No Americans Need Apply 1374
Victor G. Sommers writes "Daniel Soong, who lost his programming job to Indian offshore companies, is willing to relocate to India. 'It would be really interesting to work in Bangalore,' he says. 'But I was told, "Daniel, it is against the law for you to work here. You can come here on vacation, but you can't work here."' Indian officials have told him they don't hire Americans." An article in ComputerWorld talks about the possibility of getting more than you bargained for in outsourced code.
Of course he can't work there... (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't immigrate to work unless you can prove that you can do a job that no one else in the country can do.
If it wasn't for this law, the US would be flooded (more so than now) with techs and doctors from all over asia.
Sovereign country (Score:3, Insightful)
USA is also a sovereign country. Let's do the same. It's about time we stop issuing visas to people who steal native born Americans' jobs.
Before some slashbot calls me a racist, let me tell you that I don't care if you are a black, white, hindu, christian, jew or a muslim. If you're American, I've got nothing against you. But if you think you should be able to just waltz in and have a job or study at one of our universities, think again.
What's this? (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean we let people from all over come here and work. Ummmmm, except we don't.
You can get a tourist visa to visit most any place in the world. I went to China earlier this year. But those visas don't allow you to work.
Why is this even a story? It's the way things are.
The bigger story (Score:5, Insightful)
Should read no forgieners .... (Score:2, Insightful)
What the case really is (Score:5, Insightful)
Unlike the US, India, being a developing nation, with a very large economy has always had a dirth of jobs. There are a few hundred people to fill up a single job vacancy. Thus, India has *never* felt the need for foreign employees.
However, I know for a fact that a large number of Americans/Europeans (and even Russians in defense companies) regularly work on contract basis. I had a Russian neighbor long back, working in India on a 2 year contract with a defense company.
So people, before you start flaming, ponder over the fact that a law for hiring outside employees doesn't exist because there hasn't ever been a need for it. Now with the outsourcing, it may not be too long before the government comes up with an H-1 like plan.
Re:Of course he can't work there... (Score:4, Insightful)
A MAN SHOT HIMSELF BECAUSE HE ENDED UP TRAINING HIS INDIAN REPLACEMENT.
So, if this man could come to the US and BE TRAINED by a CITIZEN what could this man do that the CITIZEN could not?
Can't work there? Why are they here? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
But as a Dutch citizen you can follow your job to Germany or the UK or Italy, because within the EU there is free trade for both labor and for capital. "Free trade" advocates these days want free movement of capital and goods, but not workers.
In WTO-world, corporations can move their jobs across borders but workers cannot follow. This one-sidedness pushes salaries down everywhere, as companies seek the cheapest available labor.
This can't be true (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What's this? (Score:2, Insightful)
Thats what the article talks about, jobs being lost over seas. So yes they do come from all over to work here, just that the don't have to be here to have the same effect on taking our jobs. We can't go over there to work, but its cool for them to take all of our jobs.
Re:What's this? (Score:2, Insightful)
I think it merits discussion.
Re:What's this? (Score:2, Insightful)
And if it were the other way around... (Score:2, Insightful)
When it's Americans being forbidden to work in a foreign country, it's that country's right to do so.
But if it were the other way around, and Indian people coming to this country were suddenly forbidden to work here, imagine the uproar that would cause among Slashdotters!
Even if you are going to be wrong, at least be consistent!
Why yes, it *is* illegal to work with no visa (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to inject dull ol' reality into another 'The Indians Are Coming!' flap, but why exactly is it surprising that he can go to India on holiday and can't work there? Does he have a work visa for India? Are Indians allowed to work in the US with no visa?
I always figured the general pattern was that to work in country A, you need to be a citizen of country A or have a work permit issued by country A. Did this suddenly stop applying in the case of Americans wanting to work in India?
Other than that, well, it's a competitive marketplace. If other people are selling the same skills -- or what are percieved as the same skills -- cheaper, then he's got to change something.
Incidentally, I've known some terrible experiences with outsourcing to cheap countries and I think it's generally a false economy. But on the other hand, I think I'd rather have a disoriented and inexperienced Indian working for me than listen to this guy's whining.
