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Microsoft Software

Microsoft Launches Visual Studio Express, VS 2005 Beta 541

Posted by simoniker
from the express-to-impress dept.
An anonymous reader writes "At the TechEd Europe keynote today, Microsoft launched Visual Studio 2005 Beta 1. With it, they also released a set of five 'Express Editions' of Visual Studio. These currently free applications offer a student and hobbyist-oriented version of Visual Studio, and are available in C#, C++, VB, Web Developer, and SQL flavors. Each download weighs in at right around 50MB and features tools, documentation, and starter kits. There's been multiple posts and more information on this announcement over at MSDN Blogs, too." Update: 06/29 13:57 GMT by S : A clarification from the Express FAQ: Although the Beta Express products are currently free to download: "We have not announced pricing and licensing and will not do so until next calendar year."
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Microsoft Launches Visual Studio Express, VS 2005 Beta

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  • by jeff67 (318942) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:53AM (#9559498)
    RTFFAQ [microsoft.com]
  • by damieng (230610) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:54AM (#9559507) Homepage Journal
    Heaven forbid that somebody reads before they submit to Slashdot... from the Express Edition FAQ [microsoft.com]:

    Q: "Are the Express Edition products free?"

    A: "We have not announced pricing and licensing and will not do so until next calendar year. For the time being, we can tell you that the Express Editions will be low-cost and will continue to be easy to acquire."
  • by Glock27 (446276) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:54AM (#9559512)
    you visit the Eclipse [eclipse.org] and NetBeans [netbeans.org] sites.

    As an added bonus, both are cross-platform. ;-)


  • Quote: "When you open a Visual Studio .NET 2003 Web project in Visual Web Developer 2005 Express Edition, the project is converted to the new, simpler project layout used with Visual Studio 2005. The conversion process also converts existing .aspx pages, .ascx files and other files into a new format; for example, .aspx pages are converted to use the new code-behind model. You can therefore work with existing projects using Visual Web Developer 2005 Express Edition, but the conversion process is one-way and you will not be able to continue work with them in Visual Studio .NET 2003. Note that the conversion process creates a backup of your project before the conversion begins."

    So here starts the next layer of conversion hell!
  • Re:That's cool (Score:2, Informative)

    by Murf_E (754550) <.murrayegger. .at. .hotmail.com.> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:56AM (#9559535)
    Actually its not free at all M$ says they will release prices next calendar year and they will be "low-cost"
  • Passport required .. (Score:5, Informative)

    by wazlaf (681158) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:56AM (#9559542) Homepage
    I would have loved to at least give it a try, but it requires you to log in using Microsoft Passport! Bad idea! I think many people are not willing to sign up for Passport - even for goodies like this...
  • Not Sure about free (Score:5, Informative)

    by Merlin42 (148225) * on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:57AM (#9559557) Homepage
    ***FROM THE FAQ***

    # Are the Express Edition products free?

    We have not announced pricing and licensing and will not do so until next calendar year. For the time being, we can tell you that the Express Editions will be low-cost and will continue to be easy to acquire.

    # When will the Express products, and the rest of the Visual Studio 2005 product line, be officially released?

    The Visual Studio 2005 family of products will likely be released in the first half of 2005. Microsoft will continue to release Community Technology Previews (CTPs) and beta releases of the Visual Studio 2005 family of products until then.
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:2, Informative)

    by revin (191651) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:58AM (#9559559)
    I totally agree... as I am into java-web-coding I was always a bit of jealous on that gui drawing system. I'm glad Sun had a good look to it while building Java Studio Creator (http://wwws.sun.com/software/products/jscreator/)
    where you can use the java server faces (JSF)framework to nicely draw your work.
  • Important to note... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Aphrika (756248) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:58AM (#9559562)
    ...that they have made only the beta versions of the Express products free. There's no mention of whether the final version's pricing. Personally, I expect them to replace the 'Standard' editions of the languages as they stand currently.

