Code Copying Survey for Developers 389
Struan Robertson writes "With all the controversy surrounding SCO's allegations that its Unix code was copied into Linux, we're running a survey with ZD Net to gauge industry practice on code copying. Do you keep a code library? Do you take it from one employer to another? These are the questions we're asking. All answers will be anonymous. The results - with expert legal analysis - will be published free - we're not doing this to sell reports etc. If you're a developer and happy to help, see our
questions on SurveyMonkey.com."
You’d be surprised how much of a career… (Score:4, Interesting)
Code library. (Score:5, Interesting)
Its technically the same code, but I remove the the parts that are not used.
Besides, even if I didn't have the database. I will write a function to do something very close to the exact same way 90% of the time. Most of the developers I know have very reconizable styles. I can usually tell who on my team wrote what parts by the code alone.
Sorry for my spelling errors, I dont have time to spellcheck.
Code libraries aren't that helpful (Score:5, Interesting)
Besides, the parts of a code library that are most likely to be reusable are also most likely to be publically known algorithms (B-Tree, MD5 hash, etc.) and therefore published in some form already. It's probably wrong to take something that you were specifically paid to produce for one company along with you to another, so don't do it.
grep \brief\backup\*.c* (Score:0, Interesting)
Choice? (Score:5, Interesting)
6. Would you re-use blocks of code written elsewhere
a) ( ) Only if you were confident that nobody would find out
b) ( ) Whether it would be found out or not
Where is 'c) I won't'?
bad questions (Score:4, Interesting)
I work for a University and... (Score:3, Interesting)
3. By law, who do you think owns the rights in a piece of software that you develop or in code that you write?
Me
My employer
The client who commissioned and is paying for the development
Is missing: Me AND My employer - as I share the ownership 50/50 due to our inhouse rules.
Taught in College (Score:4, Interesting)
This is not a can of worms you want to open (Score:5, Interesting)
Our intellectual property laws, when interpreted strictly, are a bit of a farce. Especially when it comes to thinks like patents, work for hire, the nebulous concept of derived works, "clean rooms..." all the way down to the embattled idea of fair use, backups, lending versus copying, onerous and unenforcable NDAs and employment contracts, and the end fact that, as a society, we have never ever, even for a day, played by the basic copyright rules "100%."
Our whole industry functions by ignoring the rules most of the time. I have never worked anyplace where all the rules (licenses, for instance) were followed. I always follow them myself to the best of my abilities - but it's impossible. I've probably unintentionally violated a license by now, and I've almost certainly infringed thousands of patents. I have never brought code from one client to another without permission or license, not even once, not even when it would have saved untold time and money and was simply the most obvious, easy thing to do... but over the years I received quite a bit of pressure under various circumstances to do it, and I'm certain that quite a few other people do.
That said, because the SCO issue (or non-issue, to be frank) is raised, let me say that it's a different thought process when you're going between the commercial and the free software world - both because the pressures to cheat don't exist (or hardly to any similar extent) in OSS, and because it is almost certain in OSS you'll be caught out. It's like parking a stolen car on the street in front of your house.
But commercial project to commercial project, yes, I bet it happens quite often. And also from OSS to commercial - I would be shocked if there were many large commercial projects that don't have stolen OSS code in them...
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, though, would you really trust a person who completely relied on copy/pasting legacy code into current projects? Do you know where that person got the code to begin with? Did he write it? Does he even understand the code?
While just about everyone I know keeps a personal code library containing *some* proprietary code, most don't actively use it. Those who are unscrupulous enough to copy/paste the code into current projects are not people you want around in the long term. I mean, did they even think about the best solution to the problem before doing that copy/paste?
Most people I know use their library as a reference for future development. This allows them to take the best features/ideas of their historical library and integrate those ideas in new and better ways into their current projects. And I don't see a problem with this behavior. Any person with a decent memory would remember their best ideas and features, anyway, so the illegality of this behavior is questionable.
Taft
Re:Kind of a stupid survey. (Score:2, Interesting)
I worked for a contracting company that 1) wrote and marketed its own software, 2) developed software at the request and for other companies, and 3) developed software for its own use to accomplish work tasks for other companies. Depending on the nature of work, either the client owned it (also, we contracted with the Federal gov - which, by law, requires software developed by them to pass in the public domain) or the company retained ownership. Also, the terms of my employment agreement stipulated (at my insistance) that software I develop not directly related to accomplishing a specific project function is mine.