Re:Can't work there? Why are they here? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Of course he can't work there... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's not called stealing (Score:2, Insightful)
Free Trade Double Standard (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And if it were the other way around... (Score:2, Insightful)
Another 'HP' printer? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course, California is just going to hand out drivers licenses and soc. security cards to anyone no matter how they got there, with no proof of background or even who they are.
I did it the hard way.. Spending thousands on lawyers, when I just could have showed up with my hand out.
But then I'm a white Canadian, so I guess I had no choice.
Attorney Fees? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me explain something. (Score:5, Insightful)
2) I use Macromedia Director extensively on a mac. I have since 1987. I even worked on Director for about 4 years at Macromedia. Director MX for the mac was ported by a company in India. IT SUCKS ASS. A vast majority of "details" that make software great are gone. It is now just "usable" and annoying. I will saddly admit that the windoes version of Director MX is much more usable than the mac version. Whomever ported it, just doesn't get it. What really sucks is that this crappy ass port is what I have to use every day. Yeah. Woo. shoot me.
3) I used to contract for McGraw Hill in Carlsbad. We took a major project that was about to fail, developed and released the 4 CD set on time and budget for McGraw-Hill. After I left, under financial pressure, one of my co workers told me that things were about to change. This biz guy from a software firm in India come in to talk to the biz guys at McGraw-Hill and states "my programmers can write 1000 lines of code in a hour and they are pennies on the dollar." WHAT MORON measures productivity in "lines of code per hour?" Obviously, the business guys who don't understand programming. Last I hard, a lot of Glencoe/McGraw-Hill's development moved offshore to India.
Leaves alot to think about.
Re:Duh... (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me get this straight: I can not expect Indians to hire anybody from the USA because I need to be tolerant of their society, but I must hire anybody other than an American to be inclusive?
Yea, still makes no sense.
BTW, obviously not a direct response to your post, just staying on topic and adding a new point with historical context.
A bit of perspective... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like I'm shocked that there's now a heated debate about Indian labor law among the various IANAIndianLaborLs here -- that's why we're here, right? -- but you may want to wait for someone in possession of even a single real fact to come along before drawing a conclusion.
Mismodded humour (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm imagining it
business as usual ...
utter silence ensues .....
Heck, I'm on an EU passport, and *I* don't have the right to work in the USA. This is perfectly normal practice worldwide - I'm not saying it's right, just commonplace.
So why does this bit of humour get a + insightfull moderation?
that is the problem of free trade (Score:2, Insightful)
perhaps we need a redefinition of free trade as a condition in which you can put lots of people out of work in one location and then not allow those people to move to where the jobs are so that we can destroy the middle class.
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
What'll be the end of this, though? Eventually there'll be enough stabilization over the globe that it won't matter as much. I don't think that it'll happen in my lifetime, so it won't help me any, but as the world grows closer, I could envision this happening. Some countries with less free market play than here will have an advantage, for a while, but ultimately I think that it'll even out.
The other trouble is that we're seeing paradigm shifts that people aren't ready for. Remember what happened to the Swiss watch and clock makers once Japanese engineers perfected the use of quartz for accurate timekeeping? Their entire industry disappeared in a matter of months. In this case, if programmers as a whole are overpaid or are charging too much for their work as others perceive it, then the others are going to find a solution that doesn't involve the programmers. It's happened in other industries before, it'll happen again, I'm sure.
Re:Of course he can't work there... (Score:3, Insightful)
He could get an H-1B visa, evidently.
Terminate the H1/L1 visa program (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
yeah they pretty much did that..
i guess.. why else would there be so much 'green card lottery' spam circling(or the usual get in through marriage fraud and illegal emigrants that work in sweatshops, i bet those mexicans are not planning on just coming aboard for few benefits and then going back).
and you mean that he wouldn't be paying american taxes and generating the american company money while working there, and then "escaping" all the benefits like pensionary to another country? a working age worker is just the kind of a guy you would want to come into the country for few years(and then haul his ass back home when he starts to cost more than what he generates).
Re:Duh... (Score:0, Insightful)
If you had known how strict some of the countries are on worker rights i think you woyld have beeen surprised. There is a lot of industry certification and regualtions that monitors these factories. Getting all the paperwork done was very expensive and we repeatedly had to include governmental officials in our business in order to get the paperwork done.
