Want To Make Video Games?

Invader Zim writes "Looks like Levelord, of Ritual fame, and some folks at id, and Ensemble Studios have teamed together with Southern Methodist University to create a new school for people that want to work in the video games industry. It's called the Guildhall. Also a story about it at GameTutorials."

Nice! The trolls here are being MODDED UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

Refreshing to see points going to people that aren't so uptight!

Don't do it!

[gpinzone]

The video game industry is already cut-throat. It's already hard enough to make a living using your programming skills. Imagine how difficult it's going to be like to get a job with "Video Game College" on your resume.

Besides, do you really think a Methodist church is going to teach you how to create First Person Shooters?!

Re:Southern Methodist???

[stratjakt]

Wal-Mart choosing not to carry a game/album/movie for whatever reason they choose has nothing to do with free speech.

Nor does a school deciding whats appropriate material for coursework.

Freedom of speech has nothing to do with people listening to you.

Once you graduate you can write whatever game you want, and if retailers dont want to sell it, thats their freedom of choice being excercised. No one persons rights (percieved or real) may infringe on anothers.

Nice idea ... but ...

[mustangdavis]

NO ONE IS HIRING!!!!!


< Venting >

Thats great that they're going to share some of their "trade secrets", but it won't do anyone any good if they can't land a job!!

So basically, they're going to help flood the programming world with young, ambitious "game" programmers that won't know how to or want to do anything but make video games ...

This will lead to flooding the market (even worse than it already is) with badly designed games that have a couple of pieces of eye candy ...

Actually, I wonder how many apps Blizzard just got for their Unix sysadmin position ...

... I think that would clearly illustrate just how flooded the market is with "computer people" that want to work in the video game market ...


The biggest problem will be the number of lives a school like this will ruin ... these people will TRY to get a job with an established video game company ... then TRY to start up their own video game company after 6+ months of unemployment ... then they'll rush a crappy product to market so that they don't starve to death ...

Trust me ... I have a company like this ... and one our programmers did this!!!!

(btw: our games don't make money ... it is our web hosting and web design that makes money and allows us to keep making games .... so how are unemployed people going to make games if you have to pay to keep games running?????)


< /Venting >

Over-rated

[Anonymous Coward]

Making video games is over-rated. If you enjoy very tight deadlines and having to cut corners due to time and budget restrictions then that's all well and good.

The pay is crap too.

18 months...

[DaytonCIM]

and $37,000 tutition, there had better be job placement!

I would steer clear

[chrisseaton]

I have just applied to universities here in the UK, and I looked at the few computer game design courses available.

Most of them are very poor, they have low enterance requirements (someone at my college got in without even a maths A level!), and aren't run by any of the good universities (imagine Oxford doing a BA in computer game design - hardly).

I've opted to do a generic as possible degree, a masters in computer science, at a good, respected university (either Oriel college Oxford, Durham or Bristol).

I can't imagine why anyone would want to do one of these fashionable degrees like "wireless computing", "internet technology" or the computer games ones. People who want to do game design should study maths, physics or pure computer science.

Think of it like this, how many really good directors or actors went to one of these film schools one sees advertised in the back of film mags? Probably not many.

Re:Thank God!

[_anomaly_]

IMHO, this sounds like a good place to go *after* getting that CS degree.
If they either don't teach or don't require some or most of those "other things", this would turn out to be the MCSE of the game programming world, if it survived at all...
anyone who's even slightly familiar with programming knows that game programming involves math very heavily...

Re:Sociology, folkdancing, and now this

[GSFPathogen]

"They're trying to produce a generation of young Americans so dismally uneducated that they'll fall for any idiotic junk-science and pseudo-philosophy that comes down the pike."

I hate to point out the obvious, but that's kinda how things are as we speak.

Re:Whoa they want you to have Experience already?

[dnaumov]

Duh, they aren't going to teach you programming from scratch. They assume you're able to write something like Pong, Snake or Tetris if you decide to attend and need proof that you can do that.

Re:Attracting the best of the best

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

That is because most of the word still hears when you say "game programer" is really "I play games for a living".

At some point in time this will change but not in the near future.

I wish them good luck, and I would love to "play games for living".

Re:Don't do it!

[bongoras]

Please, read the website and expand your horizons just a little. Calling SMU a "Christian Church" is like saying "Oh, those nice boys who play football for Notre Dame must be such good Catholics..."

Re:Attracting the best of the best

[mboedick]

This is not my perception of the gaming industry. I think there are far more programmers who want to work in game programming than there are jobs available. Especially the big names (Blizzard, id, etc.) can afford to be extremely selective, taking the cream of the crop of programmers. I seriously doubt that the insurance industry inspires the same response.

Also consider that of all programmers, probably 0.001% work on video games, and the rest work in run-of-the-mill transaction-based business systems, embedded systems, etc.

Any game programmers out there who can back me up on the relative difficulty of finding work in this area?

Re:Attracting the best of the best

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell them that you appreciate the work being done to create wonderful new games but that if good programmers are put off by poor working conditions and salaries, you will be forced to use less and less secure and intelligently designed alternatives.

