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PHP Programming Java

PHP Scales As Well As Java 627

Posted by michael
from the emperor-has-no-clothes dept.
mactari writes "Jack Herrington at the O'Reilly Network has had the audacity to claim that both PHP and J2EE architecture... are converging on the same design [regarding scalability]. Can it be that he's disproven the idea that 'Java scales and scripting languages don't' when he says, 'The idea that PHP does not scale is clearly false at the performance level'? Even if a little oversimplified (ignores horizontal scaling), it's an interesting comparison that takes a peek at the architecture beneath both hypes."
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PHP Scales As Well As Java

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  • of course it does... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by joeldg (518249) on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:04AM (#7240386) Homepage
    we use PHP here for huge web applications.. we have six servers pumping out one website and it connects to a redundant database server.

    The same system in java probably would not work, and if so would take up so many resources as to be no efficient.

    If you are interested in more examples of some somewhat crazy things you can do in PHP check here [intercosmos.net] to see examples of using it on the commandline for ncurses (which I wrote the primary tutorials on zend.com for) and for handling sysv shared memory.

    Cheers

  • by Faramir (61801) on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:09AM (#7240458) Homepage Journal
    Okay, talk about asking for a flaming! I'm a PHP developer whose done a bit of Java but knows nothing about J2EE. Can someone explain how this is relevant to me, as I start looking at larger applications with hundreds, perhaps thousands of users?
  • Yahoo! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by nocomment (239368) on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:09AM (#7240464) Homepage Journal
    Well seeing as Yahoo is switching [yahoo.com]over to php, from C no less! Plus if you want to, you could use slashdot as an example of scripted sites. Of course slashdot at random interval won't load for about 10 or 15 minutes (rarely longer).
  • Perl (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rmohr02 (208447) <mohr.42NO@SPAMosu.edu> on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:10AM (#7240468)
    Perl seems to scale as well--it runs a very busy site [slashdot.org] I frequent with few problems.
  • Re:Props to PHP (Score:3, Interesting)

    by yintercept (517362) on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:32AM (#7240725) Homepage Journal
    Programmers like other professionals need to establish a sense of professional elitism. PHP is a language that just about anyone can use, and when you have something that just about anyone can do, then you won't get the big bucks.

    Programmers, doctors, lawyers need to fortify their salaries with an impenetrable layer of jargon. Java has the jargon.

    The end result, PHP/MySQL is what people use when they want to get a job done, Java/XML is what you use if you want to build a career.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:36AM (#7240766)
    Sun is considering removing strict typing from Java as a language requirement, since it was one of the Top 10 things that developers suggested to Sun to make the language more useful.

    Strong typing is not necessary. Even Sun believes that. Sorry to disappoint you.
  • Session state (Score:3, Interesting)

    by JMZero (449047) on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:41AM (#7240828) Homepage
    Storing session state in a database only works when you have a small amount of session state to store

    I think developers need to commit to smaller session footprints on servers anyway. Our goal here is to have nothing but security information stored on the server - and I think that's very reasonable. Make everything else come on the request.

    We see a lot fewer bugs this way, and everything becomes easier to maintain. The database can handle the login information fine (thus far at least - our applications are all very data intensive to begin with), and being in the database means session info is easy to manage.

    To me, having another a session quasi-database replicated around the cluster seems like an ill-fated enterprise.

    Web development, though, is like that I guess. It's always difficult to picture what works for applications different than your own. The 100,000 lookers at site A call for a different setup than 10,000 workers at site B might need.
  • Re:Here's why... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by AstroDrabb (534369) on Friday October 17, 2003 @11:42AM (#7240837)
    VB is a very powerful language that many people use to build enterprise class applications
    Oh my gosh, my side is splitting from laughing so hard. You have no clue what enterprise class means. I am a developer for a fortune 500 company with 110,000+ employees. VB does not scale. VB does not even do true threads. It only supports apartment threading. VB does not support one ounce of object oriented programming. A class in VB is NOT a real class. It does not support polymorphism, inheritence, etc. Try to write an large enterprise class application with many developers in VB and then you will know what I am talking about. Once an applications gets to so many thousands of lines of code, OO techniques become invaluable. VB is procedural and just doesn't cut it. VB is for kiddies or as Billy boy would say, "hobby" programmers. Can I create a class and inherit from it? No. Writting an application with a few thousand lines of code with maybe five developers does not make it enterprise class. The file handling is a joke. The syntax is joke. VB came in handy for a quick way to plan out a GUI. Plain and simple. Please tell us what "Enterprise" grade applications you have made with VB? Hell, name one "enterprise" grade application available in VB? Is SQL Server written in VB? Is Oracle?
    and don't even think about reminding people here at Slashdot that Perl has been dead for a few years.
    Are you even a developer? Comments like this make me doubt it. Look at the URL when you are in /. See that nice .pl on the end? That is perl. It is pretty funny that /. running perl can handle the load that many other sites out there just crock on, hence the term ./ing. There are still tons of perl sites out there. Perl is also indespensible when it comes to text processing or admin related tasks. Just because you don't have the ability to learn any language other then VB, doesn't me the rest of the world can't.
    But show off something better and easier? Sacrilege.
    Thats part of the problem right there. If you dumb down a language too much such as VB, you loose all the power features that comes with a language such as C, C++. It also contributes to all the headaches in the world of IT when you have tons of piss poor code written by sup-par "programmers" that cannont grasp anything harder then VB. Trusting a VB-only developer to write an Enterprise class application is like having the "tire change boy" be your machanic. It is a stupid choice to make.
  • by bloo9298 (258454) on Friday October 17, 2003 @12:08PM (#7241135)
    Sun is considering removing strict typing from Java as a language requirement, since it was one of the Top 10 things that developers suggested to Sun to make the language more useful. Strong typing is not necessary. Even Sun believes that. Sorry to disappoint you.

    This seems extremely unlikely. Do you have any evidence to support your claim?

  • Re:Props to PHP (Score:2, Interesting)

    by gray_eminence (666562) * on Friday October 17, 2003 @12:15PM (#7241189) Homepage
    I would say that the zeal and disgust is partially a marketing tactic. It's partially a way to differentiate between someone who has dabbled with and actually lives the zen of the job.

    You might see a similar zeal within print-graphic designers against kids and small-business with immature corporate identity. We all know traditional printers have been hurt by the availability of cheap grapic ap's and ink-jets. We all poo-poo a bad web design when it has the hallmarks of someone who doesn't know what they are doing. When anyone and their dog can build an HTML page, you can't be indifferent about bad design when you are an experienced developer. Clients will learn there is no benefit to paying you, and they will realize that useless websites have to be the norm

    We have to make those comments though, because otherwise most clients wouldn't know the difference between good work and bad work unless you point it out. And not every manager will immediately connect the dots (even with a presentation) of concepts like lowering cost by reducing bandwidth.

    So you have to train yourself to stand up for what you've committed yourself to. More importantly you have to SELL what you believe. If you treat your own skills with indifference, then others will consider your skills as such. They will also put more trust in the programmer who is not just convinced, but *knows beyond a shadow of a doubt* that rolling with a particular language is the right thing to do. What else does a non-programmer have to go on? (Besides, do you expect a programmer so say... "I only work with slow, awkward languages")
  • Re:Some facts (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 17, 2003 @12:20PM (#7241232)
    memcached was written originally for Perl. It was designed for LiveJournal.com, and that's written in Perl. It has a PHP API true, but to credit it to the PHP community is a falsehood.

There must be more to life than having everything. -- Maurice Sendak

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