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Landing IT Work Overseas
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Oct 08, 2008 03:20 PM
from the mostly-aimed-at-americans dept.
from the mostly-aimed-at-americans dept.
snydeq writes "US IT workers could find considerable payoff and invaluable experience by taking their IT skills overseas, InfoWorld reports, as foreign, US, and global firms have increased the demand for a wide range of tech talent across the globe, offering positions that clearly move beyond the scut work of heads-down programming. Business fluency, industry-specific skills, and knowledge of American markets is fast becoming an invaluable asset foreign firms will pay a premium for, according to the report, which offers insights into finding IT work in a range of cities and regions abroad."
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Wait (Score:5, Funny)
If I wanted to be in a third world economy, shouldn't I stay at home??
Re: (Score:2)
What about telecommuting? (Score:3, Interesting)
Right now, I'd love to start looking at working for a company in Europe, but I'm really not looking to move out of the U.S. I'm young, and single, and the idea of traveling frequently definitely appeals to me, but I really do love living in the U.S. And getting paid in UK Pounds or Euros wouldn't hurt too much. :)
Any tips for how to nail a telecommuting job overseas?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What about telecommuting? (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that you think it's dangerous in Europe because you can't carry a gun around is a pretty big clue. Nobody who is law abiding in Western Europe carries a gun. In Britain, even the police don't carry guns (except in special circumstances like airports presumably because there is a high concentration of Americans). You're no more likely to be shot by a criminal here than in the States, in fact, you're less likely.
The fact that you think a gun is like a smoke alarm is another clue. Smoke alarms can safely be left lying around unattended and nobody dies. If a smoke alarm goes off by accident, nobody dies. In bank raids where the robbers are armed only with smoke alarms nobody dies. In a fight between two people armed only with smoke alarms, nobody dies.
If you live in a society where gun ownership is a necessity for personal survival, then you've lost the argument before you begin. I don't live in such a society and you'd be well advised to get out.
Parent
Traveling is Good for Anyone (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that moving outside one's native culture/setting is a good idea for anyone. It really helps to gain a wider perspective of the world.
All the travel I've done to this point in my life has been primarily in Asia and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I tried to get a tech job in Korea a number of years back, just after I'd gotten into the industry, but it didn't work out.
This year I had the chance to spend a couple weeks in Hungary. That was my first visit to Europe but I thought it was a great place and would be happy to live there. I kind of expected that though.
Latin America would be interesting, though I'd think that unless one is in a major metropolis that they had best be prepared for a difference in standard of living and available services. I see Costa Rica mentioned a lot - and I think an advantage there would also be that there are many people who are very fluent in English. A lot of Americans I know that want to learn Spanish quickly go there to do so.
I've been thinking a lot about spending a couple years or so in El Salvador. But I know of an opening there that I'd have a high chance of filling.
Developing countries offer a lot of neat opportunities. I think that if one goes into it with a good idea of the situation and proper preparation that it can be life changing for the better. I certainly don't think that globalization is slowing down. And for anyone planning to return to the U.S. eventually, I think learning Spanish would be wise.
Not so fast, Kumar (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years ago Bob Cringely wondered the same thing, but found India won't take you.
"So I went on the web to see how easy it would be to emigrate to India. I found NOTHING. I called the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC and asked how I could emigrate to India. They didn't know what I was talking about... The idea that I'd just arrive at the Mumbai equivalent of Ellis Island looking for a job, well they found that rather amusing." http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2004/pulpit_20040226_000453.html [pbs.org]
Rest of the developed world is in an IT slump. Time for that Career B-Plan?
uhm wut? (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a .NET / MSSQL guy (yeah, I know, I know)
anyways, family situations have caused me to move around a lot in the last few months.
When I was in Portland OR, I landed a 6 figure job in 3 weeks. I declined it and instead moved to Manhattan and got a job in 2 weeks, also 6 figures. Contract to hire, and they said they'd hire me permanently, but now due to a death in the family I have to go to Minneapolis MN. I put my resume on Dice sunday night and have 2 promising leads for jobs in the twin cities, also a
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You have what some people call... skills.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not so fast, Kumar (Score:4, Interesting)
In India, most jobs are filled by referral, not by posting a job listing and screening applicants. This is changing, as companies like Polaris have open houses where they screen and hire "freshers"... but in general, looking for a job without a personal recommendation letter from one of your contacts to one of their personal contacts in another company can be difficult.