    Interesting to see SQL Server Express 2005. As it's based on the Yukon engine, that it something I'll be downloading and playing with. I have no idea what edition of SQL Server this would replace, possibly Developer in the long run? It's mentioned that it's installed in a full VS 2005 install...
  • Re:That's cool (Score:4, Informative)

    by jeff67 (318942) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:58AM (#9559564)
    It's not free in any sense of the word.

    a. It's BETA, meaning not done and unsupported, not free
    b. "We have not announced pricing and licensing and will not do so until next calendar year. For the time being, we can tell you that the Express Editions will be low-cost and will continue to be easy to acquire."
    c. as previously stated, there is no permission for distributing apps built with it
  • by Timesprout (579035) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @09:59AM (#9559576)
    Each download caters to a specific language, one of the coolest features is to have comprehensive support for multiple language projects in a single workspace. Seems to be editor, debugger, GUI designer. Enough to get you started. None of the nice toys like analyser, test center, visio etc come with them. Nice to see they have included refactoring though, a huge ommission from previous versions.
  • by Bazzargh (39195) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:06AM (#9559645)
    Yes, it's very, very common. Think embedded systems. Think PDAs. Think mainframes.

  • Re:"Hobbyists?" (Score:3, Informative)

    by tehcyder (746570) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:07AM (#9559662) Journal
    You can get Borland development tools under a similar licence (i.e. free-as-in-beer for non-commercial use only).

    And Borland certainly have more interest in cross-platform development than M$.

  • Re:Sweet! (Score:0, Informative)

    by 110010001000 (697113) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:08AM (#9559667) Homepage Journal
    Actually, MSVC++ has the best optimization of any x86 compiler. It certainly blows away gcc/egcs.
  • by jalefkowit (101585) <jason@nOSPam.jasonlefkowitz.net> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:08AM (#9559671) Homepage

    ... the "Standard" editions of VS.NET 2003? You can currently buy these cut-down versions of Visual Studio that only support C# [microsoft.com], VB.NET [microsoft.com], "J# [microsoft.com]" (whatever nightmare spawn of Java that is), or C++ [microsoft.com] for about $100 each. I imagine that when these "Express" products leave beta we'll see them priced at about the same level.

  • by OptimizedPrime (558992) <{moc.liamg} {ta} {mdrawdet}> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:08AM (#9559672)
    No, the licensing doesn't let you make applications and the Web Dev specifically says that you can't put it into production and that a license (I am speculating that you have to pay for) will be available after Beta 2 comes out to be able to put things into production. You're not even supposed to use this version with IIS, only with the internal, local-host only webserver
  • by zhiwenchong (155773) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:11AM (#9559701)
    I'm assuming the Visual Studio Express suite comprises IDEs for .NET, since that's the direction Microsoft is going, big time.

    There are actually two free .NET IDEs out there at moment (with caveats, of course): SharpDevelop (GPL, with GUI builder) [icsharpcode.net] and Borland's C# Builder Personal Editioin [borland.com] NON-Commercial (you can only make non-commercial apps with this).
  • by Bazzargh (39195) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:11AM (#9559709)
    Actually, Netbeans does come bundled with the compiler and debugger:
    http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download .html

    And in the case of Eclipse, the debugger *is* bundled, just not the java runtime or compiler.
  • by tod_miller (792541) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:13AM (#9559718) Journal
    They have a decent UI for the mingw C++ compiler. You can package it together with allegro and some nice game apis.

