Microsoft Retires Windows 98 697
prostoalex writes "Complying with the court requirement related to Sun-Microsoft lawsuit over Java, Microsoft is retiring Windows 98, SQL Server 7, Office XP Developer Edition and some other products."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
Microsoft Retires Windows 98
Related Links Top of the: day, week, month.
An authority is a person who can tell you more about something than you really care to know.
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
So I guess it's no big deal. How does this harm Microsoft? Win98 is (was) a nice and stable gaming platform, but XP is very stable for gaming too. This counts as a win on the record, but it's still too little too late, imho. Sun should be awarded more rights over *current* and *future* Microsoft products, as a penalty. This could get interesting!
Upgrade (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
actually, it helps them. there are millions of administrative assistants and other corporate flunkies who have been happily using win 98 for years.
now that end of life is officially declared, the it deaprtmnt will probably force upgrades on all those people - and, of course, pay the necessary licensing fees to redmond.
microsoft: taking a bad ruling and turning it into a cash cow. again.
What I like about open source (Score:0, Insightful)
Truly Sad..... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ironically, Win98se has been Microsoft's most secure operating system for the last two years!
Kuh-Bum-Boomp!
Thank you, I'll be here all week.
Hollow victory (Score:5, Insightful)
Harsh assessment? (Score:2, Insightful)
That wasn't a very nice thing to say...maybe CNET has a beef with Sun? (the article is copyright CNET, not MSNBC)
Nice way of spinning it (Score:5, Insightful)
for better? or for worse? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. force people to upgrade
1.1 forces people to spend money on something they may not need
1.2 forces people to use that windows activation thing
2. security. no more patches for win98. this means that the small group of people with win98 are always going to be vulnerable to internet viruses. Upgrade you say? what if you can't afford it?
i'm sure there are tons more reasons. in fact i'd like to heard more below but these are the two things that worry me because i have very little money and family/friends still using 98.
Re:Upgrade (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nice way of spinning it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:0, Insightful)
this is our chance as well (Score:4, Insightful)
We need to take advantage of this, and convince people to get Linux and give it a try.
Tell them, if they like it and it does what you
need, then they won't have to upgrade.
But if it doesn't do what you need, they where going to have to upgrade anyways, right?
The Linux community does not get many opportunities like this. lets use it.
Headline misleading? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is misleading. As I understand the situation, they did NOT retire these packages because the court order told them too. They retired them because they did not want to get them into compliance and spend the resources on those packages. That is a big difference.
As with most MS settlements, they win even when they lose.
Passive Aggressive Legal/PR Strategy (Score:5, Insightful)
Compliance with court orders to remove the polluted versions of JVM does not [theregister.co.uk] require that those entire product lines be discontinued.
However, it is in Microsoft's business interest to push users of those products into upgrading to newer Microsoft products, for which they'll gain license revenue AND lower support costs associated with discontinuing support for those old products.
And, it is in MSFT's public relations interests to deflect blame for this action away from themselves and upon enemy Sun and its Java legal action.
Exactly the same red-herring strategy is being used to hold up class action settlements in California and to blame it on Lindows. [theregister.co.uk]
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unsupported but not gone! (Score:2, Insightful)
For those people, Win98SE, with Office or even Works, is just what they need. Fast enough, flexible enough, and if they manage to stay free of spyware, reliable enough.
Since most of these people never bother with updates and patches (I mean, who would with a 28.8 modem?) Microsoft's move will mean nothing to them.
End of life == End of vulnerability (Score:2, Insightful)
Most of the malware that 98 boxes would vulnerable to will be in the wild allready, going forward, I would expect the Windows code base to diverge further and further from what exists in 98, sorta natural.
That factor is part of it, but the bigger factor is if you write malware, why are you writing it for a niche OS, no longer in widespread use, no longer supported by the creator? As an intellectual exercise, sure, but intellectual exercising is different from malware authoriong.
I would expect the malware authors to write to current versions of Windows, which are far more prevalent, and thereby produce a far more noticeable effect.
Re:Friends, Netizens, Slashdotters (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, if you want DirectX9 (which originally wasn't supposed to be available for Win98) borrow a friends' copy of Flight Sim 2004, and run the DirextX9 install. Heck, if you search enough old game CDs, you'll find all sorts of updates and patches, including IE5.5 for Win95, and the Win95 USB backpatches.
Remember, game developers have licences that allow them to redistribute many of the "no-longer-supported" components, and they want compatability with the largest audience.
Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying (Score:4, Insightful)
We wouldn't bother upgrading because they will be moving to a new building with a new network and everything two years, but the fact of the matter is that you can't set up a Windows 98 network, work through all the pain and pathetic Microsoft crap and then leave it alone once it works because it never stays working for long.
Microsoft may be abandoning the product but the fact of the matter is that they couldn't be bothered to make it not suck in the first place and there will be millions of people saddled with support this sorry piece of crap whether MS supports it or not.
If we were talking about Windows 2000 it would be a different story because Win2k was and continues to be a viable and stable platform. In fact, with the NT line, there hasn't been compelling reasons to upgrade for about 5 years except for support of new hardware. That's the problem... when you actually do something right, you lose the upgrade track because people are actually satisfied.
That's why MS never cared about the DOS branch of their OS's. They knew they would sell bazillions of copies, but when called on the carpet for its crappy quality, they could just point to the NT branch.
Now that those branches have merged, I guess they have to start making all their OS's suck, or run the risk of having too many satisfied customers.
Others Should be able to legally support it then. (Score:5, Insightful)
Car part companies won a major legal win where they were allowed to make parts, against the wishes of the car manufacturers because there was an over-riding consumer interest.
At what point must the publishers of a de-facto standard publish its source code to allow others to help the userbase when they choose not to?
Re:for better? or for worse? (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you honestly think Joe Average who still has an old computer running Windows 95 or 98 has any idea what Linux is, let alone how to install it properly? An improperly configured Linux system can be as dangerous out of the box as a Windows system.
Re:But what else should one use for retail games? (Score:2, Insightful)
Does this mean that maybe we'll be able to get our hands on the source code so that we can implement the API's into WINE? Well, that idea probably has a snowball's chance in hell. But it might be an interesting try.
Re:So? (Score:2, Insightful)
the best part is: you can pile all this anecdotal evidence in one hand and shit in the other. Which one fills up first?
Re:Upgrade (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Upgrade (Score:5, Insightful)
now is the time for Linux companies... (Score:2, Insightful)
Lindows/Mandrake/Suse/Etc should be coming up with a special upgrade/conversion offer for Win98 users.
Use Microsoft's announcements against them, use the gap between XP and Longhorn, use their security vulnerabilities, use their pricing... use it all against them. Relentless pursuit. Relentless flock of hungry penguins.
the real objective. (Score:1, Insightful)
The real Microsoft objective is to blame another company for their own failure to support their customers. If they manage to blame Sun for that, they really will have scored a victory. You fall straight into the trap set by Microsoft's press release when you claim: [this means] people that still have their Packard Bells and Dells and the such with Windows 98 OEM copies are not going to be able to do Windows Updates and are basically going to have to upgrade to another PC if they want support.
You don't really question the reason this is happening, accept that something has really been lost and recomend a "solution" to a problem that never existed.
First, what support? For all the trouble "updating" caused, it never did well at actually protecting anyone from the latest greatest Microsoft spread disease. People like you are funny. When an Update breaks X compatibilty or a competitor's software, you shrug or blame the victim. When another program messes with windblows, you cry out loud. When a M$ worm does the same, you want someone to go to jail. It's funny because all three things are the same, but your reaction is different.
Microsoft has always shafted it's customers. Last time I checked a mojority of PeeeCeees still ran 98 or even 95. So M$ is going to dump "support" for the majority of their customers. When you consider the fact that their new OS won't even run on their hardware, you realize support for them is already dropped. When you also consider the fact that Windows 98 won't work on newer hardware with a clock speed that's too high, you might imagine that Microsoft never intended to "support" their software anyway. Signed, sealed and delivered as planned.
The real answer is right if front of you and requires no new purchase, hardware or software. 98/95 users should get themselves a Knoppix CD right away. It DOES work on older hardware, sometimes very nicely. On a single, free CD that can be obtained at the cost of a download, you will have a complete OS and all the goodies. You get your network and printer support, two or three browsers, two Microsoft Office substitutes, music playing and recording software, games, superior scripting launguages and the ability to mount and read your old files, without writing a single byte to your hard disk. It mostly works out of the box, with very little user intervention or effort. What does Microsoft have to offer against that? "Support"? Tell me another one.
Re:Still quite a few WIn 98 boxes out there (Score:1, Insightful)
He didn't seem to care and has no plans to upgrade until the hardware gives out and the harddrive fails or something like that.
The important thing is that Windows 98 will not recieve security fixes. As you point out, he's just had to reinstall everything after some malware screwed his system up. How often will that happen before he changes OS? How many people 's computers will he personally infect? How many people will recieve spam routed through his computer? Will he be annoyed when he loses his account with his ISP for spamming? Remember, a couple of people have already gone to trial because somebody used a trojan to download kiddy porn through their computer.
