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by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Sunday February 04, 2018 @09:23AM (#56065359)
What the fuck is Rust? Never heard.
Rust is a relatively new programming language.
I looked into using it a little while ago. On the surface it sounded appealing. It sounded like it would give me a lot of what C++ offers, but without some of the headaches that C++ suffers from.
To keep a long story short, Rust, as a language, did not meet my expectations. The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. The performance was mediocre. The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bottom in practice, even after you understand it and have worked with it. There was only one compiler implementation, and I found it to be buggy and slow, even compared to a slow C++ compiler like GCC. The standard library was pretty bad, and the string handling was atrocious. Third-party libraries often didn't compile, and many were woefully incomplete. It was a really bad experience.
But the worst part, in my opinion, was the Rust community. I've dealt with a lot of programming language communities over the decades, but Rust's was by far the worst I've ever experienced.
The whole Rust Code of Conduct [rust-lang.org] thing is kind of weird. I mean, programming language communities got along just fine without codes of conduct for ages. At first I though it was just a symbolic thing, but I soon realized that the Rust Code of Conduct was much more than that. I'd classify it more as a religious text, or even a behavioral script. It was like the Rust community worshiped it. In my experience it turned what should have been friendly discussion among collaborating colleagues into a highly controlled, flow-chart-like, courtroom-like, overly-formal, totally-artificial, robotic-like ritual. You literally had to walk on eggshells the whole time, out of fear of accidentally violating the Rust Code of Conduct in some obscure and non-obvious way.
The Rust Code of Conduct itself is contradictory. For example, there's a paragraph that says, "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people", yet that same paragraph starts with, "We will exclude you from interaction if...". They basically would be violating their own Rust Code of Conduct when they try to uphold it!
I later found out that they even have a Rust Moderation Team [rust-lang.org] that goes around and enforces the Rust Code of Conduct! I can't think of any other programming language community that I've dealt with that has a formally organized hit squad whose sole purpose is to take out community members who are deemed to be "undesirable". It's absurd. It's really, really absurd.
Something else I found disturbing was the extreme leftism that permeated the community. Now I don't think that programming and politics really need to mix much. They're pretty separate, for the most part. But in my experience the Rust community was very heavily into promoting "diversity" and "tolerance" and all of those other left-wing buzzwords, even when they really had nothing to do with programming. It's like they're more focused on "social justice" than they are on creating a usable programming language.
Another thing that bothered me was the smugness I kept encountering from Rust's contributors and supporters. They kept portraying Rust as being this great savior, when in my opinion it's rather mediocre, and actually has some pretty serious flaws and problems. If you questioned these Rust supporters, they would basically belittle and insult you, assuming they didn't try to censor you through down-modding or banning, if the discussion venue supported such things. I found it strange how they often ridiculed C++, yet when it came to the same functionality or features Rust was often much worse than C++.
I've been programming for a long time, and I've used a lot of different programming languages, but my experience with Rust was perhaps the worst I've ever experienced. No programming language has left me more disappointed, and no programming language community has ever left me feeling more weirded out. In my opinion, the Rust community put on this facade of faux friendliness, but underneath all of this feel-good rhetoric was severe dysfunction and disguised anti-social tendencies. I went back to C++, because even if it isn't a perfect language, at least it's a decent language with a honest, open, friendly community.
I didn't see it before. If it's relevant, then it needs to be part of the lore of the community. Rust going around policing its users with an SJW code of conduct is pretty exceptional for a programming language.
Too bad it is impossible to actually do this kind of policing, just like how Iran can't prevent you from writing an anti-islam text in Farsi. The whole "policing users" accusation doesn't make any sense. At most, Rust could be policing the developers of the compiler, which is stupid but commonly practiced.
Too bad it is impossible to actually do this kind of policing, just like how Iran can't prevent you from writing an anti-islam text in Farsi.
But they can deny you help in learning and using the language, and like Iran, they can issue their version of a fatwa, albeit only aimed at your job and career. So far.
If the only way to learn a language is by depending on a small group, then that language is either way too complicated or not enough common. You don't depend on ISO to learn C++, you don't depend on Guido to learn Python.
If the only way to learn a language is by depending on a small group, then that language is either way too complicated or not enough common.
Rust and its ecosystem are young, that goes hand in hand with it being a new language without a huge sponsor like Apple for Swift, so that "not enough common" is both accurate and not a big disqualifier if you want to get in on it at an early stage.
If the only way to learn a language is by depending on a small group, then that language is either way too complicated or not enough common.
Kind of a Catch 22 there. If the language didn't support complex powerful features, it would be too simplistic. If it had too much in common with existing languages, it would be derivative and have no reason to exist.
