Ask Robert Merkel About GnuCash Development 123
GnuCash is probably the best-known Linux accounting program for home and small business users. GnuCash development is now sponsored by The Linux Developers Group, Inc., a company formed this May by the core GnuCash developers, including Robert Merkel, who originally got involved with GnuCash because, he says, "I was sick of my father nagging me about the dud accounting program he used." Please feel free to ask Robert about GnuCash, guile, shared libraries or almost anything else, even cricket. (He's Australian and a major cricket fan.) We'll send Robert 10 of the highest-moderated questions, and post his answers as soon as we get them back.
what about online billpaying? (Score:1)
I'd love to convert my dad to a fulltime Linux user, but the biggest thing stopping him from changing over is Quicken. Why? Because of the functionality and accompanying ease of making online bill payments. It's pretty much just a matter of "I wanna pay this bill on this day. Please do that on that day when I dial up and retrieve my financial information (i.e., stock quotes, bank info, etc.)." Are there plans to add this kind of functionality to GnuCash and, if so, [I hate to ask this, but I will nevertheless] approximately when can I expect to see that kind of functionality? It would really increase the value of your software and, perhaps more than that, the value of Linux as a practical operating system.
Thanks.
w|f
Am I missing the point? (Score:1)
I've never had trouble keeping my checkbook balanced, and most of my regular bills (utilities, mortgage, etc) are paid automatically by direct withdrawal. So when I do write checks I'm typically not at my desk. It looks to me like gnucash would simply add to the hassle, not subtract.
Perhaps it is useful for a small business, but it (and quicken-like software) seem to aim a big part of their sales pitch to checkbook balancers. Can someone explain to me why it is such a great labor-saving device for such people?
GNU cash (for someone accounting literate) (Score:2)
Contradiction (Score:2)
Cheers
Starting a GPL-based business (Score:2)
Why... (Score:1)
---
Re:gnucash won't boot? (Score:2)
How far it will get is another story.
---
Re:Taxes (Score:2)
LWN had a feature on tax software on Linux a little while ago. There are a few projects out there.
---
So, um... (Score:1)
--
Forget Napster. Why not really break the law?
Online banking and OFX support (Score:5)
Re:gnucash won't boot? (Score:1)
Hmmm... you could use GRUB. GRUB can boot anything
Warney (GNU)Cashing in? (Score:1)
Re:Checkprinting support (Score:3)
This has actually already been done. You can print to either Quicken/Quickbook style checks or Microsoft money style checks (or you can create your own custom format).
Gnucash 1.6.0 really is getting to be a pretty full featured program. It's not much like the old X-Accountant program that you probably tried way back when.
Re:Taxes (Score:1)
Re:Small Business Accounting (Score:2)
-l
Small Business Accounting (Score:3)
So, here are my questions:
. Do you guys have any timeframe on the small business release?
. Have you considered creating a startup to fund development of the small business suite? There is a *lot* of potential here for selling services unlike Nautilus... tax updates, training, dead-tree manuals, etc.
Thanks for all the good code!
-l
Re:My Dearest Robert Merkel (Score:1)
Compare that to GnuCash which can do none of these things but still takes several hours to download, resolve library conflicts/dependencies, and install. How much is your time worth?
Re:Integer based currency type (Score:2)
No, that's not correct.
As an experiment, try this:
volatile float point_one, point_seven;
point_one = 0.1;
point_seven = point_one + point_one + point_one + point_one + point_one + point_one + point_one;
printf ("point_seven %s 0.7\n", point_seven == 0.7 ? "equal to" : "not equal to");
The program will print "not equal to", because of accumulated rounding errors in the LSBs of the float. This kind of miniscule inaccuracy is unavoidable when converting from base 10 to base 2, and it's absolutely unacceptable in heavyweight financial software. So the previous poster's question is quite valid.
What you really want for financial apps is string-based (bignum) or BCD (binary-coded decimal) math routines, where addition and subtraction always yield precise results. Intuit/Quicken has such math routines, refined and bullet-proofed over many years, which is one reason they have such a good reputation among financial institutions.
For personal finance, the requirements are less stringent. "Insignificant" rounding errors (are supposed to) get chopped before the user ever sees them. But bignum/BCD arithmetic prevents them from ever appearing in the first place, completely eliminating them as a possible source of error.
Actually, I may as well make that my interview question: Since the GnuCash engine is supposed to be general-purpose, what steps have been taken to assure potential big-ticket users that the unavoidable rounding errors present in binary floating point math will never have an unexpected effect on GnuCash's results?
