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Comments: 154 +- Developers: Copyright Status of Thermodynamic Properties? on Sunday July 26 2009, @07:08AM
Posted
by
kdawson
on Sunday July 26 2009, @07:08AM
from the consider-crown-copyright dept.
from the consider-crown-copyright dept.
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orzetto writes "I work at a research institute, and programming models of physical systems is what I do most of the time. One significant problem when modeling physical processes is finding thermodynamic data. There are some commercial solutions, but these can be quite expensive, and to the best of my knowledge there are no open source efforts in this direction. In my previous job, my company used NIST's Supertrapp, which is not really that expensive, but is written in Fortran, and an old-fashioned dialect at that. As a result, it is a bit difficult to integrate into other projects (praised be f2c), and the programming interface is simply horrible; worse, there are some Fortran-induced limitations such as a maximum of 20 species in a mixture. I was wondering whether it would be legal to buy a copy of such a database (they usually sell with source code, no one can read Fortran anyway); take the data, possibly reformatting it as XML; implement a new programming interface from scratch; and publish the package as free software. Thermodynamic data is not an intellectual creation but a mere measurement, which was most likely done not by the programmers but by scientists funded with our tax money. What are your experiences and opinions on the matter? For the record, I am based in Germany, so the EU database directive applies."
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FORTRAN (Score:5, Funny)
</sarcasm>
Re:FORTRAN (Score:5, Funny)
Integer*16 I
Real*4 Still
Real*4 Think
Integer*16 In
Real*4 Fortran
C you insensitive clod!
Parent
Re:FORTRAN (Score:4, Informative)
Huh? Recent versions (ie, in the past couple decades) of Fortran are really very decent for scientific calculation, in many respects better than C. There's a ton of computational chemistry software, for example, written primarily in modern Fortran.
Parent
Re:FORTRAN (Score:5, Informative)
I used to work solely in FORTRAN for simulation work. The big advantage of Fortran90/95 over C is that the compilers are heavily optimized for doing iterated operations over every value of an array. So for say, fluid dynamics, it really is the best. I suspect you might be able achieve a similar speed in C, but that you would have to hand optimise instead (ugh).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
NIST - Public Domain (Score:5, Informative)
If the NIST program is the product of the work of US Government employees it is in the public domain. I would not be surprised if many of the commercial closed-source programs for the same purpose are based on it. In any case, tabulated data is not protected by US copyright so someone in the US could certainly do as you suggest.
FAQ claims copyright (Score:2, Informative)
The FAQ [nist.gov] claims that the US government has a copyright on the material. This could be possible if the material was not directly generated by the NIST itself --- for example, they paid a contractor to generate it and it is considered a "work for hire".
The facts themselves probably can't be considered to be under copyright.
OTOH, I agree with a previous poster that you should consult a lawyer if you want to actually do anything which isn't sheeple-ish with the data.
Re: (Score:2)
> This could be possible if the material was not directly generated by the NIST itself ---
> for example, they paid a contractor to generate it and it is considered a "work for hire".
Which is why I wrote "if". Anyone who felt motivated could probably find out via FOIA requests (which also could get you unlicensed copies of the data).
Re:FAQ claims copyright (Score:5, Informative)
The EU database law specifically does not protect foreign databases unless that foreign country also creates a database a law and establishes mutual protection. The US has no such protection, in fact it seems no country outside the EU has established reciprocal database protection. It should be possible to do this open source project based on data from the US or from anywhere outside the EU.
The FAQ [nist.gov] claims that the US government has a copyright on the material.
The factual data in that database cannot be protected by copyright, it is not protected as a database in the US, and is not covered under EU law. The only copyright they could claim on it is either if it contains creative images or creative text or the like, then those particular elements could be protected, or they could perhaps claim a copyright on the creative arrangement and formatting of the data in the database. Both of those issued can be avoided.
