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Microsoft's Sparkle a Flash Killer?
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Tue Jan 24, 2006 07:57 PM
from the preying-on-mixed-opinions-about-flash dept.
from the preying-on-mixed-opinions-about-flash dept.
Charmless1 writes to tell us eWeek is reporting that Microsoft has release new previews of their upcoming developer tools. Some have even dubbed these new tools as "Flash killers". From the article: "Microsoft's Expression Suite consists of the Expression Graphic Designer, Expression Interactive Designer and the Expression Web Designer. Microsoft has yet to release a CTP for the Web Designer, also known by its codename Quartz." Slashdot also covered some of the pre-release sentiments back in September.
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Microsoft's Sparkle a Flash Killer?
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SVG? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://kavlon.org/ | Last Journal: Friday March 21 2003, @02:10PM)
Re:SVG? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm actually working on a web plugin for animated content. It's not aiming to be better than SVG or Canvas, the goal is to provide a number of solutions to things that those things don't do. That's not to say SVG is flawed, It is just saying that if you are wanting to do some non-scaled, non-vector graphics, perhapse something else can perfom the task in a more efficient manner.
That's the long way of saying; I don't want to do eveything with one of these http://www.mediasalesltd.com/images/lg/10-15/mult
(1)I don't have any special knowledge to confirm that it'll suck, I just have faith in microsoft
Re:SVG? (Score:5, Informative)
I think you have some misguided concepts about how Quartz works. Quartz is just a web designer - with support for rich UI features. It has compatibility target levels - if you want to run on NN 4.0 it supports that with a reduced feature set. If you're interested, my favorite feature of Quartz I saw was actually the XML/XSLT WYSIWYG support (a close runner up is the AJAX RAD)... and that feature is compatible with no-CSS HTML 4.0! I know becuase there's an app I helped write (in 2002 without WYSIWYG) using the exact technology.
If you are targeting the WPF that still doesn't mean that your users will need Windows Vista to run it. Hell, the first demo of WPF I saw was on a Windows XP box. You don't really think the guys developing WPF have been doing it on Vista? Vista isn't even alpha yet... so WPF has been running on XP for some time already. The release of WPF will be back ported to at least XP, and I've heard ME and 2000 server are distinct possibilities. 98 won't be supported, but then 98 has been EOLed for a while. Besides... if you can't be bothered to upgrade your operating system once in eight years, then you obviously aren't interested in taking advantage of the latest technology anyways, right?
Re:SVG? (Score:5, Funny)
Me too. http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/quartzextrem
Re:SVG? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:SVG? (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://briancnorton.info/)
If your answer involves "open source" then you can stop right there. Nobody (except about half the slashdot audience) gives a rat's ass about source code as long as the software works properly.
Re:SVG? (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.thelonelyneuron.net/lasindi)
Just today I experienced a considerable amount of frustration because of Flash. In my physics class at my university we have to turn in homework on the Internet, and the website we're using uses Flash for entering equations. Several of the problems required us to enter Greek symbols (like pi and omega). However, when I tried to enter these characters, half of the character would display and the cursor would remain in the same spot as before, so if you continued the equation, it would overwrite the Greek symbol. It's a weird bug and hard to describe (sorry if you don't understand what's going on), but the point is it prevented me from doing my homework. I ended up figuring out that when I tried doing it on Windows instead of Flash on Linux (the latest version still), it worked. So, clearly, the Linux version of Flash has some weird bug in it that Macromedia has failed to address. In the end, I was inconvenienced because I had to reboot into Windows to do my homework instead of on my normal operating system.
This isn't the first time I've encountered bugs with the Linux version of Flash; take a look at this [hrwiki.org] (scroll down to glitches and then watch the cartoon for yourself on Linux). Obviously not getting to play a song on a cartoon website isn't going to scar me for life, but my point is that Macromedia (should I say Adobe?) isn't doing a very good of a job on the Linux version, probably because they feel that Linux doesn't have enough marketshare to significantly affect their profits.
If your answer involves "open source" then you can stop right there. Nobody (except about half the slashdot audience) gives a rat's ass about source code as long as the software works properly.
The reason that some people are concerned with open source is that it offers a way out of monopolies. The biggest problem isn't that the Flash player itself is proprietary (even though it would be nice if it weren't); it's that SWF is proprietary. This suppresses competition from would-be open source (or even other proprietary) Flash players that have to compete with Adobe/Macromedia. If SWF was open, an open source Flash player could be easily written that would eliminate such bugs.