Schwab
Re:Checkprinting support (Score:2)
I have a GPL'd program at http://lager.dyndns.org/freecheck/index.html that does this first part (make a blank check from REALLY blank check paper) - I'd love to see it integrated, but it's a perl/postscript mix, and GnuCash uses gnome-print, I believe...
Re:Why? (Score:1)
I haven't used GnuCash but from the little I know it is about managing accounts and finances, might not be at the level of MYOB but it will get there. As the article says it is a accounting package, which Excel is not and does not intend to be. Sure you can do it in Excel but the average joe blow who runs his own business, such as my Dad would not have a foggist in setting up Excel and it is easy to stuff up an account in comparison to an accounts packages.
Re:My Dearest Robert Merkel (Score:1)
http://www.appgen.com/products/upgrades.html [appgen.com]
Has anyone run both these packages on Linux to compare, and then compare against MYOB. My guess is MYOB has a lot more features, and is very stable on windows.
I have tried quicken for windows, but unfortunately it was always crashing. I have tried reinstalling windows and quicken, loading the most up to date patches, but to no avail. So we finally migrated to MYOB with no problems).
Re:My Dearest Robert Merkel (Score:2)
If it still fails, it would be good to submit some bug reports.. I know its a pain, but since it's a free package think of it as cost to using it. Or if you know a bit of programming do some constructive bug fixes.
I wish all open source packages the best, but I know a lot are still in development so I don't get as annoyed when it doesn't work, unlike when I pay a $100's of dollars for commercial software. I know this is not a good excuse, but I am sure with time GnuCash will be an excellent program. Such as DDD is excellent free debugger, GnuCash is will one day be an excellent account program (*we live in hope*).
Palm Conduit? (Score:5)
Re:Small Business Accounting (Score:1)
Try BANAL. yes it's text based, but it's powerful/fast and a proper accounting system not some pretty widget hack that can be made to do the job.. GNUcash is for home finances,(and works great for that) it is not to be used to run a business.
Re:To appeal to MS drones... (Score:1)
No, you're thinking of Gnumeric. Gnucash would need a skin that looks like MS Money.
It already looks better than the last Windows financial software I used, MS Money 2.0, although I don't know what MS Money $LATEST looks like.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
Re:Integer based currency type (Score:3)
1.6 is based on an integral type (gnc_numeric). This is one of the big changes since 1.4. I'm not sure if a round-off error was ever demonstrated to have occurred with the old code, though.
Caution: contents may be quarrelsome and meticulous!
GnuCash and Gnome Office... (Score:3)
Trends in the sport. (Score:1)
Care to voice an opinion?
Angus,
Barbados
Cricket? (Score:2)
XML and billing ... (Score:5)
LL
Integer based currency type (Score:5)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why? (Score:1)
Dumb fuck. Do you even know what you are talking about?
Does anybody else here remember when the troll's had some sense? Even the astroturfers are more intelligent than this lamer.
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
So, anyway, I know that it was 'only' five packages that were required. It's just that those five packages were a bit of a pain.
(BTW, I figured someone was going to mention the package vs. library deal. Should have mentioned in my question that I recognized the difference.)
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
So those libs should all be linked to
libanonymouscoward.so
or
libac.so
or perhaps
anonymouscoward.dll
(oops, anonym~d.dll)
?
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
Do all those libs really do something? (Score:4)
Multi-User (Score:4)
It would seem that a corporate offering would best be accomplished with this feature, and ensure some cash flow for your company.
On a similar vein, are the multiple dependencies meant to create a decision where there will be healthy installation contracts for you? (It's a joke, BTW)
Re:Cricket? (Score:4)
Multi-User. This is the problem that the GnuCash team can actually attack and do something about. I'm looking forward to 1.6 to play with that. Unfortunately, that's only at home, because my business needs at least two more functions.
Payroll. There are 35 employees here, in two different states, with SIMPLE IRA, insurance deductions, etc, etc. A solid payroll module is a must, and must include federal, state, and local tax tables. GnuCash could develop this, offer hooks, and then sell the files on the side, or in some other way make part of this a value added. The real joy is that most of the information is openly available.
Direct Deposit. This is related to payroll, but is enough different to warrant mention separately. This week, we started gathering info to allow direct-deposit. This is the one area where GnuCash might have the greatest trouble, as this requires working with banks. Banks have rules, and letting a bunch of raggumuffins into their systems and doing all kinds of '1337 stuff isn't covered by the rules.
FWIW, even though I asked two questions (one jokingly) about the dependencies issue, I got them conquered in one or two evenings at home. But for various reasons (cough)wife(cough), I bought a copy of Quicken over the weekend. It looks nifty, and has tons of features, but not many that I would use.