In my experience, there are plenty of opportunities for American workers... as long as you want to be in management, or if you have specific business knowledge that's hard to find outside the US. The hard part is convincing the employer that you're worth the pay. Although it's important to note that $50,000 US in India can be enough to get you a decent home with a staff of servants... just make sure you have a driver.
The other possibility is to work in the US for a foreign company. I see a lot of this going on nowadays... global businesses who need to maintain a US presence (in particular, a NY-area presence) often have American employees working locally to manage workflow, processes, and teams in India, China, or elsewhere.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Screw India - you could probably find IT work in Colombia, where you'd have the opportunity to work 60-hour weeks and bring home a whole $400/month.
Yeah, working in developing countries is awesome.
In other words, (Score:2)
We outsource ourselves?
Definition plz (Score:2, Interesting)
"scut work of heads-down programming"
Uhhh wot? What does the above quote mean?
Exchange rate info is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
I just checked the info for Paris and they got the exchange rate wrong:
Can the rest of the article been trusted if they cannot get something so fundamental while working abroad right?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
No shit. I thought for a second they meant cost of living, or something like that, but no.
Exchange rate when the article was written (back in June, when it was even worse than today) was 1.00 EUR = 1.5451 USD.
So 75K euros = $115,882.50
So they miscalculated your potential salary by... $67,882.50.
"Whoopsy."
Move to NZ and Aus (Score:2, Informative)
Canada is OK, eh? (Score:3, Interesting)
A couple of years ago I spent 6 rather pleasant months in Edmonton as an IT contractor for EPCOR -the local power company working on their main power consumption and billing system.
Great City, Great People -long commute (1200 miles one way every other week)
Between the smattering of French speakers and the large # of other European cultures it was almost like being in Europe without the language issues.
There are a lot of IT opportunities in Alberta now thanks to the Energy Boom, but you have to have a job there before they will give you a work permit and if you have priors they may refuse you entry
"hot tech jobs beckon in China, India, E. Europe" (Score:4, Insightful)
From the article:
"The U.S. and Europe are slowing down, but hot tech jobs beckon in China, India, and Eastern Europe."
Sure, which is precisely why all of our H1Bs returned home in waves and a large percentage of the available visas went begging this year.
Is you read a couple of paragraphs down, you'll find the story is a plant for a headhunting firm.
"According to Rob McGovern, CEO of JobFox, an international employment agency for IT, in today's global economy, people who truly understand how to do business globally are a minority."
So the third world pays better? (Score:2)
I thought the reason that so called "guest workers" were flooding into the USA was because the wages in those world sweat shops were so horrid.
Working in India (Score:3, Informative)
Foreigners can work in India. Provided they have a job and apply for a work permit. Many Indian IT companies are looking for experienced programmers who would be willing to work in India for a few years (for a start).I know people from New Zealand, Holland, UK and US who have been working in India for more than 3 years.
Indian Work Permit
In India, work permits, often referred to as employment visas can be issued either to skilled professionals or to people immigrating to India to fill a specific position for a named company.
Working permits in India are less defined than work permits in many other countries in that the Indian immigration structure does not present detailed requirements for obtaining one.
Work permits are a very subjective area of Indian visa services, however in order to live and work in India all candidates must secure one.
so TFA's are crap, any real worthwhile links? (Score:3)
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:4, Insightful)
Speaking as a resident of Slashdot, if you are coming here to post anonymously about your experience in an unnamed country, and expect to make a point of suggesting Americans are all xenophobic, we don't want you. Far too many Anonymous Cowards come to Slashdot to take advantage of the fact that it's popular to criticize the guys on top (Americans.) That's not how you contribute to a forum, regardless of how smug and self-assured you are.
Parent
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyway I've worked in a few countries (Israel, Thailand, the US, Spain) and almost everywhere any idiot not willing at least to pretend to have an interest in their language is not going to be very appreciated.
Or to be exact, any idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Anyway... I'm sure skilled American IT workers are valued everywhere, but if they happen to speak a second language (or are willing to learn one) they are going to be valued not only by the companies but by their future peers.
Parent
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it is purely a numbers game. I live in a part of the US (Florida) where speaking Spanish is becoming essential. Not using it gets me dirty looks and sub-par service in a number of places I go.
The only thing that bothers me is that sometimes where I live if English speaking Americans get vocal about wanting others to speak English they get pilloried. Yet this outlook, wanting visitors or immigrants to assimilate in language is much more widespread. And in some places the steps taken to enforce the local language are so strong as to be codified into law. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it because I live here, but I am unaware of people who say push for Dutch in parts of Belgium, or those who enforce the use of French in parts of Canada, being vilified like the people who push hard for English in America.
