Sun's Simon Phipps Answers ESR On Java 707
comforteagle writes "Sun's Chief Technology Officer Simon Phipps has answered Eric Raymond's open letter calling on Sun to open source Java." In the quoted response, Phipps says (condensed) "I'd say this is 100 per cent rant... His simplistic accusations don't hold water... If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I'd hate to see how it treats its enemies... It's pretty difficult to respond to this. He's so out of touch."
I wouldnt mind... (Score:1, Interesting)
Mono (Score:3, Interesting)
I moved from Java to Mono/c# recently and I don't think I'll be going back.
Don't know what anyone else thinks?
Re:I say yeah! (Score:2, Interesting)
From the horses mouth (Score:5, Interesting)
He said that it wouldn't happen because Sun didn't want to see multiple versions of Java out there. If MS went and changed some things in Sun's Java and then started to bundle their version of Java with Windows, who knows what will happen.
We will start to see different versions of Java. People will start to think that the MS version of Java is the actual "real" Java and get mad when someone writes a Java program using Sun's version of Java.
Then, MS will be able to start to dictate what goes in Java, or they will just stop following Sun's vison of Java and go on their own merry way.
He gave more reasons and it convinced me that it really wasn't that great of an idea to open source Java.
Rant? (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess it's hard to be coherent when your company doesn't really know where it stands wrt open source.
Friends of Open Source?!?!?!?!!? (Score:0, Interesting)
We haven't forgotten, Simon. [newsfactor.com]
Re:rings a bell. . . (Score:4, Interesting)
Is that all they're teaching folks in MBA school anymore? Don't respond to valid arguments and criticism; instead, discredit your detractors by branding them as "out of touch" or "communist" or a "tree hugger".
It's actually a good response in situations where any response would be the wrong one. Sun could try to explain their reasoning, tell everyone about the SCSL, show all the contributions to Open Source they've made, and they'd still get skewered. At least this way, they have a fighting chance. Quite a few people agree with Sun's position and disagree with ESR. By using the ad hominem response, they're bolstering the opinions of those people and making their voices louder. Any other tack would have made their supporter's voices that much quieter.
Re:foresight (Score:4, Interesting)
P.S. The lameness filter aborted this biblical quote in its proper form
Re:Article Text (Score:5, Interesting)
I have some trouble understanding this statement. Does Scott lie to lawyers, or us?
My god, should we only read and consider statements that are directly addressed to us? Should we be spoon-fed by statements that are tailored to what we want to hear (not talking about slashdot here, of course
Arrogance (Score:1, Interesting)
I thought Sun.. (Score:5, Interesting)
The only gripe I have is that a lot of systems don't have the newer Java 2 VM (it's been out for a few years now, people, update your VM already). A lot of people are still operating with the older standard, so I have to keep the older JDK 1.1.8 development kit around. Sun, if you're reading, launch an ad blitz, educate the nontechnical to visit java.com and grab an updated VM. And make sure you hit some of the "neglected" computer users too, such as school districts. Perhaps press a few million CDs with the Java VM and offer to mail them for free, or reduced postage?
The Java of today is much better than the perceptions of many developers. Java is decently fast, the Swing packages offer a lot of flexibility, i/o support is terrific, etc.
Just one last plea: PLEASE, SUN, stop labeling everything you sell Java. You're diluting the brand.
Sun is a friend of open source? (Score:3, Interesting)
If Sun's actions in the case of SCO are the behavior of a friend of OS, then either Sun is utterly clueless or their definition of "friend" is nonstandard.
Re:Sun & Open Source (Score:2, Interesting)
What arey talking about? SuSE includes both Sun's JRE and Sun's JDK in their distro.
Re:From the horses mouth (Score:3, Interesting)
So he's right, an Open Source (note caps) license might fork Java. However, if it were released as Free Software (note caps), it would not be forked in a meaningful way.
Look at Linux, and look at BSD. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying that one license style lends itself to forking and the other does not. If Sun prefers no forking they can use the GPL and quit whining.
Re:Uh huh. (Score:3, Interesting)
There are reasons why Sun can't open-source Java (Score:5, Interesting)
Similar issues apply to copyrights. I assume there are portions of the Java implementation which are copyrighted from other companies which have licensed to Sun, but do you think these agreements are compatible with Sun putting something out under GPL or BSD? I wouldn't think so.
All of this is a bummer, to put it one way. I can think of some awesome projects to do with Java. How about a TRUE Java Desktop, where we take just enough of the Linux kernel to boot, and rewrite most of the system (device drivers and all) in Java and run the JVM essentially on the "bare metal" with all the apps in Java? That would be awesome, but impossible unless the JVM is Open Source.
Ah, and this brings me to MONO, a project which is a tragedy because it is walking into a big trap called "patents".
The right thing to do is to put the effort into gcj and Kaffe [kaffe.org] to bring them up to commercial usability. I really think it is time to abandon C/C++ for writing apps. We could debate this all day long (ok, on /., we could debate it until the heat death of the Universe) but the fact is that C++ is a pain to work in and lacks the safety features of Java. I would love to see Open Source development shift to Java. I am scared of Open Source development shifting to MONO/C# because I know that it's a trap.
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Create a WAP [chiralsoftware.net] server
Re:From the horses mouth (Score:2, Interesting)
I guess at this point since the whole of slashdot is getting it wrong due to the standard failure to RTFA, I'll just let it go...