New programming language design is hard, it's painful, it's iterative, and it's thankless. Even though I will not be using Rust for any deployed code for at least the next 10 years, I'm glad people are investing time in it.
There is a freely available rust book, nobody is going to check your politics before you try reading it. I don't understand, that's how many people learned C or other languages, why is Rust different? Are you saying that whenever someone asks about Rust in stackoverflow he must first show confirmation that he is not a republican?
To paraphrase Al Capone, "You can get much farther with a book and a community than you can with a book alone." To someone today who's looking to learn a new language, the community matters a great deal. Back the day when I learned C, it was more than the book (which to my memory, in its first edition had a poor introduction to pointers), it was the local community that for example allowed me to procure a copy of the Lions book that helped me learn it. This really makes a difference for the harder languages, compared to e.g. FORTRAN and BASIC which I learned before C.
Rust is not trying to invent anything, it just combines features from existing languages. Hell, as a C++ programmer I can tell you that to me, C++ looks like a complicated, buggy, and faster version of rust, and yes, that includes their fancy memory safety and type system. If you want complicated languages that try to invent new ways to make secure code, I recommend taking a look at something like Idris.
Rust is not trying to invent anything, it just combines features from existing languages.
I was under the impression that the borrow checking paradigm, while not entirely a new thing on earth, was something of an "invention" in making it front and center for what it does.
Rust is not trying to invent anything, it just combines features from existing languages.
That's more or less true, but some of those "existing languages" (e.g. Cyclone) are sufficiently obscure that they are unfamiliar. I should have said "commonly-used languages" rather than "existing languages".
But they can deny you help in learning and using the language, and like Iran, they can issue their version of a fatwa, albeit only aimed at your job and career.
It is impossible for the Rust community to ruin your career unless you did something seriously wrong. Like, criminal kind of wrong.
The most the Rust community can do is invade Hacker News. But you shouldn't be reading the Hacker News comment threads anyway.
It is impossible for the Rust community to ruin your career unless you did something seriously wrong. Like, criminal kind of wrong.
Of course, but with thought crimes ever expanding, and the Party Line changing from day to day, it's very easy to inadvertently commit crimes in the eyes of SJWs.
As many people can attest, like Pax Dickinson as one of the most extreme examples. And Curtis "Moldbug" Yarvin, one of the prime instigators in deplatforming him from Strange Loop was none other than "I want a (viole
Hacker News comment threads are far, far better than Slashdot comment threads. This site has been a complete dump for over a decade now.
Slashdot comment threads are mostly obvious trolling. HN, on the other hand, is Dunning-Kruger central.
What constitutes "better" in this case is a matter of taste, and I wouldn't judge anyone who came to a different conclusion than I do on this one. HN is certainly more civil, for example. But I think that there is something far worse than an extremely stupid person, and that's someone who thinks the extremely stupid person is very smart.
That is why I find the HN comment section worse than the Slashdot comm
Of course, but with thought crimes ever expanding, and the Party Line changing from day to day, it's very easy to inadvertently commit crimes in the eyes of SJWs.
Tell me about it. Just like how I can never tell week-to-week if the alt-right are pro-cop or anti-cop. I'm pretty sure it's anti-cop this week thanks to the Nunes memo.
I'm not going to go into the historical examples because I don't care, and that all four cases are sufficiently different that no reasonable generalisations can be made. But there is one clear commonality that is worth mentioning: None of the four people you mention are anywhere near starving.
But Twitter and the like, the classic platforms for that?
Of course, but with thought crimes ever expanding, and the Party Line changing from day to day, it's very easy to inadvertently commit crimes in the eyes of SJWs.
In other words, you're claiming it's very easy to inadvertently offend some people, if you lack tact or respect for others. Since these SJWs, if they exist in any numbers, do not have legislative or judicial power, you're free to ignore them. Similarly, they're free to ignore you.
Brendan Eich's political activities (contributing large amounts
Since these SJWs, if they exist in any numbers, do not have legislative or judicial power, you're free to ignore them. Similarly, they're free to ignore you.
Buh? IF they exist? SJWs are proud of what they are. Social Justice is what they fight for, and you're gonna pretend it doesn't exist? No power? The Democratic Party is basically SJW these days, it's all about identity politics. That's why they lost the election to Trump, they decided to fuck over the white working class who had been their bedro
You're talking about legislating politeness here, and I don't know that any significant number of people want to do that. Personally, I'm thick-skinned and perfectly happy to write someone off as a lost cause if they have nothing but insults. BTW, Trump played identity politics very well. The whole opppressed white male Christian thing is identity politics.
