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Torrentocracy = RSS + Bit Torrent + Your TV

Posted by timothy on Mon Jun 21, 2004 06:47 AM
from the clairvoygence dept.
lerhaupt writes "I've started a project called Torrentocracy which is the combination of RSS, Bit Torrent and your Television. It's written as a plugin for MythTV (the homebrew Linux PVR project). This means you can not only easily find out about new torrents from various enclosure enabled blogs, but you can also start the torrent download process with the click of your TV remote control. Are RSS aggregators which support torrent downloads the next greatest thing since web browsers? What is the significance of hooking this directly to your TV? Here's a screenshot."
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  • Sounds Wonderful (Score:4, Funny)

    by Moblaster (521614) on Monday June 21 2004, @06:49AM (#9482875)
    Except for the fact that I'll need to keep my television on 24 hours a day to seed.
  • Psst. Buddy. (Score:5, Funny)

    You really should've torrented that .jpg.

    Just a thought.

    Kthx. ;)
  • Interface (Score:5, Interesting)

    by millahtime (710421) on Monday June 21 2004, @06:52AM (#9482891)
    (http://millahtime.blogspot.com/ | Last Journal: Friday July 15 2005, @01:00PM)
    The Interface needs to be as easy as digital cable. Otherwise i'd never use it. When I sit down in front of the TV I become a veg. Anything not easy is just plain to hard to do.

    Can't look at the screen shot though. been /.ed
    • Re:Interface (Score:5, Funny)

      by I confirm I'm not a (720413) on Monday June 21 2004, @08:49AM (#9483652)
      (Last Journal: Friday January 30 2004, @03:41PM)

      When I sit down in front of the TV I become a veg. Anything not easy is just plain to hard to do.

      Damn, that's true. Why is it that I can write shell scripts and debug Perl, but have never been able to program my VCR? Selective stupidity - or lack of tin-foil hat? ;)

      [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Interface by b96miata (Score:1) Monday June 21 2004, @12:59PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Webserver go boom (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 21 2004, @06:52AM (#9482892)
    You should have set up a torrent and had people mirror the site.
  • Bad rep (Score:2, Insightful)

    by random_culchie (759439) on Monday June 21 2004, @06:53AM (#9482895)
    (http://skangers.tripod.com/ | Last Journal: Tuesday October 18 2005, @05:15AM)
    Its a really good idea. But when your dealing with programs like bit torrent with its reputation for illicit downloads you're fighting an uphill battle to get any sort of mainstream interest.
    • Re:Bad rep (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Stevyn (691306) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:11AM (#9482962)
      Not nessesarily, as far as p2p apps go, this has the best reputation in my opinion. For example, when mandrake released their ISOs of mandrake 10 to the club members, they distributed it over torrent. Another plus for bit torrent is you need to use a secondary method of finding the torrent files so unlike kazaa, there is no "search for music" option. Being open source also helps in that you can ensure there is no spyware. I think bit torrent can succeed as a reputable p2p app because it was not designed to steal music and divx movies, it just happens to do it well.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Bad rep (Score:5, Interesting)

        by spezz (150943) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:32AM (#9483063)
        Absolutely. It's been fastest way for me to get Red Orchestra and several other huge Unreal mods. The "make something unreal" contest has created a whole mini release cycle for mods, with it's deadlines and lure of cash prizes. So all of a sudden there's 4-5gb of files worth downloading all at once and all manner of choked up servers.

        Bit torrent, however can serve up the 400+ mb file within an hour and the developers can just set up the link to the seed from their site. It carries an air of legitimacy greater than you can achieve by saying "or look for the file on eMule".

        [ Parent ]
    • by reality-bytes (119275) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:21AM (#9483010)
      (http://www.clickonstore.net/)
      With the vast amount of legitimate downloads made available using BitTorrent, I wouldn't say it has a 'bad reputation' at all.