What can be done is use this database and read out the needed factual data elements and then re-write it into the database for the open source project. Purely factual text-fields such as the name of an element or compound or whatever can be copied, just be careful not to copy any images or free-form text fields such as descriptive text or explanatory text. Then write the data out in your own arrangement. The best thing to do there is to arrange the data in some strict alphabetical or numerical order - there is no creativity and no copyrightability in that sort of unique ordering. That means not only storing the records in alphabetical order, but also order the data elements within each record in name-of-field alphabetical order. It might even be a good idea to rename any fields that care reasonably open to custom naming. There is no need to rename a field like "name" or "address" or "phone number", but a field like "work contact number" could easily be called "work phone".
The best way to go about it would be to create a mostly-empty, but functioning, database before even looking at your intended source material, that way by definition there is no copying of the formatting of the database. Once there is a functioning database design then the factual data elements can be copied from the source to fill the already-designed database.
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Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I wasn't expecting to find the correct answer to a legal question here on Slashdot, but, there it is. /thread. Too bad I don't have any mod points.
One nit, though, just be careful with "renaming a field" as a solution ... that could still get you nailed as a derivative work. I do like the idea of building the framework from scratch, and only then populating it with the data.
Re: (Score:2)
This could be possible if the material was not directly generated by the NIST itself --- for example, they paid a contractor to generate it and it is considered a "work for hire".
'They' in this case would be the American public. If the American public paid for a 'work for hire' then the American public owns it. Thats not to say that they necessarily have 'rights' to it.. but your arguement as it stands doesnt seem to qualify.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I am a federal worker and I oversee some contracts that involve writing Fortran codes for simulating nuclear reactors. That is not quite right. You need to consult the Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR), Chapter 27. Specifically, see
27.404-2 Limited rights data and restricted computer software.
and
27.404-3 Copyrighted works.
http://www.acquisition.gov/far/current/html/Subpart%2027_4.html#wp1041836
If you read those sections, and take the time to really understand the definitions they use, and read the a
Re: (Score:2)
Its possible that the contractors retain copyright, or they licensed someone else's code (these tend to block open source releases), but the government itself can't have copyright under US law, regardless of who wrote it.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
OTOH, Maybe they just ripped off the Koreans.
Looks like the same info to me. [korea.ac.kr]
(But IANAP)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
It appears that there is an exemption to the public domain status which applies here:
15 U.S.C. Â 290e authorizes U.S. Secretary of Commerce to secure copyright for works produced by the Department of Commerce under the Standard Reference Data Act.[8]
Re: (Score:2)
It means you need to have some sort of creativity.
So if I take tabulated data and arrange it in a pattern that I think looks neat, I can copyright that. But if its just arranged alphabetically, I can't.
Not even close (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know if you're trolling or just grossly misinformed, but that's not even close to correct. Lyrics are the copyrighted creative works of the person/people who wrote them. "Changing one word" does not allow someone else to then distribute the lyrics legally. That would be considered a "derivative work," the creation of which is a right provided to copyright holders under copyright law.
IRTTALIYJ (Score:3, Insightful)
I Recommend Talking To A Lawyer In Your Jurisdiction.
HTH
Re: (Score:2)
I on the other hand would start by reading the EULA/Terms of Service. Maybe twice.
Wrote code in ForTran 77 for six years (Score:4, Funny)
Let me tell you something: God speaks ForTran, and the guys who translated the bible from ForTran to Hebrew did a really really bad job.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Let me tell you something: God speaks ForTran, and the guys who translated the bible from ForTran to Hebrew did a really really bad job.
Indeed. For example, here's the FORTRAN source code to Genesis [ucla.edu].
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If this guy can't handle reading the FORTRAN code I seriously doubt he is capable of re-inventing it in a 'new' language. FORTRAN is not that hard to understand even "old" dialects.
Where did commercial solutions get data from? (Score:3, Insightful)
I would assume that it would be difficult to sell a commercial solution for scientific purposes unless it is based on already documented and accepted data. Basing your scientific work on calculations made by a commercial solution with homegrown data would make it difficult to openly document your method to other scientists. So why not find the published version of those data instead of lifting them out of software?
