Can Software Schedules Be Estimated? 480
"A recent academic paper Large Limits to Software Estimation (ACM Software Engineering Notes, 26, no.4 2001) shows how software estimation can be interpreted in algorithmic (Kolmogorov) complexity terms. An algorithmic complexity variant of mathematical (Godel) incompleteness can then easily be interpreted as showing that all claims of purely objective estimation of project complexity, development time, and programmer productivity are incorrect. Software development is like physics: there is no objective way to know how long a program will take to develop."
Lewis also provides a link to this "introduction to incompleteness (a fun subject in itself) and other background material for the paper."
Of course they can be estimated. (Score:5, Insightful)
Software development is not a science in the normal sense. Designing large software systems is an art. It cannot be pigeonholed. Stroustrup has a lot to say about this when he describes the 'interchangable morons' concept in the 2nd edition C++ book.
Anyway, read Death march by Ed Yourdon, and the mythical man month by fred brooks, and antipatterns, any time someone asks you for an estimate say 'two weeks' and then bullshit from there on.
That is how it works in the real world. The numbers are essentially meaningless, but the bean counters and suits have to justify their existance somehow :-)
Can you imagine asking Linus when 2.5 will be ready ?
Yes but No (Score:1, Insightful)
Now when it comes to the actual work, forget it. Unless your project management is extra tight, which is unlikely from all the places I've ever seen, you will have too many unknown variables, such as:
Sure, you can get an estimate, maybe to about 30% of the actual time it will take, about 60% of the time. Its certainly an inexact science though.
Fixing the endpoint? (Score:3, Insightful)
So the easy response is that bad management in general, and bad project management in particular, is responsible for software project failures. While this is no doubt true, the next question has to be, why do software projects have such bad project management?
I don't have a good answer, but one thing that occurs to me is the lack of a fixed endpoint. When an oil refinery ships its first load of POL, it is complete. When an aircraft carrier launches its first plane, it is complete. But the amorphous and mallable nature of software means that it is hard to define an exact endpoint, and very hard to avoid changing the definition of the endpoint as the project proceeds. So things keep "creeping" along until disaster occurs.
sPh
Projects != R&D (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's exactly the sort of attitude that has caused the sort of spectactular failures of software projects to be accepted as the norm. Software Engineering is *not* "hacking" or "coding" or "programming", it's *engineering*, like building a bridge or a skyscraper. Yes, those projects go over time and budget too sometimes, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
That is how it works in the real world. The numbers are essentially meaningless, but the bean counters and suits have to justify their existance somehow
The problem is endemic in the industry. The other Engineering professions require rigorous accreditation before they let practitioners loose in the world, like the PE (in the US) or the Charter (in the UK). But the software industry hires anyone, and lets them get on with whatever they do, with no real management or oversight or planning.
In a well analyzed and properly planned project, the actual coding stage is little more than data entry.
Estimates based on motivation (Score:4, Insightful)
My company develops turn-key systems. Sometimes we also develop custom solutions for our customers. Our customer base has increased steadily after the dotcom crash, when we switched from products to services. One of the reasons our customers like us is that we don't bill projects by the hour. We will the project on a fixed price, not to exceed, basis.
The programmers who work with us on a contract basis don't bill us by the hour either. After we have the design and we distribute tasks and prior to submitting the final estimate, we ask contractors to place a fixed bid.
We've done six major projects like this since March, and in all cases we finished within budget and on-schedule, and the systems are currently in production. They are all mission-critical systems running in either robotics environments or high-availability networks.
Our economic motivation is then to do things well and quickly in order to increase our profits. That also enables us to move on to the next project faster than slaving over some customer in order to bill the maximum hours.
As far as development techniques go, we adopted XP earlier on and it's working for us.
Cheers!
EThere are four parameters (Score:3, Insightful)
- Quality
- Quantity
- Deadline
- Costs
In a competitive environment with humans involved, up to three can be specified. Not four. Good examples are:
- Many guidelines for managing software projects tell you to reduce quantity when you get near deadline.
- Some customers have a specified budget but really don't know how much software they can get for that money. They prefer to have costs fixed than to have quantity or deadline fixed.
- Sometimes deadline is so important, that costs may 10-double in order to reach that deadline, and quality and quantity may get reduced a lot in order to finish the project.
It is extremely important to realize the meaning of all four parameters before you can talk about estimating project schedules.
Lars.
The short answer: no (Score:3, Insightful)
The biggest problem I've seen is requirements creep. Most often, you don't have a firm set of requirements to start with. Management and programmers both have a tendancy to view requirements documents and other formal software engineering practices as superflourous. The problem is that without a firm set of fixed requirements, you are always trying to hit a moving target.
