Unhappiness Surrounding Perl 6 Announcements 81
eponymous poltroon writes "On SourceTalk, Simon makes a good case for the news about Perl 6 being a well-managed hoax. " That's his best case scenario: he outlines the major issues surrounding the recent structural changes announced to coincide with Perl 6's development.
Re:Perl Sux! (Score:1)
Note: I love Perl, but I understand that other people may not love Perl. But it's not fair to say "Perl Sux!" without having anything to back it up. I also didn't list any languages more poorly-designed than Perl because I didn't feel like following my second point.
Re:Goatse.cx Law? (Score:3)
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Re:Slashdotted (Score:1)
Re:It's real (Score:4)
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[4] Dick Hardt's role for perl6 will be to talk to customers with a significant interest in Perl's stability and growth (e.g. Yahoo investment banks, etc.) and forward these concerns to the perl6 community.
"Investment banks" is a giveaway. It's so amazingly well contrived, it almost makes you forget that Perl doesn't have customers, it has users. Do you see a mention of the Perl user groups there? Does this sound like Larry with a concern for the community?
--------------------------------
Working for a major wall street firm, perl is widely used by us, and generally in ways that potentially have a large financial impact (like running a trading book.) When a lot of money is on the line, you can bet people get really interested in the stability of a product (even one you didn't "pay" for; this is wall street after all, what you save in costs ends up as more profits, and that has a direct impact on your annual comp.) At least this part of that article seems reasonable to me...
(Investment banking is kind of a misnomer, in that it represents only a portion of what a global financial services firm does - which also includes broker/dealer activities, proprietary trading, investment management, and various more traditional banking services as well.)
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:1)
I'll damn well sit up and listen if simon (*this* simon) says he wants nothing to do with further perl development. perl would be losing a damn good hacker in that case.
Re:It's real (Score:1)
+4 Insightful? How about another point of view.... (Score:2)
Posted by CmdrTaco [cmdrtaco.net] on Thursday July 20, @08:15AM
from the but-think-of-the-alternatives dept.
alessio [mailto] writes: "On the front page of Linux Weekly News [lwn.net] there is a report from the Ottawa Linux Symposium where the adorable Miguel de Icaza supposedly states that Unix has been built wrong from the ground up." It's actually a pretty cool interview, and as always, Miguel makes his point without any candy coating! The major point is the lack of reusable code between major applications (a major problem that both KDE and GNOME have been striving to fix for some time now).
Seems to me like he explained pretty well what it was about plus "Unix Sucks" was what Miguel's seminar was entitled. So what is your problem?
PS: About the the fact that slashdot publishes links to opinions on webboards...isn't that what people read slashdot for? Major Linux and Perl were made and are made not with press releases but via discussions on USENET and webboards.
PPS: Slashdot posts stories submitted by readers. The headlines are not picked by slashdot authors but instead are the ones that the readers submitted the stories with (I know because 5 or 6 of my submissions have been posted). If you want to blame someone for the sensationalistic headlines, blame the readers who spice up the headlines so that there is a greater chance their stories are read by the editors and submitted.
It's worse than you think! (Score:1)
Re:[OT]: Or install junkbuster (Score:1)
Also recommend using Opera v4x, which has superb cookie handling (far better than MSIE!) and other excellent privacy features.
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Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:1)
Keep It In Your Pants, Pal! (Score:2)
Dick Hardt's?
From Holden?
What ever happened to Guile? (Score:1)
Re:You can't run a webserver on a potato (Score:1)
Chip's interesting assertion (Score:1)
This has got to be one of the most interesting things I've read all week. perl became popular by word-of-mouth, and it's always tried to stand on its own merits. That's something I've always admired about it -- it's just real that way.
But on the other hand, a lot of users who might benefit from perl are getting turned off by a lot of uninformed hearsay. Maybe we perl users do need an advocate, much as linux users need Eric Raymond. I find the thought somewhat distasteful, but I just don't know...
Re:It's real (Score:2)
By definition all communitites think alike. That's how you basically define a community in the modern age (i.e the internet).
If you want a bunch of people who hate unix go hang out at mucrosoft.public.whatever newsgroups. Go to comp.databases.ms-access and post something about oracle and see what happens. Go to fawcette publications web boards and say the word delphi you'll be flamed out of existance.
