Interview With Ximian's Nat Friedman

Sheepish writes "OSNews features a long and interesting interview with Nat Friedman, of Ximian fame. Nat tells all and talks about the upcoming Ximian Desktop 2 and its differences from Gnome 2, the difficulties of developing the MS Exchange Connector, Linux as a desktop, Mono and plans for Gnome integration, the hundrends of OpenOffice.org changes made to make OOo like a Gnome2 app, and how Ximian feels... about Apple's business. Four screenshots of Ximian Desktop 2 are included too."

UI Consistency

[Rura Penthe]

I'm pleased that XD2 is striving for complete UI consistency. This is something I've always felt was lacking in the overall user experience for linux. Having a coherent set of human interface guidelines ala Apple's materials for OS X can do nothing but help.

Re:Most scary Ximian OOo change

[pr0c]

Whats scary? The fact that they admit it or the fact that its true?

Maybe I'm in the minority

[Anonymous Coward]

I think since RedHat has made a concerted effor to make their distro much more "desktop friendly" the whole Ximian desktop loses a bit of it's shine.

I recall back when Ximian first started to come out with some slick looking stuff they were much nicer, asthetically speaking, than any linux distro out there. With Bluecurve and the maturation of Gnome 2.xx it seems the need for Ximaina is greatly diminished.

By the looks of things here I see no need to upgrade from RedHat 9.0 with the exception of getting Evolution 1.4. (And actually if it's faster than the butt slow 1.2 version that would be a good upgrade, now that I think about it.)

Re:Ximian Desktop on Red Hat?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you stop reading when the changes to things like OpenOffice were made or the Printing system?

Re:Most scary Ximian OOo change

[chetohevia]

Well, given that you don't actually lose the data, it's reassuring.

Since .doc ends up being the underlying file format, the dialog is just needlessly alarming, and they just took it out.

Will you pay 99$ for...

[twener]

... fonts of undefined quality and quantity, 3rd party plugins freely available (Adobe Acrobat Reader, Real Audio Player, Flash Player, Java run-time-environment), 30 days installation support and 1 year "high-speed" download (you could also use mirrors)? Or will you continue to use StarOffice, if it's still included for this price, if there is an integrated Ximian OOo? And for only 69$ more you could read your exchange mails. Pricy.

Re:UI Consistency

[StAugustineLovesYou]

The problem is that with such a large percentage of the desktop market, there is a consistent UI, MSWindows (2000, XP, whatever). It's hard to get away from the "it doesn't look like windows" complaints and appeal to larger than niche markets.

Still on the .NET path to Hell

[Col_Panic]

As long as those GNOME fools continue down that insane path to hell that is .NET and Ximian is leading the way to "freedom by enslaving ourselves to MicroSoft Standards" there is no way I'm touching either GNOME or Ximian. Miguel, et. al. are just a bunch of opportunists that are using Free Software and Free Software developers to make a quick buck. And lets face it, even with Ximian trying to clean up the mess, GNOME still is one big freakin mess. The one line about the desktop theme thats "also a Nautilus theme, a Galeon theme, an XMMS theme, an OpenOffice.org theme, a Metacity theme, and an Icon theme" made me chuckle.... god forbid in their rush to shove all their heads up Bill Gates' arse they ever go back and fix the fragmented hideous cludge that is GNOME.

Re:UI Consistency

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually if you've been using KDE its been pretty consistant as opposed to Gnome where the file dialog varies between apps and many gtk apps make up their own UI styles. In KDE if its Ksomething chances are it looks like it fits with KDE, that's not the case with Gnome yet. Of course you go out of version and you get what you get, but overall KDE is better about this.

What I'd personally love to see Ximian do is rip out and fix that mess which is Natulius. Why did Eazel build a file manager that can't even manage files?

For a good bit a fun do something most users need to do every day. Browse to smb mounted share that has more than 100 files in it. You'll reach retirement age before the files are displayed.(Yes that's with file count and picture thumbnails off!). Compared to Konq Natuilus is a bloated piece of crap.

I say this as a full time user of Gnome so its not like I have an axe to grind here. I love Gnome, I just avoid Nautilus like the plague. Why do the Nautilus devs keep adding functions before fixing the basic flaws that have been around for years now?

The Mono revolution?