    Also try sharp-develop at www.icsharpcode.net/ , a free .net c# (I heard this being called C-Pound in the states) ide, that is fairly damn good!
  • by orion41us (707362) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:13AM (#9559721)
    To write/compile and run any of the .NET languages you really do not need VS.net. Visual studio is nothing more then a nice (_REALY_NICE_) development environment and debugger. You can write your C#/VB.net/ASP.net code in notepad and compile with the command line. The compilers and documentation is part of the SDK that you can download [microsoft.com] from MS at no charge ;) as well as distribute your compiled code w/o any royalties (I think).... They really do not advertise this as they want every one to spend $$ on the VS.net but that is completely unnecessary.
  • Re:Not really (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:14AM (#9559723)
    Not to be nit picky, but you're really developing for the Java platform which is the same on Windows and *nix.
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:3, Informative)

    by N0decam (630188) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:16AM (#9559737) Homepage
    My philosophy with MS development has always been, the development environment is great, the libraries suck.

    All the more reason to check out .Net - the dev environment is a vast improvement, and the libraries don't suck as much. (Actually I think that they don't suck at all, but I'm sure that as with any product, there are problems that I haven't encountered yet.)

    Say what you will about MS, they know how to cater to developers - to lure them over to the "Dark Side."
  • by pebs (654334) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:17AM (#9559744) Homepage
    you visit the Eclipse and NetBeans sites.

    I know we are all about open source here, but honestly.. this has very little to do with Microsoft launching Visual Studio Express. Maybe you should mention how you can code C# in Eclipse [improve-technologies.com]. And also mention sharpdevelop [icsharpcode.net] or monodevelop [monodevelop.com]. NetBeans, isn't really useful for .Net development as far I know...
  • by tod_miller (792541) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:25AM (#9559822) Journal
    I once used *twiches* VB and Microsoft Studio and Microsoft Office, Access et al, to write programs for companies.

    Summary of my experiences:

    If 99% of tasks required are 1 day jobs, then yes, you can comlete those tasks in VB, in a cost effective and managemable way.

    If the tasks are more technically involved, or require more advanced security, then you should forget it!

    In terms of the GUI, yes you can indeed make it clean, but perhaps many people muddy good model/view seperation with the way they program in VB (I know I did!)

    Sorry to cite Java, but it is possible to develop a Java [windowed] GUI in as much time as a VB GUI, and the number of excellent and mature packages to solve almost any development task, and the simple and powerful network transparency make it a developers dream.

    When you apply the concerns of distributed applications or server side development, you can only increase the advantages of the J2EE platform.

    Now that doesn't say that VB cannot be used for all problems, but I believe there is a cut off point where a tool like VB no longers becomes effective, and this probably is difficult to define.

    I would also like to point out, that a tool is only as good as the person who wields it!
  • by mausmalone (594185) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:27AM (#9559844) Homepage Journal
    One difference that I'm really annoyed about is that the Express versions don't have support for 64-bit processors. Shouldn't this be a pull-down list on the projects settings menu at this point?
  • Re:That's cool (Score:2, Informative)

    by OptimizedPrime (558992) <{moc.liamg} {ta} {mdrawdet}> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:39AM (#9559949)
    From the FAQ Can I build and deploy applications using the Visual Web Developer 2005 Express Edition Beta 1? No. During the Beta 1 timeframe we want customers to experiment, evaluate and learn with the tool, but sites cannot be used for any public or production purposes. At Beta 2 Microsoft will likely provide a "Go-live license" that will enable developers to put sites into production.
  • by PPGMD (679725) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:42AM (#9560000) Journal
    I can see schools and Universities switching to teach VB and C#, so their students are ready for the "real world".A lot of people in my course complain about this, paticularly after internships. When people don't have to pay $600 for Visual Basic, I think its uptake might increase, just a little.

    Haven't been to a University with a Microsoft Campus agreement? They get almost all the Microsoft Software for free.

    Need the Windows 98 disc, goto the Library and check it out for a day. Need Visual Studio 6, bring 2 CD-Rs to class, by the next class they will burn you a copy.

    Heck the University I went to handed out Office 2000 (actual Microsoft discs with unique CD keys) during orientation.

  • Re:Sweet! (Score:2, Informative)

    by yohan1701 (779792) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:43AM (#9560004) Homepage
    I agree though that VB is the best RAD language i've seen

    Have you used VB! Sure you can create an app with few textboxes and a couple of button quickly. But if it actually has do something it quickly becomes bloated and you our showing and hiding forms and knee deep into win32 api calls and ... gah! the horror!