The beauty of the internet is that you can hang out with people interested in the same thing as you no matter where you live and that no matter how obscure your interest is you'll likely find enough people to communicate with. If you don't like what is being said here please by all means go away and find some people who think like you. I have suggested several places where you can discuss your distaste for linux, perl, python or even slashdot I am sure there are billions of others.
Whatever you do please get off your sanctimonious ass and stop whining.
Re:The last language designed by committee was... (Score:1)
Re:You can't run a webserver on a potato (Score:1)
For all those that missed it the first time [totl.net]
Re:It's real (Score:2)
Yeah, but they've got jon katz... JON F-ING KATZ... so they're journalists.
i mean, he writes for rolling stone... ROLLING F-ING STONE... so he must be a journalist.
the hordes need to be fed... if they're not sated, they get cranky. this kind of crap apparently makes the readers happy...
A question (Score:3)
"you're just like a nazi"
"I am a nazi"
"oh."
My Perl structural problems.... (Score:2)
BTW, the CPAN module itself is great. To camel newbies, after you set up "perl -MCPAN -e shell", installing new modules is a snap...
Sometimes, we still must use the source, Luke...
Re:You can't run a webserver on a potato (Score:1)
OK, Guys, listen up (Score:5)
Second, and more importantly - with the information I had at the time, I honestly completely believed the Perl 6 thingy to be a joke. That's how it looked to me from the outside. It's not, and now I just look foolish.
If I'd been at Monterey, perhaps I'd have had a clearer understanding of what was going on - I was acting on a mixture of second-hand stories and emotion. Now Chip and Nat have explained it to me, the picture is slightly different.
I don't know what I'm going to do about Perl 6. Maybe I'll work on it, maybe I won't. At this stage, I'm not particularly happy with the way it's going, but the details haven't been decided yet.
Rewriting Perl 6 from scratch is an unbelievably Good Thing, and it's something I'm very, very eager to get my teeth into. But I'll have to watch what happens to the community; at the moment, I don't like the new development model. That's not a fault of the development model, or a fault of me. Different strokes for different folks.
I made the mistake of judging too early - try not to do that yourself.
Re:The last language designed by committee was... (Score:1)
Re:Perl Sux! (Score:1)
Re:It's real (Score:2)
Which, of course, translates into a higher number of page/banner views. Not only by the people waging the flamewar, but by the thousands of observers.
They probably see a revenue spike whenever a 1000-comment article gets postes. Can you really blame them? After all, they're just doing the good ol stimulus response dance. No point in being any better than that...
Perl and Banks (Score:1)
This looks like another
Perl6 in Perl6 (Score:2)
BTW: It looks like the Microsoft guys are catching on [microsoft.com]. If you open source hackers want to let Seattle make you look like a bunch of socializers, be my guest. I've been doing Perl consulting pretty solidly since before Perl5 and I'm shifting a lot of my resources to Javascript in part because of what I see happening with Perl vs Javascript as exemplified by Perl6 vs JScript 5.5 [microsoft.com].
I guess this is to be expected, with Larry getting beleagured by all the attention.
C++? Well, they didn't pick Java, I'll give them that much... but it looks like now its only a matter of time before the Perl porters hop on the Gravy Train Wreck(tm) that is Java.
It's a cryin' shame. I really like Perl.
Ah well, life goes on -- it always does -- until it doesn't -- but then you knew that...
Re:The reality (Python) (Score:1)
Because they have completely opposite philosophies, but are often competing for very similar application domains. People think of Perl as the language for handy little quick-and-dirty scripts, but personally, I reach for Python and don't find it to be at all inferior. What really makes both of these languages effective for this purpose is the rich set of freely-available library modules that each has.
Don't take this to mean that I think Python is only appropriate for quick-and-dirty stuff, though - I've found that the process of transforming one of my quick Python hacks into a more powerful generalized tool goes quite smoothly...
Re:It's real (Score:1)
Who's Jon Katz?
Oh, wait: do you mean that guy that I filtered out?
