Giftfile Project Primes Decentralized Gift Economy 68
belmo writes "Last week, the Giftfile Project unveiled developer documentation and reference software for the giftfile system. This system enables producers and supporters of computer files containing nonproprietary intellectual works to participate in a gift economy. Tax deductible lump donations, made to nonprofit intermediaries, can be allocated to these files in an automated and efficient manner, supporting transactions as little as .01 USD. Nonproprietary intellectual works include free software, music, and literature. To use the system, you don't have to go to some web site and register--it's decentralized, built on open standards, and does not depend on any for-profit entity. The project is currently targeting free software developers to test the system, help make it accessible to other computer users, and be its first participants."
How Typical (Score:5, Interesting)
Then, when a theoretical solution to the problem of how [composers|programmers|authors] will get compensation, NO ONE CARES!
Re:How Typical (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, the 'gift money' is only given to the [composer|programmer|author] on demand... Which means that any interest that acrues will end up as income to the 'giftfile' organization. Lacking any place to spend the money... Where does it go? (Fat salaries for employees and managers is my bet.)
Second off the proponents appear to making the suggestion that their should be multiple gift pools, which makes for a situation ripe with oppurtunities for fraud.
Thirdly; One also wonders how long the nonprofit status will survive, since the company isn't performing charitable, research, or educational functions, but is rather providing 'bank like' functions in distributing income to individuals. (They claim they are 'grants', but the fact that they are monies earmarked for an individual and payable to that individual on demand moves that claim onto *very* shakey ground.) The granting of status as a non-profit doesn't mean it can't be revoked, such revocation can also (for tax purposes) be antedated. (This entire 'thirdly' is mostly the thoughts of my wife... A CPA who has done tax and nonprofit work.)
Re:How Typical (Score:4, Insightful)
It is possible that any interest earned on a giftfile's balance be given to the giftfile's author, even if the realisticness of this is debatable.
Second off the proponents appear to making the suggestion that their should be multiple gift pools, which makes for a situation ripe with oppurtunities for fraud.
This is true. But it's part of their idea for a decentralised system, and it encourages competition between giftpools to best serve the public.
They claim they are 'grants', but the fact that they are monies earmarked for an individual and payable to that individual on demand moves that claim onto *very* shakey ground.
When I donate to particular charities, I'm often able to say what I want my money to be used for. I'm able to tick boxes which say that I want my money to be used only to help homeless kids, or only to provide aid to foreign countries, or not to be used for administrative costs. Well, in this case, I can "tick a box" which says that my money is to be used to support free software programmers. And there are lots of "boxes", so that I can tick exactly which programmers I think most need the help of my donation. Because the software in question (the software I'm supporting with my donation) is free software, I can argue that it benefits society as a whole since anybody can use it or improve on it. This is in comparison to donating money which ends up going to a homeless kid and helping them sleep somewhere at night. Don't get me wrong, I think that the homeless are a serious social issue, and I have nothing against spending money to help them - but I'm trying to show that the "bank-like" comparison is not necessarily as strong as the "charity-like" one. I can see the benefit in donating to homeless organisations and to free software programmers, but perhaps I can see more direct benefit (personally) in the latter.
Charities distribute money to help people who are less fortunate people, or to help society as a whole. That's what they do. I would say that providing an income to programmers whose work is freely available to anyone in the community is a charitable function, no less than paying the wage of a social worker.
Also, it's worth noting, as another poster has, that the "demand" of the giftfile owner is more of a "request" or "application". Ultimately the giftpool has discretion over where the funds go. However, if a giftpool starts withholding monies from giftfile authors, or otherwise "misbehaving", then donors are free to stop using them and move to another giftpool. I guess the hope is that this would be enough of a deterrant to stop giftpools from doing this sort of thing.
Re:How Typical (Score:1)
Re:How Typical (Score:1)
Re:How Typical (Score:1)
Plus, look at iTunes. It's wonderful. Still has some problems (DRM, charging for "empty songs" in Dark Side of the Moon, etc), but we love it. The more the **AA embraces that, the happier I for one, and I suspect much of the
How long before.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:How long before.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:How long before.... (Score:1)
That sucks to see employees win a home theatre or something during the Xmas office party and then bitch about the taxes they will have to pay for it.
Re:How long before.... (Score:1, Funny)
Re:How long before.... (Score:2, Informative)
They would need to be recognized by the government as a non-profit organization for that to happen. I don't think "The White JPEG of Purity Society" will manage that.
Re:How long before.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How long before.... (Score:5, Informative)
From the last link [giftfile.org] in the story:
and
Be aware that giftpool grants may need to be declared on your taxes.
Re:How long before.... (Score:2)
Its not stupid at all.
I could donate $10k today. That saves me $4k taxes this year. In 5 years when I have no income, I demand my giftmoney and get $10k + interest - operation costs. In 5 years I likely earn much less than now and I only pay a small amount of tax. Let
Re:How long before.... (Score:2)
Re:How long before.... (Score:2)
No, this idea is a good one - tax in most countries is progressive, so the more you earn, the higher your level of taxation - though an accountant can usually make income move from one year to another without having to do this kind of thing.
