Targeting PocketPCs With Mono? 90
That's What She Said writes "I am a long time Mac user and, as most people like me, I have some particular problems with Microsoft technologies. I need to develop applications for the PocketPC platform (Windows CE and Windows Mobile), some simple data collection applications for barcode-enabled portable data terminals. Every device manufacturer on the market offer SDK's for .NET, so I believe this is the way to go. I already tried Microsoft Visual Studio and I am having serious problems using the IDE. I simply don't understand it quite well. My programming experience comes from PHP and JavaScript, where all I needed was a simple text editor and to keep my work as tidy as I could. So, it seems that a full-fledged IDE is kind of scary to me or Visual Studio is not very good for beginners. I also want to keep my costs low and free alternatives are welcome." Read on for a bit more (below) on why TWSS is thinking about Mono as a development environment, and is seeking advice.
That's What She Said continues: "Through some research, I've found that my options are quite narrow. Rapid development environments are available, but cost way too much or have some terrible limitations. Also, I have not found many forums on PocketPC development that really have useful information. Google isn't helping. Some directions would be good.
I have been looking at Mono for some time and MonoDevelop seems a hell of a lot simpler to use. I even started playing with it. It runs fine on my Mac.
I tried Google again to find some information on writing .NET Compact Framework applications with MonoDevelop, but I didn't find anything. It seems Mono implements the Compact Framework, but there's not much more information about this. Except for one blog post from 2006, I didn't find anything else.
So, I ask: is it possible? Is anyone doing this with any success? Is there any problem I should know beforehand?"
Unhelpful... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
The VB6 IDE is terrible, and I don't see why anyone would prefer it to ANYTHING.
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:1)
One thing I noticed, though, is that every new version of Visual Studio is incompatible with some previous technologies:
* If you want to write apps for Windows CE 4.2 or PocketPC 2002 with
* If you want to write apps for Windows CE 5.0 or Windows Mobile 5.0, you need VS2005, but you can't use it to write apps for the older versions of CE/Mobile;
* I still have not checked how VS2008 deals with this, but I know I can write Windows CE 5.0 apps with it.
To make myself clear: I need to target CE 4.2, CE 5.0, Mobile 2003 and Mobile 5.0. The apps will be developed specifically for one of these, but I need to be able to write apps for all of them.
Can I use only one IDE or will I need several versions of Visual Studio?
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:0)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:0)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Unhelpful... (Score:2)
Qt (Score:3, Interesting)
Qt has ports for windows, windows ce, mac, and linux.
if you develop nicely enough you can make the app in a mixed dev environment and just do final testing and deployment onto windows ce. who knows since the qt port is cocoa and iphone uses cocoa you could end up with a single app for all platforms.
Re:Qt (Score:3, Insightful)
If you care about your user interface, you should get the application up and running on a real device ASAP and always use it as your guide. Emulators are very handy for when you're doing a rapid compile-run-code cycle during the early stage of developing a particular feature, and debugging.
Re:Qt (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Qt (Score:0)
You're over complicating things (Score:0)
You admit that almost all of the devices that you've looked at support
Re:You're over complicating things (Score:0)
Or try Java (Score:0)
http://www.comp.lancs.ac.uk/~fittond/ppcjava.html [lancs.ac.uk]
Re:Or try Java (Score:0)
Re:Or try Java (Score:0)
Please think of the Sun employees.
Re:Or try Java (Score:2)
Re:Or try Java (Score:2)
The JIT compiler of the next iteration of java (that isn't quite out yet) is totally sick, so that probably will bridge the gap by a lot, but
Re:Or try Java (Score:2)
Just Bite the Bullet (Score:3, Informative)
You can also find tutorials to help get you started here: http://netcf2.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com]
The only issue using Sharpdevelop is that I don't believe that you can use the Microsoft PocketPC emulator which means you have to keep compiling, uploading, and remote debugging your code.
Visual Studio includes the emulator and would be a good tool for you to learn. The jump from using notepad to a full IDE programming suite can be intimidating at first but it will really help your career as a programmer.
Re:Just Bite the Bullet (Score:1)
Because I'd be using a device with a specially designed keyboard, a barcode reader and some other niceties (or problems, depending on how you look at it), I have to test everything on the PocketPC to be sure.