As a long-time D&D player, I'd rather be considered a Social Justice Mage, but you go ahead and categorize me if it's convenient for you. I'm
Sadly, his comment is in line with stuff I've seen in the wild. Not *exclusively*, mind. I'm sure there's plenty of normal Rust coders, but it doesn't take a particularly large coterie of insufferable douchenozzles to leave an impression that is really difficult to overcome (in part because, at least for that coterie and those who accommodate them, it's a true impression.)
Toxic free-association... haha... Yep I don't permit nibberizing Trotsky-ites in my C-cubicle or Wed-nite code-frolic at THEBITTEREND. Smash-yo-mamaz-face if you show up.
Toxic free-association... haha... Yep I don't permit nibberizing Trotsky-ites in my C-cubicle or Wed-nite code-frolic at THEBITTEREND. Smash-yo-mamaz-face if you show up.
SJW is a term coined by SJWs themselves, and at the time it was meant as a compliment. But at some point, people who aren't activists realized just how smug they are and how entitled they feel, (see the Hugh Mungus lady, and just how bitchy she is when she misconstrues everything as being an affront to women) and just how they're favored topics (identity politics, for example) are really a load of total bullshit.
I think you're thinking of the term "PC", which was indeed coined as a joke by the PC crowd.
"Social Justice Warrior" is a term that arose on Tumblr and Livejournal to describe a certain kind of keyboard warrior (related to what we used to call "flame warrior"). Here's the definition on Urban Dictionary:
A pejorative term for an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or not well-thought-out way, for the purpose o
That's very interesting. I didn't know the pre-Tumblr history.
So I am going to reword my claim. The term "social justice warrior" is an old term coined by activists and it had entirely positive. It is the abbreviation "SJW" that arose on Tumblr and Livejournal to refer to a certain kind of insincere keyboard warrior.
The user that originally posted that rant got called out on HN because he joined the Mozilla Rust IRC channel and called a few people n*ggers. He got warned, didn't listen and then he was banned. Now he's going to post his little screed for the rest of his life and people like you are going to believe his little anonymous rant and make out like having a code of conduct is a massive problem.
You're probably lying. I see nothing in that comment indicating that it was driven by revenge or racism or whatever other nonsensical allegations you're trying to make.
If anything, it's the most plausible, complete, objective and honest analysis of Rust that I've ever seen.
That comment makes a lot of good points about problems with Rust-the-language:
- The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. - The performance was mediocre. - The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bo
I have never looked at Rust and never participated in Rust's community.
But when someone posted a clear, well-written comment with some very specific points, and then I see only people either agreeing with or attacking the messenger, but no one refuted the specific points raised... The only reasonable take away is that the points were valid and that got some people pissed.
It might be a copy/pasted post, so what? One can repeat a lie a hundred times, but one cannot repeat the truth?
That's actually kind of arguable. OG Marxism said that people's primary identity was from class rather than race or gender.
Modern Identity politics says the opposite. So it doesn't matter if Mummy and Daddy paid for you to get a useless Ivy League degree after a well funded gap year [quickmeme.com], so long as you are part of, or at least claim to be part, of an oppressed group - non white, non male or non straight - you're part of the new proletariat. Conversely a working class straight white man is a part of the evil opp
It shares the same fundamental flaw, the idea that some people get to rule over others without the latter's consent, while adding additional flaws of its own. I consider it fully within the spectrum of leftist/socialist/communist behaviors that my oath to defend the Constitution requires me to oppose. Fortunately, a job typically does the trick more effectively than any level of persuasion or even force possibly could. Leftists, usually, grow up. Just not as fast as the rest of us.
I can understand that point of view, but must respectfully disagree, in that the more extreme forms of leftism, and the more extreme reactions/overreactions thereto, seem to work together to bring out the worst in people, myself included, rather than the best.
I hope you also dislike right-wing identity politics, and are against the Republican's attempt to establish rule through gerrymandering and voter suppression.
I know, comparing languages to libraries, but have you ever interacted with the ffmpeg/libav developers? I did a little in the 2010-2013 timeframe, they were a challenging lot to deal with.
A lot of the technical shortcomings of Rust might be overlooked based on your opening statement: "Rust is a relatively new programming language." - but, with an exclusive (in a bad way) community behind it, I don't think it will be going far - languages are not like comprehensive video conversion libraries, there are too
I went back to C++, because even if it isn't a perfect language, at least it's a decent language with a honest, open, friendly community.
