More Kylix Information 112
A reader wrote to us with
a presentation made regarding Inprise's Kylix. More information goooddd.
"Kill the Wabbit, Kill the Wabbit, Kill the Wabbit!" -- Looney Tunes, "What's Opera Doc?" (1957, Chuck Jones)
Hemos Strikes Again (Score:3)
Which is why - of course! - Hemos's editorial comment is the shortest all day.
--
"Don't declare a revolution unless you are prepared to be guillotined." - Anon.
Good things to come? This is Borland. (Score:1)
Re:(O/T) Micros~1 for Linux? (Score:1)
Re:(O/T) Micros~1 for Linux? (Score:1)
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
People complaining that Pascal is restrictive have obviously never worked with a Borland product.
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Re:JBuilder's available now (Score:1)
Translation: It's dog-slow unless you have 192 MB of RAM and at least a 400Mhz processor.
I've tried using it on a 32MB P5/200 and it literally took 3 minutes to fire up the IDE (this is before doing any work at all). It refused to install with JDK newer than 1.2, and under the latest libc releases (although this is half Sun's fault -- their xfs recognition is *really* bad in jdk 1.3.
On a good note, Borland's support personnel in thier newsgroups are VERY VERY helpful; JBuilder is actually a good product (although, I like Simplicity better).
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
I lucked out and got one of the few 486s. Funny thing was that even that piece of shit was better than the computer I had at the time.
Re:Rapid Application Development... (Score:1)
First of all, Professional Delphi Developers plan developments just as much as any other professional developer. Code quality is much better in my opinion because you don't need to write screeds of code to achieve simple objectives.
Programming in Delphi is still an art, only you can concentrate on a higher level of abstration than with lower level languages.
Unlike VB and other earlier products I have never ever hit a brick wall with Delphi. If you really want you can include Assembler, so there is no real limit on being 'low level' if thats what you need.
If you are trying to write a device driver, or a operating system, or a flight simulator, perhaps Delphi is not the Language to pick, but for a vast number of apps Delphi really hits the spot.
Many applications I have developed were stand alone, and didn't need all the 'productivity apps' that go with MS. Apps like Point of Sale Systems, Factory Floor Systems, Stock Control etc, could all easily move to Linux. The Apps could be distributed with Linux tuned for the App, so no more configuring Windows for your App.
That said, I am also learning Java now. Why? Because Java is cross platform. Server apps I write in Java will be able to run on machines from Linux to huge Unix Servers. Thats not the Market I see Kylix in. I see Kylix making inroads into developing GUI's for Linux, not Middleware as much.
Re:I'll be looking out for this. (Score:2)
It's not KDE specific, you can write any c/c++ app with it, and it does a lot of cool things like automatically documenting your classes and generating autoconf/automake for you. I like having the class browser as well. It also has a decent debugger as well, though I wish it was more like DDD (Data Display Debugger), which has the capability to graph data.
Interestingly enough, I hated VC++ 6. I prefer PFE + CygWin for Windows. Fortunately I haven't had to do Windows programming in years...
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
Re:Slashdotted... (Score:1)
http://www.borland.com/kylix/ [borland.com]
Re:Sure, here's how pascal works: (Score:1)
If the Pascal compilers tells you you shouldn't do something - then it is that what you are trying to do is wrong - PERIOD ! Beside, any language that relies on pointers should be shot immediatly.
Re:Kylix - The gun to your head ? (Score:3)
You sound like yet another "I am the expert, do it my way, and no other."
Especially considering the loudest yell against M$ is that they take away choices, and Linux restores them, this is really hypocritical. And add another shot of hyprocisy for this choice from Borland being a burr under M$'s saddle, which would seem to make them natural partners in crime with the Linux zealots who scream against M$ being the anti-choice devil.
Gaaakkk.
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Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
But who knows. Operator Overloading is a frequently requested feature in the Borland newsgroups.
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Re:RAD != IDE (Score:2)
What makes you think he's a linux / Unix coder? He said he uses notepad and djgpp.
Personally, I've used VisualC++ and managed to make some pretty cool stuff easily, but now using linux I already have just about everything I need, and anything I need to program myself I can do in sh or perl with vim... but I'm not a professional programmer and my requirements are light.
I don't know enough about the "freedom" issues to have an opinion on whether this is a Good Thing yet, but an IDE from Borland sounds very useful for those of you who need to produce full-featured and native code GUI applications and don't have the time to learn the ins and outs of emacs/vim and GTK/Qt/Xlib.