I am looking at these links right now. I'll get back later when I digest all the information.
Re:Just Bite the Bullet (Score:0)
You know, there are plenty of alternatives besides Notepad and VisualStudio. VisualStudio is not the measure of a professional programmer. In fact, I wouldn't hire anybody who only knows VisualStudio and Notepad.
As far as I'm concerned, VisualStudio is by far the worst of the major programming environments.
Oh, that's just mean (Score:2, Funny)
Mono? (Score:0)
No (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm a Windows CE developer, and I doubt this would work very well, even if it is possible. Part of the point of using Visual Studio is testing your software and your deployment on the emulator beforehand so that you don't end up bricking an actual device and having to do a hard reset. Mind you, if you aren't comfortable using an IDE, I'm guessing testing and deployment aren't high on your list of priorities...
There are some alternatives:
But really, if you're writing serious software for Windows CE, you're going to have to loose your inhibitions and learn to use Visual Studio.
Re:No (Score:2)
Re:No (Score:0)
- Spend hours screwing around with setting up Cygwin
- Not use a visual debugger
- Not use Microsoft's headers and any functions in any of their DLL's
- Write your windows message handler loop from scratch
- Dick around with copying your executable to real devices using ActiveSync or a flash card
Honestly, this would be a massive waste of time - Microsoft provides excellent, reasonably-priced tools for professional developers. If you can't figure out how to use them, hire a professional developer to cut the code for you.
Re:No (Score:0)
Re:No (Score:3, Informative)
If you can fix it with a hard reset it's not a brick.
Re:No (Score:0)
Re:No (Score:2)
No, he's going to have to LOSE (not LOOSE) his inhibitions. Sorry to nit-pick, but my stats homework is kickin my ass right now and I need to vent (10 Monster "BFGs" are also running through me right now, so that could be a factor too).
Debugger (Score:2, Informative)
Mono can only be spread between PocketPCs by... (Score:3, Funny)
Mono won't be much different... (Score:1)
Personally, I have found Visual Studio to be the single Microsoft product I actually like -- the 'inline' documentation is a major timesaver -- but to each his own...
Re:Mono won't be much different... (Score:2)
Visual Studio is one of the very few good Microsoft projects.
Re:Mono won't be much different... (Score:1)
Now, I think SharpDevelop looks like a copy of VS. MonoDevelop is quite different, from what I saw.
Re:Mono won't be much different... (Score:2)
MonoDevelop is the better fork of SharpDevelop. They both are endeavoring to hold down Visual Studio and bloodily rip it off.
If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework .. (Score:2, Interesting)
(a) C# on handhelds is really, really slow. We're talking a perceptible lag when switching between screens; I had to rewrite the automatically generated code to speed up form loading.
(b) Visual Studio (2003/2005 both) is even slower. It always seemed to take at least 2 seconds to respond to clicks, and as for startup time, I was fooled several times into thinking that my PC had crashed, even after using it for weeks. It's just pathetic.
I switched to using C++, wxWidgets and SQLite for my next app on a handheld, and I'm so happy we did. BTW, both apps are targeted at handhelds with barcode scanners (Symbol), and there are C based SDKs available.
Re:If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework (Score:2)
I've found C# on the devices to be no problem at all. Another post mentioned that they too used the barcode scanner and that they had to write c code to handle it and then pInvoke it. I wonder if the scanner might have been what slowed you down?
Finally, on your (b) item: are you talking about the emulator or Visual Studio itself? I find it is definitely faster to debug directly on the device. The emulator can be pretty slow.
Re:If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework (Score:1)
Re:If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework (Score:2)
It did have bugs in the past that made it slower than it should, and in certain very specific situations it will go to a crawl, but it shouldn't be common place...
Re:If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework (Score:1)
Re:If you want sloooow apps, use Compact Framework (Score:0)
friendly advice (Score:2)
So let me give you a few pointers:
1. Visual Studio is your (only) friend most of the time, so live with it.
2. Use the barcode scanning C APIs and p/invoke them, or write in C. Most of the barcode vendors
Confusion (Score:2)
Mono is more of a framework. Sure it's got an IDE associated with it, but it's primarily an open source version of
You could potentially write something for Mono and port it over to
Re:Confusion (Score:1)
The dumbest idea I heard today. (Score:0, Troll)
In all likelihood, you will be the only person in the whole world programming for PocketPC using MonoDevelop on a powerbook.