Only one requirement (Score:1)
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:1)
Re:It's real (Score:2)
There is no Perl Cabal, and I am not part of it. :-)
Re:And his problem is? (Score:2)
What project is more "open" than this?
A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:3)
The requested URL
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
I run Perl 6 (Score:5)
why? (Score:1)
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get me
Re:Not just the link, the whole damn website (Score:1)
Slashdotted (Score:1)
--
Your friendly neighborhood mIRC scripter.
if (ismoderator(reader)) hidemessage(this);
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:4)
Here's the story (if you still can't access it):
posted by Simon on Thursday July 20, @06:12AM
from the it-goes-or-I-do dept.
Well, the Perl 6 thing was funny for a while, but I'm kinda unconvinced now. See the rest
of the article for why.
Oh, and if this isn't a joke - I quit.
OK, Perl 6 is starting to look implausible. In fact, I'm convinced it's an elaborate practical joke. Let's
examine the evidence here.
The switch to Perl 6 was determined at a closed-door meeting of Perl porters at the conference -
not on the mailing list.
The first thing that happened was that Tom Christiansen was dropped from the project. Tom's a
good friend of Larry, and they've just launched a book together. Suddenly thrown out like that? It's
not very Larry-like.
The perl6-porters mailing list was shut down with no explanation.
The 'bootstrap' mailing list - I've tried posting to it. It doesn't send them on; I asked the list
manager about this - no response.
Adam Turoff has been posting "roles" and "goals" on the bootstrap list. His mails end with this
disclaimer:
Any mistakes, errors, etc. are purely my own. Please send corrections,
clarifications or requests for clarification directly to me as to reduce
chatter on the bootstrap list.
So we're not to ask questions on the list? Come on...
Development teams will be closed-subscription lists. This is, uhm, a little different to the way
Perl works.
Here are some of the roles Ziggy posted today:
quality assurance schwern@pobox.com
spokesdroid brian@sri.net [2]
project manager gnat@frii.com [3]
customer relations dickh@activestate.com [4]
These don't look real.
Here are some of the explanations:
[2] brian d foy will work mostly behind the scenes in this role.
This role involves gathering the position of the perl6 community
and presenting it to the public in a single voice with a consistent
message.
"A single voice with a consistent message"? A Perl spin doctor?
[3] Nathan Torkington has agreed to take the role of project manager
for perl6 until he can find someone to take over.
OK so far.
This position involves controlling the release of information about
perl6, messages about the project, etc.
"Controlling the release of information"? Uhm.
Early discussions about this role mentioned the possibility of
recruiting someone with managerial experience but not necessarily
coming from a technical background or even a Perl background.
Open source projects work on a meritocracy. This has to be a joke.
[4] Dick Hardt's role for perl6 will be to talk to customers with a
significant interest in Perl's stability and growth (e.g. Yahoo,
investment banks, etc.) and forward these concerns to the perl6
community.
"Investment banks" is a giveaway. It's so amazingly well contrived, it almost makes you forget
that Perl doesn't have customers, it has users. Do you see a mention of the Perl user groups there?
Does this sound like Larry with a concern for the community?
'Perl 6 To Be Complete Rewrite (But Not What You Think)' Not what you think indeed.
I could go on. Let me know if this doesn't convince you.
By the way, if this is true, I'll want nothing more to do with Perl.
Tip: Sick and tired of these tips? Type "set tips 0" any time.
> set tips 0
You can't run a webserver on a potato (Score:4)
Its not a hoax. It handles the cgi scripts on my potato powered webserver.
Though you can run Linux on an ear of corn, thanks to all the kernels.
ba-dum-dump!
I kill myself
George
The reality (Score:5)
Re:The last language designed by committee was... (Score:1)
chip@valinux.com responds (Score:2)
After you check out the link to the story, please take a moment to read Chip Salzenberg's response. I reproduce it in its entirety here, as it's relatively brief, well-worded, and the server is slammed eight ways from sunday just now:
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:2)
Re:Perl Sux! (Score:1)
Re:It's real (Score:1)
As for Miguel's talk, I went to his talk at the Linux Expo in London a couple of weeks ago, and it was definitely titled 'Unix Sucks'. I imagine the talk at Ottawa was the same. (Unix sucks because there is no code reuse and not enough consistency between different programs, according to Miguel.)