"Free your mind and your ass will follow"
Re:Sure, here's how Java works (Score:2)
But you're not. You think you're passing in the object, but you are in fact passing a pointer (or reference, if you prefer), which is a different thing entirely.
By contrast, in C++, if you specify the argument type as Object, you get an Object, and if you specify an Object&, you get a reference to an Object
--
"Where, where is the town? Now, it's nothing but flowers!"
Re:Looking good, but databasing is a worry (Score:1)
You guys kill me.. (Score:1)
Re:Looking good, but databasing is a worry (Score:1)
As long as Kylix interfaces with decent SQL databases such as DB2 [which is said to be very good], Oracle, and Advantage, you are gaining NOT to be using Paradox.
M$ TROLL, ignore him (Score:1)
Re:A concern.. (Score:1)
This is unfortunate. I think what happened at the Conference --- I was there (speaking!) --- is that the emphasis got misplaced. We are not trying to turn ourselves into a Linux shop; we want to be a cross-platform shop, which means that Windows support is just as important as Linux support.
Re:Sure, here's how Java works (Score:1)
try to forget what C taught yo uand coem at this fresh...
In ALL cases java passes the value of a variable.
Its just that one of those variable-tyoes is an
object-reference vairable. You are still passing the VALUE of the object reference.
Your problem is you are used to thinking in terms of pointers, not references. Every place in memory has a pointer address (even primative types) thus it is soemthing different from a variable value. But references only exist for objects and ARE a primative type on an euqal footing with the other primatives.
Re:Sure, here's how Java works (Score:1)
Cogently put, you just have to remember that the ONLY way to access objects is via a reference. I'm not sure why the 'other' primitives aren't accessed via reference (a la wrapper classes) too, but I suspect performance might be a factor.
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Re:not in my experience (Score:1)
Re:Rapid Application Development... (Score:2)
I shudder to think back to some of the early Windows 3.1 developments tools... I was never able to finish any serious graphical application until Delphi 1.0 was released. And since then, I've never looked back.
The penguin's tattoo (Score:1)
PS: 42 being a reference to Douglas Adam's Ultimate Answer, for those who don't get it.
Kylix ... Linux ... and Programming (Score:2)
Besides that I really see no points in all the glamour of IDE's ... MS Visual C++ is non-impressive to me and I really dislike using it even though I'm required to at school. I find more functionality and freedom from loading up djgpp which is what I compile on at home ... and what do I use for an IDE? ... yep notepad ... Truly I see no reason for all these fancy IDE's except they put the tools you'd need to save time right there for you.
Does rapid prototyping mean code bloat? (Score:1)
If I am relying on a computer to help decide what code is need in my application, isn't it going to try and error on the safe side, and give me more than I need? Sounds like a fast way to make bloated code again.
Pardon me for griping. At least one used to be able to play Frogger(tm) in 64 KB of RAM in full color and sound on a C64, or even 16 KB in Black & White without sound on a Timex Sinclair 1000.
RADs just make things more efficient (Score:2)
You remind me of someone who would complain that painting was a purer art when each artist pressed his own papyrus, instead of buying it from a local merchant. Sure, you could do that if you wanted, but why would you want to? Get on with the important details.
Kylix - The Pandora Box for Bloatware for Linux ? (Score:1)
RAD is good. RAD is fab. RAD has all the rage.
But a RAD such as Kylix may spells trouble for Linux.
Not that Linux has no bloatwares of its own - netscape/mozilla and staroffices are two perfect examples, - but the easy-to-use RAD thingy like Kylix would inevitably introduces LOTS AND LOTS of fun-time programmers to Linux, and opens up the Pandora Box for Bloatwares that we all know too well how they have done to the Windoze arena.
My only hope is that the programmers in the Linux Camp are a better quality type, and that may cut down on the unnecessary bloats all of us are so darn tired of.
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
Re:Kylix ... Linux ... and Programming (Score:1)
Compiler, Linker, Editor. That's the classic programming model (trust me, a full-featured editor with regexps is a godsend.)
You can get versions of vim or emacs for Win32.Try one. Anyway... Truly I see no reason for all these fancy IDE's except they put the tools you'd need to save time right there for you.
Hmmm, a software package designed to give you useful tools to save time? Yeah, I don't see the point of that either. Huh?