Another problem is attitude, mostly on the part of management, but programmers are guilty too. One faulty attitude is that we are conditioned to expect immediate results. There's also a prevaling attitude that there is never enough time to do it right, but there's always enough time to do it over. This leads to undocumented, unmaintainable masses of code that either gets thrown away after a while.
Even worse, you wind up with garbage code that SHOULD be thrown away and re-written from scratch, but winds up getting patched and modified for years. I can't tell you how many times I've had a manager say "there isn't time to rewrite it, just patch it". That would be OK if you are only going to patch it once -- but you wind up patching the same program a half dozen times, and it winds up taking twice as long to do all the as it would have if you had just rewritten it from scratch.
Re:In all seriousness, this is the wrong place to (Score:2, Insightful)
If you need that stuff, design it in from the start. Too many programmers worry about general design to make future expansion easier, while leaving out consideration for real, hard requirements that won't be implemented until later in the project.
And to avoid the problem with really bad bugs that are responsible for the (double it and add 5) estimation, take a little extra time to write exhaustive testing (as far as possible) of each module, indeed each function, to make sure it doesn't do something wrong when given values out of "happy path" input range.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're building your 57th e-commerce web site, which works roughly like the 56 you build before, you can estimate very, very well, and you can reduce coding to nearly data entry.
If you're solving a problem of unknown scope, which your team has not solved before, which the solution is not clear to, and analysis has revealed some but not all of the details, etc., then you are not very right.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:2, Insightful)
If the software industry were saddled with the same level of process that exists in other engineering professions, we'd still be using character-based software, the web and the internet as we know it today wouldn't exist and most business would still be conducted on paper.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:5, Insightful)
After ~15 years in the industry, I've found that one thing that makes a huge difference is the experience of the team, and the familiarity between the actual engineers and the project management.
As you have experience solving a variety of classes of problems, you can predict with increasing accuracy the time it'll take you to solve later problems. And as your management sees you getting increasingly accurate in your estimates (based on past projects) they can create better and better schedules and estimates for the project as a whole, and have a better intuition for the gray areas of development, or the greener developers.
Projects that tend to go off into the weeds have included (in my experience) wholly green teams, wholly green management, or areas of development that are outside the areas of expertise of one or both.
Re:Fixing the endpoint? (Score:3, Insightful)
Note also the enormous difference between building the first 747 / skyscaper / nuclear submarine and the 15th or 1500th of each.
Of Course They Can Be Estimated... (Score:2, Insightful)
Home of
It's all a bunch of bull.. (Score:2, Insightful)
He very carefully laid out the algorithm - I don't have my textbook handy, but it involved elementary mathematical operations on estimated man hours, estimated lines of code, estimated overhead, etc., then at the end -- and I am not making this up -- they multiply the result by a "magic number".
Where did you get the magic number, oh sage of the ivory tower? Well, we just made it up -- it seems to work.
It hit me then that the whole discipline of estimating cost completion is all bullshit. You might as well be estimating with a crystal ball or divining the future with chicken bones. Since I've been working, the best advice I've gotten so far has been "take how long you think it'll take and double it".
This is why software projects fail (Score:2, Insightful)
In software, however, most projects do not rely on known procedures. It is fairly easy to estimate the costs of creating 1000 different window layouts, which is a known procedure, but it is a very difficult task to estimate the costs of implementing the layouts.
If software would use as much energy on estimating each new task as construction projects did, developing software would be extremely expensive. Just imagine that you had to do a while-loop according to an ISO standard, and another while loop according to another ISO standard, because the two while loops were in different functions that were categorized differently by a third ISO standard. Instead we hire a bunch of programmers and make them program themselves. Sometimes we do it a little more complicated, like Open-Source, Xtreme Programming etc., but it's still a bunch of programmers hacking around.
The trick is to manage it anyway - and that's why managing software projects will always be risc management and not very predictable.
Lars.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:2, Insightful)
An experienced software project manager can usually be quite accurate in estimation of effort for a well analyzed software project.
This, however, highlights a few problems in The Real World:
Am I too pessimistic? I don't believe so.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly the sort of attitude that has caused the sort of spectactular failures of software projects to be accepted as the norm. Software Engineering is *not* "hacking" or "coding" or "programming", it's *engineering*, like building a bridge or a skyscraper. Yes, those projects go over time and budget too sometimes, but they are the exception rather than the rule.
"
But that's simply not true. Writing software of anything that is non-trivial is not the same as straightforward engineering. For a start there is the rate of progress, how many people have 30 years + experience of building 50 story + buildings. How many people have 30 years + experience of dealing with terabyte + sized datasets?
When buildling software previous code can be reused for a very small amount of effort, when building skyscrapers the previous design can be reused for only marginally less effort than the last one.
Compare the difference between building a C compiler from the gcc source and the world trade centre from the blueprints.