We can always debate whether or not proprietary or open source development models produce better quality code, but proprietary formats are never good. All they do is hurt competition, which helps no one but the authors. Now that Adobe owns Macromedia, hopefully the Flash people will take a hint from PDF: open formats work. If SWF is opened, great; there would be no need to replace the format, only potentially the player. But as long as SWF remains proprietary, it needs to be replaced by a format that everyone can use.
Shocking news (Score:5, Insightful)
Shocking news: The SWF format IS open: Here you have a link [macromedia.com]. The license is quite similar to PDF. I think it's somewhat more restrictive to create tools which create SWFs or something but what the hell, stops saying that SWF is closed.
Just because the open source community hasn't managed to write a decent implementation of the PDF format doesn't mean. Actually, people has tried to write implementations (way before that GNU thingy by the way): Google for libswf. There's even a gstreamer plugin which uses libswf to draw flash animations (and it works for simple flash files, I've used it). Dude, in my machine nautilus shows me thumbnails of some flash files. Also, macromedia has written a linux flash player plugin for mozilla-based browsers, I wish all companies would do that.
Re:SVG? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:SVG? (Score:4, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Thursday February 23 2006, @02:47AM)
I've seen:
* Indie animations, most of which are pretty bad.
* Custom interfaces for webpages. These are, in my experience, much slower and more annoying to navigate than regular ol' HTML interfaces, are fixed at a size too small for my father to easily read, often (irritatingly) play sounds, usually have awful color schemes -- there's a *reason* that I have my foreground and background colors set to black and white, have sluggish reimplementations of scrollbars that don't look like scrollbars, and don't really IMHO do much for anyone other than the designer, who gets to play with a fun toy for a while.
* Ads. Animated, computer-bogging-down ads. Ads with sounds. Horrible, awful things which make computers without Flashblock miserable to use. Probably the primary use of Flash today.
* Small web games. While I have played these occasionally, the best of them don't come close to the best full-blown native games.
* Splash screens, which many companies inexplicably stuff in front of their website's main page. I would assume that this is to drive the less-than-dedicated away.
I mean, seriously, how does Flash make life better for the browser *user*? Okay, granted, perhaps in some very indirect way (advertisers will maybe pay more for Flash ads, that money goes to fund the production of websites that users want), but in general, Flash doesn't seem to be a net positive for my web browsing at all.
Re:SVG? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:SVG? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well it can do a lot, but that is NOT the point...
This HAS nothing to do with SVG or killing Flash. These are the art side of the development tools for MS WPF technologies.
It is used to create 'interfaces' for applications in Windows and eventually online for Windows Users.
This is basically the art side of the MS new technologies that are not really in competition with anything but the Win32 GUI API drawing set. This is the replacement for Microsoft's internal rendering engine of Windows.
What this does do that SVG and Flash don't is inherently handle many more types of graphical display concepts, blending, transisitions, 3D workspace, Viewpoints, and even collision detection for 3D UI objects, as well as provide these object and work with controls for applications.
It is like Flash and SVG and Postscript on Crack with full 3D capabilities to CREATE A UI, either application or eventually Web 'pushed' application.
If Flash or SVG or any other of the current technologies could do any of these features, MS wouldn't have had to create this new system.
It does basics from drawing fonts to screen and printer, to making a 3D Cube spin in front of a building with clouds going by, and the 3D Cube has User Controls and Interface items on it.
This is basically moving Application UIs for Windows to the next generation, what people have complained about with Windows, that there was no inherent 3D inteface unless you wrote in DirectX. (Although not many other OSes have inherent 3D model rendering engines as a part of their standard API interface, not even OSX.)
So instead of having to drop to OpenGL or DirectX to do some really cool animations or 3D application interfaces, you can use this tool and the other new tools from Microsoft, and they work in the WPF, which calls DirectX for you. This is like making 3D simple application design and animations 'easy' for the casual programmer.
The causal programmer will also get something they can't get with SVG or Flash technology for their Windows application as they will get the speed of DirectX, where Flash and SVG don't give you that, even if you create a 'fake' 3D interface in them.
I wish people would take a look at these technologies and see where MS has done some really good work, that is beyond what others are doing. If not, all other OSes will be falling behind once again.
And the cool thing is, if the Linux and OSX world didn't want to have to 'create' their own version of this technology, MS is giving the keys away to it for free.
So you could create a WPF for OSX or Linux, drop it through to an accelerated OpenGL interface, and be able to use these technologies on ANY OS platform.