Re:How long before.... (Score:3, Informative)
I don't get it.... (Score:1)
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:1, Informative)
In this scheme, you're giving money to an organization, when you intend for it to reach a certain author. You trust that that organization will later give most of your money to that author. They are under no particular legal obligation to do so. Authors hopefully remember to apply to all the nonprofits for a grant, and the amount of that grant is supposedly something like the amount donated to the nonprofit "for that author". The non-profits will take
Re:I don't get it.... (Score:2)
taxes? (Score:1)
finally, a workable alternative to paypal (Score:3, Interesting)
But I'm REALLY CHEAP ! (Score:4, Interesting)
Im serious no flamebait, , BUT I also write and contribute software under many free licenses, so THAT my gift back to the "Open Source Movement" if you want to call it that.
I have seen "Free" software that it is almost EXPECTED by the author that he get a "Donation" for it, kinda irks me and usually It gets dumped, If you want to charge for it FINE but dont try and hide it behind the guise of free software then BEG for green.
I wonder how much problme REGULAR donations to EVERYONE involved in now free software would , I dono taint ? them to where they change to only a paid programming model ?
Re:But I'm REALLY CHEAP ! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:But I'm REALLY CHEAP ! (Score:2)
By donating, all you gain is the government's obligatory share of that money.
Re:But I'm REALLY CHEAP ! (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, how dare they encourage people to voluntarily donate to them.. the gall!
There are a lot of projects out there that are very deserving of financial rewards for all their efforts. I think this is one of the downsides to the "Free Software" movement. Too many people think of it in terms of "Free as in my cheap ass doesn't have to pay a dime for it", not in terms of the freedoms Mr. Stallman cares about.
I think if there was a viable mechanism for expecting/getting payments (the vast majority of shareware fails financially) many developers would use it. If it meant better software got produced, and more developers could make a living from it, that would be a very good thing.
Re:But I'm REALLY CHEAP ! (Score:3, Interesting)
This works only as long as there is a sizeable middle-class (educated, non-greedy and interested in more than 'making money') somewhere in the world.
If poverty spreads in the western world, the FLOSS movement would grind to a halt.
[rant]IMHO, the (mostly) hobbiest nature of of the free software movement is a very valuable thing in itself. Yet, big
Re:But I'm REALLY CHEAP ! (Score:3, Insightful)
I make donations to many organizations and projects, but there is a limited amount of money I have to donate, and I have to decide how to best allocate this money. If a project is very popular, there are more people who are likely to donate. If the developer of a wildly popular little utility is getting rich as a result of the donations, then great for him/h
wrong article? (Score:1)
The Gift of Vapor (Score:5, Interesting)
And even if they emerge from vapor-mode and do indeed set up this system, it seems geared torwards institutions rather than individuals as you'd have to use a "gift-pool" ie: a centralized body and set aside fundage into that BEFORE you can assign a portion of those funds to a recipient. And that's not to mention the restrictions placed on those who may contribute their work by requiring contributers to license with a handfull of licenses.
Personally, I think PayPal already covers the online donation territory in a far less political and more trustworthy fashion. Anyone can set up a donation link for any reason whatsoever and collect fundage from the willing. No restrictions on what license is used, what type of media it is or anything else for that matter. And furthermore, you don't have to lock up funds in your paypal account to be able to donate, paypal will transfer from your bank account/credit card automagically.
I think the developers would be wise to reconsider their very niche-centric and restrictive objectives if they are to expect any real usage by both contributors and benefactors.
Re:The Gift of Vapor (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason for supporting only nonproprietary works is to get tax exemption. If you're producing proprietary works then you're not entitled to that, and so you can try yourself to get people to donate to you, without tax exemption.
I agree that snail-mail only donations isn't great, but it's not like this will always be the only way to donate. This system
Re:The Gift of Vapor (Score:2)
What makes you say that? What about free but non-open-source works?
Re:The Gift of Vapor (Score:2)
A nonproprietary intellectual work is a work of authorship such as music, literature, or computer software that may be used, copied, modified, and redistributed by anyone without charge. In other words, we are speaking of works from which the public has the freedom to benefit.
To answer your question directly, free but non-open-source (ie. gratis, but not libre) soft
Re:The Gift of Vapor (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. Why do I need to "participate" in this "system"? When I post my software on my website under an unenbcumbered license, every and all can come by and grab it. And if I want the unencumbered software of another that has been publicly posted, I can go and grab it. Neither side needs a special system to participate in.
ESR was using a metaphor when we was talking about gift economies in his books. The analogy is not accurate, because computer files are not integral "things". Potlatches were gift economies, because when you give your neighbor a salmon, you had one less for yourself. But when you give your neighbor a copy of your software, you still have it yourself.