[alext]

Some interesting claims made for Mono:

1. Mono can be the universal component hub, allowing you to use C objects from Python, C++ objects from Perl, and so on.

We've certainly been here before. As has been pointed out on /. a number of times, ActiveX, CORBA, DCE etc. have all made claims like this and have met with limited success.

First there is the inefficiency introduced by constantly translating data (where equivalents exist at all), second the impedance mismatch of languages with quite different call models.

Yes, there's some capability here for scripting code written in low-level languages, but that's quite a different thing from claiming to provide universal, peer-level interoperability.

Note that this isn't the same argument that says that bytecode level interworking is doomed - one is still limited to a rather C#-like subset of features, just as one is to a Java-like subset in a JVM.

Nat goes on to give an example of how Mono is changing things:

This is possible because C#'s language features make it trivial to automatically bind C# objects into other languages. Check out Python Scripting for .NET: http://www.zope.org/Members/Brian/PythonNet/FAQ.ht ml.

OK, let's see what Brian thinks this new Python Dotnet is bringing to the table:

" While a solution like Jython provides "two-way" interoperability, this package only provides "one-way" integration. Meaning, while Python can use types and services implemented in .NET, managed code cannot generally use classes implemented in Python.

A Jython-like solution for .NET would certainly be doable and useful - but it would also be a lot more work than the current approach."

Hardly a ringing endorsement of Mono here. Perhaps the last reference will be the proposition that we can't refuse?

Nat says:

There's also a Mono-based JavaScript compiler in the works (MS already has one, of course).

Doesn't the Java world have one of those too? Yes, in fact, it's had one for five years. Rhino [mozilla.org] is a full Javascript compiler, interpreter and debugger, released by Netscape in April 98 and still developed under the Mozilla banner. Not some also-ran knock-off here, but something used in quite significant products such as the Resin web app server.

So, draw your own conclusions about what real new capabilities Mono will bring to the OSS world.

And don't forget that there is at least one company that will definitely gain from this all this free marketing and "innovation".

Re:Still on the .NET path to Hell

[Col_Panic]

I never said there is something wrong with Red Hat, et.al., making a buck from Free Software, you just ASSUMED that. And I doubt you have had had much experience with the "real world" you pretend to know about if you haven't seen what happens to anyone that gets in bed with MicroSoft. Sure, Bill & co have played nice so far with the Mono fools, but we all know that the moment it becomes a "standard" they will be squashed. If you think any differently then you are living in some fantasy world and should get a clue about what Mono is REALLY all about... Miguel taking yet another shortcut ... but this one leads right to hell...

Baysan filtering for Evolution

[Gyorg_Lavode]

Now will they include baysan filtering in evolution or will I be forced to use tricks to route the mail around in circles? If MSN and netzero can use spam filtering as a mainstay of their advertising and it makes a lot of big press here and is able to be integrated into mozilla, I think it would prove worthwhile to have it integrated in Evolution as well.

Re:Rock on, Ximian...

[TheRaven64]

Though significantly delayed, XD2 was released when Ximian got everything right... and they have... finally I have a desktop environment that I can proud to show to my consulting customers as a viable option...

However, the flip-side of this is that they have pulled support for fresh installs of Ximian Gnome (1.4). For home users, waiting a week before being able to install Ximian would not be a problem, however, I have a room full of Linux boxen I'm admining for the university in my spare time, all of which run Ximian Gnome 1.4. I just came to install a new one, and found that the only way to do this is to leave it with a standard gnome install for a week (during which time people's desktop will be different if they use that machine) and then install XD2 on all of them next week. Thanks Ximian.

People complain about Microsoft and RedHat discontinuing support for a product shortly after a replacement is released, but discontinuing support for one version before rolling out the replacement is astonishing. They should have at least a month of overlap, so that admins can do the upgrade in their own time, rather than on an external timetable (after all, it's not like it's a security patch). In future, I think I will stick to official gnome releases, and wait for the stuff from Ximian to be merged back.

Re:Still on the .NET path to Hell

[alext]

Unfortunately, the casual reader might gain the impression from your post that Microsoft have made the whole of Dotnet public (around 1200 C# classes) rather than just C# and the CLR (around 150 classes).

I'm sure you will be as anxious as I am to clarify the true position, perhaps by mentioning Steve Ballmer's comments from March last year where he states that MS holds patents on Dotnet technologies and that free implementations will not be allowed, or by comparing the MS position with that of Sun and Java, which, under the JSPA [apache.org] explicitly permits free implementations.

zealots?