Just because MS designed the technologies and even if they are not 100% perfect, they are above 99% of what is out there for simple application design, the specifications for them are open - wide open even, and you could be writing a great KDE or OSX application using this interface technology with no intention of ever running it on Windows or having anything to do with Microsoft.
So how will this kill flash (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So how will this kill flash (Score:5, Funny)
Can't you see that it is serious?
I bet it will run in other OS, in the beginning. (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Wednesday October 10, @06:37AM)
At least that is how the normally do it, so why shouldn't they do it with Mr. Sparkle?
ZOMG FIRST (Score:5, Funny)
(http://forums.mtgnews.com/)
Re:ZOMG FIRST (Score:5, Funny)
(Last Journal: Tuesday April 24 2007, @07:35PM)
Re:ZOMG FIRST (Score:5, Funny)
I, for one (Score:5, Funny)
(Last Journal: Tuesday September 25, @09:39AM)
Re:I, for one (Score:5, Insightful)
The component-architecture by Macromedia admittedly sucks badly, but open source projects are worked on as I write this, to change all that. You can now use Eclipse as a development environment for Flash, though I prefer either TextMate or XCode for my development needs. Especially Xcode, since I do alot of Cocoa/Objective-C development as well.
You should check out ActionStep, which is a framework modeled after NextStep/Cocoa, for Flash. It's opensource, nearly at 1.0, and looking quite good. There is the open source compiler mtasc, which supports all the latest things of the Flash 8 Player, is faster than Macromedias own, does better type checking and works from the commandline on most OSes. Being a commandline compiler, means it can easily be integrated with your favorite editor / IDE. Do read up on these things before you call it a nuisance and ad-thingie. Thank you very much.
Re:I, for one (Score:5, Insightful)
You know what else can create "whole applications"? Java, C++, C#, C, Perl, Python, Javascript, Fortran, Cobol, Ada, Visual Basic, Smalltalk, Assembly, need I go on? The fact that you can create "whole applications" with it isn't really something to be proud of.
Show me one instance where Flash truly is the best choice out there. Show me one instance where the negatives attributes of Flash (ie accessibility problems, requirements for third party proprietary software, an inability to interact with the operating system, etc.) are outweighed by the positive attribute (it makes it easy for third graders to make pretty webpages).
At Least It's Got a Name with Legs (Score:5, Funny)
MS Sparkle! (Score:5, Funny)
(http://jjjiii.livejournal.com/)
Why can't we all just get along? (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://www.precisionlaserdisc.com/)
Will it catch on? (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://dwedit.home.comcast.net/)
Re:Will it catch on? (Score:5, Informative)
(Last Journal: Friday February 10 2006, @02:51PM)
New Virus Channel? (Score:5, Funny)
Not likely -- Sparkle is developed in C# (Score:5, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/~panaceaa | Last Journal: Friday July 14 2006, @09:19PM)
No one remembers (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Saturday June 30, @01:22AM)
The only thing we still use from TrueImage today is TrueType fonts, which were the type of fonts that TrueImage used rather than Adobe's Type I fonts.
Some of these recent moves by MS to replace common presentation formats with their own remind me a lot of the TrueImage story.
Since Adobe owns Macromedia now, it's the same old clash, MS vs Adobe. Adobe has proven themselves to be very good at format wars. Because of TrueImage and other market pressures (like HP's PCL), Adobe opened up the Postscript and eventually PDF specifications and made implementation of them completely royalty free. This was a big long-term win for them.
So now MS is going against Adobe on two fronts, their new MS XPS format to try to kill PDF, and this Sparkle up against Flash. Adobe would do well to learn from the past and continue to use open specifications to keep MS in their place.
How much is it going to cost? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.zazzle.com/ervkosch | Last Journal: Thursday September 26 2002, @08:07PM)
If its freeware, Sparkle WILL kill Flash. If its cheapware($99 or less) it will hurt Flash in the short term, and could kill Flash in 5 years(because of the cost). If it cost ny more then that, and Micrsoft's product will just become a niche market like Real Media's SMIL format.
Re:How much is it going to cost? (Score:4, Insightful)
The price of Flash, or Flash competitors, is all but irrelevant. Now that Macromedia is owned by Adobe, Flash and Dreamweaver, will be added into the Adobe Creative suite bundle. Since most designers end up buying the CS bundle for Photoshop, Illustrator, and Indesign anyway, they'll be getting Flash for free. The inclusion of Dreamweaver and Flash into the CS suite is going to make Adobe the king of the hill for graphic designers in print and web work, and trying to beat them on cost isn't going to work - only someone who can make a product so good it compels users to get out of the Adobeland is going to have a chance.