Essentially the estimate is
Time = [time to do the bits we know how to do [accurate] ] + [guess for the bits we don't know how to do [inaccurate] ]
With software, the first part of that expression tends towards zero since most things we know how to do we can reuse code, whereas with building it remains a large accurate estimate.
The error here will be of the form
Error = [variance of inaccurate terms] / [total]
For the example of a skyscraper whos construction is mostly a known method this will tend to a small number since the inaccuate term is much smaller than the accurate term, but for software with reuse of all the known methods of coding this will tend to 1 - i.e.. 100% error in the estimate and hence the conclusion that it's worthless to even bother estimating.
In my company we can accurately estimate how long projects will take providing the projects are mostly identical to ones we have done before, and if this is the case it generally costs the client more in programmer time in meetings to dicuss the cost of the job than it does to write it.
Re:Be afraid of the unknown (Score:3, Insightful)
Figure the time to do the parts I understand.
Count the parts I don't understand. Allow a very long time for each of them.
Add it all up, then multiply by 3
Re:Estimates based on motivation (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:2, Insightful)
We'd like it to be so, but it ain't.
The behavior of bridges and skyscapers is determined by classical physics, which allows us to make precise predictions.
The behavior of computer programs is governered by complexity theory, which tells us that any reasonably complex program has non-predictable behavior. And the manageability of software development depends on human understanding and appreciation of code - there's an aesthetic factor.
Certainly things could be better...the fact that something has a large component of art doesn't mean that there aren't areas of mastery for a practitioner to study. But at its heart, the creation of complex software requires a creativity and intuition that cannot be set to a timetable.
(Yes, one can "engineer" art to some degree - popular music being an example, where teams of marketers follow formulas to construct the next boy band. But that does not result in a quality product that stands the test of time.)
But the problem still applies to the design phase.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:2, Insightful)
2 weeks (Score:3, Insightful)
Gung-ho programmers are optimists. Couple optimism with the ennumerable factors involved in programming a non trivial application and you will get what we have today.
By the way. I am a programmer and I have little to no confidence in my time-estimation abilities, or anyone elses. It has taken me 14 years to come to grips with that.
Software Development is like DESIGN! (Score:2, Insightful)
People like to compare the software development process to manufacturing. But people also ignore the fact that before manufacturing there is design, which culminates in the first version of the object. Manufacturing produces versions 2 and beyond.
The process of developing software is more like the process of producing the ultimately detailed design. For software, manufacturing is a mechanical process -- duplicating the initial working version.
Now, with this view, ask how often the design for a product is completed on schedule, especially for a large complex product like an airplane (or the Intel Itanium processor :-)). I don't believe (I have no firm data) that the experience is a lot better than the experience for large software projects.
Chris
Estimation is very possible. (Score:5, Insightful)
If we built homes like software we would all be living in the street, penniless...
The major issues I have seen revolve around a lack of scope and cost control. In many cases it is because there is little penalty for being late or over budget. In cases where penalties exist it is often beneficial to then over estimate the effort or cost required. Then once the money is approved, using it is becomes easy.
Going back to the analogy consider the following:
Scope
If you were building a house, each piece has a specified cost, known in advance to a very large degree. In addition, altering the scope itself often incurs a penalty, because the work is not done by the owner. You plan a three bedroom, 1.5 bath home. Midway through planning you decide to make it a two bath home instead. The architect will charge the "re-scoping" fee and the builder will add the material fee. Now do the same after construction has begun. The architect gets their fee, the builder adds the material and resource costs, plus a "revision" fee for changing your mind after construction begins.
During a software project, it is common for individuals to approach the developers and ask to expand the scope. This would be analogous to approaching one of the work crew and asking them to just add the extra half a bath. The difference is the work crew would get fired, and the developer gets bonus points for adding the feature, either directly or indirectly.
If the developer chooses not to do it, or pushes them to the project manager, the client may label them uncooperative or difficult to work with. The project manager not wanting to be labeled either may coerce, cajole, or beg the developer to accomplish it, without a scope revision. Failure to do so by the developer results in real financial impact at some point, and offers little incentive to hold the line.
Cost
I call this the "Porsche syndrome".
I go into the Porsche dealership and see a new 911 Carrera Coupe. Smiling the dealer offers to sell it at a deep discount, with options and accessories $84,000 (U.S.). Whewwww baby!!! I cannot afford that. "Look," I tell him, "my wife will never approve that, you need to get it down to $28,500 tops." Would any of us expect to have the price cut down? By half or more?
Okay, how about "Look, what will it take to get it under $30,000? Seriously now, what do I have to give up" As the dealer is escorting me to the door he explains the only way I will get this car under $30k is with a mask and a gun or from a scrap metal dealer.