Re:To appeal to MS drones... (Score:1)
Oh, Money 2001? Try this link:
http://www.microsoft.com/money/dlxtour/gettingsta
Simon
Re:Have you thought about legal issues? (Score:2)
Custom Reports (Score:5)
voting process for most wanted features (Score:1)
Stock and Mutual Fund Analyses (Score:1)
Best,
Rob
Windows port (Score:1)
With libraries like SDL [libsdl.org] being built cross-platform, and now even seeing a Windows port of the GTK+ library, why not? How better to take customers from Intuit and Microsoft than to attack them on their own native platform?
I'm a Quicken user right now, but I would jump to a free (as in beer, speech, whatever) alternative for Windows if I had the chance (cause installing Linux is not my preferred course of action right now)
-ubermuffin
Re:Online Banking Plugins? (Score:3)
The specification can be downloaded here [ofx.net], bypassing the annoying requirement to provide information for their database before downloading.
Checkfree? (Score:2)
I have the old Checkfree software (the have since switched to MSMoney as being the default application) for bill payment for several years now. It has everything I need - simple reports, a check register, and bill payment. I have tried to think of a different system to use, but all such systems come down to a double entry style affair (since most involve some web-based bill payment system), which can be fraught with errors during data entry.
I want a system where I can enter all my transactions, electronic bill payments, checks, deposits - and then at the end of the month reconcile my bank statement/balance - like I do with the Checkfree software. GNUCash comes close (it does most everything, except the electronic bill payment)...
Worldcom [worldcom.com] - Generation Duh!
Re:money laundering (Score:2)
Then I roll around in piles of it, naked, while laughing maniacially.
will it ever happen... (Score:1)
lynx -source http//whatever | tar -xzvf -;cd *;./configure&&make install&&gnucash
I've been building code from source since '81 and gnucash is the most messed up build I have ever seen.
in all fairness... (Score:1)
Feture addition (Score:2)
Re:Trends in the sport. (Score:1)
money laundering (Score:3)
Money Laundering through Casinos [orlingrabbe.com]
How to Launder Money in the Futures Market [orlingrabbe.com]
Money Laundering 101 [orlingrabbe.com]
Documentation (Score:5)
Re:Palm Conduit? (Score:1)
PalmCoins (http://palmcoins.sourceforge.net?) is currently working on a conduit that will sync their PalmOS program with GnuCash. With the new XML file format, I'm thinking this wouldn't be that hard at all.
Personal Plug: I'm working on an accounting project called GnuLedger (http://webaccountant.sourceforge.net), and while it's still in it's infancy, and while this is rather vapourous, I plan on making the PalmOS client fully compatible with GnuCash (or as compatible as I can make it).
But I hope that helps some...
Mike.
Suitable for a UK Based company? (Score:1)
Web Browser... (Score:1)
Re:Cricket? (Score:1)
maybe i need to get out more.
Re:GNU cash (for someone accounting literate) (Score:1)
Home Banking (Score:1)
So, how easy is it to interface with other applications? Delimited, fixed-width, or XML file?
--Matthew
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
gnucash won't boot? (Score:3)
I've rerun lilo, but now my computer won't boot. Is this a known bug, or should I post it to your World Wide Web site?
Thank you
Re:Cricket? (Score:1)
Re:GNU cash (for someone accounting literate) (Score:1)
GnuCash has been double-accounting based ever since. In fact, even xacc -- on which GnuCash is based upon -- did use double accounting, IIRC.
You should definatelly try GnuCash if you already know your way in double accounting.
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:2)
This is a good thing,IMO, so developers are more free to write good software. The only thing they should care for is that they should stick with stable versions of used library/packages as much as possible, so avoiding to create troubles for the integrators.
Re:Taxes (Score:1)
To appeal to MS drones... (Score:2)
You will at least need a skin that makes it look like Excel. (Just like MS did to WP, etc.) Are there any plans for this?
Re:Reoccuring Transactions (Score:1)
Re:Small Business Accounting (Score:3)
- A small business release should be based on a SQL-compliant database such as PostgreSQL, inlcuding a client-server model. Is this in your plans?
- Have you considered adding simple invoicing to GnuCash (ala Quicken Home & Business) as an intermediate step?
- To add to the poster above, I could easily sell me & my clients 2-5 copies of a Gnu cash small business release, at $200 each, if it came up to the quality of Peachtree or better.
-Josh
I want the ability to do invoices! (Score:1)
Ashes (Score:1)
I'm a big England cricket fan. So for your chance to gloat, how much did you enjoy the Old Trafford ODI? And what will the score in Ashes be?