C++ is arguably the most complicated, the hardest to learn, general purpose programming language in use today. And, in the last seven years, with the last three major revisions, C++ has become, I would estimate, three or four times harder than it was before. If you were to start from ground zero, it would take you much longer than 2-3 years in order to be fully versed in all the arkane features of it. I would say that to become fully proficient in C++, when starting from absolutely nothing more than general knowledge of computer programming, will take at least 5-7 years, maybe even ten.
Because of that, experienced C++ developers tend to be older, and with many many years of experience under their belt. They've outgrown the phase of their lives where they think themselves to be #1 hot-shit masters of the universe. We're older now. We know better.
It takes 5-7 Yeats to learn anything to a more than cursory level. Simple programming languages are included in that statement. It's just that some languages fool you into thinking you know more than you do. It's a function of the size of the ecosystem and the primary area of application.
C++ is used for more complicated stuff, on average, than Perl or JavaScript, so you end up feeling like you don't know what you're doing when you jump into the deep end on a C++ project. Again, on average.
And, in the last seven years, with the last three major revisions, C++ has become, I would estimate, three or four times harder than it was before.
Nope. Pretty much all the new stuff is to make it easier to program. Don't use the outdated stuff, and you can always keep a book handy to remind you of what it does.
A lot of the complaints about C++ are because it encapsulates some difficult concepts in syntax that's not too horrible (considering it's C++). General code generation (C++ templates or Lisp m
Any insight into how they've avoided Donglegating a programmer trying to use Rust? I figure that's the next major step that will increase their toxicity, making it clear that being a Rust programmer is also a clear and present danger to your job and career.
I know there is at least one AC post on every Rust article decrying its code of conduct / community, and while it is your right to post it (copypasta or not), it would lend some credence to your comment if you bothered to register an account. Currently what you're doing seems more like a persistent trolling effort.
In many cases that's true, but if someone is calling out a code of conduct, it kind of does matter the person calling it out has been personally affected by it.
The stated purpose of a typical code of conduct is to keep everything civil and professional in official channels. If it's not doing that job (either because things are not civil and professional in official channels, or because it's hurting people in other ways), we need to know, and details matter. Abstract, hypothetical, or context-free arguments
Hi. I'm not a Rust supporter, I don't know anything about it except that it came from Mozilla, and I did not attack the person I was replying to.
It was merely a friendly suggestion, and I see two mods agreed with my message.
I do have an account, and this time I decided to post under it. I suppose I could have used it for my earlier post too, but I don't always bother to log in.
(And my skin is fairly thick, but I am not particularly fond of faecal references.)
When I'm rough-around-the-edges and talk/joke around as such, where's the tolerance for ME?
Yeah, that's where it breaks done, doesn't it.
Tolerance is a mutual agreement, a contract if you will, not a moral obligation. If you don't want to sign onto the contract, fine, but don't expect those who do to apply its terms to you. In fact, expect them to attack you mercilessly if they can't simply eject you. If you want to be protected by the agreement, you have to abide by it. It's like a peace treaty of sorts.
I'll certainly grant that the concept of tolerance is sometimes applied to stifle simple disagreement that is not actually intolerance, a
I am a consulting real-time systems engineer. I created the paging and hand-off algorithms which made it possible for cell phones to receive phone calls anywhere and to keep them while moving. I created the integrated on-line inventory accounting system for McDonalds. I created the software used by major refineries to make gasoline and distillate from crude oil. I created software that runs steel mills. My programs had to work properly, or people died. I used ANSI C for my work. I created libaries to handle I/O
If you test at all you recognize your fallibility. If you are fallible then your tools should make bugs less likely to have severe consequences. The only way your thinking could be consistent is if you removed the testing part. If you are convinced you can do it first time perfect without testing, then better languages to be able to consistently express constraints and guarantee them are not necessary... you are, so they are.
Instead you convince yourself that your tests, which we both know will not have ha
I had no idea. One google search seems to confirm the identity politics approach to defining a language, and I can't think of many more things that would make me distrust a *programming language* more:
"Reading this team announcement was really disappointing and I can only agree with what @skade already said. This needs no be fixed before everyone just gets used to it being a male-only team."
ML is a language, not "machine learning". (Score:4, Informative)
Don't know enough about programming languages to recognise a reference to the ML language, even in a tweet that also describes some of its features? Just elide the references you dont understand and replace ML with "machine learning" and you too can be a Slashdot submitter! Don't worry, there are no editors checking that your summary reflects the contents of your links.
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ML means Meta Language
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What the fuck is Rust? Never heard.
Rust: a programming lang with a toxic community (Score:3, Interesting)
What the fuck is Rust? Never heard.
Rust is a relatively new programming language.