Yet, daily we go to developers and tell them to do the same. We ask for an estimate and then go back with "This is too much, it needs to be smaller or it won't get approved!" --Insert blank stare here--- The idea that if something cannot be cost justified it should not be done, is often lost in the "request" itself.
To nearly guarantee a project is on budget and time requires things many companies are unwilling to provide. Strict scope control procedures, with oversight by the person responsible for the money. That means each change, regardless of how trivial must be approved by someone above the project management team with business justification. It also means that requests for scope change cannot be made to developers directly, by anyone.
I was very happy with the people who built my home. When speaking to many of my friends and coworkers who built their homes, they describe it as a process akin to having their flesh removed. Everything required such effort and detail that many would not do it again.
Most of them were looking for the relationship to be like one at the office. We all want to get along and help each other out. This is not a commercial arrangement, and when we put the commercial context around it, we see it many offices lack structure.
Internal organizations can be setup like commercial ones, but it is usually unwelcome as the perception is everyone should be working for the greater good of the company and this has the appearance of bureaucracy. Even if inaccurate, everyone "wanting to get along" prevents it from being implemented.
Re:Right place to Ask (Score:3, Insightful)
Likewise, I've been developing (C++) for a living for about 12 years now and I've come to some conclusions:
There are estimating techniques/metrics which will work. They depend upon going round a few times to "calibrate" and consistent application. "Task Points" was a good one - basically break your use cases down and down until you have a series of one-line statements about the system. Multiply these by your magic number and that's the estimate. This, like all estimating techniques, is built on sand because:
It depends upon a development team sticking around long enough to do a few projects to calibrate you method.
It depends upon the exact functions of the system being known at the time you do the estimate. This is the killer.
I have never worked on a project where the exact functioning is known at the time coding starts. I have, however, observed that the more analysis/design you do before estimating, the more accurate the estimate is. The problem is, that people always want the answer (estimate) before they've given you the problem (spec).
FWIW On small projects (which are generally better defined), I run through the spec, do a rough n' ready count up of the number of classes, multiply by a factor (decided by the complexity of each class and who I think is going to code it) add a QA+debugging allowance and come up with figures which aren't too wide of the mark.
Oh yeah, and the "who's coding it" is important. Lots of studies show that the difference between "good" and "bad" coders can be a factor of ten. I've been slammed by PMs after estimating how long something would take me, then the PM puts some "cross trained" ex VB dork on it.
To summarise: it is possible if you know who is coding what. Recommendations: 1) read Brooks, 2) keep it small 3) ignore any of the "latest methodologies" that Project Managers try and sell you.
Experience can improve on this significantly (Score:2, Insightful)
There are secondary effects of working by the job - you very quickly learn to do only what you are getting paid for - and don't spend a lot of time on personal research projects or unnecessarily rewriting other peoples code that is working just fine but doesn't conform to your personal style. KISS is absolutely a necessary personal style - anything else and you are doom to continuous cycles of project overruns and long talks with management about why your project is another month or two away from completion.
The BAD way to develop software... (Score:2, Insightful)
Some companies actually do business this way. It scares the hell out of you if you are the client, but it is even scarier if you are working for the company in question.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:5, Insightful)
However, the biggest thing to remember is that no matter what estimation method is used, the simple fact that a methodical approach to analyzing the problem will almost always yield a reasonable estimate.
The main reasons projects go over schedule and budget are:
Risk management is indeed the key. As the project manager or lead engineer, it is your job to predict what potential risks might be and attempt to mitigate them on a cost-effectiveness basis. You can still be bit by bad luck, but you can minize the chances it will strike.
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:2, Insightful)
Shrinkwrap developers face a much different problem, in that the requirements are often set by the marketing goons based on a tenuious grasp of what they THINK the buy public wants, as opposed to actually polling existing users to find out what they REALLY want.
The problem with software development. (Score:3, Insightful)
The customer claimed it was because I could not seem to fully complete a component of the project. What they really meant was I could not fully complete a component of the project before they would request a change to that component that in some cases required a complete rewrite of the component. They didn't think it was a big deal to add a button here or there in the application after all it was only a button. Never mind the fact that each of those buttons required stored procedures to be written and existing stored procedures to be altered. They would get upset that I could not make their requested changes in a day when they wanted to completely alter the way the interface to the application worked.
The bottom line is most people who don't know anything about software development don't think it is a big deal to add a feature here and there at the end of the development cycle. I try to equate software development to carpentry. Sure I can add another door in the center of those cabinets, but don't expect it not to affect the other doors and their space within.
Re:Estimates based on motivation (Score:3, Insightful)
How do you reconcile this with the nature of XP projects to deliver something that is noticeably different from the customers original conception of their need (but that in fact fits very well the customers need as learned over the course of the project?)