And why should US companies _not_ move some parts of their operations to Asia if that can secure the work of others in the USA?
The truth is that many skilled asians really wants to work in these jobs while many lazy american workers don't wants to get their hands dirty.
Most of the asians workers work harder and are willing to work with a bonus scheme while american workers demand a fixed pay and many benefits like expensive health insurance and free lunch time.
On top of that our asian empoyees are more willing to work long hours in order on demand in order to produce more when we get a big contract. American workers on the other side demands a lot in extra pay in the way that i wonder if they really supports our business.
I have realizzed that most of them only think about themselfes and not about the good relationship between the business and our workers.
So why would we want workers to have "similar worker right as in the western world" when these benfits hurts american businesses and makes it impossible to compete with other countries?
Re:My experience (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually, yes. It's a GREAT way to help the US economy. See, the economy is strong when we EXPORT goods and services and IMPORT money. When we IMPORT goods and services and EXPORT money, the economy is harmed.
So it's wise to make it difficult to import goods (via tariffs) and services (via immigration restrictions).
Today India, tomorrow somewhere else... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
you do realise that everyone who works in the US (regardless of where they LIVE) pays taxes in the US.
A more accurate statement is that aliens give up their ability to vote or get government support for inelegibility for the draft, which is pretty much dismantled anyway. Many aliens are leaving significantly better social security nets behind when they come "visit".
So I think the US comes out WAY ahead on all aliens working inside its borders. Especially as the aliens are less likely to have children and more likely to be highly skilled, so they are pretty much always a net gain for the economy, both locally and nationally.
I would suggest you revisit some of those conceptions and think about how free markets tend to perform compared to protectionist markets, but I'm sure you were just being smarmy to make a point. Which I missed.
Re:Sovereign country (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Just usual (Score:2, Insightful)
I haven't read the article due to a severe Slashdotting, but it sounds like a troll, I don't imagine anyone would seriously emmigrate to India from the US unless that happens to be their family's background. You could quit programming and become a part time janitor and still have a better standard of living in North America. (no offence to Indians intended)
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What's this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems like they have reasonable migration policies.Moreover no restriction on Natural/Naturalised citizens in politics either. An former Italian [encyclopedia.com] is the opposition leader
Re:What's this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now is a real bad time to be a programmer... especially a newly graduated one. Of course pointy-haired bosses don't see the value of in-house development. If they can save money now, they look good. It doesn't matter that the software they get doesn't work right and they have to spend more money to fix it, they saved the company money.
There are also security concerns... but I won't go there.
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Let me explain something. (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh yay... 1000 lines of code an hour for pennies on the dollar. Big friggin deal.
I have seen this type of practice implemented at other companies before. The task get shipped over to Inda, Isreal, or wherever. Simple tasks mind you. Such as implement the error handling on the submission from this HTML form using Java. We send full specs as to what is allowed for the submission.
The code we get back is 10 times longer than needed, won't compile, and when fixed to compile is not even logically correct against the spec. Now it has to be fixed to accept the correct submission parameters. Mind you someone just spent more time debugging and fixing the code to get it to work than it would have taken to write the thing from scratch. On average, we threw out 90% of the code that we sent back to us and wound up writing it ourselves.
Just where are the savings? The business execs didn't see a problem with it, all they saw was they has twice the workforce for half the money. Too bad that section of the workforce created more work for everyone else.
Note: I am not trying to bust on any programmers from India orIsreal (I have known a few that were amazing code jockeys).
Re:Are there any mods older than about 14 here? (Score:2, Insightful)
So true. That's why you see so many quotes from the Simpsons, Futurama, Monty Python, etc. Most moderators don't recognize humor unless it comes from a source "officially" known to be funny. Making up an original joke will just get you modded down.
Letting twelve year old semi-literate shut-ins moderate posts of people three times their age is just not such a hot idea.
Re:Just usual (Score:2, Insightful)
So americans aren't allowed to compete with indians in india, but indians can compete with americans in america.
No other country i know of would allow such a thing to happen. You should consider why such a thing simply does not happen in Europe, where they are more protective of their citizens livelihood.
Check out the republican party's politics, they even resourced their fundraising to india!
Those damn capitalists. Let's just hope democrats will win in 2004.