And given Microsoft's recent history with design apps, they don't have a shot in hell.
Try Flashblock (Score:5, Insightful)
one thing microsoft can do... (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://www.developeradvantage.com/)
When I first read the article, my first response to a tool meant to improve user experience, from Microsoft, is that they should change the acronym from WPF to WTF, since, as a user, that is what always goes through my head when Word or IE crash.
But, with further reading, I actually think Microsoft may find success here. With Visual Studio they have a good track record and may succeed again.
Last Time We Discussed This... (Score:5, Informative)
(http://robertdot.org/ | Last Journal: Friday January 23 2004, @06:02PM)
"A lot of people have tried to label Sparkle as a Flash killer but it is not. Sparkle is a new way to deal with winforms that allows custom UI design without coders running into the traditional limitations of development platforms."
This "Quartz" thing might be close. We'll see.
Bill, Steve just called. He wants his silly name back.
This is not what Sparkle is about (Score:5, Insightful)
The big difference though, is that it's targeted towards designers rather than programmers and it lets you take advantage of all the animation/multimedia/typography/etc. features in Avalon. This means that UI specialists can actually design the UI in programs, rather than designing it and handing a spec off to a programmer to implement.
Frankly, I think it's a really good idea. As a programmer, I hate writing GUI code and certainly won't miss it. As a user I look forward to quality and usability improvements from this.
You need VISTA to run it! (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Monday January 23 2006, @12:19PM)
Umm... yea. Flash is about as dead as BSD, I think.
I mean, really, I'm no fan of Flash, but somehow I don't see some Vista-only Microsoft technology replacing it. Call me when Sparkle is a shipping, multi-platform, free-download product.
Then tell me where the millions of Flash games and applications on the web today are going.
Re:You need VISTA to run it! (Score:5, Informative)
You can download [microsoft.com] the bits now and play around with it.
Bill
In all seriousness (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://www.jd87.com/)
I suggest we go after the real killers. And have some reforms in the use of the word "killer" in headlines.
Sparkle is not Flash (Score:5, Informative)
With Sparkle, a graphic designer can easily work on the UI elements while a developer concentrates on the code.
This product DOES NOT compete with Flash (Score:3, Informative)
(http://www.designpoolstudio.com/)
Aside from the web design app, the suite is heavily focused on application design, prototyping, and development. Tools like interactive designer are treading in new waters.
The summary (Score:5, Interesting)
- Microsoft has awaken to "embrace" the web only until recently. Vista, however is a much older strategy to improve the desktop beyond what the web might deliver to keep the people locked in (on an OS level). As you know if Internet starts delivering multiplatform rich applications, the reasons to use Windows become less.
- Technogies like Flash threaten Microsoft's "monopol" on rich GUI-s, and Flash works on all platforms.
- Microsoft tries to convince the public that "Sparkle was never meant to compete with Flash, it's for apps and so on". While this is true, it's also false, because Flash is quickly heading into the applications arena, and Microsoft is quickly heading into the Internet rich GUI-s. Basically they meet in the middle and who survives isn't clear. But keep in mind both Adobe and (ex)Macromedia are totally aware that the Vista technologies are ALSO meant as Flash killer and don't fool yourself with what MS says.
- It's not true Avalon/XAML will work only on Windows Vista. For starters, it'll also work on Windows XP and 2003. Also Microsoft prepares cross-platform version of the technology, with less features, JavaScript support and so on, which has been demonstrated to work on a Mac. The initiative is called WPF/E, or: Windows Presentation Foundation / Everywhere.
- The Sparkle team has at least 4-5 ex. top (ex)Macromedia Flash employees, Flash gurus and alike. They all come in the team with their Flash habits and it shows in the interface of the program: it's simply MADE so Flash developers will dig it. And I dig it.
- Quartz is for web pages, don't confuse it with Sparkle, the Avalon XAML designer program.
- A weakness of Sparkle will be that it won't be suited for complex cartoons and animations like Flash is. Flash tried to move away from animations and cartoons as well in an attempt to look as a serious application platform, but later Macromedia regretted as they alienated their core audience, and the most creative artists out there. The latest version of Flash proves cartoons and animations ARE important after all, and a good share of the features are aided for artists.
Bah that should be about all important... I leave the conclusions to you.
Re:channel9 (Score:5, Informative)
(http://yotaku.homeip.net/)
And the videos about sparkle:
http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=115
http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=157
You is wrong (Score:3, Funny)