Cloudscape Gains Momentum

A reader writes: "There's been a lot of bits written recently about the growth of Open Source databases; as well as IBM's patent gift, as their release of the Java database Cloudscape. There's a contest running on SourceForge.net around Cloudscape; download and run with it." SF.net is part of OSTG, like Slashdot.

Re:Java database ?

[Eric Giguere]

Hey, I like Java as much as anyone, but if you're looking for a fast, multi-platform, zero-administration database be sure to check out SQL Anywhere Studio [ianywhere.com]. The Developer Edition is completely free and runs on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X, Netware and most flavors of Windows, including CE/PocketPC. See the description of what's in SQL Anywhere Studio [ianywhere.com] for details. (Note that some of you may remember SQL Anywhere as Watcom SQL.)

Eric
Listen, folks: JavaScript is NOT Java! [ericgiguere.com]

I've written a review of this

[Simon Brooke]

As it happens I've already written a review of cloudscape; the google cache of it is here [google.com].

Brief summary: get the Apache version [apache.org]; reasonably full SQL92 syntax; performance OK; a bit lacking on security.

Re:Eh..

[Jackdaw Rookery]

I think you may have missed the point of the post, the story is advertising Slashdot jumping the shark.

Well OK maybe not, but this is a fluff piece at best, self advertising at worst. Plus the prize is US only so it cuts out a lot if interest right away.

Nothing to see here, move along.

C++ Databases and Open Source

[plasticmillion]

I was struck during our search for a database for our product by the paucity of systems that fulfill our requirements:

1. Small and embeddable
2. Open source
3. Native C++ interface

It seems like practically all the databases that fill the first two requirements are written in Java and use it as their primary API. Finally we settled on Sleepycat's Berkeley DB XML, which meets these requirements and has a native XML interface to boot. The one potential caveat is that they use a hybrid license that lets users "opt out" of the GPL by paying a fee, after which they can distribute their product as closed source. Personally I think this is a great thing (always nice to have more options and you don't have to pay anything if you product is also open source), but I'd be interested in the views of the /. crowd.

Re:Wrong language, wrong thing.

[EkkiEkkiShiwaddle]

There are lots of things that Java is perfectly suited for. Databases are not one of those things.

I'm a Java developer, and have been almost from the very start of Java. While I tend to agree with you at first, I would like to point out some benefits of using Cloudscape.

Over the years I've had a few (small, hobby) projects, where I really felt the need for a database which did not need to be fast nor did it need to be huge. So I tried Cloudscape. And while it isn't the fastest around, it gets the job done.

The easiest part is that you can just bundle it with your application, without writing a single line of code!

I've tried MySQL, but I still need to install it prior to being able to run my application - no need for that with Cloudscape.

But, granted, it is not the fastest out there. If I need a *real* database, I just use Oracle.

Purpose

[barryman_5000]

Best thing about cloudscape is small embedded databases for java programs rather than making calls to a huge mysql database. You may say that java is slow but anyone using cloudscape for more than 20,000 entries may not be thinking that through. Cloudscape will also be useful for java programmers to program a database using java.

2 points you are wrong on.

[tod_miller]

Write a program in cpp. Run it. a million times.

Now write a program in Java. Guess what, Java is not an interpretted language. It doesn't use some fluffy brightly coloured play-doh type bits, it uses regular ones, like cpp binaries.

Java compiled the byte code into executable form. Then it does some on the fly optimisation.

Java VM's can out-perform cpp over n cycles, where n is sufficient to overcome Java start times (seconds)

Secondly, FFT or a DCT in Java or cpp, I haven't seen benchmarks, but there are right and wrong ways to do it in both languages.

Thirdly, Databases, noone said they had to be FAST. Now remember Java isn't slow. Most databases on this earth spend thier time knitting and throwing stupid errors.

A few have to deal with mind-GOOGLING amount of data.

So there you have it, if you want a very nice Java db, try mckoi

http://mckoi.com/database

great support, open source, and works like a charm! I use an IBM DB server remotely, and an embedded mckoi instance for such things as prefs and other niceties. (as well as local work on data)

There you go.

Re:C++ Databases and Open Source

[Anonymous Coward]

SQLite ( www.sqlite.org [sqlite.org]) is smaller than BDB, in the public domain, and written in C. And unlike BDB, it includes a very capable SQL layer.

Code footprints:

• SQLite: less than 250KB
• BDB: about 450KB
• Derby: 2000KB jar file

Re:C++ Databases and Open Source

[defMan]

How about using SQLite [sqlite.org]. It's a C library (native C++, does that mean C is ok?) which provides a self-contained database engine. No need to run a DBMS.