Most of you guys are completely missing the point (Score:3, Insightful)
Who cares about the last part of the clip, everyone knows that it's a pain in the ass to get a job in another country, unless your an executive or you live in the EU. (My personal experience alone with this is endless.)
The point is the first part. And I don't want to collectively diss the /. population, but if you guys would read BusinessWeek, The Economist, etc., in addition to all your damn computer magazines, then you'd be enlightened already about how the H1 visa problem is growing so fast in the States.
There are countless stories at countless firms about people who've been forced to train their outsourced replacements. It is a really big problem in this country.
I really don't give a f*ck if you want to outsource a job to India. But all that bullsh*t with Tata is a gross exploitation of a labor-law loophole. Generally, the law states that you can't lay someone off and replace that exact position within "X" amount of time (it varies by State, I believe, here in Illinois it's 1 year). So companies get around it by creating whole new departments and positions for companies like Tata to come in and rape your office space, replacing you with an H1-er.
Start reading other magazines, and you guys might actually be motivated to care about this instead of giving supposedly righteous comments about how obvious it is that it's difficult to obtain work visas in other countries.
Focus on the important stuff. Like the BEGINNING of the clip.
"All techies should be forced to take at least 12 credits of business in college."
-SD
How do you afford your right wing lifestyle? (Score:5, Insightful)
The philosophy of market fundamentalism--the mantra of Fox, Wired, Rush, Gilder, Friedman and every zealous conservative and libertarian pundit--is doing an excellent job of encouraging business to turn its back on US employees. We'll see much, much more job flight in the short term until the brakes are applied to this savage anti-social approach.
Plainly this is what happens when you shatter the social contract and replace it with an ideology of dog-eat-dog. When times are good, it's nice to be able to bark, "Hands off my bone!" Not so nice, is it, when times are bad... Then, living under dog ideology isn't all it's cracked up to be, and you may come to see that millions and millions of your fellow Americans have been given the same raw deal.
For America, reeling under the destructiveness of this philosophy, a reordering of priorities is necessary. Increasing shareholder wealth may be the highest goal of a company; but it should never be the highest goal of a nation.
Above all, as you see jobs go to India, or elsewhere, and worry that it might be yours next, remember whose advice and guidance led you to this low hour. Remember also who made historically high profits from your labor in the 1990s, but now pleads the inability to continue your employment. And ask yourself if you can afford to subscribe to the politics of plutocrats who don't care if you and your family sink or swim.
Why the hell should the Indians care? (Score:3, Insightful)
Lets return the favor (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
I get the feeling that when you say "Americans" you mean "Americans I'm comfortable with," which means "people who don't speak with accents and who have a similar skin color-" because if not I fail entirely to see the reason behind your statement. Our country is composed of immigrants and descendents of immigrants- hell, even the Native Americans are immigrants, if you trace it back far enough. You, yourself are the descendent of immigrants. So why spread FUD about people with roots analogous to your own?
I just noticed the time/date stamp (I'm usually oblivious to dates), and it occurred to me that this is a very topical discussion to have today. Many of the people who died in the World Trade Center two years ago today were immigrants to the United States or here under work visas. Many of the firefighters and policemen who died were immigrants or the sons and daughters of immigrants. The immigrants "took American jobs"- and yet many became citizens or were in the process of becoming citizens, thus becoming Americans themselves. The point I'm making is that immigration- even in massive waves- has always been and will always be an important facet of the economic and cultural life of the United States, as has anti-immigrant bigotry, intolerance, and xenophobia. I invite you to reflect on this.
That's business-friendly vs. citizen-friendly (Score:4, Insightful)
Any government that is more concerned about corporation's well-being than about their citizen's well-being will allow companies to hire non-citizens to their heart's content.
I think that's pretty cut and dried. I am certain someone will correct me shortly.
Outsrc to corps that discriminate agnst Americans (Score:1, Insightful)
I am not prejudiced, but I have seen this happen with Indians in the Silicon Valley as well. Once they become hiring managers, they hire only other Indians. And the quality of work is really second rate. Americans tend to hire on merit. Indians, as I have witnessed, on blood (and caste). IMHO, of course.