Does that sound like a good idea?
I mean, being a slobbering anti-Micro$oft slashbot cretin is one thing, but that's just asking for troubles.
Re:The dumbest idea I heard today. (Score:1)
I was aware that I could get an answer like yours. I am reading every single post for ideas, and most of them are really interesting.
I was sure someone would rate this kind of post as a troll. But, most incredibly, I am wasting my time answering your post. Does THAT sound like a good idea?
Don't waste your time answering: it sure doesn't. It's not, in any way, a good idea...
Re:The dumbest idea I heard today. (Score:0)
Re:The dumbest idea I heard today. (Score:1)
Re:The dumbest idea I heard today. (Score:0)
Re:The dumbest idea I heard today. (Score:1)
My needs are not that urgent. I already have hired some developers for other similar projects, but they keep disappointing me. Most of them can't deliver the apps on time and, when they do, the interface is not well designed.
I disagree with you on the "non-trivial" part, as I see most data collection applications as a kind of crippled CRUD (Create, Retrieve, Update, Delete -- I think you know it). The classes for barcode reader access (supplied by the device manufacturers) are pretty straight forward to use and the documentation is good.
As I stated originally, my main problem is with the IDE's that are confusing to me.
Use Tcl ? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Use Tcl ? (Score:2)
Of course.. (Score:2)
Anyway, while I feel its stupid, most barcode scanners pocket PCs have built in tools/features/whatever that lets the scanner act as an input device for any application. A place I worked for a long time ago made a PHP/Javascript application that would read the input of the barscore scanner and then parse it on an html form. Thats really simple to do, would use your skillset (minus the fact that Pocket IE sucks balls, even compared to IE 5...so you'll have to scream at the javascript a bit until it does what you want), and you wouldn't have to deal with Visual Studio.
Of course, once you see what all your competitors (if its a product you're making) are doing when using "real" tools (be it
Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/9780596514822/ [oreilly.com]
Best C#/Visual Studio book from what's in my opinion the best series of teaching books around right now.
Here's the link to free download of Visual C# Express.
http://www.microsoft.com/express/vcsharp/ [microsoft.com]
That's not a trial. It's a free reduced feature version of Visual Studio 2008.
Re:Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book (Score:2)
Re:Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book (Score:2, Interesting)
Most of experience in programming come from PHP, because that's the language that I really used to write something useful. I used to work with web site development, and I can say I wrote some very nice custom designed content management systems (very simple ones, but still I think they're nice). Just so you know, I know what a class is and I can write OO code.
I started with BASIC on a Commodore 64 in 1986, when I was 9 years old. I used Visual Basic 2.0 or 3.0 in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember) and, at the time, developed some Windows (3.1) front-ends for DOS programs. I also can write some simple C programs (a little more than a "Hello World!"), but never tried anything really fancy.
My real problem is not with the languages. I can get to understand the basics of any language, I guess.
Re:Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book (Score:1)
I already knew about the Express editions not working with PocketPC development, but this link to the Visual C# Express page saved my life.
On that page, there's a link to the Beginner Developer Learning Center [microsoft.com]. The tutorials are quite good and are serving me well.
Maybe I should get the courage and dive head first in Visual Studio.
Re:Head First C# best intro to Visual Studio book (Score:2)
VS and Windows - Good Choice (Score:0)
Let first say that developing mobile application using Visual Studio is a piece of cake. I can't imagine what kind of hell I would be in if it were not for VS. I would also like to congratulate you on picking the most reliable and consistent mobile environment (considering your choices). My experience has been in the c#, compact framework, for the last three years and doing it for a Fortune 500 company. As the lead architect for the application I work on, we evaluated J2ME and a few others. None of them, absolutely none of them, come close to the Window's Mobile environment. Window's Mobile Environment includes: Windows Mobile (OS), Visual Studio, SQL Server CE, ActiveSync, and a collection of SDKs for barcode devices.
Now, before the freaking flame wars begin, let me just say there are some things needing to be considered:
1) Who will be supporting your application (developer skill sets needs to be considered)?
2) What is the performance expectations?
3) How reliable must it be?
4) What communication needs are required?
5) What devices must it run on?
6) What peripheral devices will be used (Bar Code/RFID)?