    Sorry VB flashbacks.

  • Re:about time (Score:3, Informative)

    by matthew.thompson (44814) <matt@actua[ ]y.co.uk ['lit' in gap]> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:44AM (#9560022) Journal
    As opposed to requiring that your PC isn't runing the Windows Firewall

    From the installation notes for the Express web development package

    Windows XP SP2
    Issue: On a computer running Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2), the Web download will fail, as the firewall is enabled by default.

    Workaround: Disable the firewall and check to make sure the Proxy settings are enabled. This can be checked by opening Internet Explorer. On the Tools menu, click Internet Options, and then click the Connections tab. Click LAN Settings. The Automatically Detect Settings check box should be checked. If it is not, check it and click OK. Then run Setup again.


    Considering the problems Microsoft are having with Windows security this just screams bad planning to me. Yes I know I can get this installed without having a problem due to having a hardware firewall but it's not going to be much help to Joe Home-User who doesn't know what he's doing 100% and blindly follows Microsoft's instructions.
  • by MAXOMENOS (9802) <maxomai AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:48AM (#9560074) Homepage
    ...try SharpDevelop [icsharpcode.com], a .NET IDE for Windows (only) that's GPL.
  • Re:You're lucky (Score:3, Informative)

    by miu (626917) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:49AM (#9560091) Homepage Journal
    The namespace matching problem in the debugger is common to all debuggers. Most have the ability to pretty print mangled names after you dump them, but no ability to match a namespaced symbol in the first place. This holds true for every version of gdb 4.0-6.0 and the versions of dbx that come with Sun Workshop (or Forte or whatever the hell they call it this week) through version 6.0 update 2.

    I'd love to use namespaces as they were intended, but because of the debugger problem I just use static members of a struct to emulate a namespace.

    VC actually has pretty decent namespace support, they added (working) support for the 'non-.h' std-c-lib headers existing in the std namespace before anyone else.

    C++ is a big language with lots of runtime requirements, I don't think any compiler or library vendor could be said to have the whole thing correct (and working with all support tools) according to the latest standard yet.

  • by XMyth (266414) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:54AM (#9560187) Homepage
    Damnit...sorry about the lack of hyperlinks

    http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html [joelonsoftware.com]

    http://members.microsoft.com/partner/competency/is vcomp/empower/default.aspx [microsoft.com]

    This offer is for companies only however...so my original reply is probably not valid as I doubt you could register one company twice in this program.
  • Re:That's cool (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @10:56AM (#9560222)
    commercial != closed-source
  • SSDD (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @11:00AM (#9560278)
    This is SSDD. MS has released free betas of Visual Studio on more than one occassion. Anyone thinking this portends any type of movement to free development tools is off their rocker. This is all about getting free testing, and exposing their tools as early as possible so developers will transition to the new tools as quickly as possible, thus generating revenue for MS.
    This is not some nefarious plot to replace open source tools. MS already has that plan in place - they make good, easy to use tools, and provide good documentation for their tools. Sure, open source tools are great for experts and those willing to spend the time learning them - but MS has been infinetely smarter than the Open Source Movement in this one regard. They make their tools easy to learn and use - thus promoting quick uptake by students. Students that eventually become professionals, some of whom eventually become managers.
    The open source movement is good at tactics, but sucks at long term strategy. This includes the advocates and users. Everytime somebody says, "RTFA", or says something akin to "People who don't understand (insert Open Source product), are stupid or lazy", they're just hurting OS. MS will glady hold that person's hand while taking their money, mindshare, and putting another little hurt into the long term efforts of OS. OS being dumb about this kind of stuff, is, unfortunately, also SSDD. OS has many products with great technical merits - but too many suffer from poor user friendliness or craptastic documentation. Most developers don't care about OS politics, or being leet because of mastery of some difficult tool - they just want to get the job done with the fewest headaches.
    Open Source (at least some of it) is great. But they need to acknowledge that MS has some strengths which OS definitely needs work on. It's fine to bash MS, they definitely have major problem in some areas, but it smacks of hypocrisy when the OS moemvent doesn't acknowledge and fix it's own non-negligible faults.