So
Re:I work for a University and... (Score:3, Interesting)
It's pretty standard for your employer to own the work they pay you to do for them... so even if there's no outright agreement, they can still make a strong case that it is implied/understood. Gotta cover your own ass these days.
I'd suggest no one take this survey. (Score:5, Interesting)
Most questions don't take into account the varying ways that code gets licensed and work gets done. They assume you're either giving the code to your employer or stealing it, when there is a whole universe of licensing paths in between those two nodes.
ack (Score:4, Interesting)
I completely agree with you that the parts of a code library that are most likely to be reusable are known and published algorithms. That and other trivial things is pretty much all I have in my code library.
Then you went and drew two conclusions that were completely different from the ones I drew out of the same facts we both agree with.
First you say "code libraries aren't that helpful" in the title. No, they won't be a significant portion of the code you right for the new company, but they're helpful enough in preventing you from reinventing the wheel every single time. Do I really want to rewrite everything I use again and again everytime I need it? Heck, I find them very helpful in preventing me from doing that.
Second, you say "it's probably wrong to take something you were specifically paid to produce for one company along with you to another, so don't do it." It's not that black and white, and it really depends on what exactly is in that code library (ethically at least. IANAL so I couldn't tell you legally). Without question, only code you wrote yourself is ethical for you to take with you. Other than that, in my opinion anything not directly related to the project you were working on is fair game. How likely is it that you're not going to be using certain primitives in your new job? How likely is it that if you write it again from scratch it will be different? You're just saving time, not giving away company secrets (which would be unethical)
Re:Code library. (Score:2, Interesting)
story: I got called in to this web project where the 'developers' copied tons of code and in most cases didn't even bother to change the name of the variables. So you got tons of spaghetti code that looked like this:
var stolenVar1 = myVar1;
var stolenVar2 = myVar2;
var stolenVar3 = myVar3;
copied code here
*/
myVar1 = stolenVar1;
myVar2 = stolenVar3;
The same blocks of code were copied several times, and of course they were completely buggy. Total bitch to fix.
Re:Choice? (Score:3, Interesting)
d) Only with permission
I've worked on Boehm's garbage collector [hp.com] at two employers, with their blessing. The changes I contributed back while at Roundpoint [roundpoint.com], are also usable in the code I'm working on at Business Web Software [businesswebsoftware.com]. A former colleague at Roundpoint also sent me some incomplete changes I made there that hadn't yet been contributed back. Since my managers had a clue about FLOSS, this reuse was all perfectly OK with them.
Re:Kind of a stupid survey. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm pretty sure that this is what you meant, but just to clarify (under US law at least - it's the same in Canada, but I couldn't find a reference quickly) - if you're an independent contractor, the copyright only belongs to the guy with the cash if it's explicitly stated in the contract that this is a work for hire.
When freelancing, or representing my company, I never assign the copyright to the buyer, unless:
Part of what people get when they hire me or my company is a big-ass code library. It's impossible to be competitive these days without that. I'm not about to assign any part of that to someone else, and I'm not going to be giving them copyright on anything I might develop for them without appropriate compensation.
As for the survey, yeah, most of the questions were maddeningly vague. They didn't include most of the copyright situations I've been faced with, including the one where I had an employee contract stating that they could use anything I wrote for them as they saw fit, and so could I.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:2, Interesting)
I do a lot of independent work, and I make sure that my contracts spell out the fact that I will be using and maintaining my own code library. Just don't sign an "All Your Base" contract if you don't intend on keeping it.
Occassionally I get a client that doesn't like that arrangement, but then I get paid to rewrite boilerplate code, which is easy money.
(OTOH, I have worked with guys who's "code library" consists of tons of (c) shithole.com stuff from their former employers.)
A Subtlety Missing From The Survey (Score:2, Interesting)
I am perfectly okay with the idea that my employer owns the former and that I can't treat that as a portable code library, and they're perfectly okay with me including my code library's code in their products, as long as my license (the BSD license, as it turns out) allows it with minimal encumberance.
It can complicated to decide which base I'm writing the code for, but I typically use the rule that if I'm in the office it's theirs, and if I'm at home it's mine. I write in Java, so I use package names to further delineate which is which.
Everybody wins this way : they get more code, I get code that makes my life easier throughout my career.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why re-write email or zip utilities? Also, any process flow control code is fair game.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:3, Interesting)
In short, if I ever meet that overpaid consultant type, I'll punch him in the throat.