I looked into using it a little while ago. On the surface it sounded appealing. It sounded like it would give me a lot of what C++ offers, but without some of the headaches that C++ suffers from.
To keep a long story short, Rust, as a language, did not meet my expectations. The syntax is C-like, but it's also quirky in some ways. The performance was mediocre. The borrow-checking approach to memory management is a pain in the bottom in practice, even after you understand it and have worked with it. There was only one compiler implementation, and I found it to be buggy and slow, even compared to a slow C++ compiler like GCC. The standard library was pretty bad, and the string handling was atrocious. Third-party libraries often didn't compile, and many were woefully incomplete. It was a really bad experience.
But the worst part, in my opinion, was the Rust community. I've dealt with a lot of programming language communities over the decades, but Rust's was by far the worst I've ever experienced.
The whole Rust Code of Conduct [rust-lang.org] thing is kind of weird. I mean, programming language communities got along just fine without codes of conduct for ages. At first I though it was just a symbolic thing, but I soon realized that the Rust Code of Conduct was much more than that. I'd classify it more as a religious text, or even a behavioral script. It was like the Rust community worshiped it. In my experience it turned what should have been friendly discussion among collaborating colleagues into a highly controlled, flow-chart-like, courtroom-like, overly-formal, totally-artificial, robotic-like ritual. You literally had to walk on eggshells the whole time, out of fear of accidentally violating the Rust Code of Conduct in some obscure and non-obvious way.
The Rust Code of Conduct itself is contradictory. For example, there's a paragraph that says, "we don’t tolerate behavior that excludes people", yet that same paragraph starts with, "We will exclude you from interaction if ...". They basically would be violating their own Rust Code of Conduct when they try to uphold it!
I later found out that they even have a Rust Moderation Team [rust-lang.org] that goes around and enforces the Rust Code of Conduct! I can't think of any other programming language community that I've dealt with that has a formally organized hit squad whose sole purpose is to take out community members who are deemed to be "undesirable". It's absurd. It's really, really absurd.
Something else I found disturbing was the extreme leftism that permeated the community. Now I don't think that programming and politics really need to mix much. They're pretty separate, for the most part. But in my experience the Rust community was very heavily into promoting "diversity" and "tolerance" and all of those other left-wing buzzwords, even when they really had nothing to do with programming. It's like they're more focused on "social justice" than they are on creating a usable programming language.
Another thing that bothered me was the smugness I kept encountering from Rust's contributors and supporters. They kept portraying Rust as being this great savior, when in my opinion it's rather mediocre, and actually has some pretty serious flaws and problems. If you questioned these Rust supporters, they would basically belittle and insult you, assuming they didn't try to censor you through down-modding or banning, if the discussion venue supported such things. I found it strange how they often ridiculed C++, yet when it came to the same functionality or features Rust was often much worse than C++.
I've been programming for a long time, and I've used a lot of different programming languages, but my experience with Rust was perhaps the worst I've ever experienced. No programming language has left me more disappointed, and no programming language community has ever left me feeling more weirded out. In my opinion, the Rust community put on this facade of faux friendliness, but underneath all of this feel-good rhetoric was severe dysfunction and disguised anti-social tendencies. I went back to C++, because even if it isn't a perfect language, at least it's a decent language with a honest, open, friendly community.
Re:Rust: a programming lang with a toxic community (Score:5, Informative)
Something that I find disturbing is that I actually saw this exact comment before. Why are you copy-pasting this over and over again?
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Too bad it is impossible to actually do this kind of policing, just like how Iran can't prevent you from writing an anti-islam text in Farsi. The whole "policing users" accusation doesn't make any sense. At most, Rust could be policing the developers of the compiler, which is stupid but commonly practiced.
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But they can deny you help in learning and using the language, and like Iran, they can issue their version of a fatwa, albeit only aimed at your job and career. So far.
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If the only way to learn a language is by depending on a small group, then that language is either way too complicated or not enough common. You don't depend on ISO to learn C++, you don't depend on Guido to learn Python.
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Rust and its ecosystem are young, that goes hand in hand with it being a new language without a huge sponsor like Apple for Swift, so that "not enough common" is both accurate and not a big disqualifier if you want to get in on it at an early stage.
Re:Rust: a programming lang with a toxic community (Score:4, Informative)
If the only way to learn a language is by depending on a small group, then that language is either way too complicated or not enough common.
Kind of a Catch 22 there. If the language didn't support complex powerful features, it would be too simplistic. If it had too much in common with existing languages, it would be derivative and have no reason to exist.
New programming language design is hard, it's painful, it's iterative, and it's thankless. Even though I will not be using Rust for any deployed code for at least the next 10 years, I'm glad people are investing time in it.
