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Some Developers Leaving Google For Microsoft
Posted by
kdawson
on Mon Jun 30, 2008 06:45 PM
from the turning-tide-or-momentary-reversal dept.
from the turning-tide-or-momentary-reversal dept.
recoiledsnake writes "We have heard about lots of talented developers jumping ship from Microsoft to Google, but is the trend beginning to turn? Dare Obasanjo (a Microsoft employee) writes about a few high-profile people picking Microsoft over Google — either making the jump directly, or choosing Microsoft after receiving offers at both. Sergey Solyanik is back to Microsoft and he primarily gripes about the culture and lack of career development at Google. He writes, 'Everything is pretty much run by [engineering] — PMs and testers are conspicuously absent from the process. Google as an organization is not geared — culturally — to delivering enterprise class reliability to its user applications.' Danny Thorpe, who was the key architect of Google Gears, is back at Microsoft for his second stint working on developer technologies related to Windows Live."
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Is that so? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Everything is pretty much run by [engineering] -- PMs and testers are conspicuously absent from the process."
Oh what a fucking nightmare!
Re:Is that so? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah! They should be run by marketing and management people, just like at Microsoft! Everyone knows that engineers can't be relied upon to produce enterprise quality software without marketing's careful guidance and input.
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Re:Is that so? (Score:5, Funny)
Wow. Where is this alleged paradise where Program Managers STFU and pay attention to the coders? Where testers don't get to touch it until it's ready for testing?
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Re:Is that so? (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem really is when either function gets too much control. Marketing tends to get capricious about features and blows huge sums on "research" and end up with a Ford Fiero.
Engineering, well... I've seen low-level greatness that couldn't translate elegantly into customer-level value. I've seen projects never finish too.
The problem is probably management-level. *Someone* needs to crack a few heads together to get people back into reality. A good anecdote about the organizational problem was on /. a couple of days ago when the mighty Bill Gates was supposedly pissed about some feature/application/thing. He cracked heads near his level. One level below it turned into a managerial quagmire.
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Re:Is that so? (Score:5, Informative)
Labels aren't better than folders?
Labels can functionally completely replace folders, and surpass them.
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Re:Is that so? (Score:5, Informative)
Let me restate myself.
They can seamlessly, easily and completely replace folders. You used to put items in folders. Put labels on them and archive. It is the same thing, but even better, now one mail can have multiple labels which solves the dilemma of where to file it.
There are also extensions I've seen to have sub-labels that operate the way sub-folders do if you really want an old school nest. Technically you don't need extensions for this, but it helps the appearance for those who want to hide sub-folders/labels until you navigate to them.
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Right.... (Score:5, Funny)
"Google as an organization is not geared - culturally - to delivering enterprise class reliability to its user applications."
Whew, good thing Microsoft is.
Re:Right.... (Score:5, Funny)
And by the way, it's not enterprise-class, it's Constitution-class. Sheesh.
Parent
Re:Right.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah... sounds funny from the perspective of those of us who have suffered through the microsoft monopoly. But given that most organizations can't tell their asses from their elbows they may well be right. Google seems to grow and progress by throwing lots of young smart people at the problem, but the problem seems to be a moving target from day to day. But microsoft has managed to hold down a monopoly for 20 years.
Who are you going to take business process advice from? While microsoft's ethics are dubious at best it's very hard to argue with success.
-- godwin filter removed reference to unethical but successful leader --
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Re:Right.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Who are you going to take business process advice from? While microsoft's ethics are dubious at best it's very hard to argue with success.
But why latch onto the tail end of a 20-year-old monopoly who by all rights is beginning to falter, and seems to have no vision at all for the next 20?
That's what would worry me more. It's not what a company has already done, but what they're wanting to do.
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Organization is everything... (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't have to be, when the entire on-line world is your beta test laboratory.
Re:Organization is everything... (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between Microsoft and Google in this regard is that users pay to beta test Microsoft's sofwtare without being told it is, at best, in beta quality. Where as Google invites (initially selectively) people to try the product and provide feedback. They're in beta for a very long time because they want it to be stable before declaring version "1.0". Small contrast, but expectation goes a long way towards the perception of quality.
If I'm paying money for retail software, I expect a rock solid product, not the buggy POS that I have to wait for the first Service Pack to use even the most basic functionality.
Google is up front with the fact that their software is not necessarily ready for prime time and users can hedge their bets accordingly. That said, Google beta products are often many times better than the "final version" of software from other vendors.
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Re:Organization is everything... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Organization is everything... (Score:5, Insightful)
You'd think an 18,000 person company would be able to release a finished project once in a while.
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Money talks (Score:5, Insightful)
When I hear "...is not geared - culturally - to delivering enterprise class reliability to its user applications" as a reason to leave a company that's NOT microsoft to go work FOR microsoft, I have to wonder exactly how large the dump truck full of money was.
Re:Money talks (Score:5, Funny)
You are thinking small. Ask how many dump trucks full of money.
Microsoft may consider it worthwhile to throw money at developers to keep them from working for google.
Of course some people are going to choose Microsoft over Google. Just like there are some people that like wasabi flavored ice cream. There are freaks everywhere.
Parent
Hypocrisy or cluelessness? (Score:5, Funny)
"Google as an organization is not geared -- culturally -- to delivering enterprise class reliability to its user applications." - Sergey Solyanik
As opposed to Microsoft, which seems to be not geared - professionally - to delivering enterprise class reliability to its user applications.
I don't know what "PMs" are (Score:5, Funny)
The reason is obvious (Score:5, Interesting)
To waste time vs eyeballs (Score:5, Interesting)
but most of them primarily help people waste time online (blogger, youtube, orkut, etc)
No, these are things to sell eyeballs for advertisers. That's what Google is about, making money with selling ads around easy to use and "fun" tools.
that'll teach me (Score:5, Funny)
I've worked at both (Score:5, Interesting)
I've worked at both. In terms of working environment, I found them both to be good, though in different ways (better food, more excitement at Google; private office at Microsoft). In terms of quality of life, I prefer Seattle, but in terms of jobs and networking, the Bay Area wins. In terms of software development processes, Microsoft's may look better on paper, but Google's seems to be better at actually delivering. In terms of management... Ballmer makes me wince. So, so far, it's a toss up.
The question to me is where each company is going. When Google release a new product, there is buzz and excitement, and usually something expensive and complicated gets cheaper and simpler. When Microsoft releases a new product, people either shrug or shudder and hold on to their wallets. Microsoft keeps trying to change things (Zune, Live, whatever), they keep buying companies (Danger, whatever), and it just doesn't seem to be working for them. Given the choice, I'd probably choose to work for Google; I just don't see Microsoft going anywhere.
In other news... (Score:5, Funny)
...several sales associates left Walmart for Target.
Re:Cost of Living? (Score:5, Funny)
No doubt that's why the bookstores all have huge sections on 'dealing with depression' and great titles like 'bad weather, good mood' and 'gray skies aren't the end'.
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Re:Cost of Living? (Score:5, Funny)
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