I find it rather ironic that so many people in America, the land of capitalism, hate outsourcing so much. This is simple economics right out of Adam Smith. People in India can do the same things as people here in the States, and at a significantly lower price. Therefore, they get the jobs, and rightfully so. One good benefit for Americans is that this allows their employers to use that money elsewhere. And yeah, IT job salaries might fall, and some people might have find jobs outside the IT field. But for t
So after years of school and experiance we should just go work at a fast food joint? Please explain why. Also, keep in mind that this is NOT free trade. It is a one way deal. They get our jobs, but we get nothing and cant go over there to work.
That's the big thing the apologists miss. America is expensive. I'd love it personally if this were not the case. Then I wouldn't have had to take out $30,000 in student loans to get an education to get out of poverty.
Their reasoning is that we're supposed to be nimble and get educated again. To what end? When I have 7 PHDs and $1million in student debt will that be enough? Will their be a job I can get? Or should I just go apply for Wal-Mart greeter now? Because this "learn more and keep up" crap is stupid. I already know what I need to know to do my job. So my choices are spend more money going to school or get a service job. Great choice.
Of course, if (in my haste to respond to the crap being posted on this board) I commit typos like "their" instead of "there" too often, I might end up a Wal-Mart greeter anyway.:-)
There are too many of us fighting for too few jobs, many of which are now going overseas. I can do the job. It just doesn't exist any longer. Or there are less of them. Get it?
Because this "learn more and keep up" crap is stupid.
Would you like to have a physician work on you who had 20 years' worth of experience? Now, would you like him to operate on you using the same techniques he used 20 years ago, instead of using more modern equipment? "Learn more and keep up" is the way of the professional life.
I already know what I need to know to do my job.
You know how to do a job that no longer exists.
So my choices are spend more money going to school or get a service job.
You don't seem to get it. And yes, that was an insult. Saying something like that to someone, when you know nothing of their background is unsulting and immature. I'm a professional. I put myself through college. Worked 40 hours a week while working full time so I didn't end up poor like my parents. And, what do you know, I didn't end up poor. I made a career for myself. Or, at least I thought I did. I then proceeded to work some 20 hours a week off-hours learning new skills to stay fresh and stay ahead of
It's about economics. If I have to spend money to make less money than I spent, then I'm not ahead of the game. Get it?
Of course I get it. What I don't understand is why you get it, and yet you keep doing what you're doing.
See, I make more than I've spent on education, and yet I'm constantly keeping up. In fact, I'm constantly -ahead-. What's more, I'm costing my boss less than I'm creating for him.
I wouldn't expect a doctor to go back to medical school every 7 years.
Doctors don't ever STOP going to medical school. They are constantly reading journals and attending conferences to learn how to do what they do better. They're constantly talking to their peers to learn new things. Of course, it's possible that new technology may make a specialty technique obsolete. If so, it's the doctor's job to keep constantly appraised of the new technology and techniques so that he can adapt his skills to a new area.
Yes, but you're missing the point. The doctor does not ever get laid o
Myabe not commercial software development jobs, but there are plenty of customization and support programming jobs out there.
"read the facts" yourself. MOST companies in the U.S. are small. Tiny, in fact. They all need computer help. Go make your own job, don't expect me to hand one to you.
Make it? So everyone (while broke and paying bills and feeding their families) is supposed to start their own companies? The fact is that existing companies have to hire. If they don't hire, there are no jobs. I opened the paper. I applied for the sum total of 10 jobs available in my field. Now what? Run around wearing a sandwhich board with my resume on it?
Yes. There are more jobs. In the service industry. Where do you think most of the out of work auto-workers, factory workers, steel-workers, etc. retooled to? Some went to school. Some doubtless made careers. And some went into the service industry. If there are a finite number of high-paying jobs and that finite number is shrinking then logic dictates that even though jobs may not be shrinking people are being more and more pushed into lower-paying jobs.
Prove it. Consider that personal income has risen in those same last 10 years.
There is not a shred of evidence / proof that the "finite number of high-paying jobs" is shrinking. In fact, consider JUST the fact that federal tax revenues are increasing (this is easy to see, just take a quick glance at irs.gov) indicates that plenty of people are making more money.
Awwww, now you consider me a foe because I'm throwing cold water on your pity party. I'm rather proud of that. Hopefully one of these days you
"Personal income is rising"? Is this an average. If it is then you have to take into account the disparity between the personal income of most Americans that DO work in service level jobs and the personal income of the upper crust that make hundreds of thousands to hundreds of millions per year. Average that out and I'm sure personal income is rising. But the gap between the rich and the poor is rising, the middle class is shrinking. So you aren't throwing water on anything. You're only proving yourself to
You're wrong. It is a myth perpetuated by those who feel like they're losing to the "hyper-wealthy".
