Targeting PocketPCs With Mono?

That's What She Said writes "I am a long time Mac user and, as most people like me, I have some particular problems with Microsoft technologies. I need to develop applications for the PocketPC platform (Windows CE and Windows Mobile), some simple data collection applications for barcode-enabled portable data terminals. Every device manufacturer on the market offer SDK's for .NET, so I believe this is the way to go. I already tried Microsoft Visual Studio and I am having serious problems using the IDE. I simply don't understand it quite well. My programming experience comes from PHP and JavaScript, where all I needed was a simple text editor and to keep my work as tidy as I could. So, it seems that a full-fledged IDE is kind of scary to me or Visual Studio is not very good for beginners. I also want to keep my costs low and free alternatives are welcome." Read on for a bit more (below) on why TWSS is thinking about Mono as a development environment, and is seeking advice.

That's What She Said continues: "Through some research, I've found that my options are quite narrow. Rapid development environments are available, but cost way too much or have some terrible limitations. Also, I have not found many forums on PocketPC development that really have useful information. Google isn't helping. Some directions would be good.

I have been looking at Mono for some time and MonoDevelop seems a hell of a lot simpler to use. I even started playing with it. It runs fine on my Mac.

I tried Google again to find some information on writing .NET Compact Framework applications with MonoDevelop, but I didn't find anything. It seems Mono implements the Compact Framework, but there's not much more information about this. Except for one blog post from 2006, I didn't find anything else.

So, I ask: is it possible? Is anyone doing this with any success? Is there any problem I should know beforehand?"

Unhelpful...

[locokamil (850008)]

I know this is going to come off as unhelpful, but if you're going to be developing projects of any complexity on Microsoft platforms, you're going to have to deal with Visual Studio sooner or later. Suck it up and learn it -- it's not as horrible as it looks at first glance, and in time, you may even come to like it (heresy on Slashdot, I know).

Re:

[truthsearch (249536)]

I liked the VB6 IDE. I hated the Visual Studio.NET IDE. I think they went way too far in trying to make it flexible and it felt out-of-control. In the first version, at least, too many visual elements would continually shift around as you changed modes. Eclipse works in a similar way, but is far cleaner and more obvious in its approach. I think it's actually much harder to learn Visual Studio these days than it used to be.

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

VS.NET was pretty bad. VS2005 was far better. VS2008 is excellent (the changes from VS2005 were small and noticeable).

The VB6 IDE is terrible, and I don't see why anyone would prefer it to ANYTHING.

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

So just write the app in VS2005 using CF1.1 and download the 2003 tools for CE 4.2 compilation. They're a free download.

Re:Unhelpful...

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

There is no good reason to write an application in C++ unless you absolutely have to.

Re:

[cerberusss (660701)]

Well, most PocketPC devices clock at most in at 200 MHz. So there's your reason.

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

Not really. .NET CF feels very snappy on every PocketPC device I've ever used.

Re:

[pembo13 (770295)]

This is simply not true: CodeGear RAD Studio exists for those who want to develop with Microsoft's technologies

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

CodeGear is terrible. It's seriously not worth using. VS2005/2008 are far superior.

Re:

[mobby_6kl (668092)]

Well then, there's always Delphi 6!

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

You are a bad man, sir.

Qt

[musikit (716987)]

i don't understand how you say your a mac fan but have decided to steer away from a tool that would help you the most.

Qt has ports for windows, windows ce, mac, and linux.

if you develop nicely enough you can make the app in a mixed dev environment and just do final testing and deployment onto windows ce. who knows since the qt port is cocoa and iphone uses cocoa you could end up with a single app for all platforms.

Re:

[lpontiac (173839)]

if you develop nicely enough you can make the app in a mixed dev environment and just do final testing and deployment onto windows ce.

If you care about your user interface, you should get the application up and running on a real device ASAP and always use it as your guide. Emulators are very handy for when you're doing a rapid compile-run-code cycle during the early stage of developing a particular feature, and debugging.

Re:

[pjt33 (739471)]

Definitely. My experience with Java (using IBM's J9 on PocketPC) is that a MemoryImageSource which repaints in milliseconds on a "real" computer takes more than a second on my PocketPC. That's not the kind of thing you want to find out in the final stages of testing.

