An Open-Source Java Port To iPhone?

An anonymous reader writes "With the first anniversary of open-source Java coming up November 13, a Sun official believes the project could bear a fruit much sought-after in the Java community: a Java port to the Apple iPhone. Apple has not released a version of Java capable of running on the popular device. But Sun's Terrence Barr, technical evangelist for the Java mobile and embedded community, believes Apple's plans to release an SDK for iPhone in early 2008 may result in the open-source phoneME version of Java ME winding up on iPhone."

Apple & Java don't play nice anymore

[Templar]

Apple can't even commit to Java 1.6 for OS X -- I think you're being a wee bit optimistic.

Ready for business.

[rice_burners_suck]

I can't tell whether it was Apple's intention from the beginning to deliver the SDK for 3rd party development or if that's something that happened in response to industry-wide criticism, but either way, it is crucial to the acceptance of the iPhone for large business. A port of Java is icing on the cake, although that may become more important with time.

Speaking of being ready for business, the rhetoric across just about all media is that the Mac is a great computer for home use but isn't ready for business. Can anyone shed some light on why this is the widespread perception? The Mac, coupled with Mac OS X Server, can do just about anything that a Windows or Linux network can do, and even if it can't, you can always install some Windows or Linux servers to take care of whatever loose ends are left over. Couple that with iPhones capable of 3rd party development and Java, and it's a wonderful system for business.

Re:Why?

[burris]

Given that the only popular Java application on Mac OS X, Azureus, is universally regarded as being slow, bloated, and ugly, I'd say the GP's impression is not at all outdated.

Java = Lower quality apps?

[RudeIota]

Don't get me wrong - Java SHOULD have been on the iPhone and its almost nothing but a positive thing...

BUT... Since Java hasn't been an option, people have been writing and porting native applications to the iPhone, even without the SDK.

Assuming we can all agree that usually native > Java, so I'm afraid this may lower the overall quality of available apps. Understandably, developers don't want to write native applications for every single device. Let's be honest though - Java is a shortcut - and primary reason anyone chooses to develop with it is portability and portability alone...

Not having the option of writing apps in Java equals more native apps - which I think most people would prefer. I think this was Apple's intention. I also believe it is silly for them not to embrace Java, but I do believe this is a very real consideration.

It all depends

[0xdeadbeef]

Will the iPhone's SDK be open, or will it be closed?

Java is a hole in the "security" of devices, in that it allows the execution of arbitrary code outside of the device's native "security model". And I use scare quotes because by security, they really mean control, and by security model, they mean control over who is or isn't allowed to produce software for the device, and run software on the device. If the Java runtime were trusted, then every Java application has the same rights as the Java runtime.

But Java has also been used by those who are legitimately concerned about security, because the virtual machine does actually make the execution of injected code very difficult. And by supporting the runtime natively, it actually gives you better control over what executes and who can execute it.

But that makes it easier to limit the features available on the devices, so you can claim to support third party software and still put up an impenetrable wall between applications and the useful, built-in capabilities that the carriers want to trick customers into believing are special "services" they must pay more for. Bluetooth, GPS, camera, and even networking have found their APIs stripped from Java on certain carriers' devices.

If Apple produces an open SDK, then putting Java on the iPhone is simple matter of porting it. Apple doesn't even need to be involved.

But if Apple uses code signing to control who is and isn't allowed to release software for it, you can forget Java ever appearing, because then anyone could write software for it. They don't seem to be at all interested in supporting Java themselves.

Re:It all depends

[Anonymous Coward]

If the Java runtime were trusted, then every Java application has the same rights as the Java runtime.

This is FUD, complete and utter rubbish. JVM provides very fine grained control of what code running inside it can and cannot do. That includes file, network and peripheral access. That stuff was in Java since day one, wake up and smell coffee.

Google 'Java security manager' or 'Java sandbox'. This can be done on per application basis, you can have more and less trusted apps running at the same time with different privileges.

Re:Java = Lower quality apps?

[quanticle]

Not having the option of writing apps in Java equals more native apps

No. You forget that there's a third option - not releasing the app for the iPhone at all. Without a Java interpreter, application providers may decide that the marketshare of the iPhone is too small compared with the marketshare of phones that support Java, and decide not to release their applications for the iPhone. In other words, not having Java apps equals fewer apps, not more native apps.

Common Java apps, OS X and Mobile

[Savage-Rabbit]

Given that the only popular Java application on Mac OS X, Azureus, is universally regarded as being slow, bloated, and ugly, I'd say the GP's impression is not at all outdated.

I will admit that large Java GUI apps in particular can be slow and buggy and I can't say I can remember a whole slew of Java powered consumer applications that are popular among normal OS X users. I do however use quite a lot of Java apps at work. A few applications I can remember off the top of my head are development apps like Eclipse, Intellij, NetBeans, I have also on occasion used a of Java powered LDAP navigator, a whole collection of SAP utilities, Oracle utilities of various kinds... the list goes on. If I recall correctly I read somewhere that the new Lotus Notes 8 will be Java powered. There are probably a few more Java apps that I use but haven't noticed that they are Java apps since when are properly written and packaged, Java GUI apps can be quite hard to tell apart from regular OS X apps. It would certainly be a lot harder to use the Mac in a corporate environment without Java apps. I can certainly see why Java would be a good choice for quickly bolting together Java GUI Apps on Mobile OS'es and from a business point of view the 'write once run everywhere' cross platform aspect of Java has the same obvious appeal on mobiles as it has on desktop computers. I have seen anything from small programs like expense tracking software to things like fully fledged 3G streaming media players implemented in Java on Mobile Phones.

Re:So what happened to the Apple Java luvin'?

[Blakey Rat]

Speaking as a Macintosh user (and not a developer) Java does, and has always, sucked on Macintosh. I've yet to find a single Java app worth running, and it's only recently that Java applets on websites have actually worked without crashing the browser-- timely, now that most websites have ditched their Java applets.

Re:Couldn't be more wrong

[Blakey Rat]

I can't speak for the popularity of Limewire, but it's just as slow, bloated and ugly as Azureus. (Well, ok, probably less ugly-- but definitly slow and bloated!)

The other examples you cite are all programmer's tools, so I can pretty much guarantee they're not "popular" among anybody except perhaps software developers. But software developers on Mac have XCode, so there you go.

Re:Apple & Java don't play nice anymore

[ClassMyAss]

I don't know that I can agree that everyone should just calm down - a lot of people moved their Java development over to OS X because Apple made a huge deal about what a fan-freaking-tastic platform OS X was to code Java on. But 11 months later than the Win/Lin release? Come on now...that kind of delay does not indicate that they are taking developers very seriously, especially since said developers have been explicit ever since the ridiculous 1.4 delay about the fact that being up-to-date with Win/Lin is crucial to them. If they are not putting enough resources behind this to get the new version out in a timely manner, then it's pretty clear how much they care about the customers making the requests, and I think these customers are right to be a little pissed.

Mac is a great platform, but if you're trying to stay on the cutting edge in Java, you need to be running Windows (Linux, meh - bugs always take a lot longer to disappear from the Linux JVMs than the Windows ones, so...). Lucky for me, most of my work is 1.4 targeted so it doesn't really matter.