RAD is not a bad reflection of our times. (Score:5)
Let me sum it up this way: If it was all about "Programming as a pure art form" we wouldn't ever be using Windows, X Windows or any other layer between us and the computer. We would write our own display drivers, window managers, (G)UI stuff, etc, etc ad nausum...
It has very little to do with the tools/languages/compilers and an awful lot to do with the programmer and his circumstances. It sound like that in your situation you are being pushed too fast, regardless of the tools you have at your disposal.
And that's all each RAD product is: Another (alibet very powerful) tool there for you to choose ot not choose.
In the past 4 years, I've written some code that I believe was fricking awesome code. Some of it was in Assembler, some in straight C++, some using C++ builder. And in the past 4 years I've written a smaller amount of code that would qualify as anti-awsome. Some it was in straight C++, some in C++ builder (None in assembler,
Borland's development environment and components don't take away my opprotunities for creative expression in code; rather they take away much of the drudgery. I wrote my own window-button-click code back in '89. I got tired of re-writing it by '92. Now I'm glad it's taken care of --- UNLESS- I have a reason to monkey with it - in which case the VCL lets me jump in and do just that. RAD never took away the cool/unique parts of the appiclations I wrote, they just let me spend a larger percentage of my time budget on them.
As a person experienced with both (Borland's) RAD development, and the more traditional approach I 110% agree with the following statement:
Apart from the Delphi developers, Kylix also brings hundreds of thousands of applications, built in Delphi today, ported with Kylix tomorrow. On the first night that Kylix ships, we'll probably see more new Linux applications than we've seen in the past few months...
Kylix will be a huge boon for Linux by providing the reason that will give non-geek users the opprotunity to try it: applications that mean something to them.
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
Of course, these are three of the worst misfeatures of the C++ language.
You forgot operator overloading. ;-)
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
Re:Rapid Application Development... (Score:1)
Case in point: I just grabbed a copy of Flight Gear. I used to think FGFS was an ambitious attempt that would never get anywhere, but DAMN! It's made an AMAZING amount of progress. It's really not that far from a widely useful and complete flight simulator. It hasn't been the subject of a rushed release schedule or marketing bullshit. It was created by people who think flight simulators are cool. They have applied their talents to something they care about, and the results are beginning to show. I suspect that the FlightGear project will produce a superior simulator most commercial offerings eventually.
Unfortunately, the keyword is "eventually". Businesses often don't like the unpredictable nature of free software development schedules, even if they can figure out a way to make money from it. That's the reason for RAD tools - they are driven by the companies that need to release products tomorrow, not coders who would rather do things right.
I'm not involved with the FGFS project; this is just an example (I'm a flight sim enthusiast). It could be equally applied to many free software projects.
-John
! ("Open" != $$) (Score:2)
can download linux for free. But, I do not agree that the open source movement means you cannot make money off of it. Too often people confuse free software with open source software and vica-versa. The GPL protects software from harm that
commercialism can cause it. If Redhat wants to sell something that can be obtained for free, I say, let them. It's in everyone's interest that they stay in business, so that they can continue to pay programmers, just like us, to do work on an OS that we all love. Not to mention that by buying a pre-packaged CD from redhat you get a manual, and tech-support, as opposed to a burned CD, and having to bug a friend for tech-support, in their already too busy lives.
not in my experience (Score:1)
Re:Rapid Application Development... (Score:2)
I used to be a C++ zealot until about 1997 when I got the first taste of Delphi 2, and I never went back. Sure, I had to switch languages, but I've made bigger sacrifices before. Besides, OP leads to a clarity and readability of code rarely achieved nowadays with C++, expecially when dealing with COM.
RAD from the perspective of Delphi gives you the best of both worlds: easy GUI design, as well as a great class framework and a powerful language. It ties the two together in such a slick and unobtrusive way; it's the way I'd probably do things even if Delphi didn't exist. Sure it adds some overhead, but then every framework does--even MFC, if you can call it a framework. If you want leaner apps, you pretty much have to drop to the API/message loop level, and we've all been there and didn't like it. Compared to something like VC++ that gives you RAD Light and forces you to keep your GUI and event handlers synchronized manually and always keeps you worrying about resource IDs, Delphi takes you to a whole other level of productivity.
The project manager at the company I used to work for was a great MS zealot, and his big mission in life was to convert the shop from Delphi to VC++. We were five developers churning out the code of ten and still were constantly behind schedule (talk about over-commitment of sales). We pleaded with him repeately to reconsider, explaining what a great work multiplier Delphi is and how such things are important to a small company. His retort was always that VC++ is the tool of the future and that tons of very smart guys work at MS and they can't all be wrong. He constantly denied that there were any productivity differences between Delphi and VC++ and accused us of just being irrational Delphi zealots (which probably was true, but with good reason we felt).