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There is a freely available rust book, nobody is going to check your politics before you try reading it. I don't understand, that's how many people learned C or other languages, why is Rust different? Are you saying that whenever someone asks about Rust in stackoverflow he must first show confirmation that he is not a republican?
Re:Rust: a programming lang with a toxic community (Score:5, Insightful)
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Rust is not trying to invent anything, it just combines features from existing languages. Hell, as a C++ programmer I can tell you that to me, C++ looks like a complicated, buggy, and faster version of rust, and yes, that includes their fancy memory safety and type system. If you want complicated languages that try to invent new ways to make secure code, I recommend taking a look at something like Idris.
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I was under the impression that the borrow checking paradigm, while not entirely a new thing on earth, was something of an "invention" in making it front and center for what it does.
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Rust is not trying to invent anything, it just combines features from existing languages.
That's more or less true, but some of those "existing languages" (e.g. Cyclone) are sufficiently obscure that they are unfamiliar. I should have said "commonly-used languages" rather than "existing languages".
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But they can deny you help in learning and using the language, and like Iran, they can issue their version of a fatwa, albeit only aimed at your job and career.
It is impossible for the Rust community to ruin your career unless you did something seriously wrong. Like, criminal kind of wrong.
The most the Rust community can do is invade Hacker News. But you shouldn't be reading the Hacker News comment threads anyway.
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Of course, but with thought crimes ever expanding, and the Party Line changing from day to day, it's very easy to inadvertently commit crimes in the eyes of SJWs.
As many people can attest, like Pax Dickinson as one of the most extreme examples. And Curtis "Moldbug" Yarvin, one of the prime instigators in deplatforming him from Strange Loop was none other than "I want a (viole
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Hacker News comment threads are far, far better than Slashdot comment threads. This site has been a complete dump for over a decade now.
Slashdot comment threads are mostly obvious trolling. HN, on the other hand, is Dunning-Kruger central.
What constitutes "better" in this case is a matter of taste, and I wouldn't judge anyone who came to a different conclusion than I do on this one. HN is certainly more civil, for example. But I think that there is something far worse than an extremely stupid person, and that's someone who thinks the extremely stupid person is very smart.
That is why I find the HN comment section worse than the Slashdot comm
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Of course, but with thought crimes ever expanding, and the Party Line changing from day to day, it's very easy to inadvertently commit crimes in the eyes of SJWs.
Tell me about it. Just like how I can never tell week-to-week if the alt-right are pro-cop or anti-cop. I'm pretty sure it's anti-cop this week thanks to the Nunes memo.
I'm not going to go into the historical examples because I don't care, and that all four cases are sufficiently different that no reasonable generalisations can be made. But there is one clear commonality that is worth mentioning: None of the four people you mention are anywhere near starving.
But Twitter and the like, the classic platforms for that?
Probably. I never go to Twitter either, so it mos
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In other words, you're claiming it's very easy to inadvertently offend some people, if you lack tact or respect for others. Since these SJWs, if they exist in any numbers, do not have legislative or judicial power, you're free to ignore them. Similarly, they're free to ignore you.
Brendan Eich's political activities (contributing large amounts
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Since these SJWs, if they exist in any numbers, do not have legislative or judicial power, you're free to ignore them. Similarly, they're free to ignore you.
Buh? IF they exist? SJWs are proud of what they are. Social Justice is what they fight for, and you're gonna pretend it doesn't exist? No power? The Democratic Party is basically SJW these days, it's all about identity politics. That's why they lost the election to Trump, they decided to fuck over the white working class who had been their bedro
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You're talking about legislating politeness here, and I don't know that any significant number of people want to do that. Personally, I'm thick-skinned and perfectly happy to write someone off as a lost cause if they have nothing but insults. BTW, Trump played identity politics very well. The whole opppressed white male Christian thing is identity politics.
As a long-time D&D player, I'd rather be considered a Social Justice Mage, but you go ahead and categorize me if it's convenient for you. I'm
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Sadly, his comment is in line with stuff I've seen in the wild. Not *exclusively*, mind. I'm sure there's plenty of normal Rust coders, but it doesn't take a particularly large coterie of insufferable douchenozzles to leave an impression that is really difficult to overcome (in part because, at least for that coterie and those who accommodate them, it's a true impression.)
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Toxic free-association ... haha ... Yep I don't permit nibberizing Trotsky-ites in my C-cubicle or Wed-nite code-frolic at THEBITTEREND. Smash-yo-mamaz-face if you show up.