Re:Mono (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally I wouldn't hitch too many of my horses to either one of them.
That is what I think.
KFG
Re:ESR is primiadonna (Score:5, Interesting)
Ring a ding ding (Score:1, Interesting)
Besides ESR is hardly blameless. So Sun's CTO delivers unto him the wisdom of, "Dude. Still black. Keep it to yourself, you don't have much going for you besides reputation, and that's not what it might have been." Insulting? Maybe. True? Looks that way.
Re:Mono (Score:2, Interesting)
C++ is a little harder to learn, but worth the effort. Javas write-once-run-anyware claim sounds great, but if you use standard libraries, C++ code can be recompiled for any platform for which a compiler exists (and g++ runs on more architectures then any JVM).
During the dot-com-boom the industry was crying out for new programmers. Java was popular because it's easier to teach to novice progreammers. I can't see the appeal myself.
Re:ESR is primiadonna (Score:2, Interesting)
http://esr.1accesshost.com/
Sun is doing their best (Score:5, Interesting)
After a few days in which we were quite alarmed, Sun's technical director sent me an email to apologize and said he would fix the matter. Within no time, we got reports of being mentioned on the back of the cd covers and their website, and they sent us an evaluation cd. Our project was even mentioned in an article about JDS in the Guardian. There hasn't been much contact since, but it's good to see how quick they react.
Frankly, I didn't even think they gave a damn, but it seems that despite their size they are trying to do The Right Thing(tm). It's a pity ESR had to open his mouth like he did. They are willing to listen, but at least say something intelligent...
Re:rings a bell. . . (Score:1, Interesting)
If some prominent NetKook like Raymond comes after them some halfwit crap , they will reply in kind, just as they would respond to Microsoft. Expecting Sun to put on the kiddie gloves is ridiculous.
Re:Conversation! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship (Score:4, Interesting)
You have to understand that standardising the syntax of the language means nothing. This is true for both Java and C#. The core syntax of the language is such a small part of the entire platform. You implied that Microsoft is somehow "better" than Sun because they standardised the syntax of the language.
MS is actuallly worse than Sun because they are sneaky. You aren't even allowed to re-implement the MS libraries. Well, they have said that it's mostly OK, but they can pull out various patent lawsuits (patent infrigement?) at a moments notice if a free implementation becomes too good.
Java, on the other hand, is safe to re-implement. Of course, you'll have to play catchup with Sun for every new version, but you can always join the JCP and get a say in what is added to the language. Exactly how do you do that with .net?
Re:What writing? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Be wary of ESR's "analysis". My Email to ESR (Score:2, Interesting)
I sent:
Eric-
If you really want your letter to be taken seriously by Sun, you must change the section about stock price:
*
But the casual equation between "open source" and "zero revenue" suggests that on another level you don't really know what you're talking about. Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had a share price over triple Sun's when I just checked.
*
Do you think Sun will take business advice from somebody that doesn't understand something as fundamental as stock price? I beg you - please change this. Talk about market cap, earnings, whatever - stock price is completely irrelevant. Sun could set their share price at $1000000 tomorrow if they wanted to (well, not tomorrow - the market is closed.
Just replace the last sentance with:
Open source is hardly a zero-revenue model; ask Red Hat, which had earnings last quarter. Sun, on the other hand, lost money.
Thanks again for writing this letter - we're all with you.
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And he replied:
No it isn't irrelevant. Sun cannot "set" a share prise; the market does that, and it reflects investor expectations of future earnings per share.
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And to that I replied:
Just FYI - a company can set the share price to whatever they want by doing a split or reverse split. I would recommend focusing on the fact that RedHat has been profitable for the past 5 quarters, while Sun has either lost money or broken even for the past 5. Growth might be something to mention as well.
I don't want to get into a whole big thing here; we're on the same side - i agree with you 100%!
Again, thanks for writing the letter - I hope it gets some results!
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Didn't get a response to that last one. He's just one of those typical computer guys that talks out of his ass. You know the type - they won't admit that there's something that they don't know. When will those people learn?! Admitting ignorance is the first step to knowledge, and in turn, wisdom.
Hopefully this episode will teach him a thing or two.
Cheers!
ThePseudoGenie
Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship (Score:1, Interesting)
ESR basically fed Netscape a huge line of bullshit about how hundreds of Open Source coders would magically appear and how Navigator would improve so rapidly that Microsoft could never keep up. None of that happened.
Don't get me wrong, the end result is good, but there's not going to be another Netscape which listens ESR.
Re:Compare with Adobe's stewardship (Score:2, Interesting)
It's the November 14th entry [ibiblio.org].
Re:ESR is primiadonna (Score:3, Interesting)
No, it's completely off-base to say `Huge portions of Emacs were done by him.' ESR is at best a minor contributor to emacs; his biggest contribution was probably the GUD (Grand Unified Debugger) mode. You can see for yourself, all the ChangeLog entries are still there.
ESR is not stupid, and he does know how to program, but he doesn't seem to have ever done anything truly significant (especially compared to fellow `FOSS leaders' like RMS and Linus). Obviously that's true of most people, but in ESR's case it's particularly striking because he tends to be in the public eye so much.
java == perl/python? (Score:2, Interesting)