Anyway, these kinds of attitudes--influenced more by the great MS marketing machine than reality--are what is keeping Delphi down. I guess all of us Delphi supporters are hoping that Kylix will be the second wind for Delphi. With the momentum Linux has at the moment, and its lack of a serious RAD tool, Delphi should stand a decent second chance. And please don't anyone mention
Re:Good things to come? This is Borland. (Score:1)
For instance by having the driver linked right into the application?
IOW, *no* issues.
BTW, libc issues are just great. It is amazing how much breaks inside libc (2.1.3!) once you do slightly more advanced programming. Locale functions, for instance? Oh my god. Try reading the lates (2.1.95 beta) Changelog.
Re:Looking good, but databasing is a worry (Score:1)
Linux - OS of coding gods! (Score:1)
How come I cannot really believe that.
I have seen enough code (on *any* operating system) that increased my blood pressure. It is no better and no worse on Linux.
Re:Delphi/Pascal - D5 does overloading. (Score:1)
Not to mention that with a little pointer work - all you C programmers should approve - It can even be done in D1!
Life's a bitch, but so am I.
Agreed! (Score:1)
Re:Kylix - The Pandora Box for Bloatware for Linux (Score:1)
Why? You worry about bloatware and Kylix introducing "fun-time programmers" to Linux. In my experience, fun-time programmers are not the ones that produce bloatware, it's the commercial software companies. Lighten up, anything that encourages ppl to develop Linux apps is unequivocally a *good thing*
Thanks Borland! (Score:1)
Gee, thanks! Let's hope these new apps are better tested than that. Even if they are not commercial apps, we can hope that someone will port their $30 shareware file-splitter! Wow, it's about time we got some of those sweet windows apps linux has been lacking!
Re:Kylix & Linux Library Hell (Score:1)
Re:Thanks Borland! (Score:1)
Slashdotted... (Score:1)
Try CodeCommander... (Score:1)
Personally I use JEdit [sourceforge.net] nowadays, but if you don't have a decent amount of ram and a fast machine go for CodeCommander.
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:2)
And anyone who used TurboVision in BP/TP7 will have no problem with Delphi/Object Pascal. It's really powerful.
WAIT! (Score:1)
Content?
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Looking good, but databasing is a worry (Score:1)
Which Qt? (Score:1)
OK, Kylix will be Qt based, but on which version??? v. 2.x (which I really hope so) or version 1.4x (which I greatly hope NOT)?
All this talk about KDE integration and such leaves the question in the air, as the current "stable" KDE is Qt 1.4x based, but the new 2.x version is much, much better.
--
Marcelo Vanzin
Re:Lessons from the past? (Score:1)
The first release of Kylix is the Delphi 5 IDE with a new cross-platform component library called CLX ("clicks"). It is very cool. I've seen non-trivial Windows/VCL apps ported from Delphi 5 to Kylix in very short periods of time (a couple of hours to a couple of days, depending on the app).
There's no real difference between a programmer with no real Linux experience doing Kylix and a programmer with no real Windows experience doing Delphi. In both cases they're junior programmers who learn from the more experienced. The senior programmers, on the other hand, will have to rely on their C knowledge in order to glean useful information from the vast amount of C/C++ code that's available for Linux. This is no different than the early days of Borland Pascal for Windows and (later) Delphi.
Re:not in my experience (Score:2)
The language and/or IDE seems suspect in a few areas? Can't you really be more precise than that?
I come from a very strong VB background before moving to Delphi. I just couldn't continue with VB and let me tell you a few reasons:
First, speed. VB apps are dead slow. They may get some impressing numbers in carefully chosen benchmarks but otherwise it's a lot slower than Delphi. In anything heavier I got up to 10 times speedup by moving to Delphi. For example, get the ascii value of a char in a string. Delphi just gets the value with aString[index] while in basic you have to asc(mid$(aString$,index,1)) resulting in creation of temp string.
Second, braindead decisions. VB stores all strings internally in unicode. Try to send a string to a dll and you'll see how VB first converts the string to ansi. If you send an array, each and every string in that array are converted. That's a huge penalty and there's just no way you can change that.