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Toxic free-association ... haha ... Yep I don't permit nibberizing Trotsky-ites in my C-cubicle or Wed-nite code-frolic at THEBITTEREND. Smash-yo-mamaz-face if you show up.
Abort, retry, fail.
Re: Rust: a programming lang with a toxic communit (Score:2)
SJW is a term coined by SJWs themselves, and at the time it was meant as a compliment. But at some point, people who aren't activists realized just how smug they are and how entitled they feel, (see the Hugh Mungus lady, and just how bitchy she is when she misconstrues everything as being an affront to women) and just how they're favored topics (identity politics, for example) are really a load of total bullshit.
A classic SJW in pop culture is PC Principal.
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SJW is a term coined by SJWs themselves [...]
Nope, not even close.
I think you're thinking of the term "PC", which was indeed coined as a joke by the PC crowd.
"Social Justice Warrior" is a term that arose on Tumblr and Livejournal to describe a certain kind of keyboard warrior (related to what we used to call "flame warrior"). Here's the definition on Urban Dictionary:
A pejorative term for an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or not well-thought-out way, for the purpose o
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That's very interesting. I didn't know the pre-Tumblr history.
So I am going to reword my claim. The term "social justice warrior" is an old term coined by activists and it had entirely positive. It is the abbreviation "SJW" that arose on Tumblr and Livejournal to refer to a certain kind of insincere keyboard warrior.
That distinction makes sense to me.
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The user that originally posted that rant got called out on HN because he joined the Mozilla Rust IRC channel and called a few people n*ggers. He got warned, didn't listen and then he was banned. Now he's going to post his little screed for the rest of his life and people like you are going to believe his little anonymous rant and make out like having a code of conduct is a massive problem.
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You're probably lying. I see nothing in that comment indicating that it was driven by revenge or racism or whatever other nonsensical allegations you're trying to make.
If anything, it's the most plausible, complete, objective and honest analysis of Rust that I've ever seen.
That comment makes a lot of good points about problems with Rust-the-language:
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It's copy-paste, and it has some polished writing in it. It smells like propaganda to me, and that is relevant to considering it.
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Something that I find disturbing is that I actually saw this exact comment before. Why are you copy-pasting this over and over again?
I also had this felling and, just in case anyone doubts you: here [slashdot.org] is other instance of that exact comment.
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+1 informative. thx
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If you have various people asking you what 2+2 equals, why do you always copy-paste "4"?
So I take it everything written there is correct? (Score:1)
I see that you haven't made any attempt to refute what that comment says about the Rust programming language and the Rust community.
So I'm going to have to assume that what that comment is claiming is correct.
Your response also raises an interesting question: why are you so eager to suppress what that comment is claiming?
That makes me yet again believe that what the comment is claiming is correct.
I also see a lot of other Rust fanatics here attacking that comment, but none of them have actually disproved wh
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2, Insightful)
I have never looked at Rust and never participated in Rust's community.
But when someone posted a clear, well-written comment with some very specific points, and then I see only people either agreeing with or attacking the messenger, but no one refuted the specific points raised... The only reasonable take away is that the points were valid and that got some people pissed.
It might be a copy/pasted post, so what? One can repeat a lie a hundred times, but one cannot repeat the truth?
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Dec 23, 2017 [slashdot.org]
Sounds like somebody has an axe to grind.
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Please do not conflate identity politics with "extreme leftism". It may be extreme but certainly not towards anything Socialist.
I'm what you might call an "extreme leftist", and from what you describe I would be rather put off by the Rust community.
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No true socialist fallacy. This sort of 'identity politic' has been part of the left wing shtick since the time of Marx and Engels.
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That's actually kind of arguable. OG Marxism said that people's primary identity was from class rather than race or gender.
Modern Identity politics says the opposite. So it doesn't matter if Mummy and Daddy paid for you to get a useless Ivy League degree after a well funded gap year [quickmeme.com], so long as you are part of, or at least claim to be part, of an oppressed group - non white, non male or non straight - you're part of the new proletariat. Conversely a working class straight white man is a part of the evil opp
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I think leftist identity politics are a good thing because of the reaction they produce.
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I hope you also dislike right-wing identity politics, and are against the Republican's attempt to establish rule through gerrymandering and voter suppression.
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I know, comparing languages to libraries, but have you ever interacted with the ffmpeg/libav developers? I did a little in the 2010-2013 timeframe, they were a challenging lot to deal with.
A lot of the technical shortcomings of Rust might be overlooked based on your opening statement: "Rust is a relatively new programming language." - but, with an exclusive (in a bad way) community behind it, I don't think it will be going far - languages are not like comprehensive video conversion libraries, there are too
Re:Rust: a programming lang with a toxic community (Score:5, Funny)
To keep a long story short
Wow - I'd hate to see your long ones!.
