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Microsoft

WiX Project Lead Interviewed On CPL Licensing 132

Posted by simoniker from the give-it-away-now dept.
comforteagle writes "After Microsoft released WiX (Windows Installer XML) under the CPL I found it odd that so many interviews following were with almost everyone but the project lead. So, for your Friday enjoyment I've posted an interview with Rob Mensching, Wix Project lead, who sheds a little light on what's going on behind the scenes at the Shared Source Initiative from the ground." Mensching explains: "My bosses were not involved in the decision which license should be used for the Windows Installer XML toolset. I worked with members of the Shared Source Initiative team who understand the details of the various licenses available to share source code. They listened to my requirements and found that the CPL seemed most appropriate for the toolset."
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WiX Project Lead Interviewed On CPL Licensing More

WiX Project Lead Interviewed On CPL Licensing

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  • One question: (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24, 2004 @04:38AM (#8957788)
    How does this make Microsoft yet more evil?

    • Re:One question: (Score:4, Insightful)

      by shione ( 666388 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:12AM (#8957855) Journal
      Not more evil but its something that doesnt really help the community that much (as there are plenty of good Win installers out there like Nullsoft's). at the same time it gives ms some volley to say 'hey we support open source too!'

      • But is (say) the Nullsoft installer using the MSI system or is it just like a setup.exe-kind of thing?

      • Re:One question: (Score:4, Informative)

        by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @07:55AM (#8958113) Homepage
        1. Not more evil but its something that doesnt really help the community that much (as there are plenty of good Win installers out there like Nullsoft's). at the same time it gives ms some volley to say 'hey we support open source too!'

        NSIS, while good at what it does, does not generate MSI packages.

        Making MSI packages is a pain, so this project is welcome.

        That said, I have no interest in it beyond Windows; MSI is a good attempt at package management, though it is not as nice as the package formats of RPM or DEB and the associated tools. (Yes, there are about a dozen 'necessary' additions and changes to RPM/DEB & tools I'd like to see.)

      • Re:One question: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        That reminds me Apple, are you saying that Apple releasing their source code under open source doesn't mean anything?

        More and more people see what the open source is all about. I think we are going to see some segmentation within open source community. I am an open source developer, but I don't approve your message in anyway, thus you just do not represent me. There are thousands of developers like me who just don't give a damn about the communism Stallman is trying to spread. We are simply developers and

    • Re:One question: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If you can't think of a reason why anything could make Microsoft any more evil then.. Welcome new user! Enjoy your stay at this lovely board!

  • German (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24, 2004 @04:38AM (#8957789)
    Next time, ask around to see what a name means in other languages before you choose it for an international project... You don't want to name your project "WiX" in Germany.
    • "WiX"

      Wix? Wichs? Wichsen?

    • Educate me. What does it mean? Cock?

      • Re:German (Score:5, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24, 2004 @04:55AM (#8957822)
        "Wichsen" is manual stimulation of the male genitals, usually masturbation. If someone introduced you as the "Leiter des WiX projekts", that would mean you are the leader of the masturbation project.

        • Re:German (Score:2, Funny)

          by mritunjai ( 518932 )
          If someone introduced you as the "Leiter des WiX projekts", that would mean you are the leader of the masturbation project.

          And that is what exactly this is!! Isn't WiX a great MS effort of pleasing itself with open source concept ?? :-P

        • Is Microsoft telling members of the Open Source Community to jerk off?
    • babelfish doesn't give me any clue as to what wix means, a hint perchance?

    • Re:German (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      for those of you who don't know, "wichs" is slang for "choad" in German.

    • Re:German (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      wixen, wichsen, v.: to wank

    • Re:German (Score:5, Funny)

      by neglige ( 641101 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:14AM (#8957859)
      You don't want to name your project "WiX" in Germany

      No, but boy will this be fun (see other posts for translations) :)

      Now, your installation can be "hingewixt" quickly on your "wixed" system. Many people already suspected that everything from MS is "abgewixt". But, best of all, as it is free (as in speech), anybody can "wixen", and everyone can share the "wixe" and knowledge about "wixen".

      Thank you, Microsoft, for making tech-talk on public transit so much more... interesting.

      • Re:German (Score:1, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Now, your installation can be "hingewixt" quickly

        And, because it's M$ stuff, it is sure to "zerwix" your system.
      • I always knew there were a lot of wichsers at MS
      • And I'd like to see all the Swiss Germans yelling "Chummt der Sprutz?" (does it come...) when the install some MS software. :)

        Of course, some MS software might be "spritzig" and geeks in Germany might have to redefine "Eine gespritzte Schorle"....
        • And I'd like to see all the Swiss Germans yelling "Chummt der Sprutz?" (does it come...) when the install some MS software

          A Harry-and-Sally moment when watching the progress bar:
          "Yes... Yeesssss... it's coming... 80% installed... almost there... almost there... 90%... yessss... yeeeeeeessssssssssss!!!!!!"

