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NY Bill Proposes Tax Credit for Open Source Developers
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Mar 05, 2009 02:56 PM
from the save-the-commonwealth-a-few-bucks dept.
from the save-the-commonwealth-a-few-bucks dept.
NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "Assemblymen Jonathan Bing and Micah Kellner, along with a number of co-sponsors, have introduced proposed legislation in New York State which would grant a tax credit to individuals acting as volunteers who develop open source programs. The idea of the credit is to ensure that volunteer developers, who could not otherwise deduct their expenses because they are not part of a 'business,' should nevertheless be able to receive a tax benefit for their contribution. The credit would be for 20% of the expenses incurred, up to $200. The preamble to the bill notes that the New York State Assembly itself currently uses 'Open Source programs such as Mozilla for email, Firefox for web browsing, and WebCal for electronic calendars,' and that these programs have led to significant cost savings to taxpayers. The preamble also cited a 2006 report authored by John Irons and Carl Malamud from the Center for American Progress detailing how Open Source software enhances a broader dissemination of knowledge and ideas."
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$200 in NY is a start (Score:2, Insightful)
It's great because while you can generally deduct your expenses from your income, if you are contributing to free software code, by definition you are not making any money.
An alternative of course is to join a fair project [fairsoftware.net] instead (warning: shameless plug - you have been warned). Think of it like open source, except that if someone makes money with the resulting software , that person owes a fair share back to the developers.
$200 is too low. I want to be able to deduct my MacBook Pro. But hey, New York is l
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I want to say 'suddenoutbreakofcommonsense' but you're probably right... no new tax breaks this year. It's about damn time there was though.
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I know it's Slashdot, but I'm assuming you're not from New York. Per the article's link, the bill was introduced on March 3rd, so if this gets passed by 2015 we'll be lucky. This is the same state that's rebuilding the World Trade Center and swears it'll be done in time for the 10th year anniversary - in 2011. Did we mention they started in 2002?
Re:"$200 is too low" (Score:3, Interesting)
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$200 is too low. I want to be able to deduct my MacBook Pro. But hey, New York is leading the way.
Be thankful, given the past history, [slashdot.org] I'm surprised they aren't charging sales tax on free software.
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Be thankful, given the past history, [slashdot.org] I'm surprised they aren't charging sales tax on free software.
Sales tax in NYC is 8.375%, I believe. I would be happy to pay that same percentage on free software.
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Sales tax in NYC is 8.375%, I believe. I would be happy to pay that same percentage on free software.
Whoosh!
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it's probably DOA. no sponsor in the senate yet. so call/write/harass your nys senator to sponsor the bill.
also there's now the nys senate is now on twitter http://twitter.com/nysenate [twitter.com]. so send them a tweet saying you want an open source tax credit.
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That's not necessarily true. You may not make money directly off the contribution, but the expenditures that go into developing the code that is contributed could be, in effect, a PR and/or R&D expenditure in pursuit of another business (e.g., writing software-related books, or selling consulting services related to the project to which you are contributing.) Heck, if it couldn't be part of a money-making business,
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$200 is too low. I want to be able to deduct my MacBook Pro...
Working on OSS won't pay for a MacBook either. You just have to devote a small amount of time to paid freelancing. Then you can write off the entire cost of the MacBook and still have plenty of time to use it for OSS development.
How to prevent abuse? (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea sounds excellent in principle, but how do you tell a true open source developer apart from a poser looking to abuse this program?
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The idea sounds excellent in principle, but how do you tell a true open source developer apart from a poser looking to abuse this program?
Release history on a well known open source project hosting site, Sourceforge, Google Code, places like that, or a large easily verifiable team.
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Yeah, so I put up what I've got now for DIFL and PTG. I've now contributed to two OS projects. Disregard the fact that the code for those projects is sketchy, and nothing actually works yet; last I looked, Sourceforge had project classifications for that. Suddenly I can get about $200 back, provided I can generate expenses.
Isn't there enough vaporware on Sourceforge already?
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I read your post. And he has an excellent point. Tell me how you prevent me and ten friends from putting up "Hello, World" Versions 1 through 20 on Sourceforge to get the credit. I have a large, verifiable team, and I have a release history. Now gimme my money.
Re:How to prevent abuse? (Score:4, Funny)
The idea sounds excellent in principle, but how do you tell a true open source developer apart from a poser looking to abuse this program?
Slashdot post history?
Parent
Re:How to prevent abuse? (Score:4, Funny)
The idea sounds excellent in principle, but how do you tell a true open source developer apart from a poser looking to abuse this program?
Slashdot post history?
True. If they've never been modded to "-1 Flamebait" you know they're not genuine.
