GUI Designer For Eclipse

Flu writes "Finally, a free (as in speech and beer) and official GUI designer has been released for Eclipse! Just a few days before the Eclipse 3.0 M5 build was released, a complete plugin for creating GUI's was released as well, as one of the Eclipse tools projects. Check it all out on the official site for the Visual Editor Project. At last, the (probably) best free IDE for Java (and C) contains a GUI editor! Personally, I intend to put up an IBM logo to worship next to my desk, as a thank you for the Eclipse! :-)"

Required Comparison Question

[forsetti]

Well, how 'bout it -- Eclipse vs Netbeans? I'm looking to hear from people that have actually used both.

Re:Required Comparison Question

[!3ren]

I can't claim to be an incredibly experienced Java developer or anything, but the Eclipse gui seems to run a lot faster on my (woefully) slow box than Netbeans.

Re:Required Comparison Question

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first started out with Java, I was a Netbeans user. It was fine for a little while, but then it got to the point where I was fighting its interface more than I was actually coding. Along with that problem, it's also a system resource hog, which I'm guessing was due to all the stuff that it loaded on when it started up- for me, most of that stuff was unneeded since I basically was just using the core API's.

I then come across Eclipse- it was a dream. The interface was sleek and seemed like the IBM teams that worked on it breathed "Keep It Simple Stupid" throughout it's development. Plus, it also runs much faster and I can tell it what to load up and use on my system. However, it's best feature is the fact that it provides a very stable platform for other developers to create their own tools on. Check out this article on the subject over at ACM's Queue: Eclipse: A Platform Becomes an Open-Source Woodstock [acmqueue.com]

For me, the announcement of a decent GUI designer for it is like extra icing on the cake.

Re:Required Comparison Question

[pfafrich]

Netbean it's also a system resource hog Much as I like eclipse I have found it to gobble memory. On my system 128 Meg Ram, if I run eclipse and mozilla I'm basically out of ram and spend half my time listerning to the disk thrashing.

I guess this has more to do with java than eclipse.

Re:Required Comparison Question

[w42w42]

My experience is pretty close to !3ren's. I tried netbeans when I was looking for an IDE on Linux for Java, but then found Eclipse. The turnoff for eclipse for me initially was that file handling seemed non-intuitive. I think that was my turnoff, I'm not sure, because it's no longer an issue.

I've got a celeron 800 w/ 392mb, and Eclipse runs pretty nicely on this. Netbeans did not.....

The next item, plugins. No idea at all on the community involvement for Netbeans, but for eclipse, it seems to be pretty good. There are plugins for almost everything imaginable - use it for PHP, w/ CVS, control your app servers, etc.....

Re:Required Comparison Question

[axxackall]

Used both, disappointed in both, returned to Xemacs/JDE.

If Java is your own language you can speak - Eclipse is ok (even slightly better than Netbeans b/c no swing in it). But if your projects combine several languages (Python, Perl, Tcl, C, C++, SQL, XML, XSL), and you have to debug in external interactive shells (Python, Bash, XSLT, SQL), and you have to document not only classes (aka javadoc), but also a work of future end-users (Tex-based user guides), then certainly Eclipse is just another vi - it'

Re:Required Comparison Question

[primus_sucks]

(I've used NetBeans for 5 years and Eclipse for 1) Since switching to Eclipse I only use NetBeans when I need to design a GUI. I think both products are awesome, but I like the responsiveness of the Eclipse UI (SWT).

Re:Required Comparison Question

[whitelines]

Interesting because I've used both and IBM's flagship web dev product, the websphere IDE is built on eclipse. I hated websphere in comparison to netbeans, slow, slow and slower... I run netbeans with tomcat and a mysql server as well as bunch of apps on my 733 fine when I'm doing development.

I was using websphere on more powerful computers with more RAM and it still ran like molasses.

Netbeans is very powerful and as long as you understand how the file system works, great for working with big projects.

Re:Required Comparison Question

[ccp]

Well, how 'bout it -- Eclipse vs Netbeans?

Deathmatch!

Cheers,

Re:Required Comparison Question

[bkocik]

I've used both, extensively. I started with Netbeans, and it's usable, but just barely. It tends to bring my system to a crawl after more than an hour or two of use. Everyone complains about the interface, and everyone is right; it's just...bad.

One day I discovered Eclipse. I was ecstatic. It is easily the most powerful IDE I've ever used (others being CodeWarrior, various versions of JBuilder, IDEA, Visual Studio, IBM Visual Age, KDevelop, and a few others I can't recall). It's interface is also a little

Cool

[dtfinch]

Now if only my pc was fast enough to run the Eclipse IDE at a usable speed. Plus somehow, certain Java Swing components on 1.4.x are able to crash my up to date ATI Radeon 7500 drivers on Window XP. Nothing else does.