Just Bite the Bullet

[SScorpio (595836)]

Sharpdevelop supposedly supports the .NET Compact Framework: http://www.sharpdevelop.com/OpenSource/SD/Default.aspx [sharpdevelop.com]

You can also find tutorials to help get you started here: http://netcf2.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]

The only issue using Sharpdevelop is that I don't believe that you can use the Microsoft PocketPC emulator which means you have to keep compiling, uploading, and remote debugging your code.

Visual Studio includes the emulator and would be a good tool for you to learn. The jump from using notepad to a full IDE programming suite can be intimidating at first but it will really help your career as a programmer.

Re:

[That's What She Said (1289344)]

Compiling, uploading and testing on the PocketPC is not a problem and would be needed anyway...

Because I'd be using a device with a specially designed keyboard, a barcode reader and some other niceties (or problems, depending on how you look at it), I have to test everything on the PocketPC to be sure.

I am looking at these links right now. I'll get back later when I digest all the information.

Oh, that's just mean

[charlesbakerharris (623282)]

Going after those PocketPC's with no energy like that. Wait a few weeks til they're healthy, for pity's sake!!

No

[by Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Windows CE developer, and I doubt this would work very well, even if it is possible. Part of the point of using Visual Studio is testing your software and your deployment on the emulator beforehand so that you don't end up bricking an actual device and having to do a hard reset. Mind you, if you aren't comfortable using an IDE, I'm guessing testing and deployment aren't high on your list of priorities...

There are some alternatives:

• - You can use the free eMbedded Visual Tools 4.0 to write the softw

Re:

[nogginthenog (582552)]

The other alternative is cegcc [sourceforge.net]. It should be fairly easy to create a Mac hosted cegcc.

Re:

[lpontiac (173839)]

Part of the point of using Visual Studio is testing your software and your deployment on the emulator beforehand so that you don't end up bricking an actual device and having to do a hard reset.

If you can fix it with a hard reset it's not a brick.

Re:

[MBC1977 (978793)]

"But really, if you're writing serious software for Windows CE, you're going to have to loose your inhibitions and learn to use Visual Studio."

No, he's going to have to LOSE (not LOOSE) his inhibitions. Sorry to nit-pick, but my stats homework is kickin my ass right now and I need to vent (10 Monster "BFGs" are also running through me right now, so that could be a factor too).

Debugger

[MrCoke (445461)]

How do people debug using MonoDevelop or mono in general ? The debugger in MonoDevelop is already missing/broken for a loooooooooong time. And no, writing to the console doesn't count.

Mono can only be spread between PocketPCs by...

[techmuse (160085)]

...kissing or otherwise sharing saliva, or by exchanging IP datagrams with another infected PocketPC. A PocketPC with Mono should be allowed to sleep for 4-6 weeks, and will eventually recover when the virus runs out of resources. Although a standard virus scanner may detect Mono, once infected, the system can not be purged, even through a reboot. However, since the virus is self-terminating, regular performance will eventually be restored.

Mono won't be much different...

[eataTREE (7407)]

MonoDevelop is, as far as I can tell, as similar to Visual Studio as they can possibly make it, so if you don't like Visual Studio I'm not sure this is going to get you anywhere. But you don't have to use Visual Studio to develop for .NET, even if you're running Windows. You can use whatever text editor you want and then invoke the compiler (csc.exe) on the command line if that's what you're more comfortable doing.

Personally, I have found Visual Studio to be the single Microsoft product I actually like -- t

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

I agree. He says MonoDevelop is good, but Visual Studio isn't. That doesn't make any sense. I wouldn't say this to mhutch himself, but it really seems like MonoDevelop is trying to be Visual Studio (which is quite a good thing, IMO).

Visual Studio is one of the very few good Microsoft projects.

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

Now, I think SharpDevelop looks like a copy of VS. MonoDevelop is quite different, from what I saw.

MonoDevelop is the better fork of SharpDevelop. They both are endeavoring to hold down Visual Studio and bloodily rip it off.

If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework ..