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Globalism, like all other types of trade, increases wealth. Companies that charge less for goods gain business, companies that are less efficient lose business (and eventually go on to do something they are relatively better at). Everyone gains when they get more for their money when competition drives prices down.
Oddly, everyone focuses on the loss of jobs in uncompetitive industries and ignores the benefits of cheaper, better-quality goods. It is interesting that everyone focuses on the half of the trade equation that hurts rich company owners (loss of business), and ignores the benefits that increased competition brings to everyone else; I wonder why?
If buying goods manufactured outside of my country is bad, when is it good to trade? Should I only purchase goods manufactured in my home Province? Within my home city? Within my family? I guess I can conclude that the best thing for me to do is to grow my own food and manufacture everything I use, then all the benefits of job creation will go to me alone. I don't think you would agree that everyone would be richer if they never traded with anyone, so where do you stop? We accept that competition and specialization within a country is a good thing; why stop at the border?
Immigration (Score:5, Insightful)
The number of 'native' people here is confined to mostly people who have property right to an 'indian' reservation. The rest of us are either from somewhere else or of people decended from somewhere else within the last 200 years. There are very few people who can claim their only lineage from the original east coast Pre-US colonies. Immigrants have brought business ideas, culture, and intelligence. A vast array of our scientists that have developed military materiel are immigrants. We tolerate them, right?
Even in our economic downturn, we still have a rather small unemployment rate. Our economy has always been cyclical, and now is no different than any other time, other than the industries most strongly affected. On an upswing companies hire as many people as they can, if they have a need for them, and they trim back when they have spent in excess of what their workforce can deliver, based on economic times. This is normal. It sucks, but as long as we allow the severe swings that we see, it'll remain this way.
When someone lives here, (s)he buys goods and services locally. This is money that isn't leaked out to foreign companies. Even the immigrant that sends money home for family ends up spending a lot here, since the cost of living is so high. I'd want to see raw figures collected by someone without a bias one way or the other before I would revise that thought.
Not all immigrants remain, but many do. Many find a much better life here than they have in other parts of the world. They see the salaries of their peers, and ultimately want that salary, or more of that lifestyle. They get addicted to pay-per-view and pizza delivery and cheap transportation. They become part of 'us'. I won't say that they all do, for many who come from countries as economically comparable per capita as the U.S. don't assimilate, but they have no reason to, either. Those from poorer countries become Americans. Their original culture doesn't disappear, but it all gets thrown in.
It's not nearly as clear of an issue as people make it out to be.
Re:Duh... (Score:1, Insightful)
Loser.
As if the world owes you a living.
Re:Duh... (Score:4, Insightful)
Reading this article has got me thinking, though.
One of the other characterizations of the industrial revolution was cheap labor- the massive influx of immigrants into the U.S., who proceeded to work for dirt and drive "Americans" out of jobs. If you recall, it only made everybody's - except the wealthy, of course - living conditions worse. This is not a good thing. Being only a mere computer scientist, I hesitate to speculate on what far-reaching sociological effects this will have, but at the very least, in the near future, this is not a good thing.
Last time this happened, we unionized, but I don't think that will work this time. I wish I had a solution (since in three years when I graduate I probably won't have a job), but I can't see one.
And, for the record, I wasted three mod points to post this.
Re:Duh... (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe we have too much pride. Look at the number of immigrants willing to do landscaping, and work on the back of garbage trucks. Most American's are "above" that kind of work, and demand too much money to do it. Maybe call centers and software development are similar to that. Maybe I'm just rattling on now...
With current trends, I don't see US citizens fairing well in the future. We're already the first generation in history to be worse off than our parents were. Hell, I still make more than $80k/yr (after several pay cuts recently) but my family wouldn't get by the way we do if my wife didn't work too.
I think I need some more caffeine....
devil's advocate: Its a free market baby! (Score:3, Insightful)
In this age's global economy, the reality is that the US economic model is growing beyond the US's borders. Multi-national corportations are shopping around for the best deal. Particularly when the US economy is struggling, many of these companies will define 'best' deal as the cheapest. Other posters have pointed out that you get what you pay for. Maybe eventually the companies that outsource will realize that their savings on paper are costing them more than they realize.