[Anonymous Coward]

Both moderates and zealots are on their own tacks; both valid, both fitting their own apparent wind. Unfortunately, those on your reach assume that only one option is the viable option, the other, you brand as bunk. This I find interesting: you, an aspiring "moderate", are so bloody quick to label persons with a not-so-moderate POV 'zealots'. We've room for all, and we, the collective community, have our own feelings, perceptions, and what-have-u regarding these issues, but we can all stand to look about some, appreciating the extremes.

yaddah, yaddah, ...

So, please, you STFU, with your STFU. Allow the rest of us to blather on; let the mod system rule; and appreciate the vast diversity of opinion.

Enterprise Carpet all its cracked up to be?

[dieman]

Aside from multiple distribution support, is anyone taken aback about how many companies are essentially peddeling what an admin can do with apt-get/cfengine (with updates to cfengine configs via rsync/ssh) with Debian?

I too support hundreds of machines, and I find my worst experience is making sure i've got a decent, up to date for bleeding edge kernel handy and a discover database to match it. Nevermind X. :) Since I follow woody and roll in some of my own updates alongside other users updates, its quite easy to have a 'modern' gnome2 system that has been updated against major security issues.

Having a nice automatic installer (autoinstall, heavily hacked, ask for source if you care) and good remote mass administration tools are the two things that make my life easier.

Be weary of supporting these companies, I just don't think they have many peoples best interests in mind if you have a clue handy. Ximian is supporting propretiary file formats (doc!) now, redhat is selling 2 year development cycles (wasn't that a debian complaint a ways back?), and many of them are only selling their 64-bit installers for nearly $1k a pop.

Re:I'm salivating

[bogie]

Yea because you really need more then ssh to admin your linux servers.

Re:Most scary Ximian OOo change

[mijok]

According to Microsoft [microsoft.com]:"Office 2001 for Mac uses the same file format as Office 98 for Mac, so it's completely compatible. It's also completely compatible with Office 97 for Windows and Office 2000 for Windows. They all use the same format to save files."
(IIRC OpenOffice only has the "Save as Microsoft Word/Whatever 97/2000/XP" option).
But yes, I'm fully aware of the fact that opening older formats in newer works better than in the other direction, however; my point is that MS is forced to take into account that users that upgrade still need to be able to share files with those using older versions and thus they cannot completely break compatibility. And MS also realizes that they need to ensure that people use their formats as the obvious, default choice (and thus not ask too much "which formats can you read/write"), so albeit OpenOffice.org (etc.) have the disadvantage of being forced to reverse-engineer the formats MS isn't able to change them absolutely freely either, which was the concern the parent poster had.

Re:OSX

[elbobo]

Nat was talking about OS X in corporate environments.

So whilst it sounds like you've managed to get a sweet setup for little cost, it doesn't really have much bearing on what Nat was saying or where Ximian is trying to go.

And as an aside: Ximian quite neatly solve those software update issues you complain about, with their Red Carpet package manager.

Re:OSX

[alienw]

[rant]

Sure, trade RPM dependency hell (which is really bullshit if you use a modern distribution) for the apple monopoly / shareware hell. Right. With macs and osx, you are forced to either shell out $30 to $100 to do _ANYTHING_ remotely useful, like encoding video, burning DVDs, or backing up your files, or pirate the abovementioned software. Sure, you can use free software, but then you have to mess with porting it and compiling it for PPC and OSX -- a major pain in the ass. That's pretty much the reason why I dumped Windows -- it's not stability or security. I'd say that XP is about as stable as OSX. Both are less stable than my Linux box.

Also, the simple solution to your Linux problems would be to either use packages compiled for your distribution (which is rather simple with URPMI) or to download and compile the source or source RPMs. I don't think you've used linux "for years". More like a week. Anyone who used Linux even for a month would know that packages built for Suse won't work well on Mandrake, which is probably what you were trying to do.

Besides, I would much rather use windows than go for vendor lock-in with apple. I thought people had enough of that with proprietary unix boxes. I have a severe problem with having to buy all my hardware and most of the software from one overpriced company that also actively prosecutes anyone selling compatible hardware. I don't know what planet Apple is living on, but a 1GHz machine with a small hard drive, outdated video card and hardly any RAM should not cost $1500 in this day and age.

[/rant]