I'm seriously interested to hear about folxs who have figured out how to marry an agile development process to fixed cost contracts.
Not just experience counts, so does Humility (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally for me, I tend to do the best hourly breakdown I can and then double it before submission. This is normally not too far wrong (say one week on a 3 month project). The double factor allows for inaccuracies, meetings (which really do take time !), and spec changes. I may add more "fudge factor" depending on my feelings for how well the spec is sorted out and the quality of management (i.e. weak management will allow spec changes every week, good management will filter well).
ANdy
I've been within +/- 20% or better, but ... (Score:2, Insightful)
But that doesn't help. The first problem is if I say something will be done by January 15th, they will still want it (without any help, tools, extra paid OT, etc.) on December 15. The technically correct estimate is not politically (or in marketing terms) correct.
A second problem is when you are at the bottom of the feeding chain, so if some of your test hardware goes bad, you can't get it fixed quickly, or if they disassemble your test setup every few weeks to ship engineering modules (which aren't replaced) to customers, so you start with the assumption of a reasonable development and test environment, and retrograde to LEDs on soldered leads to check things.
Sometimes this effect is in a different order - I depend on a computer or test hardware being engineered in parallel by another group, so the first test milestone in january can't be done until may when the hardware actually appears. Oh, and the extra time for an emulation system so we could develop without actual hardware was shot down because it was guaranteed to be there in january. I think one project didn't have functional hardware until two weeks before the first ship date.
Those are purely technical, but then there are political considerations. E.g. I'm using the Unix type work environment that exists everywhere free (Linux, Win32 with CygWin, etc.) and GCC but they have been using ideosyncratic windows tools - something not quite completely unlike make as a builder, some other C compiler (it had much better C++ support but C v.s. C++ embedded is another rwar). Some code (non-)documentation and editing tool that isn't integrated (they promise they might do something in a few years to integrate things). So I have to change from a porsche to a top-heavy underpowered motorhome and still try to keep up speed.
Then some higher up doesn't like version control tools. Not even something as simple as CVS. So we can't reconstruct anything other than release images making simple changes or backouts (or integrations) much more difficult.
Why is it impossible to estimate how long it takes to empty a 50 gallon trough with a 1 gallon bucket assuming you can do one bucketfull every 10 seconds? Well, they want it emptied in 3 minutes regardless of your calculation. No, you can't use the spigot so when the trough gets empty you won't be able to fill the bucket. Oh, and the bucket had a hole in it and we replaced it with a sieve. And didn't we tell you before the estimate that you can't empty close to the trough, you need to walk 100 feet up stairs and pour carefully through a 1 inch hole - we haven't budgeted for a funnel either. Oh and...
Estimates are wrong more because the assumptions are wrong (or those doing the calculation are wrong). Or what needs to be submitted needs to be wrong to be accepted - lowest bidder then add cost after it is half done v.s. accurate original bid.
And if the environment is such that you can't control things, something like extreme programming is the way to go since it is flexible enough to accommodate constant changes to function, priority, and staffing. Though it won't work when the problems are political.
Re:Estimates based on motivation - XP (Score:2, Insightful)
XP calls for short release cycles of a few months at most. Do you just bid on the current short release cycle or on the whole several month (or year) project?
XP calls for implementing the highest priority features first, so features that slip past the release will be of lower priority. Do you get paid for a release even if lower priority features slip?
XP recognizes four variables in software development: cost, time, quality, and scope. Of these, one is usually going to have to give. XP recommends fixing cost, time, and quality and allowing the scope to change. It recognizes that requirements are never clear at first, and customers can never tell you exactly what they want. As development progresses, you adjust the scope to match the conditions as you find them. So, following XP, are you saying that you charge a fixed price but change the scope throughout the life of the project? I can see how that can work, but I don't think that's what people understood your post to mean, and it's not what most people consider 'fixed bid'.
We use and like XP as well, though we charge by the hour. I am intrigued to hear more about how you use XP with fixed bids. It seems like it might be a fixed bid for "whatever we can get done in 3x8 man months," though.
(my comments about what XP says come almost directly from Extreme Programming Explained, by Kent Beck [amazon.com]).
Software development CAN be estimated! (Score:2, Insightful)
It can be done, teams do it all the time. It just takes skill, dedication and attention to not-very-fun process.
Re:The BAD way to develop software... (Score:1, Insightful)
12b. Software Director and Project Manager inform developers that half their work is to be discarded and that they will be working unpaid overtime. Developers not pleased.
12c. Best developers leave to work for competitor.