What about java? (Score:1)
Re:The last language designed by committee was... (Score:1)
--
Cause she's the cheese and Im the macaroni
[OT]: Or install junkbuster (Score:1)
On my piss-poor 33.6K modem at home it makes the web a much more bearable proposition. Check out the junkbuster at:
http://www.junkbuster.com/
Don't worry about the ".com" suffix, it's available under the GPL.
Chris
Re:You can't run a webserver on a potato (Score:2)
Though you can run Linux on an ear of corn, thanks to all the kernels.
ba-dum-dump!
I kill myself
oh good...saves anyone else the trouble then :)
The beloved Talking Heads (Score:1)
Don't forget it is also a business of power. To say that "journalists" never spread FUD is quite naive. At least we are given a forum for discussion here at /. even if the S/N ratios suffer a bit. I'd take a bit of noise anyday for a tiny bit of unique signal.
*gel
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:1)
Why do you think your opinion of what Perl goes on to do matters? It doesn't.
I remain unconvinced by these set of arguments of Perl's future directions one way or the other. The posting of such unsubstantiated drivel reaks of yellow journalism and a healthy helping of sensationalism.
Can we get a witness?
--
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:1)
The newsworthiness Slashdot purports in the posting of this article cannot be established without answering both questions.
--
Re:It's real (Score:1)
So it's OK for Miguel to use that title, and then explain what he means by it, but it's not ok for
For the lazy - here is the full article that
alessio writes: "On the front page of Linux Weekly News there is a report from the Ottawa Linux Symposium where the adorable Miguel de Icaza supposedly states that Unix has been built wrong from the ground up." It's actually a pretty cool interview, and as always, Miguel makes his point without any candy coating! The major point is the lack of reusable code between major applications (a major problem that both KDE and GNOME have been striving to fix for some time now).
So, has been built wrong from the ground up, lack of reusable code etc (all stuff the Miguel said) is an inflamatory or innapropriate article?
Slashdot is no worse or better than traditional media for the title of the article. It is designed to be catchy, so that you read further.
But worse than designed by committee is... (Score:2)
Ba-dump!
For instance their latest initiative,
AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
Ben
Re:The beloved Talking Heads (Score:1)
Exactly. And that power is given when the ants like the sugar and keep comming back for more...and here we are. 8^)
Re:What about java? (Score:1)
--
Re: (Score:1)
Re:The last language designed by committee was... (Score:2)
The Handbook of Programming Languages has to say the following:
Michael B. Feldman: Ada 95 in Context, in: Peter H. Salus (Ed.): Handbook of Programming Languages, Vol. I, Object-Oriented Programming Languages. MacMillian, 1998, pp. 561.The Topaz project chose C++ instead (which is probably fine) however the reason they gave for dropping Ada off the candidate list was due to bootstrapping worries which were, in my view, unfounded now that we have GNAT (also see this). I hope they reconsider.
From a project standpoint of view, I think Ada is a very good choice. (And so would Eiffel be, IMO). However, one of the features of Perl is that Perl runs almost everywhere. GNAT is build on top of gcc, IIRC, and gcc doesn't run on all the platforms Perl runs on (the actual number of different platforms Perl runs on is unknown). Of course there are other Ada compilers, but I fear that Perl written in Ada means certain platforms will be locked out. And that is a price not everyone is willing to pay. The link you provided suggest GNAT only runs on 3 platforms, Linux, DOS, and SCO. There is also a GNAT homepage [gnat.com], which shows it's run on more platforms.
-- Abigail
Re:The reality (Python) (Score:2)
I think it comes down to two different ways that people think and create. Those (like me) who find Perl to be intuitive and graceful are the people who picture a large working system, and then dive down to the lowest level of detail to begin implimenting it in a sort of fugue, where many small details may intersect and become larger modules.
Python programmers appear to me to be people who see a large system as a collection of modules (or objects) from the start and who will then begin to impliment those modules in a relatively serial fashion.