Me - I figure that stuff is fluid and fighting it is foolish.
Parent
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:4, Interesting)
You don't know of places that enforce the use of French in Canada? Is that a joke, or do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
I have to say that it irritates me that people are unwilling to learn a new language, but it irritates me in both directions. I speak several languages, with varying degrees of skill, and I don't mind helping out someone who doesn't speak english.
If, however, I go to a country where I don't speak the language, I don't get offended that they expect me to make the effort to learn their language...It's a far far greater hassle for their whole country to pick up my language, than it is for me to pick up enough to get around.
So, while the, "Speak American" rednecks annoy the crap out of me, the idea that the vast english-speaking majority should have to learn a new language for the benefit of the minority is equally annoying.
Parent
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't know of places that enforce the use of French in Canada? Is that a joke, or do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
Not what he said, I think you missed the second half of that sentence... he's not unaware of them, he's unaware of their being vilified.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't know of places that enforce the use of French in Canada? Is that a joke, or do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
The parent said: but I am unaware of people who ... enforce the use of French in parts of Canada, being vilified like the people who push hard for English in America.
He knows they exist - but he's wondering why they're not "vilified" the same way Americans wanting people to speak English are.
A good question! And you two seem to agree - if Spaniards demand you learn Spani
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
Hell Quebec doesn't consider itself [nytimes.com] part of Canada so why should I?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:4, Informative)
The vast majority of Spanish speaking immigrants in the U.S. are not here legally. Passing a higher minimum wage or shorter work week would not help them. When I lived in the southwest, and knew many illegal immigrants from Mexico - most had two jobs. Once again I'm unsure how the kind of legislation you've mentioned could help them.
Where I live now, most of my Spanish speaking neighbors are American citizens via Puerto Rico. They are middle class people who drive nice cars, live in homes just like mine (or nicer) and choose not to learn English because they don't have to.
And I don't have a problem with it - maybe I wasn't clear enough about that. They are free to do whatever they want in my eyes. I'm learning Spanish because that is the way things are going and I don't see the trend reversing any time soon. And once again, I'm fine with that. My entire point of jumping into the discussion is that it seems to me that all over the world, many people seem to resent newcomers who don't assimilate - yet most don't seem to receive the negative press (as far as I can see) as Americans who press for immigrants here to learn English. That's all.
The difference for you, I am willing to bet is volume. If you had the number of immigrants come to your country that we have here, and they moved into neighborhoods where they instantly became the majority, owned the businesses, etc. They wouldn't need to learn the local language.
I have a co-worker who has an aunt that is an American citizen, she has lived here for well over 10 years and she has never learned English. She lives in an area primarily populated with Brazilians and does just fine with Portuguese. I've visited the neighborhood and I'm the one that struggles because I don't know Portuguese. That's less common here than Spanish being a majority language - but the same principle is at work.
I am one of those people that truly enjoys diversity and being around people who are different from me. I thrive on this stuff. I love to travel - to try and really experience different places and ways of life.
Now maybe people integrate well in Finland because the government has done a better job - but I'm skeptical that this is the case. I'll bet that it is more complicated than that and the numbers alone are more to do with the situation than anything else. Just my opinion.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I may just may be more disconnected from what is said about the people in those places, and of course more aware of what is said about my own country. I do wish though that people here were aware that this is a human problem not necessarily an American problem. And I do bring up those 2 examples because they are so obvious and come quickly to mind I think that prejudice against people who don't use the local language exists in just about every place to some degree.
The only place I've ever visited
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Who in Amsterdam doesn't speak English? I spent half my trip there trying to speak anything but English, just to get some practice.
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Or to be exact, any idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Ooops! Bad example. The Dutch love you speaking English to them as they like to show how well they speak it in return. In fact, if you do try and speak Dutch they will usually reply in English anyway! It's really hard to learn to speak Dutch in Ho
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Our foreign language skills (or lack of skills) are related to necessity. When the number of foreigners entering the US for business greatly exceeds the number of Americans going abroad for business, and when the single largest economy in the w
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
[A]ny idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Another point is that people who are used to foreigners not knowing their language are extra-special-double-appreciative if you make any effort at all with the local language - say, enough to order another beer and say thank you.
This works in the office as well - even if all you can say in the local language at first is "good morning" and "lunch time", it shows that you are not an entirely worthless human being.