I once used Microsoft Money (and quite liked it) (Score:1)
My question is can a fuctional, but lacking in eye candy product, compete effectivily against its commercial opposition? This question could equally be posed against, say, RedHat 7.1 Vs Windows XP. The thing is these company's have so much money they can lavish all sorts of cute (and sometime usefull) features that the free software movement would be hard pressed to match. I would guess that the best example of this is outlook. This is _very_ popular amoungst many of my users and the lack of a calandering client/server with equivilant features is a major obstacle is my quest to be NT free.
BTW
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
As well he should be.
Personal software should be easy to use. If it's hard to make GNUcash work, then GNUcash has a problem.
--
Simplify, simplify, simplify! (Score:2)
Currently I use Wine to run Quicken Deluxe on my RedHat box, and it almost works. I've never been able to get the printer to do anything from Wine, and although I've read floppies to generate backups, I can't get Quicken/Wine to write them.
I have looked at GnuCash several times in the past, and it has yet to impress me enough to change due to several features:
- Reporting facilities: perhaps it's changed in more recent releases, but I could not find any way to customize or organize reports. I prepare reports for session meetings, and it would be nice to be able to customize the reports.
- User Interface: GnuCash seems to treat each budget item as a seperate account from which transactions are made. While this is probably the "correct" way to do it, I find it extremely difficult to handle the mountian of split checks I write each month. I have come to enjoy Quicken's much simpler handling of split checks.
- Data Interoperability Although GnuCash can read QIF files, it can't write them. I can imagine that one day I'll hand over the checkbook to somebody else; I would be remiss in locking them into a particular checkbook manager. By giving GnuCash the ability to interoperate with other checkbook managers, it makes the data more available to everyone. Let's not forget: the data is always more important than the application that it was created/edited in.
I do understand and appreciate the effort that goes in to writing a full-strength application like GnuCash. I just have philosophical differences with the choices that the authors have made.modular architecture (Score:3)
The opposite development paradigm (championed by klunky kitchen-sink packages like Microsoft Office) tends to be less reliable, slower, more expensive, more difficult to maintain.... you know the rest.
Applications like GnuCash seem to follow the monolithic paradigm. Would it be easier (or otherwise benificial) to break GnuCash up into a number of smaller, simpler applications? For instance, a database and a set of GUIs, with data analysis tools implemented as console programs. That way, with a little knowledge of shell scripting, you could put together a tool to generate virtually any report you wanted.
Many of the previous questions asked questions about the possibility of adding certain features to GnuCash (PalmPilot integration, online banking, XML interfaces for finacial tools...). If GnuCash were more granular, it would be very easy to make the system work with Other applications - easy enough that most Linux users could probably hack together what they needed to make it work.
The problem, of course, is that more granular architechures are often harder to use and configure for new users. UNIX mail, X, and network configuration were all things I agonized over as a new user, mainly because they are hybrids cludged together from very different bits of software.
My question is this - can you have the best of both? Can you make a usable application as large and complex as GnuCash, but still preserve the UNIX "one-function-per-program" design that makes it so extensible?
--
Re:money laundering (Score:2)
How to Bribe a Governor & His Wife in the Futures Market [orlingrabbe.com]
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
Oh wait you use one of those other distros.
Gawd I love Debian.
Re:Do all those libs really do something? (Score:1)
I love Woody and have had really good luck with it.
Re:Well, yes- in stable - : not GnuCash 1.6 !!! (Score:1)
Cricket? (Score:1)
Seriously, though, how do you think GnuCash really compares to Money and Quicken? How would you try and convert the Windoze fans away from those major programs?
Illuminati & Mafia (Score:5)
Re:Checkprinting support (Score:2)
Checkprinting support (Score:4)
Cricket (Score:1)
---
Have you thought about legal issues? (Score:3)
In this litigious society, have you spent much time thinking about possible legal issues around GnuCash? A lot of people get weird when money's the issue, and I can imagine someone trying to sue because:
- A bug in GnuCash caused an incorrect balance and thus overdrafts on the account.
- A bug caused private information (such as a bank balance) to be exposed to people it shouldn't be.
- A bug in online banking caused money to be lost, mistransfered, etc.
Obviously, bugs are possible in all software, but it seems like the intended audience for GnuCash is slightly less technical and perhaps thus less tolerant of bugs.
These same problems are faced by the commercial venders too, but they have armies of lawyers to help them out. I don't know how an open-source project would handle a lawsuit against it, and I'm wondering what you guys have thought about on this issue.