And then what do the congressmen and senators do? Minimum wage for game programmers? How much? We have labor laws that apply to everyone. Don't like your job? Don't expect the government to fix it for you, it's time for a career change.

Re:I would steer clear

[Anonymous Coward]

You`re missing the point completely. Degrees educate but don`t give you talent or ability. Do whatever degree you think fit, but it takes more than a piece of paper to make the grade - you don`t need a degree to be a good programmer. It is intellectual snobbery to think otherwise.

Re:The Guildhall?

[ChaosDiscord]

Seriously, they should probably be going out of their way to appeal to creative non-geeks, artists and writers who can come up with new ideas and revitalize the stagnant game market. Sure, you can always eke out a few dollars from the latest boring iteration of a proven formula, Grand Theft Auto 7 or Warcraft VI. What the industry needs is fresh ideas from different sorts of people.

Ideas are cheap. Go to any game developer, be they an artist, programmer, level designer, or whatever, and you'll find dozens of interesting ideas for games.

There are two problems. 1) Creative doesn't mean good. An idea may just be stupid. A creative idea might even be interesting and exciting, but not actually produce something fun to play (like the inspired but unplayable Black and White). 2) The business types are cowards. Generic Fighting Game XXVII is seen as safe. It doesn't matter that there are (even after filtering out the bad ideas), many, many creative ideas available to them, they're only interested in low risk projects. It's harsh, but it's also their money.

All that said, while yes the industry is awash in clones and knock-offs, there is always some genuine innovation going on. In the last year for the PS/2 we've seen imaginative titles like Sly Cooper [techtv.com], Kingdom Hearts [techtv.com], and Rez [techtv.com] . On other systems we saw Animal Crossing [techtv.com], Freedom Force [techtv.com], Morrowind [techtv.com], and Mafia [techtv.com] . Head back a little further and you have brilliant titles like Ico [techtv.com], Jet Grind Radio [ign.com], or Pikmin [nintendo.com] . Yes, Grant Theft Auto: Vice City and Warcraft III are both derivative, but they're sequels to cutting edge games that changed expectations. Grand Theft Auto III redefined open ended game play and believable worlds. Warcraft effectively popularized real-time strategy games. Perhaps they're derivative, but they're fundamentally good games which have been continually refined and improved. Why pick on them if they shipping games that are genuinely fun? Instead, complain about Generic Real-Time Strategy II, Racing Game Number 8576, or Street Soul Mortal Ultimate Fighter Extreme Blade Combat IV.

not my experience...

[gibster]

As someone who has also just filled in his UCAS form and got 6 offers from universities, i'd have to say i disagree with this.
Most of the courses are at Ex-polytechnics, with the low requirements that go with them, however on the most part the are excellent courses that do well to teach generic work as well straight games applications.
Case in point being my current favourite: Hull
An old style university doing Computer Science With Games Development
Entry requirement being BCC
Don't confuse low entry with bad courses, they dont' always go together, I have been to Oxford on the open days (i'm predicted AABA for A level) I'd have to say their courses are great theoretical courses, but seem to be incredibly low on practical applications.
Just my views though YMMV

Re:Attracting the best of the best

[ChaosDiscord]

I'm sorry, I'm confused. Perhaps I didn't smoke enough of whatever crack it is that you're enjoying. What exactly am I writing my representative about? To complain that because there is a glut of programmers who want to write games, many of them skilled, that there is a fall in the salaries of game programmers? What's my representative going to do? Pass the "Programmers Deserve Higher Minimum Wages Law of 2004?" I almost suspect that you're trying for Funny, but confused a few people into Interesting. Programmers chose to be game programmers. They're drawn by the glamor and glitz. By and large they financially do well, not exceptionally, but well. If they wanted better conditions and salaries, they can jump to the far larger non-game software industry. I myself entered the industry desiring to write software. When I discovered that it primarily ran the blood of new programmers just out of college, paid them (relatively) poorly and treated them like crap, I decided it wasn't for me. Another friend chose to stick with it, he valued the job enough that the pay and the conditions were acceptable. (In fact, he stuck with it long enough that he now makes quite reasonable pay and has acceptable working conditions.) The industry is full of people who want to be there and almost universally can move to jobs with less work and more money. Why mess with the system?

Re:Hmmm

[Sebastopol]

not to mention the extensive computer science back ground

Robin and Rand Miller (Myst) didn't have a comp-sci background. Nor did Roberta Williams (King's Quest). And Moru Iwatani (Pac-Man) was a graphic designer! Some of the best computer games in history came from non Comp-sci, non-engineers.

Linear algebra only become hot in computer games in the past decade, with the 3D glut. Q3 is fancy, but boring and one dimensional, same with Wolfenstein to some extent

A good game starts with a vision, not physics and math. Most of these computer games classes are teaching design skills so that game content gets better.

Just because you have a PhD in physics and compsci doesn't mean you will make the world's best game.

It's like classical musicians: they master their instrument, but hardly any of them [can] actually compose!