Bottom line: if you use an obsolete, guaranteed vulnerable OS, you are not only fucking stupid, but an inconsiderate, selfish idiot. Buy him WinME already.
Re:Truly Sad..... (Score:5, Insightful)
While we're at it - Win9x was much more recoverable than NT/XP/2K. If an XP box dies on boot due to a fux0r3d registry, you reinstall because the "recovery console" doesn't actually let you run any executables that might help you "recover".
Win9x has a corrupt registry? No problem! Boot to DOS off a floppy. Add a line to MSDOS.SYS that that says BootGUI=0. Poke around in C:\WINDOWS\SYSBCKUP and find the last 4-5 versions of the registry. Extract somewhere safe, use ATTRIB to deprotect the corrupt registry, and overwrite.
CHKDSK/SCANDISK not cooperating? No problem in 9x. Boot to DOS and image the drive with Ghost before CHKDSK can corrupt anything.
Some twit's stupid installer overwrites MSVCRT.DLL with a borked version that breaks half your other applications? On XP, you're screwed - can't overwrite it 'cuz it's always in use. On 9x, boot to DOS and overwrite it yourself with a known "good" version. The same techniques apply to trivially expunge MS Outleak Excess and other borkware.
In this context, 9x is less secure than XP per se, but when the "security" you're trying to break is keeping you from manipulating files on your own bloody hard drive, sometimes that's a Good Thing.
Somewhere between NT and Longhorn, single-user machines that ran Microsoft operating systems ceased to be Your Computers and became Bill's Computers. Because it was based on DOS, a 98SE box is always going to be Your Computer.
Snub Sun and reduce security responsibilities (Score:2, Insightful)
Will they excuse their slow and ineffectual responses to security holes by claiming it's a dead (soon to be almost completely unsupported) product, and that anywho still using it is responsible if they haven't upgraded? Bunch a weasels.
Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the (Score:2, Insightful)
Those entreprenuers had to reverse engineer the parts and come up with compatible/comparible after-market solutions. In software, this reverse engineering has been deemed illegal by the DCMA.
The ruling in the Lexmark case claimed that 'Static Control' who reverse engineered a chip Lexmark added to their toner was not illegal because the toner/chip was readily available to 'Static Control'. I'm not so sure that if this was about software it would work the same way. And who wants to battle the lawyers at MS on this one? The settlement that Sun reached was in 2001 and MS is just now complying?
Re:No, it does not include Win98 SE (Score:3, Insightful)
Office XP Developer
Visio 2000
BackOffice Server 2000
Office 2000 Developer
Office 2000 Tools
Office 2000 Multilingual
Office 2000 Premium SR-1
Office 2000 Service Pack 2
Outlook 2000
Project 2000
Are they saying the JVM is in all these products ?
Most likely it is they want to force people to upgrade to the latest products.
I wont even contemplate how SQL server impinges on JVM
I guess I am in the cynical camp and see this as a marketting ploy to force people to upgrade and endure licensing 6.0
Re:Won't this make Win98 abandonware? (Score:2, Insightful)
Unfortunately the term "abandonware" has no legal meaning; it will still be illegal to distribute unauthorised copies of the program.
developers developers developers (Score:1, Insightful)
their lips moved (Score:4, Insightful)
Right, they had no intentions of improving or modifying W98SE. In fact, new sales must be so low it was time to shoot it anyway. So nice of them to blame Sun for what they obviously indended from the start. [slashdot.org] It's so much better than saying that 98 simply sucked, like they said about 95 and 3.1 and you get the picture. Oh wait, they did say that 98 sucks.
As with most MS settlements, they win even when they lose.
As with most Microsoft statements, it was a lie even when partially factual.
Smart man. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Others Should be able to legally support it the (Score:4, Insightful)
You actually own the car.
You don't own Win98. It's licensed to you by M$.
As the owner of my car, it's my choice what parts I want to be in it (within reason of course).
As the owner of Win98, it's their choice whether they want to offer support.
Go FreeBSD.
Re:Upgrade (Score:2, Insightful)
those are scholars, but scholars are not expected to touch, even less to modify Aramic or Babylonian documents, they are too valuable
therefore Microsoft kernel is much more valuable than Linux kernel...
what kind of document do you modify ? uncomplete or erroneous ones
well, Microsoft protects some kind of artefact (some may say the one ring
this may explain why you have to be explicitly authorised by the "librarian" Microsoft in order to touch the saint relic of their Kernel.