The myth (rich richer, poor poorer) really got started after a 1999 UN Human Development Report. However, that report looked at the gap between nations, not individuals within nations.
The truth is, (and oh, calling me a fool. Give me a fucking break) Americans in the 50's were likely to have zero, or 1 automobile, and no color TV. Today, the majority of families in America have at least 2 cars, and at l
How can you look at the evidence in front of your eyes and piss and moan about a "sick" economy that is nothing of the sort.
You're right. The bankruptcies, the 41 million people who can't afford medical insurance, and the first President to have a net loss of jobs since Hoover, are all extremely hard to see and even harder to identify as signs of a messed up economy.
All this whining about the "sick" economy marks you as an idiot. I'm sick of trying to get through your pessimistic worldview. Come back whe
Bad example about doctors going back to medical school. Let's pretend that ever 7 years doctors have to pay upwards of $30,000 to get a whole new career. In the middle there fill in a year or two of being laid off. That's comparable to what's happening to some of us in IT right now.
So you're missing the point. I'm not saying one can't learn outside of school. In fact, as I've said in many other posts, I've spent upwards of 20 hours a week since I graduated to teach myself new technology. Going from an Engl
You act as though someone should just hand you a damn job. God damn you're doing a lot of whining on this story, how many posts did you throw in here? 100?
How about this: there was a story here last week about starting your own IT consulting. Try that. Quit whining that the rest of us "owe" you a frigging job.
So everyone is going to own their own company. How's that going to work out? I'm not whining for the record, I'm responding to people like you who think that there are simple solutions to what is a complex issue. Complex for everyone. I will, now that I'm out of work, probably start trying to make my own way. But 9 out of 10 ventures like that fail. The world is divided into large employers and that's where the jobs are by and large. That's just a fact of life. When you want software are you going to go to
Judging from your statements above, I would suggest getting the service job. Your comments do not demonstrate the attitude necessary to be a professional. I state this not as an insult but as a simple matter of fact.
I think the point you're missing is that we're not talking about a doctor updating his skills. We're not taking about programmers unwilling to learn a new languages. We're talking about saying to IT to go study chemistry since there are no more IT jobs.
I think the point you're missing is that we're not talking about a doctor updating his skills. We're not taking about programmers unwilling to learn a new languages. We're talking about saying to IT to go study chemistry since there are no more IT jobs.
As I suggested in another post, nobody ever learned anything useful about IT by going to college.
Everything I know about IT (as opposed to Software Engineering, my "real" job) I learned because I had to get a program working. Or because I wanted to play L
Everything I know about IT (as opposed to Software Engineering, my "real" job) I learned because I had to get a program working.
Dunno about software engineering, but I have found my CS degree very applicable to network engineering. (And I mean routing and switching, not windows admin.) A lot of the theory I learned applied very well.
And if school is the wrong answer then how are we to be "retrained"? My whole point is that the economists talk of "retraining" like what happened with manufacturing is co
I'm a mechanical engineer, and I wouldn't want to have to deal with something someone "self-taught" did. I'd start over, just to make sure no one got sued. Not to say it wouldn't be good work, but the degree is there to get hired in the first place and for legal reasons... nothing else. Yeah, that sucks, but you figure out a way to get rid of silly lawsuits and I'll take another look at what I'm willing to sign off on.
That's the big thing the apologists miss. America is expensive.
And why is that? Let's see--ah, here's part of it: 14% of your income (yes, the employer's matching amount counts) goes into the Ponzi scam that is Social Security, which, as the famous poll says, fewer young people expect to get a dime back from than expect to meet space aliens. When's Taxpayer Freedom Day this year--in April or May? If you didn't have to dump a major fraction of your income into the black hole that is government, you could
Here in Finland we pay perhaps about 50% (average) in taxes. That probably means our economy is something between socialism and full capitalism. Well, just like in the USA, but we're a bit further away from capitalism.
Here that money is used to create a social welfare system, a kind of that I don't think exists anywhere in the world outside a few countries in Scandinavia (but I might be mistaken). Basically for our taxes we get medical care, education from primary school to the university level, study gran
Stop going to school - it only enriches the schools. I have a University of CA engineering degree. I even got a P.E.license. All useless - every company I worked for failed or was bought out. So, I mastered in computer science. Now I am thinking that being an automobile mechanic might be a pretty good job. I am a bit of a motorhead and good with my hands...and I am more credentialed than the people who designed the cars in the first place.
Their reasoning is that we're supposed to be nimble and get educated again. To what end? When I have 7 PHDs and $1million in student debt will that be enough? Will their be a job I can get? Or should I just go apply for Wal-Mart greeter now? Because this "learn more and keep up" crap is stupid. I already know what I need to know to do my job. So my choices are spend more money going to school or get a service job. Great choice.