I lived in Germany for a year and a bit with bunch of English people. Our employer was paying for
Re:We don't want you (maybe) (Score:4, Insightful)
Its the expect bit that gives Americans a bad rep. I have lived abroad for over 7 years and shudder thinking of the stories where Americans betray all decency, manners and courtesy in the face of uncertainty (to be fair, the English are generally shit as well). That Spaniard is simply going to give English a try and see if it works, not really caring if it doesnt. The American will give it a try, but LOUD and exaggerate all body movements in an attempt to communicate not only their intent, but also the fact they are American.
My girlfriend works in hospitality. She and her friends can tell stories about much Americans complain about absolutely nothing. My theory for this is that we yanks have grown used to a level of service that is ridiculous, that when we travel, that the service in other countries mimicks the lifestyle... easy going. And this frustrates and annoys Americans. Most people know when this happens, Americans feel they need to let everyone know. And this is where we deserve our reputation.
Parent
Parent is a classic Troll (Score:2)
Re:Not me! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Yeah, because overseas we're not scared of a woman who looks like a real woman
Only you guys need your females to look like an 8 year old girl...
Other things we prefer are flesh to silicone. Seems the only real tits left in the US are running the country...
And we're also quite attached to our foreskins as a natural part of our body rather than finding the need to slice them off and turn them into a small novelty bag for holding loose change ;-)
Re:Not me! (Score:5, Funny)
Presumably, then, American girls are like Steve Ballmer in their pants?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The best part about overseas work is the ass. Girls don't wax/shave/trim, so it's like richard stallman in her pants. If that doesn't turn you on, I don't know what will!
Spoken with all the experience of an american slashdotter. Isn't the percentage of "never left the country" pretty close to the "not getting any" one?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Europe vs USA [ski-blog.com].
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i have dual citizenship (Taiwan & U.S.) but i don't think i'd enjoy working or living in Taiwan. besides, it doesn't seem to have a growing job market [infoworld.com] at the moment. Europe and Canada sound appealing though.
the only places in Asia i'd be interested in working at are Japan, because it's such an interesting culture and a technological leader, and South Korea because, well, Korea seems to have a higher proportion of hot girls than any other Asian country. it'd also be nice to have a 100 Gbps internet conne
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you're Asian, and you're not Japanese - the Japanese workplace can be downright hostile. (Not from personal experience, but from what I've heard from people who've worked there as foreigners).
Now if you're Caucasian - you can get away with working less than your Japanese counterparts and getting paid more than double their salary. Plus the women there worship the average Slashdotter like a rockstar if they happen to be Caucasian.
Taiwan may be less xenophobic than Japan, but they'll work you 26 hours a da
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Non-Japanese Asian working in Japan here. Au contraire! The women worship me, the workplace is gentle as a baby's kiss, and I work two hours less than the 26 hours you claim. So there!
On a more serious note, that stereotype about working in Japan has been around for quite a while.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Non-Japanese Asian working in Japan here.
May I ask from where?
The key to a successful experience abroad is not adopting a fatalistic attitude about things. There's almost always an upside, and in the end, your experience abroad is what you make of it anyway. For example, anywhere in the world, if you look the same as the local population, it gives you more opportunities to learn and use the language.
Yeah. I had many good experiences working in Japan, I had some bad ones. I still wouldn't trade it for anything.
The most memorable experience was when I worked for NEC in Kobe. As people entered the building the security guard would look at the badges and say "Ohayo gozaimasu", so it was Ohayo gozaimasu, ohayo gozaimasu, ohayo gozaimasu [see me] Good Morning sir!, ohayo gozaimasu. I always answered back in Japanese when they did that, but ...
Well-timed "gyoi kashikomarishita"s[1] we
Re:Not me! (Score:5, Interesting)
Now if you're Caucasian - you can get away with working less than your Japanese counterparts and getting paid more than double their salary. Plus the women there worship the average Slashdotter like a rockstar if they happen to be Caucasian.
The first part is probably true. The second part works both ways. When I was working in Kobe, I often went to a small local drinking bar and did experience Japanese women leaving the dates who brought them there to sit besides me. Sadly, it was not me they went home with.
The secret is to learn how to sing a few songs in Japanese. A pale face in a Japanese karaoke bar who sings songs in Japanese *does* get vast appreciation.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Well, at least you can put your business there as a tax dodge.
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It's actually quite easy for a US citisen to get into Europe. Many countries such as the UK, Ireland and Germany consider that they have a "special relationship" with the US and will grant working visas to virtually anyone that's coming over to do a job.
There might be some issues in turning that permanent but I know a lot of guys who have managed that with a minimum of fuss.
Land in a smaller state such as Belgium [bbc.co.uk] for example and you can get a passport after 3 years!