Third, you can't do anything even a bit more advanced without kludges while Delphi provides clean ways to do anything. You just get used to working past the problems without understanding how dreadful that makes your code.
In the end, I hated myself for not changing earlier. Delphi gives you the same variable length strings that VB-programmers love. The syntax is not that much different either so it's easy to start. But when you understand the component model and learn real object oriented programming, Delphi is just wonderful. VB can never get there.
So, blame that programmer for spaghetti code and don't blame the tool.
Re:Slashdotted... (Score:3)
What is Project Kylix?
The goal of Project Kylix is to produce a high-performance Rapid Application Development (RAD) development tool for Linux. RAD here means component-based, two-way visual development of your user-interface (GUI), database, internet, and server applications. Development tool means a high-speed native Delphi/C/C++ compiler for linux. Project Kylix should also simplify the porting of existing Delphi and C++Builder applications between Windows and Linux
JBuilder's available now (Score:2)
Re:Rapid Application Development... (Score:2)
But before I go on, let's distinguish what we're talking about here. The RAD tool Kylix (and others like it) are not the total of RAD methodology. Your argument seems to be that the RAD methodology is bad, and seems to conclude that RAD tools are too. Both, however, have a place in development.
RAD tools belong in programming for the same reason the STL and design patterns exist; to keep developers from reinventing the wheel. They also allow junior programmers to be productive while their seniors concentrate on problems that cannot be covered by existing tools. I don't know about you, but coding static web pages bores me, and if some tool can competently code what our designers dream up then I'm all for it.
The RAD methodology also belongs on a programmers resume. Every time a project is desinged you'll find that the functionality your customer wants cannot be crammed into the time you have. So, rather than say "If I can't do it all I'm not going to do it," you compromise. You have your customer prioritize his requirements, fit the highest into your project, and offer to do the rest as a follow-up project.
Yeah, RAD methodology may cause programmers to rush things and that's bad. However, that's not the fault of the methodology, only it's implementation. If you think it's forced you to cut corners and reduce testing time, you didn't scope the project out properly to begin with. Every methodology will fail under that circumstance.
Re:Delphi does not support OPERATOR overloading. (Score:1)
I would imagine I am, as I cannot see a reason for operator overloading, and anyway, I still use Inc and Dec, as that is the reccomended Borland way, so I am unlikely to ever overload an operator.
One of the major points to using Object Pascal over C++ is readability, so altering the way an operator works would be (IMHO) a retrograde step.
Rapid Application Development... (Score:4)
Honestly, this is more of a pity post more than anything else. I work for a company that almost demands that i put speed ahead of quality, and i have friends in the same situation as well. Anyone else have this problem?
Re:A concern.. (Score:1)
Sure, here's how pascal works: (Score:1)
No, you can't write it like that.
But really, my way will work.
No it won't, 'cause I said so.
But who are you to say what works?
I'm the compiler. That's why.
Fuck fuck this. I'll use C instead.
I don't care. This is academia. I've got tenure.
Kylix & Linux Library Hell (Score:2)
What I'd like to see most particularly from this long-awaited "mass-production" environment, is a drastic reduction of (headaches from) the notorious proliferation of grossly overlapping libraries for Linux. With many more people using what amounts to a "standard" environment, one can foresee the library scene cleaning up these gray, fuzzy borders into more sharply delineated borders in which one library much more clearly does this, and another much more clearly does that, with way less ridiculous overlap from almost identical functions (not even functionality, but functions!)
Many of the best Linux programmers, seeing an opportunity to actually make some money selling excellent special-purpose libraries (sorry, rabid "free-software" dudes, some people want to make a living at what they do just like everyone else and not live on cheap noodles and dumpster leavings just to appease the Angry Gods of Open Source), will stop re-inventing the damn wheel and start creating original, useful libraries to meet ever-more specialized demands.
This could be a "very good thing" indeed, if the shipping product is not grossly overpriced. Too many of the best Linux programmers are poor students or very much part-time volunteers working on pet projects, who won't be willing to pay through the nose when they can obtain so many other, totally free, development environments.
(This has been something of a rant, I guess. Wading through hundreds of, and carefully selecting, Debian packages one by one by one, over weeks on-line, and discovering how very much duplication there is in basic Linux libraries even at Debian, did something weird to my mind).
Man, I hate this stinking cruft so, so bad.