    • Re:German (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      hehe Its not like the first time they've done this too. It was a smart move of microsoft to name their console after a symbol the japanese consider bad luck.

    • Re:German (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Hank Powers ( 467121 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:36AM (#8957895) Homepage
      The same applies to Google's Orkut service. Orkut is the Finnish for "orgasms".
    • ...there's so many languages, you're bound to run into some bad word, or that is homothetic to some bad word. For instance, Ford introduced a car model called Fitta, which in Norwegian would be like "Ford Cunt". Their slogan was "Small on the outside, large when you get inside". Now for a car, that might not be such a bad slogan... They renamed it Honda Jazz here, but I think they still use that name elsewhere.

      Kjella
    • WiX is an accronym
    • Then again, they have been close enough for some time now with that WindowsXP

  • Microsoft (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 24, 2004 @04:47AM (#8957800)
    Has Microsoft ever done ANYTHING that /. has approved of?

    I sure if MS released the source code to Windows 2003 under the GPL tomorrow /. would find some nefarious plot behind that too.

    -Cecil

    • Re:Microsoft (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      yes, making dos edit, but I heard VI users disagree.

    • Re:Microsoft (Score:5, Funny)

      by rking ( 32070 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:52AM (#8957915)
      Has Microsoft ever done ANYTHING that /. has approved of?

      Didn't they kill clippy?

    • Re:Microsoft (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Curtman ( 556920 )
      If all of /. unanimously was in favour of anything at all whatsoever, I would be shocked and amazed. Seems you can't even have a good MS bashing without some fool spouting off about zealotry.

      I'm not even so sure being a zealot is necessarily a bad thing.
      • zealot \Zeal"ot\, n. [F. z['e]lote, L. zelotes, Gr. ?. See Zeal.] One who is zealous; one who engages warmly in any cause, and pursues his object with earnestness and ardor; especially, one who is overzealous, or carried away by his zeal; one absorbe
      • Like the man says...

        I've found the only way to build someone's trust is to continually demonstrate your good intentions and apologize for any mistakes you might make along the way.

        So far though have we seen either of these prerequesites from Microsoft to any great degree?

        I think not.

    • It seems to me like thier are alot of xbox and halo fans here at slashdot. Not unanimous support of coarse.


    • Has Microsoft ever done ANYTHING that /. has approved of?

      You don't suppose that the things Microsoft does that might gain approval amoung Slashdot readers are greatly overshadowed by Microsoft's other distasteful actions? And I suppose it would be out of the question to even consider that this track record might be Microsoft's own fault.

  • XML based MSI (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sweet cunny muffin ( 771671 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @04:48AM (#8957803)

    For anyone wondering, this is basically an XML wrapper for the MSI.

    MSI files are binary databases that you had to edit with a nasty tool called oracle. The whole thing was counter intuitive. I could never understand why the MSI wasn't XML based from the start. It was written when MS was XML mad, after all.

    This is brilliant. You can now work with a text source file format for the MSI.

    • Re:XML based MSI (Score:4, Informative)

      by Keeper ( 56691 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:15AM (#8957862)
      Quote:
      I could never understand why the MSI wasn't XML based from the start. It was written when MS was XML mad, after all.

      Actually it wasn't.

      Okay, so that explains the why structured storage files were chosen for the base file format, but why use a relational database format in the first place? On this point, my memory was better. Relational databases were just the "in" thing at the time. Picking a relational database file format in the mid-1990s would be kinda' like picking XML as your file format today. I have to wonder if, in five year's time, anybody will be questioning why the heck so many developers picked a verbose, text based file format for so many of their applications.
      -- robmen [msdn.com]

    • Not oracle (Score:5, Informative)

      by News for nerds ( 448130 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:24AM (#8957875) Homepage
      but Orca [microsoft.com]
    • Yes, it's not too bad.

      However somebody did beat them to it a long while ago: Msi2Xml [sourceforge.net].

  • Other Microsoft Shared Source Licensing Programs (Score:5, Informative)

    by crem_d_genes ( 726860 ) * on Saturday April 24, 2004 @04:59AM (#8957828)
    Mensching: "I am not well versed in all of the licenses used by the Shared Source Initiative. As I described above, I went to the Shared Source Initiative team with the goals of my project and we agreed that the CPL was an appropriate license for the Windows Installer XML toolset."

    Other types of shared source license programs [microsoft.com] at Microsoft, and further links in the Shared Source Initiative [microsoft.com].

  • Why can't windows have decent package management.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by autopr0n ( 534291 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:03AM (#8957835) Homepage Journal
    MSI installation on windows is a huge step up from the old setup.exe situation, but it isn't that often used.

