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Microsoft Woos Developers Under the Silverlight
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Oct 13, 2008 03:15 PM
from the go-on-start-wooing dept.
from the go-on-start-wooing dept.
CWmike writes to tell us that with the impending release of their Silverlight 2.0 product, Microsoft is poised to enact the next phase of their plan, wooing developers and designers directly. Microsoft is funding a French open-source project designed to allow programmers to utilize the Eclipse framework to build Silverlight apps. "Microsoft is also releasing for free a set of programming templates called the Silverlight Control Pack under its Microsoft Permissive License, as well as the technical specification for Silverlight's Extensible Application Markup Language (XAML) vocabulary via Microsoft's Open Specification Promise. The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."
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Silverlight 2.0 Released 164 comments
rfernand79 writes "Via Scott Guthrie's Blog for Microsoft, we find out that Silverlight 2.0 has been released. The blog post notes some interesting statistics, including the magnitude of video streamed during the Olympics and the Democratic National Convention (both using Silverlight). 'Hello Worlds' and educational links are included in the post."
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An Even Shorter Summary (Score:5, Funny)
The important parts of the summary:
Microsoft ... Developers ... ... developers ... ... developers.
Re:An Even Shorter Summary (Score:5, Funny)
Ballmer: "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale Silverlight?"
Parent
While I don't like Flash. (Score:5, Insightful)
Flash is multi platfrom and there is GASH as an option.
I also trust Adobe to be OS neutral a lot more than Microsoft.
99% of our your users already have Flash so why make them download and install Silverlight.
Re:While I don't like Flash. (Score:5, Insightful)
99% of our your users already have IE so why make this work with Mozilla
Same trap. Just a different beast.
Parent
Re:While I don't like Flash. (Score:4, Insightful)
so why make them download and install Silverlight.
Because you can.
Seriously, a lot of things with MS are just power games. The MS keys on your keyboard are an example. By my best estimate, about 1% of users ever use them for anything not an accident.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Too bad applets got such a bad rap. They actually work very well now and are fast and powerful.
Re:While I don't like Flash. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
http://wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/246288/slashdot [wordle.net]
Did not work in Firefox, but worked in Konqueror
Re:While I don't like Flash. (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually you can build flash apps without Flash.
Flex SDK is free and allows you to compile Flash, Flex and AIR apps.
FDT is not free but it's very very good (uses Flex). If you think it's not worth the money, you can write your own Eclipse plugin.
There are a number of other options, like FlasDevelop or MTASC, which although not Eclipse-based, are free alternatives.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You can build Flash apps using the Flex SDK in any IDE you want.
Also, Flex Builder from Adobe is based on eclipse.
http://www.adobe.com/products/flex/features/flex_builder/ [adobe.com]
Why not Flash or AJAX? (Score:5, Interesting)
Keeping in mind I am speaking in a group where there are huge amount of open source zealots. However Flash has the advantage that it runs in Linux, Mac, Windows (And more if you are designing for older versions) while Silverlight is only Windows and Mac.
Next Flash is usually installed by default on Mac and Windows systems. (And a simple plug in for Linux... But if you guys are so smart you can probably add a plugin yourself anyways or the distribution has it already installed) Vs. Having to install it on Windows and Macs too.
If you don't need the extra graphics and AJAX method works good too. Plus you don't need to deal with the Closed Source Flash as well.
Re:Why not Flash or AJAX? (Score:4, Informative)
Except that a plugin is not available on Linux. MS touts Moonlight as a nearly complete port of Silverlight to Linux but in fact it's very far from being usable - even Gnash is light years ahead of Moonlight when compared with their closed source versions.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And I don't want it, so I won't.
Likewise Microsoft aren't helping so they don't want it either; in fact they are actively hindering with their usual technique of making Silverlight a moving target.
So, does this mean (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How does flash suck? (Any more or less then any of its competition)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Oh it is a holy war based on language syntax. I thought I was missing a glaring design quality issue about it.
Re:So, does this mean (Score:4, Interesting)
Actionscript is similar to javascript, although in version 3, with strong typing, it starting to feel more like Java.
Some people - me included - like its flexibility, while others loathe the same thing.
The only thing I don't like about it is the new syntax for Vector data type (Flash 10)
C#, Java: int list[] = new int[100];
AS3: var list:Vector. = new Vector.(100);
Parent
Re:So, does this mean (Score:5, Informative)
It is called Moonlight. http://www.mono-project.com/Moonlight [mono-project.com]
But I am not all that comfortable with it. I think that Microsoft has done enough that I just can not trust them with any "standards" any longer.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Unfortunately Moonlight is nowhere near usable, at least for the average user. Additionally it will contain closed blobs of MS code because of the Novell-MS deal: read up [wikipedia.org]
Re:So, does this mean (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:So, does this mean (Score:5, Informative)
Flash runs just fine on PPC Macs. I have a friend with a Windows Mobile phone that has no problem viewing Hulu Flash movies. (No clue what CPUs in it, but I doubt it's x86.) I dunno where you got the idea that it's x86-only.