Re:Rust: a programming lang with a toxic community (Score:4, Informative)
I went back to C++, because even if it isn't a perfect language, at least it's a decent language with a honest, open, friendly community.
C++ is arguably the most complicated, the hardest to learn, general purpose programming language in use today. And, in the last seven years, with the last three major revisions, C++ has become, I would estimate, three or four times harder than it was before. If you were to start from ground zero, it would take you much longer than 2-3 years in order to be fully versed in all the arkane features of it. I would say that to become fully proficient in C++, when starting from absolutely nothing more than general knowledge of computer programming, will take at least 5-7 years, maybe even ten.
Because of that, experienced C++ developers tend to be older, and with many many years of experience under their belt. They've outgrown the phase of their lives where they think themselves to be #1 hot-shit masters of the universe. We're older now. We know better.
Re: Rust: a programming lang with a toxic communit (Score:3)
C++ is used for more complicated stuff, on average, than Perl or JavaScript, so you end up feeling like you don't know what you're doing when you jump into the deep end on a C++ project. Again, on average.
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Nope. Pretty much all the new stuff is to make it easier to program. Don't use the outdated stuff, and you can always keep a book handy to remind you of what it does.
A lot of the complaints about C++ are because it encapsulates some difficult concepts in syntax that's not too horrible (considering it's C++). General code generation (C++ templates or Lisp m
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I know there is at least one AC post on every Rust article decrying its code of conduct / community, and while it is your right to post it (copypasta or not), it would lend some credence to your comment if you bothered to register an account. Currently what you're doing seems more like a persistent trolling effort.
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It's the message that matters, not the messenger.
In many cases that's true, but if someone is calling out a code of conduct, it kind of does matter the person calling it out has been personally affected by it.
The stated purpose of a typical code of conduct is to keep everything civil and professional in official channels. If it's not doing that job (either because things are not civil and professional in official channels, or because it's hurting people in other ways), we need to know, and details matter. Abstract, hypothetical, or context-free arguments
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Hi. I'm not a Rust supporter, I don't know anything about it except that it came from Mozilla, and I did not attack the person I was replying to.
It was merely a friendly suggestion, and I see two mods agreed with my message.
I do have an account, and this time I decided to post under it. I suppose I could have used it for my earlier post too, but I don't always bother to log in.
(And my skin is fairly thick, but I am not particularly fond of faecal references.)
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When I'm rough-around-the-edges and talk/joke around as such, where's the tolerance for ME?
Yeah, that's where it breaks done, doesn't it.
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When I'm rough-around-the-edges and talk/joke around as such, where's the tolerance for ME?
Yeah, that's where it breaks done, doesn't it.
Tolerance is a mutual agreement, a contract if you will, not a moral obligation. If you don't want to sign onto the contract, fine, but don't expect those who do to apply its terms to you. In fact, expect them to attack you mercilessly if they can't simply eject you. If you want to be protected by the agreement, you have to abide by it. It's like a peace treaty of sorts.
I'll certainly grant that the concept of tolerance is sometimes applied to stifle simple disagreement that is not actually intolerance, a
The Problem isn't C.... it's undisciplined program (Score:2, Interesting)
I am a consulting real-time systems engineer.
I created the paging and hand-off algorithms which made it possible for cell phones to receive phone calls anywhere and to keep them while moving.
I created the integrated on-line inventory accounting system for McDonalds.
I created the software used by major refineries to make gasoline and distillate from crude oil.
I created software that runs steel mills.
My programs had to work properly, or people died.
I used ANSI C for my work. I created libaries to handle I/O
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If you test at all you recognize your fallibility. If you are fallible then your tools should make bugs less likely to have severe consequences. The only way your thinking could be consistent is if you removed the testing part. If you are convinced you can do it first time perfect without testing, then better languages to be able to consistently express constraints and guarantee them are not necessary ... you are, so they are.
Instead you convince yourself that your tests, which we both know will not have ha
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I had no idea. One google search seems to confirm the identity politics approach to defining a language, and I can't think of many more things that would make me distrust a *programming language* more:
https://internals.rust-lang.or... [rust-lang.org]
"Reading this team announcement was really disappointing and I can only agree with what @skade already said. This needs no be fixed before everyone just gets used to it being a male-only team."
Re: Rust: a programming lang with a toxic communit (Score:1)
https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/25640 [github.com]
https://github.com/rust-lang-deprecated/rust-buildbot/issues/2 [github.com]