    What I'd really love to see on windows is something where windows tracked the 'lineage' of every file (and reg key) on the system. So, when you want to get rid of a program, you're able to remove everything the program touched, save files you've copied over to another location.

    It's easy to get software installed on windows, now they need to work on a method to get everything removed, especialy spyware...
    • MSI installation on windows is a huge step up from the old setup.exe situation, but it isn't that often used.

      I guess you're thinking in terms of home software and games then. The PCs I set up for our office network have very few apps that aren't MSI-based... AV, Office, accounting software, image editor, PCAnywhere all use the Windows Installer.

      The only real problem with MSI is when a PC crashes during an install and after reboot you can't use the installer because it believes it's already doing an
      • There are all kinds of quirks especially with office. One that I hate is that office insists on keeping track of where it was installed FROM. If you ever move that directory it acts goofy and slows down. If you try to reinstall it refuses. What you have to do is to dig throgh the registry and wipe out all memory of the first install so you can reinstall.

    • Making your own MSI for apps you want deployed via policy on a business network is the one of the only ways you are going to get them installed, short of going to each machine with a cd and installing manually. That works just fine with about 10 machines, mabey 1,000 if you are a university with access to interns who will work cheap... but when you push higher than that in the private sector you are wasting a LOT of time an money.

      • Re:Why can't windows have decent package managemen (Score:1, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Hmm... making an MSI isn't that bad. Most larger corporations probably have something like MS-SMS, ECM, etc., or even some scripting written for domain controller login scripts.

        SMS and ECM can certainly be used to "push" new applications and uninstall old ones on network clients... So can a simple VBScript (using TqcRunas.dll...). I know, because I wrote one that pushed an IE5/6 security patch on about 1000 desktops via the domain login script...

  • Interesting Interview (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Slugworth01 ( 738383 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:03AM (#8957836)
    Based on the interview, Rob seems like a typical developer. Answers to questions are short and sweet, no marketing buzzwords. Does seem to have a lot of M$ religion though.

    This is being handled by M$ in a most interesting way; most likely all be design. This is not (IMHO) a project that escaped from Redmond, they have a plan in mind. The question is - is this a "hip fake" to the OSS community to fool everyone while they finalize their master plan of world domination of all computers everywhere, or is it an example of M$ recognizing the value of OSS and using it when it makes sense?

    • Re:Interesting Interview (Score:5, Interesting)

      by shione ( 666388 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @05:17AM (#8957864) Journal
      I like that guys edge too, most notably at the part where he said "My bosses were not involved in the decision which license should be used for the Windows Installer XML toolset. I worked with members of the Shared Source Initiative team who understand the details of the various licenses available to share source code. They listened to my requirements and found that the CPL seemed most appropriate for the toolset."

      and then "As the project administrator of the Windows Installer XML project, I consider it my primary responsibility to build a community focused improving the Windows Installer XML toolset. To create that community, the members must first trust that the project is going to continue. If someone doesn't yet trust that the Windows Installer XML project is going to continue but is still interested, then I would suggest he or she wait and watch. I've found the only way to build someone's trust is to continually demonstrate your good intentions and apologize for any mistakes you might make along the way.
      "

      Good to see he has a lot of confidence in OS. :)

    • Re:Interesting Interview (Score:4, Insightful)

      by r.jimenezz ( 737542 ) <rjimenezh@@@gmail...com> on Saturday April 24, 2004 @06:37AM (#8957978)
      What I think this gives Microsoft is an excellent opportunity to get its feet wet with a truly opensource licensed project that doesn't impact their bottom line.

      It is a well known best practice to never adopt a new business process, technology or in general any dramatic change in a thorough, one fell swoop fashion. Instead, pilot projects and gradually-phased programs give you the chance to gauge the effects of your decisions while you go.

      With WiX, I get under the impression MS gets to see how does it feel like to handle an open source project and maybe find a way to prepare to get revenue out of it (don't see it happening yet with WiX but they can learn for later)

      • [...] maybe find a way to prepare to get revenue out of it [...]

        I agree that it's difficult to see any revenue coming directly from WiX, but indirectly it has one hell of a possibility. Just consider:

        • People are writing lots of software for Windows
        • Installing software on that platform is not exactly easy (from what I've heard)
        • Freely available and unified tool(set) + interface for software install/uninstall lets authors use a system that works and that is the same for all software in given platform. (
      • With WiX, I get under the impression MS gets to see how does it feel like to handle an open source project and maybe find a way to prepare to get revenue out of it (don't see it happening yet with WiX but they can learn for later)

        WiX didn't cost Microsoft anything anyway, it was written in the authors spare time according to the original announcement and blog entries.

