iPhone SDK Agreement Shuts Out HyperCard Clone 610
Halo1 writes "Demonstrating it's not just about Flash, Apple has officially rejected for the first time another alternative iPhone development environment following its controversial iPhone SDK Agreement changes. Even though RunRev proposed to retool its HyperCard-style development environment to directly expose all of the iPhone OS's APIs, Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal. The strength of RunRev's business case, with a large-scale iPad deployment project in education hinging on the availability of its tool, does not bode well for projects that have less commercial clout. Salient point: at last February's shareholders' meeting, Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it.'"
DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.
People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.
But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?
So they created a product, based on another (Score:3, Insightful)
product which pretty much everyone knew wouldn't get approved with the changes ... and now we're surprised?
This might have been news when the changes were introduced, now its just:
Duh, you knew you were treading on thin ice before you even submitted it.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:1, Insightful)
Microsoft would never be that stupid. That's why they owned most of the PC market right up until the PC became irrelevant. At this point the only thing that matters is if your platform "does the web"
Re:So they created a product, based on another (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm quite sure it took longer time to create that product than 2-3 weeks. That was when Apple announced the change. Adobe didn't know anything about it either, since they just before released their new Flash suite that allowed you to cross-compile to iPhone. Those who bought Adobe's product for that reason must love it now, and theres nothing Adobe can do about it.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.
Well, good thing this isn't about desktop OS's, then, isn't it? In fact, coding for OS X is free and unrestricted, just as with Windows. On the other hand... You know that for Windows Mobile 7, apps need Microsoft's approval, don't you?
People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.
But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?
Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!
Find something better to do (Score:0, Insightful)
Your incessant first post trolling in every story about Linux or Apple is extremely tiresome and I find the way your moronic threads often come to dominate the comments to be disgusting.
Find something better to do with all your fucking free time, sopssa.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft [albion.com], second, I don't think this move is cool either, but it's totally legal.
Jobs wants 'hypercard' on the iPhone? Yeah right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it'.
This being the same Steve Jobs that effectively killed the original Apple Hypercard back in 2000?
Maybe that should have read, "something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, but we would have to create it, otherwise it clearly would not be insanely great..."
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod that guy down, 100% wrong - this is not about coding desktop apps, which are totally unrestricted on OS X.
This is about phone development, where MS and Apple's approaches are markedly similar.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.
This article is about what are essentially embedded devices, which Apple (for better or worse) sees as a different set of use cases for consumers and, as a consequence, developers.
Re:" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (Score:4, Insightful)
For something like Hypercard? Sure.
This isn't just the 10,000th fart app.
The metamorphosis is complete! (Score:2, Insightful)
I am not even sure if this is metamorphosis. I think this would have a lot earlier had Apple been as successful as Micrsosft turned out to be. We are just finding out what assholes the CEO and the company are now.
Even after this, I can still understand why those who want to be cool and hip go crazy for apple products. What I do not understand is the
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
If Apple wants HyperCard for the iPad (Score:3, Insightful)
Then perhaps the question should be phrased as:
- how would this app need to be created so as to meet the requirements of the license?
William
(who is quite fond of Runtime Revolution as it was originally called and developed a ``ProportionBar'' app in it:
Windows: http://mysite.verizon.net/william_franklin_adams/portfolio/interfaceconcepts/proportionbar.zip [verizon.net]
Mac OS X: http://mysite.verizon.net/william_franklin_adams/portfolio/interfaceconcepts/proportionbar.app.sit [verizon.net] )
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:1, Insightful)
But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?
Repeat after me. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly. Apple iPhone is not a monopoly.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Careful Apple (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!
Yeah, tell me about it!!! And just like Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo I can't use cross-platform development to.... oh wait...
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
That, and the fact they don't have anywhere near a monopoly or even a plurality on the mobile computer market. But that's just a minor thing compared to marketing, of course.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I don't really care.
Apple isn't a monopoly and makes some really good stuff.