      BitTorrent has successfully been used to provide everything from ISOs for distros to large commercial game demos.

      The use of BT for transmitting illegal warez etc has been minimal mainly because BT requires a larger number of people to be interested in the particular warez than most P2P software for a download to work.

      Its worth remembering that the primary use of BT is to get large files out to large numbers of people as soon after a given date as possible (while using the minimum of initial bandwidth).

      What the article is actually getting at tho is that the PVR can be used to easily start a BT download on another (perhaps headless) machine to which the TV/PVR is networked.

      Its convenient and useful but hardly revolutionary in this case.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Bad rep by icejai (Score:1) Monday June 21 2004, @08:23AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Bad rep by Spazholio (Score:2) Monday June 21 2004, @08:44AM
  • Smirk (Score:3, Funny)

    by mfh (56) on Monday June 21 2004, @06:55AM (#9482904)
    (http://put-your-mone...r-mouth-is.com/blog/ | Last Journal: Monday January 29 2007, @02:44PM)
    Guy: Here's my new cool project on torrents and TV.
    Slashdotters: Cool. (Click)(Click)(Click)
    Slashdot: Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!! [[[[Crush]]]]
    Server: (Dies)
    Guy: Well now that you've killed my server... I guess my project can't continue. :(
    Slashdot: Thanks for letting us know about your project.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Computer + TV card (Score:5, Insightful)

    by freeduke (786783) on Monday June 21 2004, @06:55AM (#9482905)
    (Last Journal: Wednesday July 14 2004, @06:28AM)
    A lot of people take the problem from the other side, while trying to download movies on your TV, we prefer to watch tv on our PCs.
  • i love the idea of torrents but ... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by buro9 (633210) <david@@@buro9...com> on Monday June 21 2004, @06:59AM (#9482925)
    (http://www.bowlie.com/forum/)
    have always failed to get complete large files.

    if this is to work on a television, maybe torrents should start to be paired with PAR files to create a far more robust method of fetching large files.

    sure these might need to be seeded and torrent files too, but as the PAR files could be dramatically smaller (i.e. 15% of size depending on size of parity) than the full torrent file, they could be published on the sites of the copyright owner (in the case of legit works where the company is using torrents to save bandwidth).

    simply put, user expectations when they use simple devices like a TV is that it just works... how many times have you NOT got a complete torrent and /or had trouble getting torrent working efficiently. PAR's could help bring in the robustness that dumb users would need.

    just my 2c!
    • I use torrents quite often and I don't have a problem fetching large files. In fact, fetching large files are exactly what bittorrent is all about.
      [ Parent ]
    • by laird (2705) <lairdp@ELIOTgmail.com minus poet> on Monday June 21 2004, @07:25AM (#9483025)
      (Last Journal: Monday April 07 2003, @07:39AM)
      "torrents should start to be paired with PAR files to create a far more robust method of fetching large files"

      This doesn't make any sense. Torrents are completely reliable -- they already have block and file level hashing and automatic re-downloading of blocks in case of transmission errors, etc. The only time you won't get a complete torrent is if there are no complete copies of the file being served. Adding error correcting codes (e.g. PAR files) would make the total file larger, and only recover from incomplete torrents that are _almost_ complete (i.e. would have been complete if the PAR file hadn't made it 15% larger). Just make sure that anything you're downloading has a couple of seeds before starting the download. ;-)
      [ Parent ]
    • by ctr2sprt (574731) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:41AM (#9483103)
      Well, basically what BT does is treat all torrents as single files (even if one torrent includes many files). It then splits this pseudo-file up into many chunks of configurable size. Each chunk gets a checksum which is, I believe, included in the .torrent file - this is why some .torrent files are much larger than others (smaller chunk size, more chunks, more checksums to include in the file). I think BT uses SHA1, but I'm not sure. As each chunk arrives, it's checked by your BT client. If it fails - i.e. the checksums don't match - it redownloads the chunk. Most clients will also check the entire file when you go to resume a download, so it can determine what pieces it needs to (re-)download. Some clients will also check the file after you download it, just to make sure it's been written to disk properly.