Taxes (Score:5)
os x port? (Score:2)
Cool stuff, but... (Score:5)
Though my question is about GnuCash specifically, I guess it does address the larger issue about how Open Source projects compete for market share and mind share with the products of well-capitalized corporations that can form strategic partnerships that (despite the shortcomings of Closed Source software generally) offer real value to consumers. Any thoughts?
Thanks for taking the time to respond,
- Brad Heintz
--
Online Banking Plugins? (Score:5)
Would it be possible to incorporate some sort of perl plugin to GnuCash that would go out to a bank's web site, access the banking account information on the site, access the relevant data and then format it in a way that could be pasted into the existing GnuCash data?
My bank, Region Bank, allows customers to access their checking account via a web browser. I hate to see this resource going to waste.
Why the GPL? (Score:5)
Learn cricket in 5 easy steps!! ...... (Score:2)
G'day Robert!!
(aka Robertspionage**)
I would like to say that the name GnuCash sounds really cool for a finance program! It sounds so much better than OldCash!
Unfortunately I have no money, therefore I have no real questions to ask you and any questions I did ask would make me look stupid.
However, I feel that I need a question to avoid being moderated offtopic so - "Does GnuCash have turbo and come with a subwoofer?"
Okay there, now onto the important stuff, being a cricket type guru/tragic yourself, I thought I would pass on my helpful tips learnt over the years when explaining cricket to Americans:
I call it the "5 Easy Steps to Learning Cricket and Changing your Life". The movie is due out later this year.
1) Use fuzzy abstract concepts like "ball" and "bat". Explain that two people from one team have the "bat" at any time and there are 11 people on the field from the *other* team who are allowed have the "ball". These people with the "ball" want to eliminate the people with the "bat".
2) In normal play, the "ball" is thrown at the "bat", similar to this game you may have heard of called baseball - except in cricket you are allowed to hit the person - in fact it is encourage and looked upon as *good tactics* ;-).
The people with the "bat" try to hit the ball to the edge of the ground (a 4) or out of the ground (a 6).
3) Then explain the nitty gritty, that "silly mid on" is actually a fielding position etc, the importance of the box ;-)
4) Emphasise the fact that England are the worst cricket team on the planet, just to dramatise it. Emphasise the fact that New Zealand are the second worst team on the planet, just to add humour.
5) Finally, explain the joys of a cricket game that lasts 5 days and still gets no result, the joys of no more than 30 seconds for ad breaks while a cricket game is on, the joys of waking up a 2am to watch international cricket cause no other country in the world is in your damn time zone, the joys of spending a whole day watching cricket and feeling like your doing something, the joys of trying to drink one beer for each 4 or 6 hit in a limited overs match......
Well, gotta cruise, good luck with that cash thingy I've been hearing so many good things about!
Cheers,
Benspionage
** Aussies have found a glitch in the english language where you can add "spionage" to any name in the world and it still makes sense, try it at home kids!! Bobspionage, Davespionage, Brittany Spearspionage)
Re:Online Banking Plugins? (Score:3)
I'm not trying to plug my company too much here, mainly I too would like something as solid as Quicken2k for Linux as I am finding I enjoy using Linux much more than Windows as of late. I haven't totally ditched Windows for just this reason (lack of a really solid financial tracking tool). I've heard of GNUCash recently, but haven't yet had the chance to try it out. My question is:
Since this is under the GPL license, and a lot of online banking is under proprietary licenses (my company, banks, PayPal, etc.), do you think that any type of medium can be worked out to incorporate the two licenses into a fully functional online banking type product. (I realize you're not a lawyer, but just wanted to know if any of your developers have explored this type of difficult question, and come up with answers and/or solutions).
Accounting firms? (Score:2)
Dumb Question (Score:2)
that's wrong (Score:2)
The comparison you want is "to_digits(point_seven,2)==to_digits(0.7,2)", where "to_digits" is defined as float to_digits(float x,int digits) { return float(pow(10.0,-digits) * rint(x * pow(10.0,digits))); } . If you run that, you will find that it gives you the expected answer.
BCD is actually less accurate than using floating point numbers with equivalent numbers of bits. People use it because it's easy to define and understand.
Re:Integer based currency type (Score:2)
That's not a problem. For example, you can simply express amounts as cents, not dollars. There are other ways of addressing this as well.
To sum it up: floats are ok in scientific calculation, but they aren't in integer calculations.
Machine floating point numbers are exact for integer calculations as long as the integers involved have no more bits than the mantissa (23 bits for IEEE single precision, 52 bits for IEEE double precision).
Except for the US national debt, you are unlikely to ever get even close to the limits of accuracy of IEEE double precision floating point in the representation of dollars and cents.
The omnipresent business model question (Score:2)
Cricket and GnuCash (Score:2)
-- Azaroth