As a developer I don't care as I can pick what platform I want to work on.
I gave up passionately caring about a platform when the Amiga failed to get any traction when it was better in every way than the PC was.
Apple, Microsoft, Google, HP, Intel, and AMD are all just companies that I buy products from when I like them. They do not pay my bills.
Software patents "There should be no such thing" I care about.
The DMCA "stupid and harmful" I care about.
The RIAA and MPAA acting like an arm of the government I care about.
Apple telling people they can not sell iPorn or write in Flash for the iPhone? Who cares? Pick a different platform folks. These rules do not have the force of law and really have nothing to do with your rights or freedoms.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
they're lack of a monopoly is what makes it legal but it doesn't make it any more right
Re:No MacBook mini (Score:3, Insightful)
You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.
Find me a 10" MacBook on Apple's web site. The closest thing is iPad.
Why do you need a "MacBook mini"?
For the same reason that anyone else needs a 10" laptop: limited physical space. I seem to remember that either AT&T or a netbook maker ran a TV ad about a netbook (in flight mode) fitting into a coach airplane seat, while the seat in front got in the way of a larger laptop's screen.
And consider the "Homepage" at the top of your post. I use my Dell Mini 10 to develop homebrew games for at least one game console.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
Repeat after me. You don't need to be a monopoly to be convicted of anti-competitive behavior. You don't need to be a monopoly to be convicted of anti-competitive behavior.
Re:So they created a product, based on another (Score:1, Insightful)
No, this is a company with a business plan that said they would re-do their product to output ONLY for iPhone/iPad (read: not be cross-compilable for other platforms), use 100% CocoaTouch (meaning they look and function like every other app on the platform), guarantee they'd keep pace with the SDK 100%, and have the apps be literally indistinguishable from apps written in Objective-C. And Steve Jobs said no to this business plan.
To recap: they had a product before that was acceptable; with no notice, Apple changed their policies; they offered to redo their entire product to be inline with what the supposed spirit of these changes was; they were told nope, can't do that.
I thought Apple made it quite clear that they would not support any third party product for use in developing iPhone/iPad applications. Why would Hypercard be surprised that their third party product used for developing iPhone/iPad applications was rejected?
Re:Apple has no netbook (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (Score:3, Insightful)
And what is it that makes this a device instead of a computer?
The iron grip Apple holds on it.
Loosen that grip and you could have a truly revolutionary product. As-is, it's only revolutionary in their own PR. And also magical. Super magical.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
Think of the PC in the 90's. If you want the best games, applications, etc, you need a PC. If you're making something, chances are your platform is a PC. Microsoft's control of the platform extended out into control over the world. Sure, Apple hadn't completely failed. Amiga devotees were eagerly expecting the second coming. But Microsoft's monopoly was unassailable, and was weilded like a sledgehammer against its enemies.
Now, communications and daily use are switching over to phones. PC gaming is a second-rung platform behind consoles. The bookseller, Amazon, is a platform. The educational company Apple has a music and movie platform. Microsoft's Xbox Live and Sony's PSN are platforms. Custom business applications are built for Flash, Java, Web technologies, and other platform agnostic development environments. Steam is a platform. The PC is just there. The biggest update lately has been Direct X 10, and who actually remembers Direct X 10?
There was a time when PC was king. Microsoft could hide an API or tweak an interface, and their competition would just disappear. System updates could save thousands of hours of effort or destroy millions of dollars of software. Now, it's just a platform. It's not irrelevant as a piece of hardware. It's irrelevant as a player.
Convicted Monopolist My Arse (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate it when people trot out that tired convicted monopolist argument.
So if tomorrow the Supreme Court found Apple to be a monopolist with regards to smartphones (setting aside all plausibility arguments as to such, this is a hypothetical), I presume that would make you say what Apple is doing is wrong?
I somehow doubt that would be the case for most people that raise the convicted monopolist argument.
Legality is not the same as morality.