      What this has to do with PAR2s are obvious: the entire effective functionality of PAR2s is already integrated into BT, automatically. It's not something that users can turn on or off, it's an integral part of the protocol.

      The cause of your problem is likely that your torrent ran out of seeds before you finished downloading. Look at the "distributed copies" number your client gives you. That represents how many effective copies there are of a torrent. (Say client A has the first 50% of a torrent, and client B has the second 50%. Those are the only two peers. That's 1.0 distributed copies, since even though neither peer has a full copy, the two of them together do.) If the number is below zero, you will never be able to download the entire torrent unless a seed pops in.

      As BT clients advance, this is becoming rarer. There's a "super-seeding" option of some clients which helps get out sparsely-seeded torrents as fast as possible by refusing to send the same chunk more than once.

      If this is a problem for you - trying to get poorly-seeded torrents - you might want to try out Azureus. It preferentially grabs complete files inside a torrent first, and you can tell it which files to try for.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:i love the idea of torrents but ... by buro9 (Score:2) Monday June 21 2004, @08:19AM
      • by kryptkpr (180196) on Monday June 21 2004, @09:00AM (#9483794)
        (http://slashdot.org/)
        If this is a problem for you - trying to get poorly-seeded torrents - you might want to try out Azureus. It preferentially grabs complete files inside a torrent first, and you can tell it which files to try for.

        Conincidentally, being able to prefer one file over another is one of the reasons that we have poorly-seeded torrents to begin with.

        The mainline BT client does not support this becuase it interferes with it's rarest-first algorithms. It will download the pieces that are in danger of falling off the network before it will download a more common piece.

        I agree that preferring files may be a useful feature from the user's point of view, but it's still a selfish thing to do, and makes the 99%-and-no-seed problems worse and more frequent with it's use.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:i love the idea of torrents but ... by Alsee (Score:2) Monday June 21 2004, @02:17PM
    • Re:i love the idea of torrents but ... by FictionPimp (Score:2) Monday June 21 2004, @08:12AM
    • Re:i love the idea of torrents but ... by robnauta (Score:1) Monday June 21 2004, @08:13AM
    • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Dangerous New Bomb (Score:5, Funny)

    by Moblaster (521614) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:00AM (#9482927)
    Next thing you know, Orrin Hatch will be introducing a bill to blow up your television every time you watch some bootleg show.
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Wait... (Score:4, Funny)

    by MonkeyOfRage (779297) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:01AM (#9482936)
    They still make TV's?
  • what's the ocracy? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Grummet (161532) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:02AM (#9482938)
    If its from democracy then Slashdot just voted you out of office.

  • Easily Tracked? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by artlu (265391) <artlu AT artlu DOT net> on Monday June 21 2004, @07:13AM (#9482967)
    (http://artlu.net/ | Last Journal: Wednesday June 09 2004, @02:32PM)
    In my understanding, ISPs are able to easily track torrent downloads do to the seeding algorithms. If torrents become more mainstream, people will have more protection in downloading them as there will be more for the governments to regulate.

    Thoughts?

    GroupShares Inc. [groupshares.com] - A completely free stock trading community!
    • Re:Easily Tracked? (Score:5, Informative)