  • Re:Sweet! (Score:3, Informative)

    by ckaminski (82854) <[ckaminski] [at] [pobox.com]> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @11:10AM (#9560389) Homepage
    I have to agree. If all you are doing is talking to an Access or SQL database and building forms, VB is perfect. Anything outside this regime, and you spend more time reinventing the wheel. And if you don't have a database backing you up, you spend a LOT of time reimplementing basic data structures, like multi-dimensional arrays, hashmaps, lists, etc.

    I like it because ADO and VbScript (ASP) allow me to create business applications quickly and reliably. But I hate it because I spend a lot of time reimplementing things, or working around a broken include system.

  • Have you used VB? (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @11:13AM (#9560426)
    Clearly not.

    You can use VB for complex, large scale, object-oriented projects.

    You will find it used in this way in many large corporations, banks etc. to provide front and back-office services that tie into backend mainframe and network systems.

    Ok. So your experience of application development may be restricted to lashing a few forms and buttons together - but don't let that color your world!
  • From the EULA (Score:0, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @11:15AM (#9560445)
    "NOTICE: THE SOFTWARE IS TIME SENSITIVE AND IS DESIGNED TO CEASE FUNCTIONING ON MARCH 1, 2005." Also, some of you guys might be interested in this part also. "(c) Internet-Enabled Features. Since this SOFTWARE is a prerelease version, some of its Internet-enabled features are turned on by default. Those features collect information from your computer and send it to Microsoft. The default settings in this version of the SOFTWARE do not necessarily reflect how the features will be configured in the commercially released version. For more details about these features, what information is collected, and how it is used see http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=25076. If You choose to install and use this SOFTWARE, You authorize the automatic collection of information from your computer by these features. Microsoft may use this information solely to improve our products or to provide customized services or technologies to You. Microsoft may disclose this information to others such as hardware and software vendors in a form that does not personally identify You (e.g. to fix application compatibility problems). This information will not be used for marketing purposes."
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:3, Informative)

    by Xentax (201517) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @11:28AM (#9560583)
    AFAIK, VS 2005 should run on XP 64 in compat mode, and will *compile* for AMD64 and IA-64.

    Xentax
  • by awitod (453754) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @11:43AM (#9560729)
    If you want to go completely free and use a nice IDE, try #develop [icsharpcode.net]. It isn't as nice as VS, but it is astoundingly nice for a free (as in speech) IDE.
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:5, Informative)

    by MaestroSartori (146297) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @12:01PM (#9560906) Homepage
    I didn't want to mod you down for this, so thought I'd post separately:
    DevStudio is intractably bound to developing apps that run with MS technology.

    Wrong. I'm currently (as in I've alt-tabbed over from it to post this) using it to develop for PS2, using the SN Systems gcc-based toolchain and makefiles. It is trivial to use plug-in compilers, debuggers etc. with VS6 and VS.Net. May not be trivial to write them or interface them, but I didn't get the impression that that was what you meant...
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:3, Informative)

    by Malc (1751) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @12:10PM (#9561001)
    I'm glad I'm not the only one annoyed by this feature of the MSDN library! I explicitly didn't install the Windows CE related stuff... all it does now is prompt for the installation disk to load those pages. Grrr. Filtering isn't as easy as it used to be either.
  • by IntlHarvester (11985) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @12:39PM (#9561361) Journal
    I just looked into this program ("Empower ISV"). In order to qualify you need to:
    1) Look like a software company when they check you out
    2) Ship a product and have it certified for some version of Windows (anyone know what this costs?)
    3) Get an employee MCP certified.