Parent
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Looks like the mods think you're genuine. ;-)
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As a software developer, I'd be as genuine as a 3 dollar bill.
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As a software developer, I'd be as genuine as a 3 dollar bill.
Here's the quickest way to getting that -1 you've always wanted:
vi or emacs?
Re:How to prevent abuse? (Score:5, Funny)
The idea sounds excellent in principle, but how do you tell a true open source developer apart from a poser looking to abuse this program?
Simple. Yank on their beard. If the beard pulls off, they are a poser. If only a few hairs pull out, and your hand comes away coated in grease and food particles, then they're legit.
Parent
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Ah, not familiar with the un-kept-beard-and-poor-hygiene stereotype of UNIX/Free Software geeks? Well here's a crash course in the frighteningly real basis [stallman.org]. ;)
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Companies don't get tax cuts, the contributors do. The companies can already deduct their expenditures as business expenses. And, if that was an issue, your proposal wouldn't help, since it wouldn't stop them from starting a GPL-licensed-with-copyright-assignment-required-to-contribute and then finishing
Is this what is needed? (Score:2)
Instead, commission some FOSS or features added to FOSS you already use; the money directly supports useful development and the developer(s) involved, the taxpayer, and the entire world (well, that uses that software, directly or indirectly...)
Al Gore (Score:2)
Didn't Al Gore propose a similar tax program?
No Thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to help open source, require that government software makes widespread use of open specifications. The rest will pay for itself.
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Open specifications and open source are almost orthogonal; I would say you want government software to specifically use open source, and government-issued software standards (e.g., standard mandated data formats) to be open specifications.
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Open Source doesn't imply Open Specification.
Source Code is not a Specification.
Source Code can be Officiated and written for such a Platform Particular Level that it is useless to anyone else without the Spec or the original programmer.
Hey if you have a Binary File and the Intel Assembly Manual you could disassemble any program in assembly and follow that code to see what it does and then do changes and make it better.
20 Megs of source to sift threw without specs is a hassle and potentially quite dangerous
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Correct. Which is why I said, in the post you responded to here, that the two were "almost orthogonal".
You are repeating yourself, to which I repeat the above response.
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Let me clarify: I do not mean to say that it is essential that all government software should be open source, what I meant is that there open source is, all other things being equal, a positive thing in many areas of government, where the same advantage may not apply equally in the private sector (this is particularly true, for instance, in software where government sponsors the development, rem
All Your Code Are Belong To Us (Score:2, Insightful)
Great. Just great.
This is effectively an open source government subsidy, albeit a small one.
Government subsidies generally are used to either (a) encourage a behavior (mortgate interest deducture designed to encourage home ownership, for example, though what it really does is raise home prices), or (b) create a claim to that subsidiesd, in hopes of exploiting it later, which is likely the case here.
IOW, "You could not have developed this code if the taxpayer did not subsidize it, therefore the taxpayer owns
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Maybe because it is not a failure?
All healthcare systems ration, either by you not having the cash to buy it, by your HMO deciding it is cheaper to let you die while they drag out the denials and appeals process, or when there are not enough doctors and you have to wait. When there are limited resources, and there always are, there has to be a way to ration them.
The VA has the best result per dollar spent of all healthcare systems in the US, far more goes to overhead in private systems.
If this does not make
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Get sick in Canada, and tell me what you think.
If you don't have "connections" you wait forever, often longer than if you could have paid the tax dollars you did toward health care toward a private policy. I discovered this very quickly when I moved from Canada to the U.S.: my taxes went way down (as I was married at the time and owned a home, there being no mortgage interest deduction in Canada, or the option to file jointly (and the tax credit for a spouse was a token amount)), and the premium I paid for
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That's a nice story, but you must realize that your observations do NOT mirror those of Americans as a whole.
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insightful my ass.
IOW, "You could not have developed this code if the taxpayer did not subsidize it, therefore the taxpayer owns it, not you, and you now have to pay a $50/year tax to use it. Obviously, since you did not own it, you could not copyright it, and the GPL is null and void,
He supports universal healthcare, for example, but can not accept that it's general failure is due to a design and not implementation flaw.
pure bullshit
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Rather like talk of taxing the internet because DARPA funded it's original development?
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Geez. The government won't sue for use. They'll tax you on your own code, and prosecute for criminal income tax evasion if you don't pay.
Dunno about the U.S., but in Canada, while the police can't bust down your door just because they think you killed someone, they can certainly do so, and sieze all your assets and property, if they think you're guilty of tax evasion. I hear the IRS is about the same, though my dealings with them have been reasonable.