[fingernail (915202)]

I've used Visual Studio to develop a handheld app (using C# and the .Net Compact Framework v1.1) and two things struck me immediately:
(a) C# on handhelds is really, really slow. We're talking a perceptible lag when switching between screens; I had to rewrite the automatically generated code to speed up form loading.
(b) Visual Studio (2003/2005 both) is even slower. It always seemed to take at least 2 seconds to respond to clicks, and as for startup time, I was fooled several times into thinking that my

Re:

[digitalgiblet (530309)]

I wonder which model Symbol you are using? We develop apps with Compact Framework on Dell and HP devices all the time and have not experienced what you describe. We also use SQL CE as the database. We have roughly 1300 devices in the field and no speed complaints. We do NOT have barcode scanners on these devices, and that may be a key difference. We use the 2.0 version of the framework.

I've found C# on the devices to be no problem at all. Another post mentioned that they too used the barcode scanner and tha

Re:

[Shados (741919)]

I've made barcode apps for Symbol scanners in Compact Framework 2, (never tried 1.1), and even though the pocketPcs we had sucked balls, the apps were incredibly snappy (they were very complex as far as pocketPC apps go, too). I also never had issues with VS2005 (2003 was awful) as far as speed go, even though I have tons of plugins dragging it down (At my last job I was using Vista with all bells and whistles on on a machine with only 1 gig of RAM, and it was still snappy!!). What kind of code did you rewr

friendly advice

[Xtravar (725372)]

I develop barcoding applications in .NET and life sucks.

So let me give you a few pointers:
1. Visual Studio is your (only) friend most of the time, so live with it.

2. Use the barcode scanning C APIs and p/invoke them, or write in C. Most of the barcode vendors .NET APIs lag behind and suck balls. If you are targeting multiple device manufacturers, that is. It's especially helpful since then you don't need to bundle every one of their .NET DLLs with the application.

Confusion

[WarJolt (990309)]

I don't know if mono runs on Windows CE or Mobil.

Mono is more of a framework. Sure it's got an IDE associated with it, but it's primarily an open source version of .net.

You could potentially write something for Mono and port it over to .net, but to have that intermediate step would probably slow you down. If you're on windows use .net. If you're on Linux(or other unix OSes) use Mono. Simple as that.

Use Tcl ?

[xet7 (943634)]

You could use Tcl on PocketPC: http://wiki.tcl.tk/8688 [wiki.tcl.tk]

Re:

[Linux_ho (205887)]

Don't make me laugh. /ducks

Of course..

[Shados (741919)]

Of course, the FIRST thing I'd suggest to a texteditor+PHP+Javascript programmer Mac user who thinks an IDE is scary is to develop for a not-quite-complete platform (::cough debugger until recently cough::), with an half baked (but with potential...still half baked for now) semi-unsupported IDE, for a port/clone of a framework where even the official version is hard to get info on... yes.....

Anyway, while I feel its stupid, most barcode scanners pocket PCs have built in tools/features/whatever that lets the

Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book

[leftie (667677)]

Here's a link O'Reilly's "Head First C#."

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514822/ [oreilly.com]

Best C#/Visual Studio book from what's in my opinion the best series of teaching books around right now.

Here's the link to free download of Visual C# Express.
http://www.microsoft.com/express/vcsharp/ [microsoft.com]

That's not a trial. It's a free reduced feature version of Visual Studio 2008.

Re:

[by Anonymous Coward]

You can't compile for Window Mobile with the free Express edition, so that's not going to be of much use in this situation. I'm sure the book is good, though...

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

You can't compile for Window Mobile with the free Express edition, so that's not going to be of much use in this situation. I'm sure the book is good, though...

He's a PHP developer. It's going to take him a good long time to write C# code that doesn't suck anyway.

Re:

[That's What She Said (1289344)]

Not really... I didn't make myself clear in the first place.

Most of experience in programming come from PHP, because that's the language that I really used to write something useful. I used to work with web site development, and I can say I wrote some very nice custom designed content management systems (very simple ones, but still I think they're nice). Just so you know, I know what a class is and I can write OO code.

I started with BASIC on a Commodore 64 in 1986, when I was 9 years old. I used Visual

Re:

[ksheff (2406)]

But you need the professional version of Visual Studio to create CE apps.

Problems with English?

[try_anything (880404)]

I am a long time Mac user and, as most people like me, I have some particular problems with Microsoft technologies.