In the meantime, technical folks that lived large during the boom times have to realize that people offshore have also realized there's money to be made in technology. Their price is lower, so the jobs go offshore. Those of us here in the US have to either lower our prices or convince employers that we provide more value than the cheaper offshore workers.
In other news, blue-collar workers have been arguing for years that we need to close our borders to foreign products, or tarrif the hell out of them. Now, suddenly, white collar jobs are being lost as well & people are shouting "Close the borders!" "Get rid of the H1-B's!" "Save MY job!"
Sorry, dude. Thats the way it works. Change careers. Develop new skills. Start your own business that hires only 3+ generation Americans. But if you choose to drive a foreign car, or watch an off-shore made television, or insert example here of products built outside the US that were/are more expensive when built here, you're living a double-standard. It can't work both ways. Pick your economic system: protectionism or a free market.
Re:Sovereign country (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll just call you ill-informed.
Let's take a look at the economic performance of places where immigration happens, and where it doesn't. percent by state [migrationinformation.org]
Now, which state do you think has a better economy, New York or West Virginia? California or Mississipi? Obviously, the immigrants are going to where the economy is good, so if Mississippi's economy picks up, then they are likely to see more immigrants. However, if having a large number of immigrants hurts our economy, then I'd say that NY and California should have gone downhill and Mississippi, Alabama and West Virginia should have become the economic powerhouses of the nation long ago. I also think it's interesting that the poorest states in the union are also the ones which have some of the strongest anti-immigrant sentiment, despite having hardly any immigrants there anyways. As if an Indian moving to San Jose is stealing a job from a guy in Mobile.
It is natural for jobs to go to the person who can do the job who asks the least pay for it. People bitch about it when they are trying to get a job, but no one bitches about it when they hire someone to wash their car. We have four choices: A) let people come to America and work, B) let the jobs go to places where people work cheaper, C) work for cheaper than the other people, or D) wait for our economy to go so far into the crapper that no one would ever come here to work.
Ok, you pick.
Personally, I'd pick A. Of course, it would be better if we'd let them become citizens, because then they'd be Americans. But as long as we have people like you, who insist that only Native Born Americans = Americans, we insist that only a few are allowed to become citizens, not matter how many want to.
Re:Immigration (Score:4, Insightful)
I think the important distinction that must be drawn is the fundamental difference between H1B type workers and immigrants. In my opinion, an immigrant is someone actively pursuing citizenship and should be considered an "American". As the descendant of Scots, Irish, and French Canadians I've heard the stories of persecution and discrimination my great grandparents underwent during the Great Depression because they were "stealing" jobs from "real" Americans.
In my opinion, the hiring policy, this man ran in to is just plain wrong regardless of legality. Does this mean that the US should adopt a similar policy? I don't think so, I believe the outcome would not impart a favorable change on the state of the economy. If my company lost all its H1B's we would be in serious trouble. I'm pretty confident we could not fill the vacant jobs with "real" americans, even in today's job market. Of course, I could be wrong.
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
This argument would fall under the rubrick of tissue of lies if were even that substantial.
My great grandfather moved halfway around the world to sell fruit off of a wagon in Sioux City, Iowa. Don't give me this sob story about moving your entire family.
Re:Duh... (Score:3, Insightful)
the job is temporary
he shouldnt have moved his family
if he did
thats his mistake
hes not here to become a citizen
just here to make some cash
Re:Duh... (Score:3, Insightful)
That was a little simplistic, but it's the source of the problem. How many cars does your family have? How much are you paying on them each month? Is your house bigger than you really need? How many TVs do you own? How many activities are your children enrolled in? How many times a week does your family eat out instead of just cooking at home?
Note that all of these questions are rhetorical, and the answers are none of my business. Just something to think about. Foreign workers can get by on less because they spend less.
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
The US has enjoyed the benefits of globalization for decades now. Look at all the goods at your disposal, right now. Look at the computer, the mouse, the car, the food. Realize how much of it is affordable to you because they exported the labor, to a place that could make your underwear with labor that cost $1 a day.
Now, imagine all the prices of all those goods increasing as every individual on the production and supply chain, all the way back to the origin, gets paid in US-standard wages that allows each and every worker to buy a US-sized house on a US-sized tract of land for a small nuclear family, with 2 recent-make cars for the family, health care, home entertainment systems, etc. Are you willing to pay $20 for a pair of socks to make that happen? $50,000 for an entry-level car?