Just like building a skyscraper (Score:4, Insightful)
Coding from requirements... (Score:2, Insightful)
Ummm, ok......but (Score:2, Insightful)
yes - it can be estimated (Score:2, Insightful)
In traditional development projects, typically people KNOW what they need to do before it is undertaken. The contractor starts with a blueprint. It is actally possible to count the number of 2x6's that a house will need. One can make an estimate on the time required to nail one 2x6 to another and then multiply by the number in the house in order to estimate how long it will take.
I've had ignornant management ask on far too many occasions how long it will take to develope such and such a project. Best answer is how long is a string?
Management that has no feel for the problem is the problem. How long does it take to write a book?
Well - I suppose it depends on the book. Just because you can not estimate how long it will take does not mean that books will not be written or that they are not valuable.
I can write a book in a day... It will just be a simple book and quite short... but then did anyone define how many pages a book must contain in order to quailify as a book?
I can write a programming project in a day also. But it won't contain over 1/2 million lines of code. For a complex project... well, when we start to see light at the end of the tunnel, then we'll be able to make an estimate how long the tunnel was.
That is the best answer I can give.
PM Estimates (Score:3, Insightful)
ME: How about a spec ?
PM: You're kidding
ME: Roughly 6 weeks.
PM: Nah, too long we'll never get that past the customers, lets call it 4 weeks.
ME: Not again remember what happened last time, you chopped my estimate ?
PM: Don't worry I won't hold you too it, this time!
PM: That work finnished ?
ME: NO, two more weeks.
PM: You said 4 weeks, look here it is in the plan.
ME: I said 6, You said 4 weeks, and that you wouldn't hold me to it.
PM: The only thing I can fault you on is your estimates, they aren't very good.
ME: You £$%&* git !!!
And practically every project manager does the same thing.
Why engineer failure into the plan ?
Re:Software Schedules (Score:3, Insightful)
Others have mentioned "creeping featureism".
There is also the "event Horizon" - When faced with a project of infinite size, people will tend towards an estimate that is based on their idea of how long it takes to solve an infinite problem. For a salesman, this is a couple of days. For a typical manager, a couple of weeks. For an engineer, a couple of months.
For estimates to be meaningful, the work has to be divided into units which you can guarantee will never exceed your event horizon.
I have managed many successful estimates on large (over one year, more than 5 people) projects, based on the method that it needs an average of two weeks to implement, document and test, any feature of the project you can identify before the project starts.
By "feature" I mean explicit bit of behaviour by the code eg "ack an inbound packet", "echo the character on the serial line". I know any amount of people who can code this in 3 minutes in perl or whatever. That is not the same as developing supportable code. All loops have to be unwound, all nesting flattened. Every level of the heirarchy has to be accounted for serially.
Let me introduce Dr Spin's 2:1 Law: Supportable code needs 2kg of paperwork per byte of executable code. Includes minutes of meetings, sketches on envelopes. (Most of it is binned, but it still has to be created).
It's Art, not manufactoring, or physics (Score:2, Insightful)
More mundane reasons for underestimations (Score:5, Insightful)
Underestimation as a Marketing Tactic
AKA "Vaporware". Even if marketing knew when a product would be shippable, a particularly cinical marketing department may claim it to be earlier, thus freezing competitor's development.
Lack of Feedback (Moving Targets)
Software engineers are particularly bad at estimating because they have never done what they estimated. They are given a large project, give a large estimate, start working on it, and the project changes in the middle in a major way. This is a moving target; the estimate no longer applies. Major law of software development: You cannot change the spec or the development team on the project without impacting the real ship date. If you don't re-assess the estimated ship date, you are simply fooling yourself. Thus, they don't have any clue whether they hit the estimate or not. One way to defend against this is to break the project down into bite-sized pieces and estimate them; a small piece gives you a chance to do precisely what you estimated. Once you have that, you can have somebody track your estimates, and come back saying something like "On average, you go one third over your estimates. Add a third to your estimates from now on, and we'll be accurate".
Management Estimates
Often, engineers don't do the estimate. The management or marketing people tell you what must be done, and how long you have. Sometimes this is done explicitly; other times, management may have a number in mind and shame a software team into agreeing with it by laughing off any number that doesn't match theirs. Business people often negotiate the ship date with the geeks, like any negotiate with any other vendor. To a suit, vendor negotiations are how you determine the "margin", or how much the vendor is making (like when you buy a car, you and the dealer come to a number that determines the dealer's margin). This doesn't work in in-house software develoment because geeks hold back precious little "slack" or "margin" (they don't get paid profits, they get paid salaries); in a decent shop, geeks program at flank speed all the time and always give the project 100%.
See Ed Yourdon's Death March or any of Ward Cunningham's Extreme Programming books for more details, and ways to avoid the above traps. Yourdon suggests that the head geek has to take a hard stand in scheduling to prevent business interests from setting both the project spec and the ship date. He especially tells you never to negotiate schedule, and to help the suits understand why you never do. Whatever number you estimate doesn't affect the actual ship date, so playing with that number is simply fooling yourself.