While the Microsoft Window's Mobile environment will offer you the flexibility to target a broad range of devices, it will be in YOUR (Y-O-U-R) best interest to limit the number of vendors and model types. Not because of the
Next, let me say ActiveSync SUCKS!!! Ok, so it is good for grandma and your aunt Betsy; but, it is crap for a corporate environment where one machine might be the host for several devices.
Lastly, let me say that you will need to be VERY, VERY, VERY, patient. Developing, testing, deploying is much slower when you are targeting PDAs.
Oh, and I almost forgot... Get a PC with some serious RAM and CPU (multicore).
Problems with English? (Score:2, Funny)
Do you realize how this parses? "Because most people like me, I have problems with Microsoft technologies." Possible conclusions:
A) Problems with your native language portend problems with any complicated subject.
B) It was a serendipitously insightful comment.
B) It was a Freudian slip from a Mac snob.
D) Anyone who tries to read something into it has too much time on his hands.
Re:Problems with English? (Score:1)
Let's try to get this right:
"I am a long time Mac user and, like most Mac users, I have some particular problems with Microsoft technologies."
Is it any better?
Now, if you like me better now, I think my over-inflated-mac-user-ego will be satisfied.
You nailed it: english is not my native language.
Someone, please mod parent +5 Funny...
Re:Problems with English? (Score:2)
Actually, I considered the possibility that English wasn't your native language, and based on everything else you wrote, I decided you were a native English speaker. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been so picky. So, congratulations on fooling me, and armed with this new knowledge you will fool even more people
Re:Problems with English? (Score:1)
And I have to thank you, for pointing out one of my mistakes when I decided to ask the
Summary (Score:-1, Flamebait)
Waahhhhh! This C# is hard. It's waaaay harder than that PHP page I did in my high school computers course. And the IDE has all this stuff I don't need, like a debugger. What the hell is that for? Like I'm going to have bugs in my code. I just run it through the spell check in my text editor and it usually works fine.
So please, Slashdot, tell me how to string together a bunch of shitty, half-working open source projects that were never intended to work with Windows Mobile. Because that will be a much better use of my employer's time and money than spending $200 on a Visual Studio license.
Re:Summary (Score:1)
Re:Summary (Score:0)
He does have a point, (and real information which you have used other comments responding to trolls asking for). Try to ignore his personal insults and listen to his content.
(I will de-sarcasm it for you since you seem intent on ignoring its useful content due to it coming from an AC)
C# is no harder than PHP, and the IDE has useful features, like a debugger. The features would only aid you in development if you spent the (relatively short) time to learn to use them. Don't assume that you won't use the features when you learn what they are for, like a debugger: not everyone writes perfect code.
Why not just pay for VS, it isn't too expensive (relative to the (time)cost of looking at other FOSS/cheaper solutions) when the hardware you have to work with natively supports the features VS is granting you.
My own thoughts on this topic:
I have to say; after my time at Uni learning C, Java (being forced to do a single subjects on each of haskell, prolog and PHP - though we were just asked to use PHP, they didnt teach it) I have to say; that Visual Studio (2005/2008 is what I have used) are quite possibly the best IDE(s) I have ever seen.
Sure I haven't listed many IDEs, but the vast majority of my Uni time was spent in a vanilla text editor, which I feel puts me in a similar position as the OP.
Like most IDE's VS has the project management stuff I could do without; if you more or less ignore it and just use basically the built in text editor for code, you will find that it will make things about a thousand times easier. Intellisense has spoilt me rotten. The debugger is *really* powerful...
To use a Mac'ism, VS for me 'just works'. I can't even fathom what part of it you don't like, it was that simple to get started with for me.
Re:Summary (Score:1)
I do appreciate your post, though. It's really insightful.
I know my question was not a very good one. Still, I wanted to hear from people and I dared to ask.
Thanks for your post. You're writing anonymously, but not cowardly.
A few advices (Score:1)
Should be doable (Score:4, Informative)
I used a port of the DotGNU project as an on-board compiler [sourceforge.net], and I think that I used Mono on Linux. (It may have been DotGNU, I don't recall.)