Re:Fact: Windows 98 is dying (Score:5, Insightful)
As a matter of cost, having computer upgrades tied to building upgrades for an orgnization which Im sure has finite amounts of money is a Bad Thing. Either get your new hardware and licenses now, or after the new building: spread the costs around. Not for 30 years has physcially moving computers been a major cost concern. Computers are resonably portable. New computers and new buildings are sepearate issues.
Re:So? (Score:5, Insightful)
98SE is, of course, far from perfect, but I, for one, still use it (don't worry, though -- I dual boot with Red Hat). When my mother-in-law got a new computer with XP on it, I had to spend a couple of weeks hacking and slashing away at its bells and whistles (and security holes and spyware) before it would run acceptably.
XP also suffers from the classic Microsoft "your OS knows what's best for you, and you'd better like it" syndrome. On the other hand, after five years, most of the operational innards of Win98 have been well mapped by generations of hardy explorers, and there are plenty of tools available for tweaking it just so.
Obviously, Win98SE is not the greatest OS of all time; but, in terms of relative stability combined with widespread application compatability, it is certainly the most successful OS Microsoft has ever produced.
I suppose you could look at it as being similar to the late 19th century British cavalry saber -- a form which realized its ideal expression at the same time as it became obsolete.
Re:Things I wish Microsoft would retire (Score:5, Insightful)
*aHeM* Netscape, pre-Microsoft-killing, was not anywhere near being standard. The last version of Netscape that supported the standards properly was probably Netscape 3.01. After that they too tried to pull Microsofts game on Microsoft, embrace/extend/etc. However Microsoft ultimately won due to the tight grip on the desktop.
I still use Windows98 (and I am sure others do to) (Score:2, Insightful)
I still use Windows98.
And in case you are wondering, I have also been a Sysadmin and various levels of technical support over the years. I have used various unices for my personal computers for both research and play. And all the different versions of Windows.. my conclusion is that for my day-to-day usage of a computer, Windows98 works best for me. It seems to be the best (and worse?) of all the other versions. There are uses still for MSDOS and the old designed Windows OS. I have, and continue to locate software that gives WindowsXP fits. And I have to be able to play Diablo, Quake and use older software titles. Win98 runs everything I need.
Multiple users? Don't have 'em. It is just me. So it makes managing my stuff easier.
XP and 98 were designed with different intended uses, yet both run 16-bit and 32-bit applications. So I figure I am pretty safe until 64-bit applications become the norm.. but then again, I understand that processors will have a 32-bit emulation ability.. so I am safe for a while, and the older hardware will become cheaper than a dinner for your family at McDonalds. And the software to run on it as free as the bandwidth that I use to locate it on the internet.
Re:for better? or for worse? (Score:3, Insightful)
Au Contraire! I update my software I care about security and stability. I also do not pirate Microsoft software.
My Laptop and game box are running purchased copies of 98SE, I have a legal uninstalled copy of 2000 sitting on the shelf. ( came with the latop, never broke the shrink-wrap)
The game box is secured by a Devil-linux firewall, and the laptop install is there just for officeXP-pro (also purchased, student discount). The primary OS on the laptop is Fedora Core-1, just dual-booting to 98SE when I have no choice but using OfficeXP instead of OpenOffice. No virus or worms, I don't use IE or Outlook on anything.
I see no rhyme nor reason to move to Win2k or XP or Win2003 as long as Open Source and 98 meets my requirements. So how does this scream "I don't update, or care about stability & security?"
I plan on using 98SE until it will no longer run on my new hardware. I will not buy another MS produce, Hell they are not even worth pirating, I can get cheap education editions and even free enterprise versions from less scrupulous associates, but why bother? I Like 98 on a 2.4GHz box. Talk about speed.... It is a nice thin game client when properly tweaked.
Now if Bill-G wants to seriously wound Linux, he can open the source to 98. That would strip a number of developers away from Linux and main-stream OSS as they dink around showing how Microsoft should have fixed the problems in 98.
Re:Truly Sad..... (Score:1, Insightful)
The recovery console DOES work. I have used it a few times. And before you get bent out of shape I have used it to recover from
also the registry is backed up in 3 places.
C:\WINDOWS\system32\config
and in
C:\System Volume Information
if you let it be.
There is another for the user hives. Its somewhere under the doc&settings dir...
You can also backup the files to floppy if you like. There are utils out there for that. Then its nothing a simple 'copy' in RC will not fix.
Never more stable than NT (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Truly Sad..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Hello LAST KNOWN GOOD CONFIGURATION.