Parent
Sluts (Score:5, Funny)
love the way Microsoft kinda imply that open source is so slutty...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:5, Interesting)
I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.
As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?? Silverlight is a tool that Microsoft is designing so that developers can take better advantage of the rich Internet experience. It steams me that the author of that article seems bent on pointing out that MS has this "ultimate plan" to kill Adobe.
Why can't people get past the whole pro vs. anti-Microsoft thing? I may be ranting here (apologies in advance), but railing on MS for their past business practices (which I don't condone, BTW) is pointless. I tend to use the best tools available for the technologies that I code for, and Microsoft has some good ones! Sure, they are proprietary, but it could be any large corporation in MS's place, and people would rail on them for being the "big, bad corporation"! Open source has its' place in the industry, as does proprietary software!
Let's get past the hate, and just stick to what we (developers) do best: write awesome code!! I get stoked when I hear of new technologies coming out (from MS or Sun, or whomever), since that means the online experience users want is getting better, and WE are the ones who give it to the masses!!
W00t to new technologies!!
Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like marketing drivel to me.
While financials are right in stating that past performance does not guarantee future performance, microsoft does not get the benefit of the doubt. They have (and continue to, albeit subtly) acted maliciously towards their competitors for a long time, and will spread FUD whenever they can to drive users to the "platform of choice*", namely Windows and Windows-derivatives.
Not to say that Microsoft hasn't come up with some good things. The problem is that adopting these good things puts you right where Microsoft wants you: following them lockstep, but never quite able to catch up.
That said, your post reeks of cheerleader. Wake me up when Mono catches up to .NET 3.0 (I think they just got 1.0 WinForms support and are nearing 2.0 compatibility?)
Parent
Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Mono isn't a 1:1 implementation of .Net ... they are compatible with everything in 2.0 that matters.
And Wine is compatible with everything that matters in the Win32 API. That doesn't cause all programs that matter to run correctly.
Parent
Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
MS adds a lot of value to what they offer, but that doesn't mean they get a free pass regarding transgressions of the past. However, on
Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well it has more to do with standards. I don't want to have anything I do on the internet tied to one OS, browser, or even software supplier.
Flash is supported on more OS's and more browsers than Silverlight.
Also I just can not trust microsoft to keep supporting anything but Windows.
IE, Mediaplayer, and VBA for Office all show that Microsoft will not support anything but Windows.
That isn't really politics it is just logic. The internet should be OS and Browser neutral.
Parent
Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How is Silverlight going to make my "Internet Experience" better in FireFox on an Ubuntu AMD64 computer?
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What happens when Silverlight is made incompatible with Moonlight? Moonlight seems to be in the "Embrace" phase, what about the extend and extinguish phases?
If you say to make stuff work for Moonlight, what happens when executables made for Moonlight don't work in Sliverlight?
Re: (Score:3)
I am so sick of reading these tech articles with an anti-MS bias to them.
As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code??
Well of course, but since when has any Microsoft tool kit provided 'better/robust' code? ( its been decades )
Their current crop of tool kits ( and language of the week ) are the pinnacle of bloat and internal inefficiency.
Re:Ugh, I tire of this... (Score:4, Insightful)
Saying Microsoft is trying to kill Adobe is "pro-" or "anti-" anything. It's an observation. It's what Microsoft always tries to do.
I think you're being just a little too sensitive here when talking about a company for which nothing is too low when it comes to smothering the competition.
Aside from that, if Silverlight is good, people will use it. Frankly, all I could ever get it to do is ask to be installed, even when it supposedly was. I guess it doesn't support Firefox. Flash is closed-source, a performance hog, and Adobe can't seem to port it to 64-bits even though they've been allegedly "trying" for years. If that doesn't tell you volumes about the quality of the code, then nothing will.
Silverlight is from Microsoft, therefore it will _not_ come without some huge club beating you in the face to lock you into Microsoft regardless of whether it's good or bad. This is an important consideration. Just when software is more cross-platform friendly than ever, Microsoft comes along and tries to set the clock back 10 years. No Linux support? Is this 1998 again?
These are important considerations above and beyond whether Silverlight is easy to work with and performs well. All Microsoft technology comes with a big ball-and-chain attached, backed by an obscenely powerful company who is not afraid to extort, intimidate and lie to maintain their advantage. For many people, that's not a problem and may even be seen as an advantage. For other people, it could be a deal-breaker.