Extreme Programming actually has a "planning game" (sort of a ritual dance) which places business interests and geeks on the same side of the table. Two big rules are "The geeks may not reject any part of the spec" and "The suits may not reject any part of the estimate". Once the suits set the spec, both teams break it down into pieces-parts, line them up in order of what gets done first and the geeks give their estimates. From there, the suits can choose the ship date (and can instantly see how much product will be ready by then), or can choose a certain amount of project completion (and can instantly see the ship date). The fun part about this method is that the suits can change their minds at any time by changing, adding, or removing pieces-parts, and can instantly see how that affects the ship date. The other fun part is that breaking up the project into pieces-parts allows developers to do a (small) project they estimated. This allows people to track estimated versus real time, and to give developers feedback that lets them make better estimates. Such a team will start off with bad estimates like everybody else, but they will be able to improve rapidly.
Re:Software Schedules (Score:4, Insightful)
The thing is, you must get entirely through the design stages first. The design stages should include every screen as well as every possible error message, sub-screen, or whatever can pop up, as well as an outline of how the program flow will go. This takes a lot of time, but not quite as much as it sounds.
Once you have done the complete design, you can accurately make schedules. The problem is, most programmers put all error handling and messaging off as something that doesn't need to be designed. That's where the extra time comes in. If you know _exactly_ how the program flow is supposed to work, estimating time is easy. However, if you haven't finished the design stage, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE PROGRAMMING, so, obviously, you can't estimate the time. So, with a _complete_ design, including all possible error conditions and actions to be taken, scheduling is not that hard.
Something that screws up time... (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Programmer comes up with new system in spare time while learning a language. New system, if polished, would actually make a nice application to sell to current clients. Programmer is excited, and shows "product" to highers-ups.
2. Higher-ups are excited, can see it may take a bit more work, and look into what it would take to get it to market. They tell sales and marketing to go see the programmer to have him demo it to them.
3. Programmer is excited, shows it to sales and marketing. Sales and marketing love it.
4. Months pass. Unbeknownst to the programmer, sales and marketing have sold it to a client, as part of the contract, to be a finished package by the end of the year - OR ELSE.
5. More months pass - higher ups finally tell programmer, and others, that this new system is wanted - and oh, BTW, it is wanted in Java - not in the VB it was shown it.
6. Three months are left to complete the project. Original programmer knows little Java. Other Java coders know little Swing. Architecture of app is changed from a simple app to a three-tier client-server system. Only two other coders have sufficient Java experience to code on it. The lead of the project knows no Java, and only takes notes at meetings.
7. Twenty-one days until deadline (ie, it has to be in QA in 21 days) - everyone sweating bullets knowing it can't be done. Oh, and BTW, at every meeting it seems like a new section not planned for is realized...
It was an ad-hoc system, and it is progressing as an ad-hoc system - a system that should have NEVER been shown to marketing and sales. I am not the programmer who originated it, but suffice to say it is a system that will be nice for our clients once it is completed. Fortunately, it sounds like things will be able to be smoothed over if we miss the deadline...
So remember, all you budding coders out there - if you create something in your "learning" time - don't show it to anyone BUT other coders. If marketing and sales come around, have them sign an NDA promising not to sell it or something - you don't want to release a product to market before it is done - quit "selling" vaporware!!!
Why almost all the posts are off topic. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Software Schedules (Score:3, Insightful)
The MIT Method is to take as long as needed to get a task done "right," regardless of cost and schedules.
The New Jersey method calls for solving 80% of the problem, and putting off 20% until later.
The MIT method results in more project failures than the New Jersey method. Microsoft epitomizes the New Jersey method, as does open source. Multics followed the MIT method, and was never actually finished, just killed off years later...
If anyone has a reference for the "MIT vs NJ" in its original form, please post it.
What is development? (Score:1, Insightful)
1. Setup the process and all the tools required to support it
2. Interpret/Interview and write the specifications
3. Fix old software the engineers worked on that broke
4. Figure out why simple things don't work like the documentation says
5. Try to figure out why the manufacturer of the tools left out essential features
6. etc.
These numbers are left out of the estimate. And dominate the time.
That's the real problem. At least in most smaller companies.
Also one should note that a large software package is more like building/designing an new airplane than building a building.... just a thought....
The deeper problem: why things really fail (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, there's a deeper problem, and it's very simple. Suppose your manager asks you for an estimate, and you say "six months" because that's how long you think it will take. Your manager works out that the project will not succeed if it takes six months, and asks you if you can do it in four. If you say "Yes", you have just become a statistic.
