Python Development Environments? 87
baxissimo asks: "I've played around with
Python a bit, and as a scripting language I quite like it. So I sat down the other day to see if I could use it to make a modest OpenGL/GUI application on Windows. The short story is I gave up. I couldn't get the
Python IDE I had to run--but that didn't stop me. At first I just shrugged my shoulders and said to myself 'Ah, who needs it? I've got emacs,' and then proceeded to waste a few hours trying to cobble together an app that would run before it dawned on me that Python without a decent IDE is definitely not easier to use than C++ with
an IDE. So is anyone out there actually using Python to make serious apps? What tools are you using?"
"I've heard the
wxPython bindings are nice for the GUI bits, so I downloaded those, and pyOpenGL, and
numPy, and
PIL,
etc. The only recommendation I really saw anywhere for an IDE was for boaConstructor, so I got that. Unfortunately it only spit out a useless error messages on startup and died. What I'd really like to start doing is creating C++/Python hybrids, but given that I was unable to successfully debug a pure Python app, I'm wondering what it's going to be like when my bugs might be in either language. How do people deal with this? What tools help you get the job done? If there's nothing free that works, are there any commercial IDE's worth the money?"
Excluding bugs that is (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you might be missing out on some of the most important features of Python (or any decent scripting language these days): it's a high level lanugage, intended to be easier to use than lower-level languages like C/C++. Whining about a lack of GUIs is besides the point.
Once you know Python, and understand some of the GUI toolkits, it's far more productive than C/C++ with similar toolkits. So is Perl, Java, or C# for that matter. It sounds like you don't know Python and related GUI toolkits very well yet, though, which is one place where an IDE can be used to limp along for a while.
In case you haven't noticed, an IDE is really a simple set of tools, which exist for nearly every language already -- though not always packaged together. Get over it: your best toolkits won't come in one package, ever. Any good craftsman will learn to piece together a master's toolkit for any problem set, and use those tools when/where appropriate. IDEs, in general, are the Walmart AllInOne toolkit. Okay if you don't know any better, and the problems are small, but not often suited for anything of scale. Think I'm being a twit? How many IDEs are used in production build environments? (Hint: none)
So back to your baseless productivity point: Python is more productive, in general, than C/C++. This includes GUI work without an IDE, and a lot of server problems that are usually mashed into using C/C++. Why? The language (and libraries) focus on ease of use
GUI work without a GUI builder you say? If it's too tedious for you, then automate it (Python happens to be really handy for that). Most GUIs are built around schemas or specifications anyways -- using a GUI builder only speeds up the tedium (it doesn't solve it). And you'll want to know the GUI toolkit well enough to automate with it anyway (using it in ignorance with a GUI builder is buggy in itself). Don't get me wrong, there are some great GUI builders for Python, but don't rely on it to save you from learning something.
One of the best IDEs I've found (and I've used a lot of IDEs) is the OS, and tangent language tools themselves. For Perl, I use Vi, Gedit, or Textpad for my editor, GladeXML or perl scripts to generate UIs, bash/MakeMaker for my build system, and the other Unix tools to fill in the gaps. I've used some of the Perl IDEs in production environments, and they're all limited somewhere. Don't settle for one tool, as your tools contribute to the quality/quantity of what you produce. You can be in control.
Re:Excluding bugs that is (Score:2, Insightful)
The only accurate generalization about programming is that all generalizations are wrong. Python may be more productive than C/C++ for some kinds of application, but certainly not for all of them. C/C++ is not as "forgiving" as Python, but for some applications, that's EXACTLY what you want!
Hahahahahahahaha ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Unless you're using some subscription release of Visual Studio, VS doesn't even support visual GUI widgets via C++ yet. You've got to use VB, or C#, or J# or some other freakin' sharp to get that.
I think one of the primay points of using a scripting language, bud, is to *get away* from IDE's. IDE's are there because certain large languages and frameworks, or certain requirements for memory management or debugging, are so complicated that using an IDE is a productivity booster. But with Perl or Python, an IDE frequently gets in the way.
Also, if you are building a "modest OpenGL/GUI" app on Windows, well
Or, sit down and learn wxPython [wxpython.org], which has OpenGL support and, dude, is as easy to learn as a GUI toolkit gets. I mean, I'm sorry, but if you have a hard time getting around wxPython, then maybe GUI development just isn't for you. Or maybe you need to be a bit more patient and get out of that Visual Basic mind-mode.
Anyway, it might not be a bad idea to get away from IDE a little. Cutting a little code without IntelliSense, or whatever the hell it's called, might put your mind to thinking about *why and how* things are working the way they are, instead of satisfying the requirements of the pop-up window telling you that you need to supply some widget reference.
Re:Python (Score:2, Insightful)
There's no way in heck I can write debugged, full-feature code in C or C++ as fast as I can in Python. Now, if you want it to run really, really fast, well, that's another story...