Long view (Score:5, Insightful)
If we were all guaranteed with a crystal ball that Apple would forever remain a niche player and that the iPhone/iPad mobile ecosystem would not become the dominant paradigm of mobile computing, then I would agree with you. However, given Apple's current trajectory, this conclusion is by no means clear to me. So in the meantime, I am trying to prevent that from happening, but raising attention to the bad things that would happen if Apple's current growth continues unimpeded.
This is about rights and freedoms. Freedom of choice is meaningless if when the time comes to make a choice, there is only one thing to choose from.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (Score:5, Insightful)
Android probably never will go down that route, and as a result, no matter how successful Android phones become in the market, Android apps will never be as successful as iPhone apps.
not true, Android Marketplace? [android.com]
The only problem is convincing developers there's a market there, or that developing for generic devices with any number of different features is a good idea.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
See thats the way this works - the almighty Steve convinces you 3G isn't in the iPhone because it would drain the battery, despite any factual technical information being presented and the fanboys defend it as a rational because of a pseudo technical explanation from Steve. The reality is (and this is the way Apple appears to be ahead of the competition most of the time) is it wasn't ready, but to ship early the feature was dropped completely.
On a more technical level - radios implemented in silicon are really inefficient - even to this day. Its something a lot of really smart people are working really hard to fix, and even if they do solve the problem they can never get above 50% efficiency (ie - 2 watts in for 1 watt out) with even the best semi-conductors.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, as long as Apple continues to make the iMac and MacBook and doesn't try to pitch the iPad as a replacement for them. The problem is that while most PC makers have a small (10"), medium (13"), and desktop replacement (15-17") laptop, Apple makes iPad instead of a MacBook mini. Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL.
This is a very weak argument based on conjecture and nothing more. The fact is that Steve Jobs sees no future in netbooks and Apple won't be producing one any time soon. The iPad isn't a netbook, it's a device for what many people do with netbooks - surf the web and kill time.
You might as well have said "Imagine what would happen if Steve Jobs' One More Thing this year is that Apple is invading Poland?"
Re:No MacBook mini (Score:4, Insightful)
Eh, nowhere in my post do I reference individual Macbook models, or Macbooks in general. There is also no "rugged Macbook" (which I would love), etc. I guess I don't understand your argument here.
Regardless of what hardware they offer, when it comes to developing for OS X it's like any other operating system, and that will never change.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Embedded device is an arbitrary distinction (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't care if it's arbitrary to you or not. Apple sees them as such, so that's how it is. If you don't like it, that's excellent, there are many other products for you to choose from.
And your paranoia is absurd - "a grim digital dark age for humanity" thanks to Apple's sdk limitations, hahaha.
Re:Long view (Score:3, Insightful)
Then they would have a monopoly and then it would be illegal.
Until then everything they are doing is very legal.
It is not all that different than a movie studio saying that it would only produce g and pg movies.
But frankly having a smart phone isn't a right at all. And right now the best way to keep Apple from having a monopoly is to not buy an iPhone.
Anything else is just really flopping about.
Everybody that buys an iphone even if they don't like the restrictions is just saying "it doesn't really matter to me".
Now the other things on my list are important and carry the weight of law and peoples energy should be focused on fixing those and not this silly fight over the iPhone.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
The PC always was a niche product among gamers. Consoles are nothing new. All that's happened is that the console market has grown massively, while the PC market hasn't.
Let's get back to the real world and markets that matter. Business, for example, where (much as many of us wish it were otherwise) there is no sign whatsoever of any imminent shift away from Microsoft products on fat-client PCs.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
> I don't remember anyone saying that 3G wasn't desirable, only that it wasn't a deal breaker.
Way to pay attention to the world market. Much like apple does.
Yes no 3g was a deal breaker outside the us.
Legality == Morality? (Score:3, Insightful)
You say you don't care about Apple's draconian actions in your original post.
You then respond to me and imply that you would care if they had an illegal monopoly.