      by laird (2705) <lairdp@ELIOTgmail.com minus poet> on Monday June 21 2004, @07:19AM (#9483001)
      (Last Journal: Monday April 07 2003, @07:39AM)
      I can't say that it's "do to the seeding algorithms" but it's true that there's no encryption or hiding in BitTorrent -- it's pretty fundamental to the protocol's efficiency that everyone downloading a given torrent is given everyone else's IP address so that they can exchange data. This is why BitTorrent is great for moving large _legitimate_ files, and not so clever to use for "piracy". You might as well wear a red shirt on (original) Star Trek. :-)
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Easily Tracked? by Planesdragon (Score:3) Monday June 21 2004, @01:03PM
  • by tinla (120858) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:14AM (#9482974)
    (http://www.0daymeme.com/ | Last Journal: Friday August 24 2001, @10:54AM)
    Torrents.co.uk [torrents.co.uk] also publishes an RSS feed of new shows, and has several links to auto-downloaders. These other downloaders don't bolt onto a PVR, which is a nice feature, but it is worth remembering that many trackers already have RSS feeds and there is _some_ software already out there.
  • I kept hoping no one would do this. I'd seen requests for something like it on mythtv-users. Now that MythTV will be indistinguishable from "Movie Pirates" in the MPAA's eyes. It's probably only a matter of time before the whole project gets litigated, albeit unjustly, into oblivion. Well I hope Isaac can file legal paperwork and code at the same time, but I'm guessing not. And don't bother telling me this is a separate plug-in for MythTV, I know that. What I'm saying here is that the MPAA's lawyers don't know or won't care.
  • Caught on google (Score:2, Informative)

    Google has the front page of the site cached, in case no one sets up a mirror.
  • by gorim (700913) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:20AM (#9483003)

    1. I thought torrents randomly sent chunks from all over the file, rather than as a stream. Wouldn't this make no sense unless you wanted to wait forever for the program to be completely downloaded ?

    2. Given the large amount of copyrighted programs made available on torrent networks, isn't this an effort to make mainstream what might be otherwise illegal ? Does it make sense to put this amount of effort into support of what might be intended to be an illegal activity for most ?

    I would have RTFA but its slashdotted, so I couldn't confirm for myself how torrents are an appropriate medium, and whether the issues of widespread support for copyright violations are addressed.
  • I'm waiting for someone to develop a way to distribute the load of web pages via bittorrent. Wouldn't it be great if when a webserver hit a certain load, it was served by another server?

    Think about it: no more Slashdotting - just set your site up on a tracker the first time, and it's automagically covered under high load.
  • by WenisMonger (787750) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:28AM (#9483039)
    Does the name Torrentocracy really work here? Sounds like a bad form of government to me. But cool idea, even though none of us can check it out because it's /.'ed.
  • Freecache! (Score:2, Informative)

    by asgeirn (126441) on Monday June 21 2004, @07:35AM (#9483075)
    (http://www.asgeirnilsen.com/ | Last Journal: Friday October 01 2004, @06:48AM)
    You really should have submitted the screenshot link using Freecache [freecache.org] ..

    Only now it's too late, ofcourse..
    • Re:Freecache! by lucas teh geek (Score:1) Monday June 21 2004, @09:54AM
  • by blogmatrix (790073) on Monday June 21 2004, @08:28AM (#9483433)
    I suppose this is a good time to mention that BlogMatrix Jäger (http://jaeger.blogmatrix.com) now has pretty good support for Torrents attached as RSS enclosures. I just finished coding this up last week for the Windows version and released a Mac (beta) version that supports it on the weekend.