I'm all for wage convergance, labor and environmental riders on trade agreements - although that will also end up making your goods more expensive. But to think that the US has suffered under globalism is completley misguided.
Also, the H1B visas were granted because of something that most IT professionals, particularly the libertarianish ones, just don't understand: class conflict. IT was very expensive blue-collar labor. The US economy is managerial capitalism, and it is in their class interests to push down the cost of that labor.
Most IT types mistook their good wages for a sign of inclusion in the "wealth-generating," upper-classes. In fact, it was an artifact of a labor scarcity that has been engineered away. Now, the IT rabble has to take its place in front of the punch-clock like all the other line-workers.
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
True free trade allows:
The European Union has all three. It is a true "free trade" system.
Most others, including NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement), do not allow free movement of labor. NAFTA permits "brain drain" labor movement to occur fairly easily ("temporary" work visas are easy to obtain for skilled/educated workers), but unskilled labor cannot cross borders.
NAFTA and its ilk are not free trade agreements. They are better described as trans-national outsourcing agreements.
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:3, Insightful)
Second of all, you're wrong that only the U.S. has a large migrant worker population. France, Germany, England, even Ireland since their economy picked up, all have them.
The key here isn't "U.S. vs. the World", it's Wealthy vs. Non-wealthy nations. In which case it only makes sense for things to be one sided. India wouldn't tolerate a flood of "non-immigrant labor" because their economy couldn't support it. On top of that, most Americans wouldn't be interested in doing more work for lower pay 10,000 miles away from their loved ones.
Not that it never happens. A friend of mine recently quit a comfortable job at Deutsche Bank to work for a non-profit micro-finance company in Nigeria. She didn't do it for the money, she did it because she wants to help people.
Like others have pointed out, foreigners are typically only hired for skilled labor if the employer is unable to find someone with the necessary skillset in the local population. If India isn't hiring non-Indians for computer programming work, it's because they have more programmers than they have jobs. If you really want to work in India (which i doubt), find out what they need.
H1-B Visa program is very bad (Score:2, Insightful)
Please read "Oppose H-1Bs but Support Outsourcing [slashdot.org]".
Re:Sovereign country (Score:4, Insightful)
Correlation does not imply causality.
Causality under certain conditions does not necessarily lead to the same results in all conditions.
Your logic is sorely flawed.
Re:Duh... (Score:1, Insightful)
and get their Green Cards.
Contrast this to sending the H1B back to India where he sets up an outsourcing shop, hires 10 Indians, and then deletes 10 jobs in the US (not only that, but he is no longer paying taxes and buying goods and services in the US).
It would be better if more like 95% of H1Bs remained in the US; these are people with skills that will simply take their job (and many other jobs) overseas with them if they are forced to leave (most would willingly stay in the US if granted green cards).
dude needs to look harder for a job... (Score:2, Insightful)
San Francisco...When he is lucky he gets a temporary job answering phones or testing video games, nothing that ever pays more than $10 an hour
c'mon, if this is the case, he's just slacking. i'm up in silicon valley every month or so, and i constantly see signs at fast food joints looking to hire at more than $10/hr.
Re:Especially Americans who whorked for SCO (Score:3, Insightful)
That sounds like a better opportunity than living in America, and working two jobs to keep up my $2000/mo house payments. . .
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Blame your own government. (Score:3, Insightful)
This is simply because the US doesn't have reciprocal work visa arrangements with anyone. As a British citizen, I can get work visas in many countries pretty easily, and others like me from those countries can do the same in the UK. This is in addition to the complete free movement of labour within the EU. So, while I can get an Australian work visa from the travel agents, I don't have a hope of getting a US one according to their rules.
Personally, I like The Economist's idea: free movement of labour between all countries of comparable wealth.
Re:Immigration - NOT the issue (Score:2, Insightful)
The US needs to do something about this. I don't mind jobs moving to other countries, I also don't mind people from other countries coming here. I do mind countries taking advantage of our near-open borders, while not extending the same openess to us.
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
The only way this will stop is if people make a conscious effort to pay more for "made in USA" products (ain't gonna happen in the current economy), or by regulation (ain't gonna happen since Bush is a puppet for big corporations).