So would it be accurate to characterize your belief as you only care about things, and think they're bad, if they're illegal? For example, if it were legal to have a monopoly, you would not care if a company had a monopoly and exercised it in an anti-competitive fashion?
Personally, I find things good or bad, generally irrespective of what the law says about them, and in turn believe good governance is trying to align the laws with the populace's beliefs on what is good and bad.
In this case, I see actions by Apple, that are plainly anti-competitive, and add nothing to society, and add nothing to anyone except themselves. It may be legal (I am taking no position on that), but despite that, I still believe that Apple's actions are bad, and should be discouraged.
The best way to keep Apple from having a monopoly is not "to not buy an iPhone". It is to not buy an iPhone, to raise attention to Apple, to call them out on their bad behavior, and to not give bad guys a free pass simply because they are complying with the letter of the law.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
If Windows takes the same route with Mobile 7 and doesn't allow manual installs then they'll be just as evil as Apple
We used to say "just as evil as Microsoft". Funny how times have changed.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure it does... If Apple had a monopoly like Microsoft's, consumers would have no ready way to evade Apple's restrictions. Thus, the market would no longer function properly, in that Apple could get away with diminishing the value of their product to end users without having to worry about pricing in a corresponding drop in demand. As it is, if you don't like Apple's practices, you can buy a different phone or write apps for a different platform. So, no, I think that if Apple had a monopoly like Microsoft's it would obviously be much worse, both morally and legally.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
Uhm, I hate to say this, but that is how Windows Phone 7 will work - no native code, Silverlight only. And only apps approved by MS, thought the MS app store.
Like Microsoft with Windows, Apple does not place any of these restrictions on OS X, just iPhone OS.
Wrong or right, each can have their own opinion, but you can not compare iPhone to Windows. Compare iPhone to WinMo7 and Windows to OS X. Looks like the two companies are not so different in their policies after all.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
(I know what you mean, but...)
No, the *Mac* was black and white. *Apple* had color since introduction in 1977.
Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (Score:3, Insightful)
I haven't heard Toyota calling for developers to come develop for their platform, nor have I seen them using developers to create the usefulness that justify the price a Prius commands. A Prius is worth its price out of the box. IMO, the iPhone and the iPad would be worth much less than they are if not for 3rd party developers. Apple quite often uses the work of these 3rd party developers as bullet points to why you should purchase one of their devices. Without them, you've just purchased an $800 combination Movie/Music player and internet browser.
The word "entitlement" is thrown around as a negative, but in this case - perhaps yes - developers are entitled some amount of consideration from Apple. Note - I said consideration. Thus far, it's only been Apple's way or the highway.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a problem if Apple had explicitly given permission for me to develop my app, and then pulled those permissions after they changed their minds, and oh, by the way, after I've already spent valuable time, effort, and development dollars on making that app. Isn't this what happened? Steve Jobs basically asks someone to develop this HyperCard. Then he turns around and says it is not allowed. Did he do it before? I seem to recall that Google Voice for the iPhone was a done deal, up to the part Apple rejected it in the approval process. Again, development dollars gone to waste.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, and I recall lots of people saying 3G wasn't desirable because that's what Apple told them to say.
Re:Phone alone (Score:3, Insightful)
Ha,
That's gold Jerry, Gold.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is that the iPhone and iPad are becoming more or less general computing platforms. This isn't a matter of locking down a single, narrow media device, but a broad multi-purpose system. The iPad is a hell-ouv-lot more than a game console -- it has the potential to completely replace a laptop, depending on the user's needs. Apple is getting a foot-hold on our everyday computing needs, so when they lock down such devices they gain an unbelievable amount of control.
They are not becoming general computing platforms. They might have that potential if Apple were not intent on shutting that down. You have confused multi-purpose (Apples's intent) with omni-purpose (your desire).
By all means vote with your wallet, but quit acting as if Apple has done something evil. If Apple is making such obvious errors in their handling of these products, then surely some other manufacturer will fill the void, but no one is going there yet.