I believe that I ripped the DLLs comprising the compact framework off the device, and then used that to compile when on Linux. I think that there was a switch to turn off linking against the system DLLs, and I just linked against the DLLs from the device. Once the exe was built, I was able to run it on Linux using mono (since they had implemented WinForms, I could just run it straight), or I would simply copy the exe to the device via an SD card and then I could run it from there.
I never finished developing the app, so I never got around to figuring out how to package a CAB, but that should be trivial. I know that there are Linux apps to create CAB files, so it should just be a question of finding one buildable on the Mac and figuring out what to put into the manifest.
Re:Should be doable (Score:2)
Thank you (Score:1)
I am following the links, reading carefully and looking for more information.
It seems I'll have to deal with my shortcomings and learn how to use Visual Studio. At least, most of you told me that's the wiser thing to do.
I'll keep looking back here, searching for good answers, but I have some links to follow now.
Think of the Users! (Score:0)
You made the right choice (Score:2)
BTW I'm also a mac user, but I do most of my development on windows because of how good Visual Studio is. XCode is getting there, but it still has a way to go - I don't envy the people at Adobe that had to build a huge app like Photoshop using it...
Why develop for Windows Mobile at all? (Score:2)
I'm developing a product for their new iPhone SDK and so far it's going better than I'd dared hope in terms of my learning the environment easily and getting up to speed. The first week was pretty baffling and then it started to come together and by the third week I was feeling very comfortable.
I was using a conventional text editor before I started using Xcode and I can say xcode seems to be pretty easy to learn, straightforward and quick.
One thing I really like about the iPhone development system is that it's a compiled language and so it runs very fast compared to other environments I've used.
While some Slashdotters like Windows Mobile, I have noticed that its market share seems to be shrinking thanks to iPhone, and certainly in terms of design and overall attractiveness there is no comparison. I checked out a Windows Mobile magazine about a month ago, and it was worryingly thin and there were a lot of complaints about it crashing and about iPhone being less versatile but a great deal more fun to use.
With the SDK iPhone will be nearly as versatile as Windows Mobile and I think WM's market share will continue to skid. If you want to develop for a non-Apple platform I'd make it Blackberry since it is similar to iPhone in that it has a large number of very loyal users.
Hope that was of interest.
D
Re:Why develop for Windows Mobile at all? (Score:2)
For a consumer device, the iPhone is the gold standard. Of course you have to lay out more gold than I as a consumer am willing to part with, but that's just me... From a purely tech perspective it's very nice.
Re:Why develop for Windows Mobile at all? (Score:2)
It's actually quite amusing that Apple itself uses those Symbol devices or something very like them in their infamous chic retail stores. Must drive Steve nuts since they are impressive devices but look more like something the Army would buy than an iPhone.
With the 3G iPhone coming soon, it may be that 2.5G iPhones will get to a more reasonable price, or people will try to sell their antiquitated 2.5G phones used. So maybe you'll get your wish and see cheap iPhones soon.
D
Re:Why develop for Windows Mobile at all? (Score:1)
Cost (Score:1)
"How do I serve webpages from NETCF?"
http://www.danielmoth.com/Blog/2005/02/how-do-i-serve-webpages-from-netcf.html [danielmoth.com]
"2. [...]
c) Port the ASP.NET MONO implementation (not aware of any *public* project that has achieved it, but there are some guys that have done it (ended up at ~1300KB) and if they want to go public with it I am sure they will - I cannot say anything else, I'm afraid)"
If your app really is that simple and cost is that much of an issue Embedded Visual C++ v3 & 4 are both 100% free. They are also very feature-free & may thus be more to your liking that Visual Studio.
Otherwise the best way to get Visual Studio cheaply is a free copy at a local user group launch event, or the "Heros Happen Here" even that's running now (though that's only Visual Studio Standard Edition): http://www.microsoft.com/heroeshappenhere [microsoft.com]
Depending on your licensing situation, the student Dream Spark program is offering the professional version for free: https://downloads.channel8.msdn.com/ [msdn.com]
Also look at the "Spark Your Imagination" program for a great deal on not only Visual Studio, but also Platform Builder & actual hardware: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/products/spark/ [microsoft.com]
Please help suffering Mac users (Score:1)
An alternative.... (Score:0)
In the long run, these lightly used OSs tend to be dead ends. a Java based product will have the most longevity.
I have no interest in it but found this interesting. Look at: http://www.mobiforms.com/