Re:not in my experience (Score:1)
Re:Kylix & Linux Library Hell (Score:1)
Lessons from the past? (Score:2)
I do not wish to seem negative before Kylix is even here, but I really have to wonder. It doesn't seem to me that Borland/Inprise is staking their future on Linux to quite the degree that Corel did, but what if Kylix isn't what's its cracked up to be? How would that affect the future of the Linux community? I approach this matter very seriously, because my livelihood depends on it. I work for a development firm that is strongly grounded in Delphi, and there are more than just rumors about shifting over to developing with Kylix. It concerns me greatly that we will be depending on Kylix on Linux, when nary a Delphi developer in the house has any real world experience with either Linux or any type of Unix.
I, for one, will have to wait and see whether the buzz about Kylix is really worth checking into...
Re:A concern.. (Score:1)
With thoughts like these, who needs a brain? (Score:1)
"why is RedHat getting so rich off of a free product"
Who says they are "getting rich" ? Have you examined their revenue stream, comparing it to, oh, say, Microsoft, or Oracle?
"I'm sick and tired of people thinking they can make money off the open source movement"
You should not only be friendly and gracious to these "people", you should be thankful that these companies/people have devoted the resources they have towards bettering the Linux you use. (If you do) Where do you think the almost user-friendly RPM came from?
Have you in ANY WAY contributed to the "open source movement" other than to threaten to burn CDs?
Somehow, I doubt it.
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
IDEs (Score:1)
My question is simple though, has anyone tried out Codewarrior for Linux? Is it worth the time?
A couple of people have bemoaned the lack of good IDEs for Linux and other have all responded with the typical KDevelop replies. I don't like it that much but then again I only do C,C++ coding on small utility style projects so I am not the big project oriented style programmer that this thing was made for.
I just want a nice, easy to use editor with sensible color coding and easy compiling and debugging tools. I don't need the revision and project tools at all. Is CodeWarrior worth the time? I know a couple of Mac hacks and people stuck programming Windoze stuff that love the thing.
Delphi is cool (Score:3)
I've spent the last 1,5 years programming in Delphi and it rocks. I love the language. It's easy to learn, produces fast and small executables and helps producing high quality apps.
People coming from a Visual Basic background will notice that that Delphi is just as easy but it's a lot faster and really made the right way. The class libraries make sense and you can create new components really easy. After programming a few years in VB, there's no way I'll go back to the old monster. Delphi is also a lot easier than C. The language helps you avoid errors. I suppose Object Pascal is a good language to learn before C(++)
But the greatest thing about Delphi will be Kylix. It will be a pleasure to port our software for Linux. I really think Borland did a great decision. Kylix will give them a good start as Linux still lacks Visual Basic. It can really become the state of the art RAD tool for Linux and that will also help them gain markets in the Windows world.
Oh, you may also want to have a look at Lazarus [freepascal.org], which is open source. It looks like Kylix will be ready first but Lazarus and the Free Pascal Compiler [freepascal.org] look good. I already use FPC for small apps and hope to get a strong alternative for Kylix which would boost competition and quality in both.
Re:I'll be looking out for this. (Score:1)
I guess what would be really good is an open source Visual Slickedit... I'll take another look when they say it's done.
(Besides that, I don't like KDE or GNOME - plain X, with icewm for me)
Re:not in my experience (Score:1)
C'mon - be fair, it would have been the same if the programmer had been a COBOL (e.g - don't flame) programmer or used any other language - the best tool for the job is the one you know best, or the one most of you know.
I would dispute what some members of your team are convinced of - I use Delphi because it is a hell of a site easier to debug than C (or C++) and just as powerful IMHO.
I would say that your management have made a good descision based on their current skillset and hope that they would reconsider, if they found themselves with a different skillset.
Life's a bitch, but so am I.
But WHEN?!?!?!? (Score:1)
Re:WAIT! (Score:1)
>Content?
I'm sorry, you've obviously mistaken this site for kuro5hin.
Re:Sure, here's how pascal works: (Score:3)
Leaving aside for a moment the question of exactly how one would shoot a language, I must point out that pointers are not bad. What is is bad is the unthinking use of random pointer arithmetic.
It's worth noting that every language that is any use at all uses pointers: Lisp, Pascal, Java and of course C and C++. They differ in how exposed to the programmer the pointers are. Java, for example, has an annoying impedance mismatch where objects are passed by reference but things like ints and chars are passed by value.
--
"Where, where is the town? Now, it's nothing but flowers!"
Kylix... Kylie Minogue? (Score:1)
Re:Kylix is... (Score:1)
Kylix will also support C++ like C++ builder
in the next release. That's when the large
takeup will happen IMHO.