    • Re:Interesting Interview (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      The question is - is this a "hip fake" to the OSS community to fool everyone while they finalize their master plan of world domination of all computers everywhere, or is it an example of M$ recognizing the value of OSS and using it when it makes sense?

      It is an example of MS recognizing the value of OSS and using it when it makes sense for their master plan of world domination of all computers everywhere. ;-)

    • Re:Interesting Interview (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I think when people are talking about open source developers they usually refer to Linus and his friends, yet it covers also many windows developers. There are more open source developers working for windows than there are for linux. That's something people are missing.

      Open source community is not something you can manipulate in your post. It is not a unified community. It has some characteristics, but it is composed of thousands of people who hate Stallman, Slashdot, etc... Anybody who is going to help th

  • Heh (Score:1, Funny)

    by mackstann ( 586043 )
    Last question in the interview: "Are you an evil minion bent on destroying the opensource community?"
  • "They listened to my requirements and found that the CPL seemed most appropriate for the toolset."

    So you needed a license model that does NOT allow sharing between REAL open licenses but looks open enough. Combined with the trivial piece of code attachted to it make up out of probable completely generic pieces of code ) that will let you sue the pants of the OSS community in a couple of years ????

    Reminds me of those nice war scams where model villages are set up to show the UN that there are no numan rig

    • Re:Open ? Ohh yeah Major U turn ... NOT (Score:5, Informative)

      by JohnQPublic ( 158027 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @12:33PM (#8959425)

      So you needed a license model that does NOT allow sharing between REAL open licenses but looks open enough.

      The Open Source Initiative thinks the CPL [opensource.org] is "open". It allows derivitive works, grants no-royalty patent licenses to recipients (although only specifically for the program they receive), and allows source redistribution. It doesn't require source redistribution, but then neither do several other "open" licenses.

      So what's the problem?

  • #Develop deployment GUI potential (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BillsPetMonkey ( 654200 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @06:33AM (#8957969)
    I write in C#. Yes I confess. It's a highly productive language, and implements a lot of what Java didn't (e.g. foreach, Enums). I release under GPL, which means I can't use VS.NET because the license explicitly forbids it.

    So I use #Develop and more recently Mono Develop. Problem is, unlike VS.NET there's no package deployment option to speak of (unless you write your own).

    This project means that scripts can be generated from the GUI and then compiled using the C# candle tool provided in WiX. Enabling C# packages to be deployed on GPL.

    • Re:#Develop deployment GUI potential (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      What about using InnoSetup to help with deployment?

      http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php

      InstallShield could also be used...

  • I wonder how long ... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ... it will be before MS patents "A method of sharing software source code freely"?

  • Ten years hence... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Queuetue ( 156269 ) <queuetue AT gmail DOT com> on Saturday April 24, 2004 @07:45AM (#8958097) Homepage
    Maybe it's so when the courts try to force MS to open it's source in the coming decade, they can tell Congress

    "It's wrong to call us closed source. We have had core features of our OS open sourced since 2004! On SourceForge, even!"

  • Tons of Free code at M$ (Score:5, Informative)

    by troop23 ( 717761 ) on Saturday April 24, 2004 @09:35AM (#8958471)
    I know most /.'s will find this hard to believe but M$ has always provided a huge amount of source code in an open source fashion. Just visit MSDN [microsoft.com] and you'll see of examples of free sample code. Then go to the code center [microsoft.com] where you can find tons of free demonstration applications that you can use to build your own app. For example the company I work for has used User Interface Process Application Block for .NET [microsoft.com] and Exception Management Application Block for .NET [microsoft.com] from their patterns and practices [microsoft.com] site to form the basis of an Enterprise scale business application. Of course the code is generally sample applications for Business purposes. But code like this has been available from M$ since before the internet boom.
    • "I know most /.'s will find this hard to believe but M$ has always provided a huge amount of source code in an open source fashion."

      That's because most /.'s are ignorant of the computing field. :-(
      • And blinded by hate, don't forget that.

        But then, these are the same people who want to maintain copyright control of their own code (GPL) and steal anythign else they feel like they want (Napster, DeCSS and so on).
    • These kind of programs on MSDN are more documentation than programs. The _real programs_ (like Rotor, the .NET engine) apart from this new one AFAIK are all shared-source (ie you _cannot_ re-use the code, only look).
      Yes it's useful, but snippets of code on how to implement hash tables are not the same thing as MySQL (for example).
  • IANAL, but after reading the license it is created to compete with GPL:

    1. It chooses the name "Common" Public Licence hoping that a lot of developers will use it.

    2. It forces source code of the derived work to be licensed by the CPL. i.e you cannot fork a CPL project under the GPL.

    Basically, I see it as the "forced BSD" or "anti-GPL".

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