I have Eclipse installed, and this all shows much promise, but is may be a while before it's of great use to me. It's great to see that they're working on a GUI editor. Swing has a steeper than necessary learning curve.

Re:Cool

[martinde]

> It's great to see that they're working on a GUI editor. Swing has a steeper than necessary learning curve.

Does the Swing GUI builder support Swing, SWT, or both? Given that Eclipse doesn't use Swing (or at least it didn't used to) I'd be a bit surprised if the GUI builder only supported Swing.

Re:Cool

[dtfinch]

The page says it supports both. I actually haven't messed with SWT yet, having known very little about it before today.

ATI and Swing problems

[Coventry]

The bug you describe with 1.4.x and swing components is a known problem with the 1.4.1 series - though it seems to be fixed for me in the latest 1.4.2_02 release, and has been fixed since the 1.4.2 initial release.

The workaround is to disable direct3d and directdraw when using swing - they apparently do some flaky calls to directX libraries in order to speed up the gui drawing, and the ati drivers _hate_ it.

I'd refer you to the bug report on sun's site, but it requires registration, so I'll just cut-n-pas

CDE???!!!

[Compuser]

Why is it built on top of that?

Re:CDE???!!!

[chaotica1974]

CDE? You may have been misinformed. Eclipse supports many platforms. The windows platform is built directly ontop of the Win32 API, no MFC or extra crap as AWT is. The Linux platforms include a GTK version. Not sure about the Mac version

Re:CDE???!!!

[magnum3065]

Don't know if this was meant to be a joke, but I had to do a double take myself when I saw that mentioned on the page. The CDE mentioned is not the "Common Desktop Environment" many of us may think of, in this case it stands for "Common Data Editor." [eclipse.org]

License

[JohnFluxx]

Hi,
Could someone who understands the license of eclipse tell me what exactly the problem is in getting eclipse SWT to use QT?

Re:License

[Anonymous Coward]

what exactly the problem is in getting eclipse SWT to use QT

I'd bet the problem is with the QT licence - which essentially says that you can't build commercial applications with it without paying a licence fee that's amazingly expensive. Don't forget that Eclipse is being developed by IBM, under a "CPL" licence which may not be 100% GPL compatible - using QT would infect their codebase.

Last I checked, prices are:

QT: $3000 per seat per platform (for just the QT library alone).
Microsoft Visual C++ 2003 .N

Re:License

[Carl]

QT is distributed under the GPL and SWT under the CPL. Both GPL and CPL are copyleft licenses so a combination of SWT and SWT (being a derived work of both) has to be distributed under terms compatible with both the CPL and GPL. Unfortunately there are some conflicting terms (in particular the patent litigation termination clause) so such a work cannot be distributed :{

There has been talk to get the CPL GPL compatible. Hopefully IBM/Eclipse listens since lots of people would love to combine Eclipse technology with existing GPL code.

Re:License

[magnum3065]

Well, there may be licencing issues around Eclipse that would be nice to work out, but I'm not sure they would prevent a QT implementation of SWT. Reimplementing the SWT API should not constitute a derivative work of SWT, provided the developers are careful to just copy the API, not anything underneath it (don't want more suspicion like the JBoss/Geronimo stuff). Just like Mono and DotGNU are perfectly capable of implementing the .NET classes without a license from Microsoft, someone should be able to imp

Re:License

[Earlybird]

To support a specific "native" windowing toolkit, you don't reimplement SWT. You just implement the lower layer, the driver. Motif, GTK+ and Win32 support are each implemented using JNI.

Re:License

[magnum3065]

I understand how the existing implementations are done. The issue here is what constitutes a derivative work. If you use the Java code which exists for SWT and only implement a QT driver for it you may be stuck in a situation where you are bound under the CPL from SWT and the GPL from QT, and there is no way you can satisfy the terms of both. The ideal situation would be to reconcile the licensing issues so that a QT driver could be developed. However, my point was that it would still be possible to cre

Re:License

[jmccay]

I know QT isn't free on Windows, and I doubt it is released under a GPL compatible license for windows. This would be a problem for eclipse's crossplatformness.

Re:License

[fender_rules]

Eclipse uses native graphic toolkit for each platform just as wxWindows does. So even if eclipse comes to support QT, it will continue to use native MFC toolkit on Windows platform. Personally, I'm using Gnome, but it would be a terrific contribution for KDE people once SWT/Eclipse supports Qt. I've heard that preliminary code for Qt binding is being developed somewhere inside IBM. So hope it will be available as soon as possible after they successfully resolve license issues.