It's a beginning (Score:3, Interesting)
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It's a tax break for a hobby. There are lots of things out there which are noble and good, but which don't qualify for tax breaks because the business never makes a profit, or not enough over the long term to call it a true "business."
I applaud OSS developers, but this is a carve out for a special interest. It happens to be "our" special interest, but that doesn't make it any better. I'd rather see the government actually use OSS and buy support contracts than give a handout.
The gnomes who did the heavy lifting (Score:5, Informative)
(a) the guy with the idea behind this bill was "open government", "open access to court records", "open source", "open everything" activist Carl Malamud [americanprogress.org], who was most recently in the news when Congressmen and Senators started picking up his thread about making PACER -- i.e. court records -- free (as in beer); and
(b) the guy who helped usher this through, and put together the details, and get the Assemblymen to put their backs behind this, in the halls of government, is a very dynamic young geek and Slashdotter named Benjamin Kallos (like myself a Bronx High School of Science grad) who until recently was working for Assemblyman Bing but is now running for City Council [kallosforcouncil.com] in Manhattan.
I like the altruistic idea but... (Score:4, Insightful)
This kind of legislation only has the potential to harm the open source movement.
Currently, the benefit of this extra legislation is a pittance, a mere $200. This is nothing more than a token gesture. It's intended as an extra incentive for individuals to contribute, but gives no real relief to any project large enough to make a difference.
So it has barely any benefit, and it has a chance to do a lot of harm.
The little harms: It can be abused too easily. There's very little way to keep proper track. The money would be diverted from other public benefit.
The big harms: 1) incentives have been shown to psychologically stifle altruistic endeavours and 2) possible large scale abuse later.
1) The incentive
This kind of incentive actually does a lot more harm than good. Barry Schwartz talks about it briefly in one of his TED talks [ted.com]. (at 10min 50sec).
"If you have a reason for doing something and I give you a second reason, it seems only logical that 2 reasons are better than one and you're more likely to do it. Right? Well, not always..." He gives an example of something I've heard about time and time again. If people are willing to do something based on principle for what they believe is right, they are less likely to do it if they are also offered an incentive of money. The introduction of the incentive switches the psychological focus from, 'How can I help?' to 'What can I get out of it?' Without the incentive we're willing to deal with difficulties for a community or a cause we think is right. With the incentive, we weigh the difficulties with what we're getting out of it.
2) Abuse
If legislation grabs hold in one place, that makes it easier for similar legislation to come about in other places. This can have a snowball effect until it gets rather large. So right now you'd have a few individuals abusing the system, but if more legislation gets passed and more money added, you'd get large corporations abusing the system. What happens when the the next OOXML (a product owned by a large company but passed off as being the same as any other OSS) comes into play? It'll just be another government kickback to be abused. Don't assume government legislation is going to be tech savvy as to what true FOSS is.
OSS is doing fine now. It's not broken. It doesn't need fixing. There is already legislation helping non-profit organizations. This kind of legislation does not provide any real benefit. It is too easy to abuse now and it psychologically harms the motivations of the OSS movement.
Let's leave the money in OSS to donations and deals with ordinary companies. Adding extra governmental layers of money is just a bad idea.
$200 in NY is nothing (Score:2)
This is bad. (Score:3, Insightful)
It will lead to the government defining Open Source.
"I'm from the Government. I'm here to help you."
Re:America (Score:4, Insightful)
To the mod... perfectly on topic. Let me break it down slowly for you. We have various agencies offering tax breaks and increased spending to help the economy. The reality is that spending Trillions more than you bring in may help short-term. However, long term we have to work harder just to pay the debt we owe everyone.
Now, if Mr. Smith not receiving any benefit from the overspending, he rightly goes "Hey, it isn't right to put me into debt so you can benefit". But, throw him a bone, and suddenly he is content with the overspending and gladly puts the ring through his nose.
Fast forward a generation, and the bill catches up with us. We spend more time just to pay off old debts, and less for investing in the future. Countries who lent us the money have more to spend on capital projects. Soon we are a 2nd world country.
It is already happening. And seeing the collective orgasm over a $200 credit illustrates it beautifully.
Bottom line: tax cuts are nice. But you have to pay for them. Either now. Or later.
Parent
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Soon we are a 2nd world country.
Soon we'll be part of the USSR?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_World [wikipedia.org]
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If, as you say, the tax breaks and increased spending actually do help, then, by definition, more wealth has been created than otherwise would have existed with which to pay off the debt. That's the whole theory behind accepting short-term and potentially very
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So you're saying capitalist theory was developed without considering the existence of governments? Well that would explain why it feels so disconnected from reality sometimes. That'd be like me developing a plan for getting to work that doesn't account for terrain or solid objects in my way.