Note this will also mean that Inprise would
sell more C++ builder/Delphi for doze also,
as this would allow people to write progs
for both platforms, which will really be needed
over the next while.
Most people will not port from doze to Linux just
because of the enhanced stability etc. They will
need an easy transition to Linux that Kylix will
provide.
A concern.. (Score:1)
Rightttt...... (Score:1)
Re:Hemos Strikes Again (Score:1)
Regarding your
Re:Kylix & Linux Library Hell (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Kylnx.... (Score:1)
Re:Rapid Application Devel... and Urban Myths (Score:1)
Excellent points made. MS wogs have been talking about the demise of Borland for over 12 years. Every time they feel threatened the hype starts again. Just watch when Kylix gets out, every MS loyalist will start talking about how Borland is getting ready to go out of business or is gonna get bought by (insert your favorite company to hate here). And of course they heard from a friend of a friend at Borland.
Really pathetic.
Shadrack
Kylix vs. C++ (Score:1)
I was under the assumption that the tight-nit Delphi group (see the Delphi Super Page [borland.com]) existed as a support group for Delphi programmers to be able to keep up with what was going on in the C++ community. I could not have been more wrong.
Clumsily traipsing into the MSVC++ environment, I thought that the best thing to do would be to use the classes that were available - surely they followed the "standards" of the C++ community, and they would be the best tools to use. So, I innocently wrote all my tools based on CFile, CStdioFile, CString, and the like. What a frickin mistake.
CString is its own abomination, not available anywhere else on any platform, as far as I can tell. I was astounded to learn that the string library that MSVC++ pushes on people is not portable. Until I remembered that the "MS" is Microsoft. Of course they want you to use classes that can't be ported! Duh!
CFile crashes in situations that I've never seen fopen crash. How stupid is that?
Anyway, the thing that, on reflection, impresses me the most about Delphi is that when you pick a tool to use, you're probably using the right one. No, Borland doesn't subscribe to the ANSI Pascal standard - but I've never met anyone who prefered ANSI Pascal over the latest and greatest Borland product.
Yes, it'd be better if Delphi (read Kylix) were standard, free, portable, and already ported to every system on the planet. But I'll be happy with it, when it comes out. It'll instantly make me a /competent/ Linux application developer. Not necessarily a great one, but I'll be competent, instantly. Unlike my situation in C++. If I took my MSVC++ smarts, and tried to use them to code in gcc, I'd be lost. Completely lost. I'd essentially have to start over, and re-learn all the tools I thought I knew how to use. And I've seen the same thing happen the other way, too. Linux / gcc coders scrambling to get anything to work in MSVC++.
When a newcomer uses Delphi to code Windows applications, they are a lot more competent a lot more quickly than someone in the same situation, using MSVC++. I hope, hope, hope that the situation is the same with Kylix on Linux.
Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
Re:Delphi/pascal (Score:1)
Re:A concern.. (Score:1)
Not in the spotlight maybe, but hardly "practically non-existant" (IMO).
Even though it was officially an "unannounced product" the Delphi 6 beta was used in several sessions. And, of course, there were many of the usual Delphi sessions using D5.
Can you give more details about what gave you this impression? The lack of a Delphi 6 announcement or something?
-- CPRe:not in my experien.. now the threats begin. (Score:1)
Hmmm... So it's already started. The FUD from the MS wogs is gearing up for the release of Kylix.
Look out people,the better Kylix is, the worse the lies and inuendos will get. VB programmers will not idly stand by and allow their future to be threatened.
shadrack
The all important screenshots... (Score:4)
(O/T) Micros~1 for Linux? (Score:2)
Hmm. Has this been on slashdot before? Has anybody else heard this news? And why would Microsoft do this (if it's true)? What would they have to gain?
Certainly they do not want to assist in bringing a free OS to mainstream desktops, do they? Is there an evil plan behind this, or do they just need things to spend money on...
Mirror available (Score:1)
P.S. Is Hemos drunk? He's been posting some wierd stories today..
Re:Rapid Application Development... (Score:2)
There's one big problem that I have with visual GUI layout: you can't do dynamic interfaces that get layed out at runtime.
At the place where I work, we have been using a proprietary language for DOS called Clipper that is pretty primitive in the user-interface department, but that actually turned out to be a good thing in the long run, since it got us to write our own libraries to handle things right.