Re:C++ Databases and Open Source

[Pedersen]

You might wanna check out SQLite [sqlite.org], which is in the public domain [sqlite.org]. It matches all of your requirements, and then some, I think.

Re:Java database ?

[PartyBoy!911]

IBM uses the cloudscape database as backend to a lot of products like Worksphere Portal.
They normally recomend DB2 for production but one of the latest products "Workplace Services Express" can only be used with the embedded Cloudscape.

The product is intended for SMB and scales upto 1000 users. And this is for Groupware/Document storage etc. http://www.lotus.com/products/product5.nsf/wdocs/w orkplaceservicesexpresshome/ [lotus.com]

Re:But that is not embeddable

[mod_critical]

I have found the ability to embed the database in the application exceptionally useful for a recent J2EE deployment we worked on.

I liked the idea of just being able to plop the org.apache.derby.jdbc.EmbeddedXADataSource class into my connection pool and have a database. I like that I can tell the suits that the database is built by IBM and that's all I hear about it. And I like that once this venture grows and starts to make more money I can switch fairly seemlessly to DB2.

It probably should not be considered a security measure, but there is also a certain level of security gained since there is no actualy database server that can be accessed seperately from the application server

Re:Wrong language, wrong thing.

[MarkWatson]

Common Lisp is fast and efficient for numeric calculations (*) - I have used it for large neural network training runs, FFTs (I found a library -did not write it myself), etc.

While Java and Python are the languages that I most frequently use, CL is a powerful tool - try it!

(*) with compiler type directives

Re:Wrong language, wrong thing.

[Empty Threats]

Trolling about Java and Lisp at the same time? Isn't that a little bit like ASKING FOR IT? Fast Fourier Transform is actually one of the traditional benchmarks [cliki.net] for Common Lisp, the Gabriel series. Now run along and play in traffic.

Re:Wrong language, wrong thing.

[s1234d]

Actually, modern Lisp implementations can be faster than compiled C. Some Lisps run like lightning on numerical stuff. See here for an example:
http://home.comcast.net/~bc19191/blog/040308.html

Re:Java zealot's response

[Ryosen]

Oooh, lookie! It's a trolling AC. Ok, I'll bite.

Java *is* a mature language celebrating its 10th year in 2005. J2EE, as the sum of its collective parts (EJB, Servlets, JSP, RMI) has been around for 7 years. By industry standards, these are "old-timers".

Java is memory "conservative" (on a server), requiring far less RAM than the .NET platform. Depending on the application server that you implement, you will find varying degrees of performance. Try not to give in to the uninformed mindset that the Java runtime included with the SDK in 1996 was the end-all be-all of Java compilers. That FUD went out of style a long time ago along with bell bottoms, the Dodo and civil liberties.

Java *is* platform-independent. My firm has developed applications running on various different *nix and Windows platforms that have been in production for over 4 years. Any platform-dependent implementation (e.g. via JNI) should be abstracted far enough away from the core application that, in the rare case that it is required, it can be easily replaced. To not design your application in such a manner is foolish and irresponsible.

Business has been very successful on the Java platform for years and much ealier than .NET and ASP.

Or are you suggesting that everything would be better off if it were just writtin in Perl?

Silly troll.

Cloudscape is great for automated unit testing

[MagicMike]

I was having a hard time maintaining a distinction between unit testing and integration testing with some of my back-end code until Cloudscape came out.

Now, instead of needing to have a container up, or have a database running or similar, I can embed cloudscape (which is quite small, really), set up a group of in-memory tables with the state I need, execute a unit, then check the tables for correctness and destroy the database.

Shazam, database unit tests - no external dependencies.

A lot of people are mumbling and complaining about Java and databases and speed, but apparently they've missed the whole Moore's law thing. I'm betting they either haven't tried it or they have some over-inflated view of how fast their applications need to be (or how much it costs to get fast hardware vs. their time).

This stuff easily meets the "fast-enough" test for lots of uses, unit testing being just one of them.

Apache at the ASF

[dirkx]

Yes it was - see the Derby [apache.org] project in the Incubator.

Beeing in the incubator does not yet mean it is a full blown ASF project - but that the ASF is in the process of ensuring that there is a healthy community around it, that all the legal paperwork, trademakrs, grants, copyrights and other interlectual rights are sorted out, that commiter license agreements are on file for each developer, etc, etc..

Once that is all in place (and getting a healthy long term community is hardest - the rest is just endless grunt work and digging through code and legal paperwork dotting i's and crossing t's) it'll leave the incubator and be a full blown process.

Feel invited to join and make this happen ;-)

Dw.