Re:License

[Chris_Jefferson]

Why must all code become "GPL compatable"? I find this annoying, mainly because licence foo being "GPL compatable" means that foo code can be relicenced as GPLed code. Note that you can't take GPLed code and put it under licence foo (in fact, can you in any way change / strengthen the licence which GPLed code is under? I don't think so..)

I remember Microsoft claiming the GPL is a "virus", and thinking that it is rubbish. I'm beginning to think maybe it is... nowadays the only way for code to be acceptable

Re:License

[ccp]

Why must all code become "GPL compatable"?

Because little by little, GPL code will push non-GPL out of the mainstream.

And I think it's great.

Cheers,

Re:License

[Ianoo]

Just what's so wrong with GTK2 anyway? IBM are big Gnome sponsors and endorsers, so it's much more likely the SWT toolkit that Eclipse uses for its GUI will stay with GTK rather than switch to QT.

Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[Futurepower(R)]

From the parent post: "Personally, I intend to put up an IBM logo to worship next to my desk, as a thank you for the Eclipse! :-)"

The underlying point here is that supporting open source software is an extremely good way for a company to get positive publicity.

Ten dollars of support for open source is probably more powerful than $1000 of stupid TV ad campaigns in which stupid-looking people go around in stupid-looking "space" suits. (IBM needs a better advertising agency. I saw an interview on the Charlie Rose show of the woman who heads the agency IBM uses. She knows nothing about technical things, obviously doesn't care about technical things, and obviously believes that technically knowledgeable people are her social inferiors. She is disgustingly destructive toward her client, IBM. While they're considering this, IBM should fire its marketing manager for letting that happen. Could I do better? Yes, wake me up any day at four o'clock in the morning and I could do better before I was completely awake.)

At one time, IBM was hated as much as Microsoft is now, because of IBM's extremely adversarial business methods. There were many technically knowledgeable people who would not consider working for IBM. That seems to be changing now.

Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea? I don't know. However, it was an excellent idea.

Recently, a CEO asked me what I thought of Microsoft's .NET. I told him the biggest drawback was that using .NET means that you are a partner of Microsoft. (The second is that .NET programs are easily de-compiled; other people can easily examine your business logic if they have a copy of your program.)

People like me influence purchasing decisions of highly technical products. People like me say that it doesn't matter how much money Microsoft has, or how strong a virtual monopoly, Microsoft is on the way down. I remember Microsoft's adversarial behavior [slashdot.org]. I remember Novell's adversarial behavior, and I will never, never forget, even though I don't do business with Novell any longer.

The point is that supporting open source software impresses me and other technically knowledgeable people who 1) influence purchases, and 2) are the kind of people a technical company might want to hire.

So, two rules for running a technically knowledgeable company: 1) Find some way of making money that doesn't involve any instances of doing harm. 2) Build a positive attitude toward your company by supporting the work of the world: Open Source.

Re:Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[saden1]

Have you seen the new IBM Linux ad? It is way too cool to be just another ad. They have this young kid sitting on a chair in a white room and lots of important people come in and lecture. It is very inspiring.

Re:Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[Feztaa]

Read my Journal entry about it [slashdot.org].

[/plug] :)

Re:Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[saden1]

Great stuff... I guess I'll take a crack at the bit about the astronomer.

Just before the astronomer speaks the male voice says it is happening fast. The astronomer then points to the fact that every time we look at the stars we see light that has travel great distances at a very rapid speed. Linux is basically growing fast and has come a long way in short period of time.

Re:Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[Feztaa]

Open Source at the speed of light. Awesome :)

Re:Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[M1FCJ]

Recently, a CEO asked me what I thought of Microsoft's .NET. I told him the biggest drawback was that using .NET means that you are a partner of Microsoft. (The second is that .NET programs are easily de-compiled; other people can easily examine your business logic if they have a copy of your program.)

Although I agree with some of the things you wrote, it is obvious that you have never worked with Java... It is trivial to decompile java classes.

Both IBM and Sun want you to support them. Microsoft just doesn't care as long as the unwashed masses pay money for crappy apps.

Java is just as de-compilable as .NET.

[Futurepower(R)]

It's a mistake to think that because I didn't mention something I don't know it. Everything below is from an October 1 email message to the CEO I mentioned in the grandparent post:

.NET Decompilers [program-tr...mation.org]

Java Decompilers [program-tr...mation.org]

A friend wrote this:

"I regularly use decompilers for Java classes. The last library I decompiled is TupleSpace from IBM, a library for network communication (useful if doing clustering). The result was of a shocking clarity. :) Thank you IBM.

"That was especially easy because the code had few local variables (in the bytecode, local variables have an identifier that is a number) and no obfuscation."

Use a completely compiled language...

[Futurepower(R)]

The point is: Use a completely compiled language, instead of a pseudo-compiled language. There is a eason why huge companies push pseudo-compiled languages. It allows them to easily determine the business logic of other companies.