Unfortunately, we're now getting forced into more and more Windoze stuff, and being good unthinking Clipper loyalists (*sigh* you can tell what I think of this move), we're slowly switching over to the language CA currently is trying to sell: Visual Objects. It's one of these RAD things where you draw your interface forms using a graphical layout tool.
It sucks. We can't even do some of the same interfaces that we could with Clipper, because everything has to be known at compile time. You can't have the interface depend on the user's data or configuration. (Well, not unless you write your own GUI libraries instead of using the visual crap that comes with it. No one has done that yet.)
You know what approach works best? It's the one I've seen on the Amiga, with toolkits like MUI, BGUI, and ClassAct. The idea is that you write text (or build arrays) that specifiy a logical structure to the widgets. It's just as fast (maybe even faster) than using visual layout tools, more accurate, doesn't require any repository or non-human-readable "resource files", and the data structures can be built at run time if you need that. It fucking rules! So, naturally, since the Amiga had it in 1992, the Windows world should eventually move up to this step sometime around 2007.
(BTW, Linux dudes: is this this how toolkits like gtk and qt work?)
---
Two possible answers (Score:2)
2) Microsoft plans to put out substandard software for Linux and then claim that weaknesses in the OS make it impossible to provide good implementations. More chances to slam Linux while appearing to diversify to keep the DOJ happy.
Re:JBuilder's available now (Score:2)
I think it is very brave of you to even try running java 1.2 on a 32 MB PC. I recall running jdk 1.2 beta1 on a 133 Mhz machine (64MB, it doubled as a server machine). It worked fine, I could even launch the swing demo (for non Java people, this loads just about all available swing components). Of course the application response was terrible, but hey what do you expect?
However, with sufficient memory (192 MB is about the mininimum for JBuilder) it should work.
JBuilder refusing to install with a newer JDK is entirely borlands fault. Apparently they have some dependencies on non standardized parts. The windows version of JBuilder 3.0 came with its own JDK. Replacing it with the superior 1.3 beta from sun (there was no final version yet) wouldn't work and was not supported by borland. Even the released 1.2 did not work. You had to use the borland JDK. This was one of the reasons I refuse to use IDE's such as those provided by borland or IBM. You always get locked into obsolete software at some point. Don't misunderstand me, both deliver excellent products. But if you want to use the latest and greatest, you'll run into problems. Visual age for instance used jdk 1.1 long after 1.2 was released. Apparently it is now possible to use 1.3 with it.
So I have to agree with your last line: simplicity is better. Don't get locked into some IDE. Always keep the way open to use something else.
I'll be looking out for this. (Score:2)
I'm very happy to see them basing some of their product on Qt - in my (brief) exerience it's great.
I've been looking at all the Linux IDEs over the past week and they all have their problems. A lot just aren't available for PowerPC. Most are ugly, clumsy, or are simply a poor wrapper around GCC/GDB. The biggest problem is that integration of the debugger justs isn't as good as DevStudios. Maybe the best of all the ones I have used is Code Crusader/Code Medic - but at best it's 75% of what Microsoft offers.
The lack of a great IDE is a significant disincentive for people to switch platforms. Sure, we can all do makefiles and command-line gdb, but I don't know many professional programmers who don't acknowledge DevStudio as one of the best environments they have ever worked in... and once you've had the best it's hard to give it up, even if you do prefer X-windows to MS-windows.
Re:A concern.. (Score:2)
I spent most of the spring and summer working on features for a Windows product; we are not bailing out of the Windows market. However --- the goal is that the VCL which uses QT widgets will work on both platforms, and ship in both the Windows and Linux products, which has obvious implications for scheduling.
Robert West
Delphi R&D
Kylix is... (Score:3)
For all those asking (because the site is /.ed) Kylix is Inprise/Borland's version of Delphi (and later C++ Builder) for Linux.
It includeds a (Qt based) visual form designer, an OO-language (Object Pascal), great database tools and a cross platform OO class library called CLX (which supplements the Windows only VCL).
It will support application developement for KDE, GNOME (or at least GNOME aware, but non-GTK apps) and Apache modules.
More info at http://www.borland.com/kylix/ [borland.com]
I believe that Kylix is going to be a breakthough app for the Linux desktop. Many large companies have many apps written in Delphi (and VB). Rewritting these apps in C/C++ isn't an option, and Scripting languages like Python/Perl don't have the tool support for writing these GUI database applications. Kylix is going after that market, and knowing Borland's reputation for writing good programming tools, I'm looking forward to it.