    So, it's not for everyone.

    As for the high price of the "Universal" package, I think MS feel they need to price it in the same range as BEA and IBM's enterprise development packages (which list for $10 grand or so). However, if you are small shop and give them a ring, they arent cutting you any deals.

    You can also get the a C# or C++ only version for about $100 each -- not much more than this "Express" version and probably sufficient for many folks.
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:2, Informative)

    by Saige (53303) <evil DOT angela AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @12:53PM (#9561562) Journal
    For example the ability to [...] rename a class and all references to it throughout a file.

    Taken care of in VS2005 - and it'll actually rename throughout an entire project. There are a lot of features along these lines that have been added in, which I've been grateful for these past couple months when I've been using it.
  • by robinjo (15698) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @01:12PM (#9561807)

    I started programming way before Windows and used to do only basic. When Visual Basic came, it was awesome. I ended up doing even some pretty big projects with VB3. You didn't even notice that it was "only" made with basic as I knew how to write fast code. Learned all the ugly tricks and invented a few more while I was at it.

    Problems started when Microsoft released VB4. The changes were so big (vbx->ocx, 16bit->32bit) that I realy couldn't compile my software any more. One of our employees went through the trouble with a smaller project but mine was pretty close to impossible. So I thought I'd rewrite and make a new and better version at the same time. I guess I chose VB5 or 6 at that point.

    To speed up VB6, I decided to write DLLs with C. That's a lot more efficient when handling strings. What I noticed was that VB stores strings as 16 bit unicode. However, when the string is passed to a DLL, VB converts it to 8 bit Ansi. When an array is passed, the whole array is converted. It was awfully slow. Worse was that there was no way to change that. After one week of frustrations I decided to give Delphi a try.

    Now I have done almost only Delphi for 4 years. Delphi is pretty much as easy as VB but it produces way faster code. The best part is that you can go as deep as you want when you want it. You can write your own controls, the object model is beautiful, and everything just works and makes perfect sense. The difference is really monumental.

    When I look back, I can't imagine how stupid I was for using VB earlier.

  • It's very common (Score:2, Informative)

    by chochos (700687) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @01:22PM (#9561914) Homepage Journal
    It's very common, AFAIK. I usually develop on Mac and deploy on Windows, or deploy on Solaris, or deploy on Linux. Sometimes develop on Linux to deploy on Linux. I also have developed on Windows to deploy on Windows. I have developed on Linux to deploy on Windows. Lately I have done all this with Java and .NET but before that I did it with C and Objective-C. Cross-platform has always been common and it's becoming even more common because of Java and .NET; you can even build the app on a platform and just run it on another one (no need to do a final compile on the deployment platform).
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:3, Informative)

    by RevAaron (125240) <<moc.liamtoh> <ta> <noraaver>> on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @01:47PM (#9562245) Homepage
    particularly the GUI-drawing system

    From my experience, this is the most commonly sited perk of VB. It's something that you've been able to do for darn near any language for a long time- GUI designers really aren't new, and VB doesn't even have the best one available.

    The frequency that I see people cite the GUI designer as the major benefit to VB makes me think that most folks- especially the types of people on /.- seem to be stuck in the past, coding all of their GUIs manually. I know that the development setup is generally some years behind for most Linux developers compared to your average coder on Windows or Mac OS X, and that there are fewer good and polished tools on Linux. But still- there are free GUI designers for GTK+, FLTK, Qt and Motif. And for just about any other toolkit and language. Do people not use these?

    That said, tools like VB and RealBasic (with which I've more experience than VB) are RADs for more than just a GUI designer. Using Glade for a C/GTK+ app won't make you as productive as a seasoned VB coder for simple app development, but it will shave off some time spent coding the GUI programatically.

    But there are options, and some darn good ones on, for Linux:

    Prima [eu.org]: a new GUI toolkit for perl- including a really nice RAD GUI builder- for Linux, OS/2 and Windows.