Re:Was supporting open source Lou Gerstner's idea?

[torpor]

Although I agree with some of the things you wrote, it is obvious that you have never worked with Java... It is trivial to decompile java classes.

Hoo boy, your logic is whack.

How is it obvious from what he said, that he's never used Java?

He's not talking about Java. He's talking about .NET. How do you know he doesn't *also* think this same thought about Java bytecode?

Oh wait, I get it, because he attacked .NET, you have to respond and sway the argument off into la-la land... I get it now.

Like I said

Version

[Anonymous Coward]

I had no luck running it on 3, but it runs great on 2.1

Re:Version

[krumms]

I don't think there's a stable build of Eclipse 3.0 yet ...

Anyone verify? I'm not familiar with their release terminology and don't care enough to find out :)

Language agnostic ...

[JonyEpsilon]

An important point that's not made explicit in the article is that the Visual Editor code is written to be language and GUI-framework agnostic.

The most wonderful thing about Eclipse is that it's so easy to extend; the addition of an extensible GUI editor should enable people to make a lot of nice tools (I've got an idea for it already :-).

Re:Language agnostic ... ???

[quinkin]

"...language and GUI-framework agnostic."

Does that mean it's not sure if it believes in the existence of languages or GUIs??

I guess it is better than the atheist Eclipse, it tries to convince you that language and GUI's can't possibly exist...

Q. (It's a joke ffs...)

Eclipse is hugely underrated

[Anonymous Coward]

IDEs tend not to get much play in the linux world, but I have found that Eclipse is as good as any I have used. I think this is a hugely underrated project that continues to have a huge impact.

Call me old fashioned, but...

[jmccay]

I think any "visual" type product should include screen shots, and I could not find anything similar to that on the linked page. Oh course, I might be missing something! Now back to my KDevelop update & upgrades...

Re:Call me old fashioned, but...

[dar]

Click on Documents then on one of the demos. Better than screenshots. The demo needs shockwave, though.

Re:Call me old fashioned, but...

[Canar]

Erm... there's no "Documents" link on that page.

Re:Call me old fashioned, but...

[jmccay]

That's fine if you have a computer eclipse can run on, but I don't have one. I should note for those that nit-pick here on /. that I am assuming the demo requires eclipse.
Screenshots should still be produced. Screenshots generate interest in an app before committing time to a demo or playing around with code. If a person likes the interface design, or atleast the screen shots, then they can commit the time to playing with the demo if they have a system it can run on.
I like to research projects an

You don't need eclipse to see demo

[fender_rules]

It's made with Macromedia Showckwave. I had no problem seeing it with my galeon browser on Linux Gnome desktop.

shock-flash is not cross-platform

[axxackall]

That's b/c you use x86 to run Linux. But many of us use PPC, Sparc and other non-x86 hardware to run Linux. They are out of luck to see any Shock-flash presentations. Don't blame those people - they are engineers, not fancy-shmancy marketing guys. And, by the way, we talk here about Java-based GUI. Java, remember? "Compile once - run everywhere". So, it is very silly to require Java-developers to stick to x86 platform, isn't it?

The web demos wrecked my marriage!

[SoupIsGood Food]

My biggest gripe is with the on-line web demos. After playing them, my girlfriend seems awfully interested in developing Java GUI's all of a sudden... she keeps playing them over and over again, with a dreamy look on her face. I shouldn't have to feel jealous of my IDE documentation...

(What is that voice-over guy, anyway? French? Spanish? Gypsie? He will single-handedly increase the ratio of male to female programmers to parity... not that they'd be interested in any of us after that.)

SoupIsGood Food

CPL license

[G3ckoG33k]

"In the Eclipse Platform, code access and use is controlled through the Common Public License"

Does anyone know what that is and how it differs from GPL?

Swing only?

[WWE-TicK]

Does this thing do Swing only? The Shockwave demos seems to indicate "yes".

Re:Swing only?

[krumms]

"The Eclipse Visual Editor project is a framework for creating GUI builders for Eclipse. It will include reference implementations of Swing/JFC and SWT GUI builders, but intends to be useful for creating GUI builders for other languages such as C/C++ and alternate widget sets, including those that are not supported under Java."

God forbid you ALRTFTFLOTA (At Least Read The First Two F*cking Lines of the Article) :P

Sadly not compatible with 3.0

[JKR]

Just tried it with 3.0M4; either VEP or its dependencies (GEF, EMF) aren't compatible with 3.0 and cause Eclipse to complain on startup that an invalid configuration will result.

Anyone know if there's going to be a 3.0 compatible version before 3.0 is actually released? There's another 7 milestones to go...

Jon