a feedback loop in place to correct bad decisions.
Really, it all boils down to two words: "Work Efficiently".
Tom DeMarco (Score:2)
It is remarkable how much he sounds like Tom DeMarco. If you like what Jason's saying, run out and buy a couple of books by Tom DeMarco.
Peopleware, Managing Programming People, etc.
What a tool. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sigh. The guy is about 30 years old. His company has 10 people after having existed through one of the biggest economic booms of all time, and they make software and sell it.
I ask you: how could you NOT run a company like that in the way he is describing? Nobody would attempt to run a whelk stall like IBM, so how is this news?
Be that as it may, he says they are about to become 12 people. Let's hope they're all as good at doing their jobs as they think they are, because pretty soon they will know the answer. Personally, I would not want to be Jason Fried, and I certainly wouldn't want his name.
10 people? (Score:5, Funny)
37signals is a 10 man shop. Why is this guy considered an organizational guru given that he runs such a tiny organization? Your average World of Warcraft raid beats the organizational challenges he is facing.
Re: (Score:2)
They do have a message [37signals.com] about software development that you can read without purchasing any of their product. I have endorsed their book, Getting Real, and you can read my endorsement here [transitionchoices.com] without purchasing any of my product.
Seriously, where is the line between information and advertising? IMHO, if the link takes you to a page where there is no possible way to part with your cash without going someplace else, then it is information. Have you been so betrayed by capitalism that you can't tolerate any exch
Re:So basically.... (Score:5, Insightful)
This thread will be nothing but one big slashvertisement for some company that nobody would otherwise know or care about.
You mean, apart from the several hundred thousand readers of their blogs on management and software development.
Or indeed many people who use Ruby on Rails? They are the guys behind that. Whether you use/like it, you have probably heard of it.
Just because you don't know who they are, doesn't mean that others don't, and it doesn't stop what they have to say being interesting.
Perhaps we should have no more articles that mention any companies, just in case you don't know who they are?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Considering how much effort 37signals put into often neglected areas in the web development industry, such as interface and usability, it's no surprise that many of the Slashdot crowd haven't heard of them before.
Re: (Score:2)
Despite the inflamatory tone of the parent article, Ruby is pretty immature and rough around the edges in many ways, so I feel your pain. However, since Rails will run under JRuby, you can always use that to avoid buffer overflows.
Re: (Score:2)
Pure theft. I know, I worked for the start-up that got put out of business.
Perhaps that might have held more weight if it hadn't been posted anonymously.
Besides, it hardly seems like a real idea to steal, unless you also think that Amazon's one-click patent should be upheld. Did he steal any code? Why didn't the original business succeed?