Gift economies were based on plentiful resources, but not unlimited resources. (and they also had a strong element of "oneupmanship")
Re:I don't get it (Score:3, Informative)
That is still the case. The system is of course completely voluntary and optional. As a producer of software you can choose to participate in the system by creating special "giftfiles" for your works (your software). You distribute the gift
I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:2)
Would the sensitive clod who wrote the Linux kernel please identify yourself?
Re:I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:4, Insightful)
First, how to verify that the creator of a giftfile is the "owner" of a work? In other words, what's to stop me from taking the Linux source, making a giftfile for it using my private key, and then distributing the giftfile in an effort to get donations? I can't see anything which prevents behaviour like this.
Presumably the digital signature in the giftfile allows one to verify that a particular work matches a giftfile. That would stop me from putting my giftfile with someone else's work (to try and get people to donate to me instead of the real author), or putting my giftfile with some random crap which I claim is something useful.
Second, how to deal with works which are the result of several authors. In the case of the Linux kernel, there are hundreds of authors, but there can only be one private key to sign the giftfile (I think). Once there are funds donated towards this giftfile, who gets the money? Does it all go to Linus? Or must an organisation (eg. Apache) be setup for every project which has multiple contributors? Or do we have a similar situation to my first point above, where each author makes their own giftfile and then donors have to allocate money to every author? (Or perhaps some sort of grouping system so I can say "split my $10 donation equally among all the authors of linux-2.6.6.tar.bz2"? But I'm not sure how this would fit into their decentralised model...)
Re:I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:1)
Q. Does some kind of authority verify authorship?
A. Publishers create giftfile certificates. They certify to the giftpool and the public that the work is nonproprietary: a public good. Authors may be the original publishers, but once a nonproprietary work is published anyone can create a new certificate, personally I hope that Debian and Redhat pickup, compile, and republish my works, but so could that pesky evil Malory.
The giftfile system itself is a tool, one built to fill a huge gap in our community'
Re:I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:2)
The conclusion I came to was that there just isn't a fair way to split the credit for large collaborative projects. If you think the linux kernel is hard, what about a nifty embedded gadget or something which relies on the kernel for 90% of its functionality, but was made by completely independent developers?
The situation is a bit better if you offer payments in ad
Re:I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:1)
Re:I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:2)
Re:I think I'll donate 1,000 bucks to (Score:2, Insightful)
I've thought about this a bit... (Score:3, Interesting)
Micropayments-- the Exantrius way:
1) pay a certain amount to a "host" (this doesn't work quite right unless you have central hosting-- think sourceforge, or fanfics.net.) You can either do it so that it's what the user wants, or a flat rate, or whatever.
2) take a couple percent (5ish?) for server and bandwidth costs.
3) Every time you visit a "story"/informational page, you rate it (good, bad, indifferent), defaulting to indifferent if you don't choose any. every page you visit gets one "vote" for a bad, 10 votes for an indifferent, and 100 votes for a good.
4) At the end of the month, tally the number of votes from each user-- and find out each share price-- 1 vote == $.0032 or whatever. now place it in the voted's account. this would be per user-- if someone had 10000 votes and $10, their votes would be worth $.001. likewise, someone with 10 votes and $10 would have $1 shares.
5) Hold money in an account for each user. This works best in a closed system-- think a bbs or blog community or something-- probably more like fanfics.net or something with creative or real other value. when the voted makes a certain amount, they can cash out (so you don't have to send $.18 checks to people). say $20. Plus they can use their acct balance to pay their "subscription" fee.
2 ways for service to make money:
1) "skimming off the top"-- as long as it's kept low-- 5% is high, ideally it'd be in the sub 2% range.
2) collect interest on money-- invest it in short term investments or just put it in an interest bearing account.
Ideally though, the system would be set up as non-profit, with the hope that the people that set up the system are decent contributors, so they can make their own money... so make just enough money to pay expenses.
This would work best in a situation where everyone can be a contributor, and noone has "special" priveleges, except maybe a "top N stories" by votes. that means that the guy that runs the site would have to place his work in the system with everyone else.
This is just the most basic idea-- I've actually played around with this, but I'd need a large hunk of data in order to get numbers right... I think people would join a community for a small fee if they had the opportunity to get money back-- this also guarrantees that *ALL* the money goes back to users, and it gives an incentive to not only be an active member of the society, but a good contributing member.
Of course, I would make it all available without registering/paying, but with ads, and no contributing-- no reason to charge people who are just passing through...
Or possibly I'd let them contribute, and have a counter on their front page "If you registered, you would have made this much: $TEXAS"
Unfortunately I'm lazy, and frankly don't particularly care about doing data systems as much as I used to love them... If anyone can put this into effect, I'd love to hear about it...
bob[at]drunkmonkey]dot[org
AdSense is probably more lucative than begging (Score:1)
The Simple Economics of Content (Score:2, Informative)
I'm a developer with the giftfile project. We'll try to answer some of the questions/comments in another post or at the site, but let's take a step back. The giftfile project is a only humble start, we want to accomplish two things:
Our community needs these things to get to the next level. Everyone can see these problems. Somehow the community woul