Do you realize how this parses? "Because most people like me, I have problems with Microsoft technologies." Possible conclusions:

A) Problems with your native language portend problems with any complicated subject.
B) It was a serendipitously insightful comment.
B) It was a Freudian slip from a Mac snob.
D) Anyone who tries to read something into it has too much time on his hands.

Re:

[try_anything (880404)]

You nailed it: english is not my native language.

Actually, I considered the possibility that English wasn't your native language, and based on everything else you wrote, I decided you were a native English speaker. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been so picky. So, congratulations on fooling me, and armed with this new knowledge you will fool even more people :-)

Should be doable

[ShmuelP (5675)]

A few years and two PDAs ago, I coded a C# app for my Pocket PC (WM 2003SE) using both the app and my Linux PC.

I used a port of the DotGNU project as an on-board compiler [sourceforge.net], and I think that I used Mono on Linux. (It may have been DotGNU, I don't recall.)

I believe that I ripped the DLLs comprising the compact framework off the device, and then used that to compile when on Linux. I think that there was a switch to turn off linking against the system DLLs, and I just linked against the DLLs from the device. Once the exe was built, I was able to run it on Linux using mono (since they had implemented WinForms, I could just run it straight), or I would simply copy the exe to the device via an SD card and then I could run it from there.

I never finished developing the app, so I never got around to figuring out how to package a CAB, but that should be trivial. I know that there are Linux apps to create CAB files, so it should just be a question of finding one buildable on the Mac and figuring out what to put into the manifest.

Re:

[ksheff (2406)]

The CE CAB file format is slightly different than the normal CAB format used by the desktop versions of Windows, so what is produced by those linux apps won't work on a CE device.

Why develop for Windows Mobile at all?

[daviddennis (10926)]

I would think that as a Mac guy, you would prefer developing for the iPhone.

I'm developing a product for their new iPhone SDK and so far it's going better than I'd dared hope in terms of my learning the environment easily and getting up to speed. The first week was pretty baffling and then it started to come together and by the third week I was feeling very comfortable.

I was using a conventional text editor before I started using Xcode and I can say xcode seems to be pretty easy to learn, straightforward an

Re:

[digitalgiblet (530309)]

Is there an iPhone with Barcode Scanner? I believe that was one of his requirements. Also you can't begin to compare an iPhone to a Symbol device for sheer survivability. Kind of like comparing a Soviet Tank and an Italian sportscar. They both are good at what they do, but what they do is very different...

For a consumer device, the iPhone is the gold standard. Of course you have to lay out more gold than I as a consumer am willing to part with, but that's just me... From a purely tech perspective it's very

Re:

[daviddennis (10926)]

Darn, I missed the fact that it was for a barcode scanning system. I think some people are hard at work getting iPhone to do its own barcode scanning, so perhaps that will be possible in the future, but it's still not a ruggedized device like a Symbol.

It's actually quite amusing that Apple itself uses those Symbol devices or something very like them in their infamous chic retail stores. Must drive Steve nuts since they are impressive devices but look more like something the Army would buy than an iPhone.

W

Re:

[setagllib (753300)]

Put down the crack pipe. .NET is based on the same bytecode + JIT design as Java, with years less maturity. Microsoft only created .NET in the first place because they were legally barred from "embrace, extend, extinguish"ing Java itself. .NET has its merits over Java (and vice versa), but speed is almost identical.

Re:

[Shados (741919)]

Except that .NET didn't need to keep a certain level of backward compatibility like Java did (since it was "new" at the time), could learn from its predecessor, and most of the system interaction is done using native components (WinForm vs Swing), on top of a vastly superior garbage collection engine.

The JIT compiler of the next iteration of java (that isn't quite out yet) is totally sick, so that probably will bridge the gap by a lot, but .NET is a speed demon in the right hands.

Re:

[FishWithAHammer (957772)]

.NET is extremely fast on Windows CE. Java simply is not. Go try it yourself.

You made the right choice

[igomaniac (409731)]

... If you spend some time with it you'll even come to love Visual Studio, particularly the debugger is worth getting to know. Knowing how to use a debugger separates the professionals from the amateurs, and the Visual Studio debugger is the best there is. If you're using C#, you can even use edit-and-continue efficiently (there is edit-and-continue for C++ also, but it's too limited to be very useful, YMMV).

BTW I'm also a mac user, but I do most of my development on windows because of how good Visual Studi