Does this mean that one is better than the other? Of course not, but I do think that having a language that addresses both sets of people is either a challenge of a higher order than the already herculean task of writing a good programming language, or is impossible. Once you get past the simple arguments of white space vs. dollar signs, you Python and Perl are not that different. I would cite the following ways in which they do differ a strengths and weaknesses of BOTH languages:
Overall, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding of what the other camp wants and is doing....
GNAT support... (Score:1)
The info on the GNAT homepage is true with some modifications. For example, GNAT runs on Solaris according to the GNAT homepage. It doesn't on our Solaris system because of a security option.
A very basic security measure on any Solaris system is to turn stack execution off. A jump to code on the stack will generate an error (and a log entry :-) and the program will stop. That drastically limits the effects of buffer overflows, since code cannot be planted in a buffer on the stack and then executed.
For some bizarre reason, GNAT generates code that always executes on the stack. Run a Solaris system with stack execution disabled, and *bang* no GNAT application will run either. Ever. Run a Solaris system with stack execution enabled (and, thus, leave yourself much more vulnerable to a gazillion buffer overflow exploits), and GNAT will work.
The interesting question is, of course, why on earth GNAT generates code that executes on the stack. GCC doesn't. No other compiler I've come across does.
My point? GNAT support is limited. I certainly wouldn't use GNAT for anything I wanted to distribute widely. And that's quite sad, because Ada is, in spite of its voluminous syntax, actually a great language for really huge projects.
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:1)
--
Re:And his problem is? (Score:2)
I'm speaking from an OpenBSD/NetBSD perspective here, but I am reasonably confident that FreeBSD development is managed in the same way. The development model is "closed" in the sense that a cabal known as `the core' direct work on the kernel, and administer CVS access. This is more like a corporate development model than say Linux development. In fact Linux development is often termed a `benevolent dictatatorship' with Linus Torvalds in charge.
I certainly think that the *BSD way has some advantages - a more easily recognised controlling authority, and more centralised project planning. While this may sometimes hinder a true meritocracy (see the OpenBSD/NetBSD feud), this isn't any better in the Linux world (see the recent fracas between Hans Rieser and Alan Cox).
For a rewrite of Perl, some decisive steps need to be taken - and a more closed development model during the early stages could be beneficial.
Chris
Worst Article Ever (Score:2)
A somewhat misinformed dude on the net is somewhat upset about a recent announcement. That's not news, that happens a million times a day on the net! It's certainly not newsworthy.
Anybody who had been paying any attention to Topaz wasn't very suprised by the announcement. And it's been clear to me that the p5p mailing list has had far too much needless personality conflict on it in the recent past. Several noted and valuable developers dropped off the list because of such conflicts. Something new is needed.
Perl 6 may be strange and new, but it's a good thing, not something to fear.
Re:A mirrored copy, for your convenience (Score:2)
And his problem is? (Score:5)
As for the 'closed' planning stage (not coding - the Larry Wall statement simply mentions laying the foundations for Perl 6) - this makes sense. Allowing anyone to put in their tuppence worth as to how Perl should progress isn't best handled on one mailing list. I assume other forums would be used to solicit general feedback.
The closed development model seems to suit other projects well - the *BSD's being the most notable ones - so don't dismiss it out of hand for Perl.
Chris
It's real (Score:5)
" by chip (chip@valinux.com) on Thursday July 20, @06:10PM EST
I was there. Here are the facts as I remember them:
The only things actually decided at the ``closed-door'' meeting (actually we had a visitor and we didn't throw him out) were [1] that a rewrite could be attempted; [2] that it didn't have to be 100% compatible; [3] that one big list like p5p can't support such a large developer population.
Tom C. hasn't been excommunicated or anything, any more than I have. (I'm not on the list either, you notice.) Tom C. left the meeting soon after it started, so he wasn't around to volunteer when the chairs were being assigned. We shut down p6p because we don't want another p5p shark tank. The bootstrap mailing list works; I know that people have been using it. It's only a temporary list, anyway; that's why it has that name. Some (not all, I think) development lists will be closed, also to avoid the p5p-alike fate. The assignment list is real. I can't help what seems real to you.
Perl needs a spin doctor to fight the FUD spawned by anti-Perl bigots of various persuasions.
Meritocracy means that promotions go by ability. What makes you think that only the ability to code is the exclusive measure of ability that should matter? Management is, contrary to popular opinion, a real skill that some people have more of than others.