    Squeak Smalltalk [squeak.org]: Runs on just about every platform. Uses a seperate GUI toolkit, but affords a huge amount of power and ease of development.

    RealBasic [realsoftware.com]: A cross-platform VB clone for Mac OS Classic/X, Windows and Linux. *Really* nice. Costs money, but it's worth it.

    RunTime Revolution [runrev.com]: Has a HyperTalk-like language and runs almost anywhere. ...and others. But those are some that embody the feeling of a RAD IDE like VB. That is, they do more than just add a GUI designer.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @02:09PM (#9562510)
    That would be Visual Studio .NET 2003 Enterprise Architect [microsoft.com] Über-Premium Extra Crispy Platinum Millennium Lo-Carb Edition.
  • by Foresto (127767) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @02:40PM (#9562878) Homepage
    They also offer a free download of Visual C++ Toolkit 2003 [microsoft.com], which looks to be a command line compiler and basic (non-mfc) libraries.
  • Re:Sweet! (Score:3, Informative)

    by Decaff (42676) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @02:41PM (#9562890)
    I would assume that your smalltalk ide couldn't handle every case of edit-and-continue.

    It can, and I do mean every case. The whole Smalltalk environment is a continuous series of executing processes, of which your 'application' is just one.

    You guys need to give up looking down your noses at anyone who uses anything but (LISP/Smalltalk/insert other escoteric language here.)

    I don't look down at other languages - in fact, I don't do Smalltalk development these days.

    There is a reason all those languages have not been popular. They really don't address real world development issues.

    Actually, Smalltalk was widely used at the end of the 80s, and still is used for real world development. For a time, it was touch-and-go whether Smalltalk or C++ would be the primary OO development language. Its a highly practical language for many situations, and is certainly not elitist. Unfortunately, the Smalltalk industry seemed to decide that high-pricing, awkward licencing, and forking the language was more important than widespread use, so it almost died out. Its better today, with good free implementations, like Squeak.

    People use Microsoft development environments for a reason. It is because the complete package is there: an excellent dev environment, excellent help and online support, an installation system, top notch compilers and wide industry use.

    Yes, I agree, these are good features of it, but I still feel strongly that people who don't have experience of something 'elitist' like Smalltalk at its best are not in a position to judge what is missing from something like Visual Studio. They think what they have is first-rate. Its good, but not that good.

    Things are getting better, in terms of IDEs - IBMs VisualAge range was superb (after all, it was written in Smalltalk!), and Eclipse with its ability to execute and debug arbitrary code fragments is looking good, but they still aren't up to what many of us used years ago in terms of power and flexibility. At least, that's what I feel.
  • Coding Contest (Score:2, Informative)

    by Zaffo (755234) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @02:52PM (#9563025)
    Channel 9 is hosting a coding contest [msdn.com] making use of these new Express editions. Six winners get an Xbox, a one-year subscription to Xbox Live, and a copy of Halo 2 (once it's released of course...)
  • by metasyntactic (322999) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @03:34PM (#9563511)
    C++ Express will indeed compile down to native as well as to IL.

    -- Cyrus (http://blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn [msdn.com])

  • No evidence of that (Score:2, Informative)

    by sheldon (2322) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @03:59PM (#9563783)
    Our company is doing .NET. We've been in contact with vendors and consulting companies such as Borland, Thoughtworks and so forth who have done a lot of Java in the past.

    They're all moving into the .NET world.

    I see no mass migration away from Microsoft, but I do see an extreme amount of interest from Java development shots to look at .NET.

    These Express tools are obviously intended for the hobbyist market, to help build mindshare, in other words to compete against PHP and mySQL and such.

    Anyway, you're simply making an argument by assertion without evidence.
  • by KarmaMB84 (743001) on Tuesday June 29, 2004 @05:47PM (#9565095)
    The Express versions appear to be .NET pimping tools with anything that anyone else would need stripped out.

E = MC ** 2 +- 3db

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