But what do I know? I am an engineer, not a scientist.
In my work I do a lot of calculations of water and steam properties, and the available software I know of is strictly using the calculation methods published by IAPWS. So if I wanted to, I could buy the IAPWS documentation and make my own software.
It Probably Wouldn't Be Legal (Score:5, Informative)
A database is copyrightable. See http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html [bitlaw.com]
Re: (Score:2)
But the data in it isn't, if it's something like themodynamic properties.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merger_doctrine_(copyright_law) [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
A database is copyrightable, but the applicable case law from when I practised (YEARS AGO!) was the phone directory - it was held to be sufficient that the copier rearranged and reorganised the information to provide a "mere spark of creativity".
Re: (Score:2)
Or, if the database is itself non-creative in terms of its selection and arrangement of uncopyrightable information, the database would be uncopyrightable as well. This is the problem that telephone white pages ran into in Feist; they contained all the listed numbers (where the phone company doesn't decide which numbers are and are not listed), in alphabetical order by the last name or name of business associated with the number. That selection and arrangement was non-creative. OTOH, a directory of your fav
Re:It Probably Wouldn't Be Legal (Score:5, Interesting)
I do not know about this exact database, but many scientific databases are hand-curated and extensively reviewed. Many do not include every measurement published in the literature, but carefully and judiciously select those data points deemed, by expert opinion, most reliable. Thermodynamic databases do not contains "facts" per se, but measured data points which may or may not be close to the facts. The editing and review process, which is quite an investment, does often create a solid foundation for copyright. These databases are not just a routine business, like a reformatted dump of the data from a telephone company.
Parent
Unreadable? (Score:2)
"no one can read Fortran anyway"...you must be new here. It certainly wasn't designed to the standards young engineers expect today, but given the limitations of processors back in the 60's to early 80's, it served its purpose. I did my first college CS class in Fortran back in '83. Anyone can write illegible code, but with a little effort, one could write fairly readable Fortran.
A mere youngster... (Score:2)
I worked on my first Fortran Prog in 1971 on a Honeywell DDP-124.
It was for controlling a Boeing 727 Flight Simulator.
I can still read fortran as can many people here. I'd bet many could read Cobol and Algol if pushed. Coral-66 baffles a lot of people though.
It will be a very difficult project (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't find my copy of Supertrapp at the moment, but as I recall there is some strange wording in the license. It's definitely NOT public domain as asserted by the uninformed.
It's also not tabulated data. It's a collection of equations and empirical constants embedded in what may be the worst code I've ever seen.
It may be easier to track down the original papers and work from those, though that too is difficult as lots of the original work was published in obscure journals.
FWIW I am very comfortable w/ FORTRAN and prefer it for serious numerical work (default choice is C). I'm also quite skilled at interfacing FORTRAN to other languages.
I'm interested in working on such a project and have quite a bit of experience w/ the problem, though only limited experience w/ Supertrapp because it is so bad I tended to avoid using it unless I absolutely had to. Please send me an email so we can discuss more. rhb acm.org
Reg Beardsley
Re:It will be a very difficult project (Score:4, Informative)
I tend to work in the atmospheric sciences, where, as one might guess we work with microphysical processes and thermodynamic data. I would second the recommendation that working from the original, authoritative publications would be a good approach. If you're well-versed in the field already, you're familiar with the seminal works. If you're not, your job is bigger than you realize, as programming for a scientific project is rarely just finding equations and re-coding them, or finding a database of physical constants and calling them. You've got to understand where in the domain in question they come into play and use appropriate equations and parameterizations.