Re:Duh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Excuse me sir, your words seem to have accidentally fallen into my mouth. Nobody said they don't want Indians around. Ever. In the entire thread so far, not even an AC. We're sick of having unqualified and/or unneeded immigrants coming under the pretense that we need more middle-class labor. Read the article.
Keep it in the US (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Time zone: I was on the East Coast (EST/EDT). I beleive that India was about 12 hours away from us, give or take. This meant that basically anything you asked them to do took at least 1 full working day, since by the time I got into work, they were in bed. You can just imagine the problems this caused when deadlines or other time-critical matters were involved.
2. Language: Again, without making any broad generalizations... Their English sucked. It was nearly impossible to communicate with them on the phone and their written English was less than acceptible. Also, based on serveral very frustrating experiences with the whole group, I concluded that their comprehention of written English was equally poor. We finally found a guy there who could understand English well enough to explain things to the rest of the group, but even then, my confidence level was quite low.
3. Work Ethic/Product: Both the group in question and several other Indians I've worked with since then have had some similar issues w/r/t how they worked and what they produced. Again, not to generalize... If you give them very clear, step-by-step instructions to perform a discrete task, they generally will perform the task quite thoroughly. However, if the procedure requires any deviation from the norm or any creativity or synthesis, you're better off doing it yourself, because they'll never figure it out.
We also had problems getting them to listen to anyone other than management -- they basically ignored team lead's, including myself.
In their defense, I understand that the education system in India teaches them to work this way; it has a large focus on rote memorization and obeyance of authority. That's great, and it seems to work for them. However, that's not how we work in the US, and folks who have gone to US (or European or Chinese) schools and worked with others of the similar ilk will get very frustrated trying to mesh with thinking processes that are polar opposites of their own. Furthermore, I find this thinking process thoroughly unproductive and pretty much useless in an Engineer.
Now, I'm just waiting for someone to write back flaming me for being some kind of racist, so let me state once more that I am relating my personal experiences with certain Indians. I went to grad school with several amazingly talented Indians whom I would choose to work with in a heartbeat. I'm not trying to reinforce any sterotypes or discriminatory policies.
What I am trying to say is caveat emptor. If a thing seems too good to be true, it probably is. Sure, you can get engineering labor abroad for 10 cents on the dollar. But in many cases, you get what you pay for.
And finally, there are countless qualified engineers in AMERICA who need jobs. If a foreign individual or group has skills you can't find here, then fine, bring them here. But in the long run, you hurting yourself, your company, and your fellow Americans by trying to save a buck abroad. It ain't worth it.
Re:Italian could end up being India's Prime Minist (Score:1, Insightful)
This is only intended to the trolls calling India racist/backward/non-tolerant etc without doing the homework.
Instead lets all vie for stopping the greed among CEOs and demand proper compensation/benefits for WHOEVER does the work, WHEREVER.
While we rant about these, those ppl are in millions by making Americans jobless and exploiting the poor foreigners.
Do something about the problem now! (Score:2, Insightful)
Do not channel your energy into being angry. Do something about the problem. Please read "Oppose H-1Bs but Support Outsourcing [slashdot.org]".
Silicon Valley has 8% unemployment, but Intel says that it cannot find engineers to fill its ranks. Intel insists that the American government allow it to hire H-1B workers from India and China (which includes Taiwan and Hong Kong).
Fax a letter to your local Congressional representative and tell her that you want the immediate termination of the L-1 and H-1B programs. Do not wait for someone else to carry out your civic responsibility. Move your ass. Do the job.
Re:Duh... (Score:5, Insightful)
For one example, I think that most foreign physicists I work with have better written grammar than the average US physicist, as more often than not these folks write the best papers. And on the other hand, I knew another fellow student who had great trouble speaking and writing English (and programming languages for that matter) in spite of several years of learning and speaking in the US, but who was an absolutely brilliant mathematician and theoretical physicist.
So, a person's English-speaking skills are not a good measure of how well they communicate. And communication is just one dimension of intelligence, which itself is a massively multidimensional thing. IMHO intelligence is impossible to quantify in any meaningful way.
Re:It's not called stealing (Score:2, Insightful)