What counts as code? (Score:2, Interesting)
At my very first programming job, I had the opportunity to work with a few very skilled developers, and I held on to the code they used to to prototype a data management system. Is it illegal for me to have it? I'm guessing, strictly, yes. But I'll never implement that code elsewhere, because it was a very specialized client/server application for a very specialized client. I couldn't use it elsewhere, even if I wanted to...and quite honestly, most people code for applications and clients that are so specialized, that in most cases, it would be illogical to try and carry that over to another company (or even project). On the otherhand, it's useful for me to hold on to examples of "good" code and object architecture. And as far as the code I write for a particular company, it's useful for me to hang on to so that I can see what I'm now doing intelligently and what I'm still doing stupidly.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:2, Interesting)
Unless you are talking about direct hardware programming or strange math stuff (like crypto or 3D stuff), there is no such thing as propriatary code.
What exists is a huge amount of plain code to produce a innovator software.
When was the last time that you coded something where you can say: "i'm the first to code this in the world!".
elisp libraries (Score:2, Interesting)
My Emacs directory will follow me from job to job. It's a 1.5M gzipped tarball of lisp code and settings that's evolved over 14 years and I'm not parting with it.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why is that? I make all of my clients aware (in the contract) that I have a code library, and will use it and add to it from the current project as I see fit, with a big exception for "private" code (specific to the project, which would belong to the client and not me). My code library is part of what they pay me for - it lets me get projects done in a fraction of the time than if I had to code everything from scratch. But then again, I do NOT consider private code as part of my library, even if I have a backup copy or two sitting around on my network.
Seriously, though, would you really trust a person who completely relied on copy/pasting legacy code into current projects?
Who's copying verbatim? Granted, I have some general utility routines (forking commands, javascript mouseover stuff) but most of my code library isn't generalized enough to do this, so I copy/paste where I can, and make modifications where needed (and then I debug it).
Re:Sure, Why Not? Coding style... (Score:3, Interesting)
. For lists, I have the standard, Add, Delete, Append, Duplicate functions. After doing all of this, practically every application wherever I've worked will look identical. How do you go about proving that this code is original, apart from using file logging, a personal log, or some other technique.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:4, Interesting)
I looked at him kinda funny, and hesitantly said something like, "Ummm.... ok... I'll have to check with my previous employer and ask for the files and their permission."
Of course, my previous employer thought that request was odd, and didn't grant it. I emailed the interviewer my thesis and a conference publication instead (publicly available).
My question is: Has anyone else ever encountered this in a technical field?
I've heard of artists, writers, and photographers presenting their portfolio to new employers or clients, but I assume they actually own their own portfolio.
This is not a troll (Score:1, Interesting)
I can definately state that code stealing is FAR, FAR worse in commercial software than in OSS, for exactly the reason you state (that it is too easy to detect in OSS).
I know this because I am guilty of this.
I write both commercial and GPL code (a large SourceForge-hosted project). Yes, I have stolen several large blocks of code donated to that GPL project and put it into my commercial work. I have also inserted blocks of code I wrote at or for other companies, and a little bit of stuff that was written by other employees at my previous job.
However all code I put into the GPL release is entirely my own work. Now a little of this could be explained by the different goals of the project, but it definately the majority of the reason is that it would be so easy to detect.
Definatly OSS (or even copyrighted-but-viewable source) is far more observant of IP rights than any other software development. But convincing the average PHB of this is probably futile. Direct proof would get me fired, so they will continue to believe what they do, even though I know it is wrong.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:4, Interesting)
OTOH, I also have a vast libary of various projects that I have worked on and use this to crib out solutions for current ones. I usually don't cut and paste from this since it is the form I am after, not the code.
As for remembering it all...fuck me...can you really remember the 100s of thousands of API calls we all deal with now. I couldn't remember them all when it was just the Win32 API, let alone all the news ones - praise be to Intellisense!
And the biggest offender is the US Government (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, every US government employee is happy to announce that they share things explicitly all over to other parts, devisions, or branches. In their own mind, once it's labeled as government property, it's free to give away. Now this sounds pretty reasonable at first, until you consider the consultant who is paid to do a small project for a single branch. Once finished, they can now go and try to make some money doing the same thing for the other branches, and even reference the other branch that they did this for. At which point, the client picks up the phone, calls the reference, and has a copy of everything you've done sent to them. They see that they have everything they need, and tell you to have a nice day, since it's their property.