    Now if there only was more feeds supporting torrents....
  • by psmyylie (741794) on Monday June 21 2004, @08:31AM (#9483471)
    As neat as it would be to live in a world where everyone has PVR's integrated into their TV's, and anyone interested connects to a .torrent for the file through a web interface on their TV/media pc/whatever, I can't see it likely in any near future.
    1. The inconvenience. As another poster indicated, BT downloads RANDOM chunks, so you'd have to wait until the entire file is downloaded until you can watch it.
    2. The bandwidth. If this BT concept became as ubiquitous as PVR's will be in the future, the home ISPs would collectively have a heart attack. Now, I don't own my own ISP, but from what I understand just about all of them could never put up with every, or a significant amount, of their subscribers utilizing their upload amounts. They sell you those great 3mbit/1mbit (or whatever) lines, but if you consistently use the 1mbit line for WHATEVER reason, many ISPs (comcast anyone?) will automatically flag and cap you once you cross a data transfer amount (an amount they refuse to disclose to you). Granted, torrents are a great idea for spreading popular files, but it is a system that requires (or at least thrives on) people kicking back whatever they can into the system.
    Anyone else see that as a serious problem?
  • by McChump (218559) on Monday June 21 2004, @08:59AM (#9483785)
    There's another reason besides copyright infringement that the powers that be aren't gonna like this much -- this looks a hell of a lot like an early backbone for truly independent television. This could allow distribution of student films, public-access tv, homemade movies and shows to a much wider audience than might be otherwise available. If some company starts marketing a plug-n-go set top box with this feature enabled and pointing to an RSS feed site that contains exclusively (or even primarily) legal video, there's might be a measurable number people changing channels away from bad reality TV.
  • wow.... (Score:2)

    by enrico_suave (179651) on Monday June 21 2004, @09:15AM (#9483940)
    (http://www.byopvr.com/)
    with bittorrent functionality this close to your PVR content... and RSS action, one could see where if enough mythTV boxen where onlin with this (and seeded), a true "on demand" programming that would beat the pants of what certain cable companies are offering currently.

    *this* is why OSS and open standards and community/hacking innovation is soooo cool.

    e.
  • Nucleus RSS/Bittorrent Aggregator (Score:2, Informative)

    by RaySl (790080) on Monday June 21 2004, @09:34AM (#9484128)
    I posted to slashdot last week about my python script that does the same thing. Although no GUI is provided, it does what it needs to do, works on all OS's (XBox Media Center as well) Please check it out at http://ddll.sdf1.net/archives/002626.html [sdf1.net]
  • Broadcatching with BitTorrent (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sco (116197) on Monday June 21 2004, @09:43AM (#9484214)
    (http://scottraymond.net/)
    Here is my original long-winded essay which explicated the RSS+BT idea:

    http://scottraymond.net/archive/4745 [scottraymond.net]

    After addressing the initial whys and wherefores, I speculate on how the pairing might be potent enought to spark an indie media revolution. Here's the text:

    -- RSS meets BitTorrent meets TiVo.

    The other day, Steve Gillmor wrote about BitTorrent and RSS and how they could be combined to create a "disruptive revolution." He's half right. RSS and BT are indeed two great tastes that taste great together, but Gillmor's vision is upside down: we shouldn't use BitTorrent to carry RSS, we should use RSS to carry BitTorrent. Let me explain.

    -- But first, some background.

    RSS (RDF Site Summary) is a simple format for syndicating content on the web. These days, the most common application of RSS is subscribing to weblogs: you tell your computer to check an RSS file for changes every so often, and then it notifies you when there's something new to read. If you're like me and you read one metric shitload of news every day, this is a life-saver.

    BitTorrent, the brainchild of Bram Cohen, is the current cool-kids' P2P program. It works sort of like Kazaa, but at a lower level. It doesn't handle searching for new files, it doesn't have a media player, it just concentrates on downloading big files efficiently.

    Okay. Two solutions in search of a problem. Here's a problem:

    -- I have a weakness.

    I am addicted to the show Alias. I watched the first couple episodes of season two as it aired, and I was hooked. In my honest moments, I'll admit that the show's appeal is mostly due to the callipygian Jennifer Garner. It's a weakness; we deal.

    But it gets worse. I go out on Sunday nights, when Alias airs, and I don't want to give that up. That's why God created the VCR, I know, but to compound the problem, I don't have TV. I don't want to have TV, because I love the feeling of superiority that I get by not having it.

    This system is at tension, it has no rest, its forces are unbalanced, it wants to be resolved.

    -- A partial answer.