If Microsoft wants to be treated based solely on the merits of their technology, then perhaps it's time, after 30 years, that they attempt to compete based solely on the merits of their technology.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You assume I care. The only reason I tried to install Silverlight was because Microsoft suggested it in order to take advantage of their new download features. I tried it and it failed miserably. I don't even run Windows any more. I'll care if some online app I want to use requires it, _and_ I can get it running with a minimum of trouble. I'm through fighting and clawing and groveling to get Microsoft crap to work. They get one chance, and if it fails as utterly as Silverlight did for me, then I quit.
I got tired of it too... (Score:4, Insightful)
As a developer, isn't the point to write better/more robust code?
I used to be platform-agnostic and hardware-agnostic, but after a few rounds of companies pulling platforms out from under me... "better" code that depends on a single vendor is something I have to look long and hard into before I'm going to jump on board. I don't care whether it's called NextStep or .NET, SmallTalk* or BeOS, if it's under the effective control of a single company it's pre-doomed. Over the past 30 years I've been burned too many times to trust ANY proprietary platform.
take better advantage of the rich Internet experience
Another buzz-phrase that was just as scary when it was the rich Desktop experience. That turned into a Microsoft-controlled virus hive. Not going there again.
I tend to use the best tools available
Me too, so long as nobody can pull those tools out from under me because they went out of business or changed their goals. I don't care so much whether it's open source or not, so long as there's multiple sources out there.
Parent
Really nice Silverlight sample site (Score:5, Interesting)
http://gallery1.demconvention.com/ [demconvention.com]
Yup, the Democratic National Convention site is Silverlight. The bandwidth isn't quite as impressive as it was while the event was going on. But flip through the site and check out the functionality.
As someone who has developed a bit with the beta Silverlight tools, I have to say it is an amazing platform. And I'm quite excited about using it in the future.
-Rick
Re:Really nice Silverlight sample site (Score:5, Insightful)
But flip through the site and check out the functionality.
I'm sorry, but you're making me more interested in what McCain's got to say.
Parent
Re:Yes this is fantastic new tech..... (Score:4, Interesting)
I installed Moonlight but the same message keeps appearing on the Democratic Convention site, and the Hard Rock Memorabilia site crashes FF. So much for Moonlight. It's a Microsoft perpetrated scam to fool people into thinking that Silverlight is portable to OSes not targeted by Microsoft.
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
So web developers should only aim to provide text based content because some people refuse to keep up to date?
Silverlight is currently in beta, soon to be launched. I would imagine that MS will do their damnest to get as much penetration as they can. And that means improving performance on FF (I haven't had it crash yet, but it is much laggier) and working with the folks at Moonlight to get things flowing there.
But hey, some people complained about this whole 'Netscape Navigator' thing back in the day. It's
More links on the topic (Score:5, Informative)
SL Eclipse Tools project
http://www.eclipse4sl.org/ [eclipse4sl.org]
MS Press release (interestly enough, it plans linux as a supported platform)
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2008/oct08/10-13Silverlight2PR.mspx [microsoft.com]
Silverlight 2 release is imminent.
Why not use a fully open-source toolkit? (Score:4, Interesting)
Given that Adobe AIR is based on WebKit, and the OpenSource world has Webkit (Qt has Webkit integrated, but Qt is not required for my suggestion), why don't we just make a fully AIR/Silverlight clone using WebKit and Javascript?
The proper way to woo. (Score:4, Funny)
Goldfarb (Score:3, Funny)
The latter, said Goldfarb, should make it easier for would-be Silverlight developers."
I'm glad to see Microsoft's goblin integration program is still going strong.
Tag it from now on "WorksForNow" (Score:3, Insightful)
From now until the end of time Microsoft's cross platform adventures should be tagged "Works For Now". As their DRM brand "Plays For Sure" should have been called "Plays For Now", as their "Internet Explorer" languished free of development until a challenger arose, the only thing certain about Microsoft product development is that there will come a day when utility is deprecated to further Microsoft's perceived economic interests. As soon as they perceive that either they have market ownership or that market ownership cannot be achieved they abandon further development. This is not progress.
Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing (Score:5, Funny)
How the hell did you get all that in there fast enough to be the top page post? I just picture someone foaming at the mouth and typing so fast hummingbirds are frightened.
I have my problems with Microsoft too, but damn. Go outside. Walk a park. Read a book. You don't need an ulcer at your age.
Parent
Re:Lovely rant, but I have to know one thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, I imagine this as some late 30s, early 40s year old guy living in his mom's basement with trollish rants ready to copy and paste. He also has a barbecue sauce stain on his shirt.
Actually, that's how I see all trolls.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft is not a single entity... Microsoft