Before we start running around on a big witch hunt, let's have the US Government take a look at their own practices.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:2, Interesting)
You'd be amazed how many people out there only think that they can program.
If I'm going to be paying someone good money for coding for me, I'm going to want to know that they're capable of doing the job. Cv's are no more than a general indicator, references and referees can be unreliable, and you sure can't believe what the job applicant says !
So yeah, I need to look at code that they've written. I can see their commenting style, their variable naming style, general coding style, and even get a good idea of their competance.
That only takes me 5 - 10 minutes.
Yeah, I also look under the hood of any car I'm thinking of buying, too.
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:3, Interesting)
I told them that the code in question involved priviledged information and was not available for review. I also didn't have a copy of it, and was 100% sure my previous employer would not give it to me.
She got upset and kept pressing the issue. I tired to be reasonable and tell her I could write something tonight and send it in the next day if she needed to see my code quality. She refused and wanted to see production code. I tried explaining again that this was not something I had access to presently and that it frankly sounded a bit suspicious that she would want it. She kept at it. Finally I got up and told her that this job wasn't worth it.
The HR person called me later that day to complain about my behavior at the interview. I told her what happened and why it was a problem, from both a legal and moral standpoint. Dead silence on the other end. I thanked her and hung up.
Re:Survey is biased (Score:3, Interesting)
The crux of it is that most folks post code to a public repository because they want other people to critique and use it. If they didn't want others to critique and use it... wait, why did they post it?
A great deal of the code that I have in my library consists of acknowledgement requirements. None of it is fancy stuff, it's all easily rewritable, and I understand how it works, but... how many times do you want to write a AmountToWords function for printing checks anyway?
Re:Sure, Why Not? (Score:1, Interesting)
Bad survey design - DON'T RESPOND (Score:1, Interesting)
I can see a few comments on the survey itself, but less than I expected. So I think most people here are missing a crucial point. The survey design is no good! Surveys have to be constructed very carefully, or they can give useless or misleading results. As this one will.
Some of the problems are: Not enough options in the answers. Biased questions. Questions that are meaningless except in a specific but unspecified context. Inconsistency in the depth of questions. Etc.
An example of a bad question:
To misquote Meatloaf, What's it gonna be boy, black, or white? You have to chose one, but neither are correct.
Or to refer specifically to the survey:
Perhaps some people will say that we should choose the best answer. Well, you can only do that if there is a best answer. And for some of these questions, there just isn't. What's best? Black? Or white?
So, folks. Please don't respond to the survey! Because if you do, it will very possibly be quoted as evidence for one thing or another, but actually the results will have very limited value. However if nobody responds, perhaps a better survey might get developed. Yeah, OK, I know. Not much chance of this is there? So lets all wait for the results to be quoted as proof of [whatever], and then lets all suffer the consequences.
I think the Slashdot surveys have more validity and integrity than this one does. I'm serious!
Transistor patent (Score:4, Interesting)
Part of this is that the transistor is a physical thing, not easily made without a large investment in equipment. If I am a little guy, I just buy transistors and I am free and clear. If I am a big enough guy to make my own transistors, I pay whatever tribute money to the transistor patent holder to set up my transistor fabrication plant.
You could say that a compiler, while not a physical thing is not an easy to make thing, so if compilers were patented, I would just pay the license holder for the use of compiler just as I do now. But a linked list is not a tangible thing -- I don't buy a supply of linked lists to incorporate into customer products. A linked list simply comes into being when I order instructions in a special way.
The hardware store sells an apple picker that is a basket with prongs on the end of a stick. I suppose that device is patented -- if I want to build my own stick with a basket on the end, I suppose I could and just not tell anyone about it, or I could buy the patented gadget from the hardware store and pick without recrimination.
Suppose the patent wasn't for "basket with prongs on end of stick that proves useful for harvesting fruit" but on the "process of removing apples from high branches by using a mechanical device to make contact with the apples" and someone went around sending cease and desist orders to people picking fruit.
Or how about if someone discovered that digging holes in your lawn on a three foot grid prevented weeds. I wouldn't have any problem with someone patenting a "lawn rejuvenator device" for sale at the hardware store, but suppose I heard of this idea and started digging those holes with an ordinary shovel (which I had already paid for) and someone sent me a letter that I couldn't do that without paying a fee?
I say that there is a difference in kind between hardware and software patents and that software patents stink.