Fortran, even Fortran-66, is rarely unreadable. However, it often is written like a short story in a local dialect. The author has a method and style, and you have to understand it, or at least become conversant with it, before reading and understanding the flow of the code occurs. I should point out that this is really not different from any other language. Fortran, however, has been maligned because its roots were not in object-basis. Fortran 90 and Fortran 95 both, however, comply with the OO paradigm. The inherent problem is, CS departments often don't teach Fortran, and their faculty will tell you how horrid it is. Why? Because their discipline is COMPUTER science, not, say, solid earth geophysics, and they're conversant with a number of languages.and feel they can pick the best one for the job. The geophysicist, on the other hand, spent his time learning how and why those pesky tectonic plates move around, something the computer scientist never really studied unless, maybe, he took a rocks-for-jocks class and got really interested. Rather than mastering C, C++, Java and C#, the geophysicist learned just enough Fortran to get his work done, and proceeded down a different path. Since Fortran ("FORmula TRANslation") was developed to help discipline scientists transform their equations to operable code, this really makes sense.
My first computer initiation was using Fortran (Fortran-II) on an IBM 1401 while I was still in junior high school. My first formal course in programming used SWIFT, BASIC and SNOBOL, over the course of a summer while in high school. Virtually every course in college I took (I was not a CS major, but could/should have been from my transcript) was in Fortran (plus a pair of assembly language courses) because the choices were Fortran, Cobol or assembly. Imagine, if you will, not having a "modern language around, and having to code decent I/O or even decent APIs with that choice.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Ok, so maybe my judgement of Fortran was a bit too harsh, Supertrapp was the only larger project in Fortran I have ever looked into... until my eyes started bleeding, that is.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Items created/published by the U.S. government are in the public domain at least in the U.S. I'm not sure if the rights are granted abroad as well.
However, items created under a contract to the U.S. government may or may not be in the public domain. There's a section of US law that companies have to invoke in their contract or the software license regarding U.S. government "limited rights" to keep their code or other work private. On the other hand, NIST DATA shouldn't be copyrightable in any case, although
Free Software vs. Genuiness of Data (Score:4, Informative)
People using this NIST data do it because it has NIST sign on it, so they don't risk being dependent on tabulated values from not exhaustively verified source. If you're rewritting the source code, you should take care to establish means by which users could check that data are unaltered with respect to what NIST servers contain. If you work for renowned institute, that should be easy, just store the database on your server and sync it with NIST, along with sources of data cited at NIST website.
As it comes to Fortran programming, it's optimal language for scientific computing. Modern dialects have some of the power of C (allocatable arrays, long subourtine names, free format code, modules, interoperability with C), but, what is preferable in scientific computing, programmer isn't encouraged to tinker with machine-specific stuff. Many existing codes are written in Fortran, e.g. powerful LAPACK library and many computational chemistry packages, so for many physicists/chemists/engineers Fortran is the only language they know and care of. Moreover, Fortran in recent years has gained parallel-programming functionality thanks to OpenMP (it's provided with features eqivalent to that in C/Cpp).
Which database? (Score:2)
It looks like they are selling some database
http://www.nist.gov/srd/dblist.htm [nist.gov]
And providing others for free,
http://srdata.nist.gov/gateway/gateway?dblist=0 [nist.gov]
Which one are you after? Something like this?
http://www.metallurgy.nist.gov/phase/solder/solder.tdb [nist.gov]
I imagine if you derive approximation formulas to the figures, and publish them packaged as software you
would be able to license it whichever way you liked - sounds "transformative" to me. Might even qualify as pr
You're making things harder for yourself (Score:2)
I think you need to get over your dislike of Fortran and make use of the many good and modern Fortran compilers available to you, both freeware and commercial. Any of them has got to be a better solution than f2c - if you think Fortran is hard to read, that's nothing compared to the cryptic output of f2c, and then you're locked in to using the buggy and archaic f2c support library.
I am not familiar with the application you're using, but the limits you describe are almost certainly not due to the coding lan
buy a copy of such a database (Score:2)
Sounds proprietary to me.
Crowdsourcing? (Score:2)
Maybe you could crowdsource for the data points?
Write your open source software to work with the data, and set up a website or something where people can contribute data points? There would obviously by no guarantee on any particular data contributed, but you could have some provision to flag data as wrong or dubious and store multiple conflicting values until you sort out the conflict somehow?