We already do hear from the community. They use mail and news and Slashdot and use Perl. But the non-traditional-hacker user base doesn't communicate through those channels. Consider Dick Hardt our ``speaker to suits''. As for your participation, well, you're welcome to stay."
People getting a little antsy to denounce stuff?
Corrected link (Score:1)
Re:Slashdotted (Score:2)
--
Your friendly neighborhood mIRC scripter.
if (ismoderator(reader)) hidemessage(this);
Re:OK, Guys, listen up (Score:1)
Re:The last language designed by committee was... (Score:2)
Ada was designed by committees
Excuse me, but Ada was not designed by committee. There was a large requirements gathering process, but the design of the language was by a small tightly focussed design team led by Tucker S. Taft at Intermetrics who had final say, and used it.
For what it's worth, Larry Wall publically said that Ada might be a good choice for the Perl6 implementation language.
The Topaz project chose C++ instead (which is probably fine) however the reason they gave for dropping Ada off the candidate list was due to bootstrapping worries which were, in my view, unfounded now that we have GNAT [gnat.com] (also see this [gnuada.org]). I hope they reconsider.
Also do not forget, it's "Ada" not "ADA". ADA is the American Dental Association, whereas Ada is a language named after Ada Byron, Countess of Lovelace, world's first programmer, thanks!
Chris Morgan
Re:It's real (Score:1)
That may have been an imperfect example, but it was typical of the sensationalism that has overtaken this site ("Miguel says Unix Sucks!" is pretty inflammatory), and the 644 comments posted to it show that it pays off.
Like I said, though, I find them mildly interesting, but the Slashdot staff needs to make a conscious effort to stop thinking of themselves as journalists when it's convenient.
Unhapiness Surrounding Perl 6 Announcements (Score:1)
This just in: (Score:5)
Yes you can (Score:1)
--
Niklas Nordebo | nino at sonox.com | +46-708-405095
Re:OK, Guys, listen up (Score:3)
Why didn't you talk to them in the first place?
There are just too many knee-jerk reactions in the geek communities to be believed. You're having a seizure over this, and had you had some patience, all this would not have been necessary. It's as bad as Bruce Perens flaming whoever it was before contacting them about a GPL violation. Had Bruce contacted them first, resolved the issue, and then posted a nice message about the whole thing, it would have made the geek communities look better. Same thing here. Get your information correct first, and then think, and then act.
When you're home and you burn the popcorn in the microwave and you see smoke, you don't run through the house scream "The house is burning, the house is burning!", you get the bag of burnt popcorn, toss it in the trash, open the windows, and apologize to the wife for burning the popcorn.
Just relax and take it easier. Everything works out in the end. Remember, you can't change the direction of the wind, but you can adjust the sails on your boat.
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
Re:It's real (Score:4)
These things are all vaguely interesting, and I don't dispute Slashdot's right to post whatever the hell they want. However, every now and again they claim some sort of journalistic status (check the story on cnet buying zdnet), and that claim becomes more absurd with every passing day. Perhaps it's time to change the name to "Slashdot: Advocacy for Open Source and the death of Intellectual Property, Think Like Us"
Re:The reality (Score:1)
Again, my apologies.
A proposal (Score:2)
The last language designed by committee was... (Score:4)
My point? Perl 6 won't please everyone. If it tries, it's going to turn into a giant hunk of bat guano. If you don't like Perl 6, stick to 5. If you hate Perl, use something else.
Re:It's real (Score:1)
I subscribed to both perl6-porters and bootstrap, and yes, perl6 was closed -- my mail to that addy bounded back (this was on the day of the announcment, by the by). Sounds like nothing but simple miscommunication; they were going to set on up and then decided not to go through with it.
Bootstrap works -- I, a NOBODY in the Perl world, posted to it (look for a post by woodrow.j.hillATncmi.com, if you're curious). So I don't know why Simon can't. Maybe he should get a Hotmail account.
I have high hopes of eventually helping out with doc-writing and the like; for now I'm just watching the interplay.
By the by, sending e-mail to bootstrap-subscribe@perl.org will get folks on, if you wish.
----Woodrow