All that for just 40K+

[Shamanin]

"Tuition for the first term includes a fully loaded computer specially configured for digital game development. The student will use this computer through the six terms at The Guildhall. Ownership of the computer will pass to the student at the end of the fourth term"

Hmmm... that would make the computer worth about $2.00 by the time you graduate (which you can tack onto the $1.00 your degree will be worth).

What ever happened to the old way of learning how to code (be it for gaming or any other software centric industry)? Go to a normal university and study CS.

Damn, same ole crap

[UrGeek]

"Twice a year, 100 are chosen for The Guildhall...This is an opportunity to test your mettle with the best in the business...It isn't easy, but The Guildhall can get you there. Do you accept the challenge?"

Weed out the weak, fight to the death, king of the mountain, competitive CRAP!! While this is the world of many games, this is totally inappropriate in education. Education should never be a boot camp. Damn competition! Let it be about teaching and nurturing, guiding, and learning for Christ's sake! And this is supposely a Christian college????

Re:I would steer clear

[Elwood P Dowd]

I've opted to do a generic as possible degree, a masters in computer science, at a good, respected university (either Oriel college Oxford, Durham or Bristol).

You are completely right. For example, the broad-based education that I received at ITT Technical Institute has given me the confidence necessary to become the director of MIS at a Fortune 500 firm.

(Sorry, that won't be funny to foreigners.)

Uhhhh

[Erwos]

As a CS major (junior-level) at one of the top CS schools in the US (#11, last I checked), I honestly have to wonder what they're going to teach at that course that I couldn't get from a few books and a generalized CS degree. The coursework itself will be useful, but the question is, do the benefits outweigh the costs?

And, moving on, I teach myself lots of things in the programming field. I resent the idea that people somehow think I'm "dumb and don't understand the real world" because I'm smart enough to realize that guidance in learning is a good thing. It seems to be a fairly common opinion on Slashdot that kids in college are mechanical robots who can only do what teacher's taught them. I don't confuse this with knowing everything - but I have confidence that I'm smart enough to learn.

-Erwos

Don't waste your money

[WindowsTroll]

Let me preface my comments by stating that I worked in the computer gaming industry for several years. During my years in the gaming industry, I have worked on titles for PSX and Windows, and also worked on what was probably the earliest commercially available full 3D game engine for massive multiplayer online games - and this was back in 95 before such things became commonplace. So while you may not agree with my comments, they are not without foundation and experience.

Look at the cost.
For a time commitment of 18 months, you will find yourself $37,000 in the debt. After which time you will hold a 'certificate' that only qualifies you to work in a single industry. Since this is not a degree, but merely a certificate (what is a MSCE certificate worth?), you won't have much to fall back on if the game career doesn't work out.

Look at what you get.
You get a 'fully loaded computer' for an extra fee of $5000. A great deal of the cost is probably software, but you can build a phenominal computer for less that $2000, and since they are probably getting the software at educational discounts, even if they are installing SoftImage, Maya, 3DSMax, Photoshop, and Lightwave for artists. The software required for programmers is probably less. A copy of Visual Studio for Windows since they will probably teach game programming for DirectX. As a student at about any university, you could get the stuff for less.

Who is doing the teaching?
It is not really clear, but from the endorsements of the industry leaders who say such things as " I can't wait to teach at The Guildhall", it seems to infer that the people listed on the sight might be doing the teaching. If this is the case, then consider

John Romero - did level design at id and thought he was God. Part of the braintrust at ION Storm (along with Todd Porter and Tom Hall ) that blew through over $30 million of Eidos' money with only Daikatana and Anachronox to show for it. Not the model of success that you want to emulate.

Kill Creek - aka Stevie Case. Claim to fame was beating John Romero in Quake, getting the opportunity to yell "Suck it down, bitch" back to John Romero, posing nude for Playboy, and marrying John Romero.

Tom Hall - okay, Tom has a decent rap sheet with Anachronox, Rise of the Triad, Terminal Velocity and a lot of earlier stuff that was very pretty good at the time.

What does this certificate qualify you for?
Working in the game industry, which by the way, pays very poorly. Game companies staff the production teams with one or two senior members who actually earn a real salary, and then staff the rest with kids fresh out of school who will work the typical 70 hour weeks for peanuts and not complain because the job is cool. While this is exceptional fun while you are young, if you ever decide to settle down, get married, have kids or buy a house, you will find yourself looking in a different industry for work. However, game programming skills, if you have a rock solid education and phenominal math and programming skills, can get you hired writing simulators for military contractors. Trust me, though, you won't be learning what you need for these types of jobs in 18 months.

If you decide to leave the gaming industry, you won't be qualified to work in any other field. This game programming certificate is probably even worse than the Devry/ITT schools that convince people that they will make lots of money with a two year tech degree.

My personal experience is that most of the programmers who do well in the gaming industry have degrees in Computer Science with a strong math and physics background, or a physics degree with a strong programming and math background. You can't really try to shortcut the process down to 18 months and expect to have the qualifications that employers are looking for.

My own $0.02 so you don't waste $37,000.