    The internet, it turns out, is great at resolving different kinds of tensions, and this is one of them. After a few weeks of missed episodes, I realized that with a little patience, a P2P program like Kazaa was able to fetch back-episodes with aplomb. Each file is around 450 megs, fairly high-quality video, with commercials cut out. I start a few episodes downloading, and by the next evening, they're ready to watch, whenever I have the time.

    After a few weeks of enjoying this, a new tension emerged: I had caught up with all of the old episodes, and I had to wait a week for each new one. The problem is that the Kazaa protocol isn't especially well-tuned for getting brand new files: first someone has to record the show as it airs, cut out the commercials, and compress it to a reasonable size, then seed it on the network. Then, it has to slowly propagate to its peers, each transfer taking hours. It might take three days before it's available on enough peers that I'm able to even find it, let alone download it.

    -- BitTorrent to the rescue.

    The solution is BitTorrent. BitTorrent operates on similar principles to Kazaa, but it's tuned differently: it excels at downloading files that are new or currently in high demand. It breaks large files into many small chunks, and coordinates their assemblage, so that users can tap into a swarm and distribute the load evenly. At the same time that you're downloading a chunk, another user is downloading an earlier chunk from you -- no one server is overwhelmed, and the more popular a file, the higher its availability is. It's perfect for large files that are most interesting when they're fresh -- in other words, it's perfect for TV shows.

    In many cases, I have been able to use BitTorrent to completely download a new TV show mere hours after the show airs.
  • Already been done. (Score:2, Informative)

    by anakin513 (653341) on Monday June 21 2004, @09:43AM (#9484223)
    (http://jason.sdf1.net/)
    Check this out Nucleus [64.233.161.104].
    Python application, all platforms, searches RSS feeds and downloads the torrent.
  • by Colonel Panic (15235) on Monday June 21 2004, @11:49AM (#9485667)
    Anybody heard of this:

    White Water allows people with limited or metered bandwidth to publish files for download by thousands of people without saturating their bandwidth. Downloaders participate by distributing chunks of the file amongst themselves but gain by downloading several parts of the file simultaneously. The download speed will generally be limited only by the downloaders own bandwidth, not that of the publisher.

    White water can also be used in server or proxy mode, publishing and downloading files for entire networks whilst providing more permanent sharing of cached files.


    It's touted as being more featurefull than Bit-Torrent. Anyone using WhiteWater?
  • Whatever about the "distributed Tivo" analogies, ReplayTV of course [google.com] already has massive distributed show sharing, the most notable example being the 15,000-strong Poopli library [poopli.com].
  • by trawg (308495) on Monday June 21 2004, @06:44PM (#9489946)
    (http://trog.qgl.org)
    ... the link to legaltorrents.com, the smallest torrent listing in the known universe.

    What was the point of referencing this? Aside from the obvious reason of trying to pretend this whole project isn't hugely illegal and going to attract even more negative attention from the mainstream press?

    I'd like to think everyone that reads Slashdot is aware that technology isn't inherently evil, and that BitTorrent isn't an evil technology because people use it to distribute movies, but linking to legaltorrents.com - a site which has absolutely zero relevance to the subject matter - is lame. Just like to one of the many sites that are regularly updated with pirated TV feeds and get it over and done with - the waiting is killing me!
  • by llauren (80737) on Tuesday June 22 2004, @04:42AM (#9493113)
    (http://navelfluff.org/)

    Now if you added collaborative filtering (see Amphetarate [sf.net]) we would have something infinitely cool. A TV viewer/recorder/broadcast station that "tivo-recommends" shows you'd want to see. Whoa.

    ~llauren

  • in the meantime, you can see a screenshot at http://freshmeat.net/projects/torrentocracy [freshmeat.net]
    [ Parent ]
  • by lerhaupt (231905) on Monday June 21 2004, @11:47AM (#9485638)
    (http://www.lerhaupt.com/)
    I've been unslashdotted (at least for now).
    [ Parent ]
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