-
Just put a wrapper around it (Score:2)
You are not the first to encounter this kind of problem. The traditional answer is to not mess with the Fortran, but to put a wrapper around it in the language of your choice and leave the Fortran internals alone.
From your description of the limitations of the Fortran code, I get the strong sense that this would be the best approach for you to take. It can be very difficult to tease out the reasoning behind some of those archaic Fortran constructions: they tended to be blends of methods to deal with hardw
Don't take anyone's advice here unless... (Score:2, Insightful)
Definitely copyrightable (Score:3, Interesting)
Empirical models of thermodynamic properties are definitely protected by copyright. There is a high-value market for these models, and different models of the same thermodynamic process will evaluate differently so it is a valuable creative product rather than a mere description of reality. For fields where tiny improvements in efficiency generate big cost savings, you want to use the most accurate model available where "most accurate" will be a function of the use case.
Thermodynamic property models are not measurements of reality, they are mathematical models of a physical process derived from empirical data. They are what you use to predict reality when it is not possible or practical to measure it. Turning the empirical data points into continuous functions is a creative step and the value of the creative step is in minimizing the divergence between the model and reality over as broad a range as possible. There are companies that specialize in producing and selling ultra-accurate thermodynamic property models.
Be very very careful (Score:3, Insightful)
I warned the project manager that sure go ahead and use the data as a basis for programming but not for the production program.
A couple of months later, the competitors lawyers appeared and (cough) out of court (cough) settlement.
Never did find out how much it cost "my" software house...
In the end they had to employ a gaggle of impoverished undergrads to build their own DB.
So, be very very careful. It might be a good idea to *ask* if you can re-use the data - often it's possible for non commercial purposes...
Andy
What database? (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Anything produced by the United States Federal Government (which the National Institute of Standards and Technology certainly qualifies as), is in the public domain.
That's what he meant.
Re: (Score:2)
Supertrapp uses pre-Fortran 90 syntax, meaning identifiers have 6 letter at maximum. This makes it sure that complex code will never be readable, because you can only use acronyms that are way too short to be clear. Point taken, however, that this is a fault of the implementation rather than the language's.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that the biggest problem isn't intellectual property, but the people who administer it. I don't think that the demand is particularly great. As such, there isn't a great incentive to release it freely. There are costs to administering such a large DB. Furthermore, nobody wants their name on a database of all the fundamental properties because in that data there are bound to be mistakes.
You are looking at the liability issue for the creator/admin, the supply side. The bigger liability problem is on the engineer, demand side.
Something that is missing from this discussion, is some Chemical Engineer specific knowledge that I can attempt to provide. The whole point of a "steam table" and similar products like discussed here, is there is no accurate formula for vapor pressure at various temps. The simplistic linear equations taught in high school don't work at the extremes, or don't give acc
Re:FEED ME (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a legal question. The answer to that question might seriously complicate your life if you get it wrong. What would possess a person to ask this of Slashdot instead of contacting a lawyer? Better yet, why would a German expect a USA-based Web site to be familiar with the nuances of German (or EU) copyright law? I'm trying to picture a situation where I'd contact a German online forum to ask for legal advice pertaining to American law and I just can't come up with anything.
I suppose next we'll see an Ask Slashdot which says "hi, I'm a diabetic and I forgot how much insulin I am supposed to inject myself with, please advise." And I'll have to scroll down significantly to see a partly-buried comment where someone finally suggests that perhaps he should be asking a doctor...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
slashdot knows more than most IP lawyers. You have to remember, lawyering is essentially about either telling you what case law precedent has established (like don't rob banks), or arguing for your side, not about "truth" or "right and wrong". Most lawyers are more the type that will take the money, then figure out how to argue the way you want... they don't do good with "advice" not tied to rulings in court. Ask the right question and you'll pay the lawyers a bunch less money... nobody wants THAT!
In rega