Learn a trade. Canada/America/etc are badly, badly in need of tradesman. My roo
Whenever a system becomes completely defined, some damn fool discovers
something which either abolishes the system or expands it beyond recognition.
Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:4, Insightful)
Their reasoning is that we're supposed to be nimble and get educated again. To what end? When I have 7 PHDs and $1million in student debt will that be enough? Will their be a job I can get? Or should I just go apply for Wal-Mart greeter now? Because this "learn more and keep up" crap is stupid. I already know what I need to know to do my job. So my choices are spend more money going to school or get a service job. Great choice.
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
You know everything that you need to know to do you job. But "your job" doesn't exist, because you're unemployed. I see a disconnect here...
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
Would you like to have a physician work on you who had 20 years' worth of experience? Now, would you like him to operate on you using the same techniques he used 20 years ago, instead of using more modern equipment? "Learn more and keep up" is the way of the professional life.
You know how to do a job that no longer exists.
Jud
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Of course I get it. What I don't understand is why you get it, and yet you keep doing what you're doing.
See, I make more than I've spent on education, and yet I'm constantly keeping up. In fact, I'm constantly -ahead-. What's more, I'm costing my boss less than I'm creating for him.
Doctors don't ever STOP going
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Yes, but you're missing the point.
The doctor does not ever get laid o
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Myabe not commercial software development jobs, but there are plenty of customization and support programming jobs out there.
"read the facts" yourself. MOST companies in the U.S. are small. Tiny, in fact. They all need computer help. Go make your own job, don't expect me to hand one to you.
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/History/emps i t. 020494.news
3rd quarter 1993 (earliest I could find quickly), there were 119,543,000 people actively working.
ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/news.release/History/empsi t. 01092004.news
4th quarter 2003 (latest I could find quickly), there were 138,369,000 people actively working.
A (very) little math indicates that 18,826,000 MORE people are working now that there were 10 years ago. And that is on top of all the outsourcing, l
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
There is not a shred of evidence / proof that the "finite number of high-paying jobs" is shrinking. In fact, consider JUST the fact that federal tax revenues are increasing (this is easy to see, just take a quick glance at irs.gov) indicates that plenty of people are making more money.
Awwww, now you consider me a foe because I'm throwing cold water on your pity party. I'm rather proud of that. Hopefully one of these days you
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
The myth (rich richer, poor poorer) really got started after a 1999 UN Human Development Report. However, that report looked at the gap between nations, not individuals within nations.
The truth is, (and oh, calling me a fool. Give me a fucking break) Americans in the 50's were likely to have zero, or 1 automobile, and no color TV. Today, the majority of families in America have at least 2 cars, and at l
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
You're right. The bankruptcies, the 41 million people who can't afford medical insurance, and the first President to have a net loss of jobs since Hoover, are all extremely hard to see and even harder to identify as signs of a messed up economy.
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
So you're missing the point. I'm not saying one can't learn outside of school. In fact, as I've said in many other posts, I've spent upwards of 20 hours a week since I graduated to teach myself new technology. Going from an Engl
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
How about this: there was a story here last week about starting your own IT consulting. Try that. Quit whining that the rest of us "owe" you a frigging job.
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the point you're missing is that we're not talking about a doctor updating his skills. We're not taking about programmers unwilling to learn a new languages. We're talking about saying to IT to go study chemistry since there are no more IT jobs.
Back when manufacturing was lost we sa
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
As I suggested in another post, nobody ever learned anything useful about IT by going to college.
Everything I know about IT (as opposed to Software Engineering, my "real" job) I learned because I had to get a program working. Or because I wanted to play L
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Dunno about software engineering, but I have found my CS degree very applicable to network engineering. (And I mean routing and switching, not windows admin.) A lot of the theory I learned applied very well.
And if school is the wrong answer then how are we to be "retrained"? My whole point is that the economists talk of "retraining" like what happened with manufacturing is co
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
Priceless. Absolutely priceless.
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
And why is that? Let's see--ah, here's part of it: 14% of your income (yes, the employer's matching amount counts) goes into the Ponzi scam that is Social Security, which, as the famous poll says, fewer young people expect to get a dime back from than expect to meet space aliens. When's Taxpayer Freedom Day this year--in April or May? If you didn't have to dump a major fraction of your income into the black hole that is government, you could
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
Here that money is used to create a social welfare system, a kind of that I don't think exists anywhere in the world outside a few countries in Scandinavia (but I might be mistaken). Basically for our taxes we get medical care, education from primary school to the university level, study gran
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:1)
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Start practicing it now so you can say it with a cheery attitude.
Re:Outsourcing is a good thing... (Score:2)
Learn a trade. Canada/America/etc are badly, badly in need of tradesman. My roo