I mean, it even detects failed boots and offers you the last known good config option automatically.
And any DLL necessary for booting is always in \dllcache, so some twit's stupid installer can't overwrite it.
You are either making stuff up or making your life more difficult than it needs to be.
Re:Upgrade (Score:4, Insightful)
You silly, it would be used to create libwin32.so.98 and some kernel modules, and native windows applications would run about anywhere.
Re:Truly Sad..... (Score:2, Insightful)
Incorrect. There are a number of tools which permit protected system files to be overwritten. It will require a reboot, but that's not a big deal.
And did you ever proof-read your statement? "... stupid installed overwrites"... "on XP... can't overwrite it". That right there should show you that it is completely possible to "overwrite" or restore the file.
In the name of security (Score:3, Insightful)
Interesting, that could be a valid point. What is the turn-around for SUN on security issues? I'm sure there must be some, but I've never heard of them. Certainly not the weekly holes and patches that seem to be released for your basic Microsoft applications.
What the judge said is that they had to use SUN's one-true-Java. Rather then change their applications to use the standard SUN Java, they decided to scrap them. Litigation took so long that some of these programs are close to their end of life anyway. How Childish.
He also forgot the last line: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I have Win98 in this gateway I'm using (Score:2, Insightful)
No, seriously, this isn't a joke or a crazy linux zealot trying to push something on you.
If you are using win98 and you can't afford 2k, you're better off using linux.
There is no reason anyone on earth should be forced to use the intense migraine that is windows 98
Re:Yah I still use 98 (Score:4, Insightful)
Anybody who says that raw c++ is easier than VB is on crack! Microsofts whole business model is based on making it easy for people to build software for the platform.
I write business apps in Python (and VB) using COM and I have to say that it is actually pretty neat as long as your company is already willing to pay the MS Office tax.
Re:I don't understand... (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course, considering the recent reports about kernel bugs, unless your Linux box is sitting unconnected to any networks, years of uptime may not make you the smartest admin. Just an observation.
Re:Upgrade (Score:3, Insightful)
When Microsoft discontinues Win98, there is NOONE ELSE who can support Win98. You are stuck. With open-source, any company can offer support for any product. A true free market, which is only available by having open source code.
I don't compile my own anything anymore, except a few Perl modules. However, having the source available means that my RH8 boxes will continue to be in healthful condition over the next few years.
It works both ways, folks... (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously, in *every* case where someone complains that their Windows setup is unstable, I've found one of three factors is actually at fault:
1) Crap hardware and/or drivers
2) Lack of basic maintenance (frex, defragging)
3) Installing tons of crapware/spyware, and/or uninstalling apps via the "random deletia" method
The average Windows install, with *ZERO* maintenance and much abuse, lasts about three years before it reaches a point where most Joe Users think it needs a reformat. Meaning it's gotten slow, and crashes more than once a week or so. (Tho so far I've only seen ONE Windows setup that I couldn't quickly clean up and restore to good working order, *without* a reformat. Reinstalling stuff is against my religion. :)
Serious question: Can a default linux install survive three years of daily abuse and neglect, by clueless users who nonetheless stick their fingers into everything in reach, and still be functional enough to be merely "annoying" (the state at which most folk give up on a neglected WinSetup)??
Linux proponents are always saying that anyone who thinks linux is hard to get running good are just ignorant. Consider that the reverse is also true -- that anyone who can't get Windows to run stable is equally ignorant.
Because frankly, folks, it just ain't that hard. [slashdot.org]
Re:So? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't normally leave my XP box powered up since it's a specific-task system, but now I think I will for a while, just to see (BTW it has Intel CPU/chipset). It's been up for a couple weeks right now, mostly burning CDs for 4-5 hours at a crack, and is behaving fine.
That machine's other boot is WinME... and yeah, in its default config, ME is terrible, it wouldn't stay up for 15 minutes, and couldn't even crash gracefully (took 20 minutes to finish crashing). I did away with Restore, applied 98Lite in default "uncouple IE from the desktop" mode, and learned never to use the "new help" (which apparently FUBARs memory)... and since then, WinME hasn't crashed in over three YEARS, despite being abused as the "install anything once" test machine.
BTW, I'm not used to Windows crashing, and consider it an anomalous event. I have Win95 and Win98 boxes that have NEVER crashed, even doing real work and with uptimes of a couple months or more. Most of mine have NEVER bluescreened, either.
My old DOS box routinely ran up to 2 years without a reboot (and then only because the HD took a dump) and I think that spoiled my expectations