Saying yes does not mean that you can do it if you couldn't before, it just means that you have lied to management, prevented them from doing their job properly. If your project would take six months, but it will not make money if it takes six months, then you simply should not start that project. Failing to realise that simple fact is the major cause of late/failed projects, IME.
Re:Several points to be raised -- is it all academ (Score:3, Insightful)
Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us [mailto]>
Re:Of course they can be estimated. (Score:3, Insightful)
It all comes down to experience with similar things. Like any other project, if a software project is very like something you done hundreds of times before you'll know pretty well how long it will take. If it's unlike anything you've done before there isn't even much point in guessing.
Thing is, in the real world development happens once and then the "project" is duplication (ie; For a "So-and-So Homes" place - Design house once. Build house hundreds of times), but with software duplication is instant - just copy - the project is the original design. (ie; Design software once. Burn 10,000 CDs)
The fact that many companies design their own software, even when they're not software design compaines is the problem. If you were a real-estate place you wouldn't build your own cars, or photocopiers, why do you design your own software? Moreover, why are you surprised when it takes longer than you estimated?
With 25+ Years of Experience, Hubris and Humility (Score:3, Insightful)
To take a reductio ad absurdum:
You are given the task of duplicating the functionality of Windows NT. Furthermore, you are given the source code for Windows NT in a .tgz file and the associated development environment within which that source code can be tested. The question now degenerates into "How long does it take me to copy the tgz file?" That can be accurately predicted by measuring how long it takes to copy files on that environment in general, and the estimated schedule can be predicted to absurdly high degrees of accuracy with enough benchmarks of the system's file copying performance.
Here's another reduced complexity angle:
Translate a program written in Visual Basic and convert it to C++ (readably).
You actually can sit down and convert a sampling of the program and get a measure of how long it will take you to do the whole thing -- the more you sample, the more accurate the measure right up to the point where you have converted the whole thing.
Here's another example with a bit less reduction in complexity:
You are given a working program but no source code, and some expert users of that program. Here we are getting into what might be thought of as "function point analysis" but really, it is much easier and more accurate than that since the program exists and works as it is "supposed" to work, you can bang away on it, and the expert users can bang away on your version of it to ensure it meets their needs -- perhaps discovering that some of the features in the old program were not really used thereby simplifying the task.
Each step has been away from the "absurd" position of simply copying a program which was, in a sense, a "spec" for itself.
At the other extreme, we get to the problem of "write a program that will make me as rich as Bill Gates". Note that this specification is not very specific.... it is very far from being source code for a program you can simply copy, isn't it? Guess what that says about the accuracy of the schedule?
So a lot of this hubub about estimating software schedules is really hubub about the nature of the program specificiation process.
Frank Lloyd Wright (Score:2, Insightful)
This is why Frank Lloyd Wright's buildings were often way behind schedule and way over-budget. He was a great architect and a wonderful designer, and I'm sure most of the engineers and builders were talented as well... but when you are dealing with brand new ideas, there is a certain amount of trial and error neccessary. Unfortunately he also didn't build that trial and error into his estimates.
Also unfortunate is that many of his buildings have leaky roofs.
The way that guy Joel does project management is the way I've been doing it for quite awhile, but he does say it so nicely:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/stories/storyRead
If you are going to compare building a bridge or a house with building software, choose the right bridge or house to compare with. Most software projects are not a cookie-cutter suburban home that everyone knows exactly what it's gonna be like and how to make it. Most of the time it's more like a Frank Lloyd Wright or IM Pei house.... We know the physics and tools of building a house. But we usually want to make them more useful, more livable, and more beautiful. That last part takes more time.
-trout
Like physics? Like hell. (Score:2, Insightful)
Software and physics have certain similarities (not least of which being that physics requires software development). The essential point is that you don't know how long it will take to do something that you haven't done yet. If you HAVE done it, then you don't need to do it again; all software design (or experimental physics experimentation) is essentially a research endevour, although the research results aren't neccessarly of interest in themselves.
Not if there's a good QA department. (Score:2, Insightful)
However since they're met at the last second, often the code that is written suffers. From there often the QA department will find something wrong with the poorly written code, send it back to the development department who then has to spend some more time to fix the new errors that the sloppy code created. So although the "project manager's" deadline was met, the end client often is delayed by the additional things that were discovered.
comment on the posts (Score:4, Insightful)
It looks like several people (well, more than several) posted responses without reading beyond the lead-in. If you're one of them, yes, the argument here is in the general ballpark of "software estimation is hard or impossible", but it actually says something more specific than that.
The article does NOT say the following:
The article DOES say
From this, it does NOT conclude either of the points 1,2 above. Instead, it concludes:
Now some of the response posts, paraphrased:
No, it does not say this.
It also does not say this.
No, the article distinguishes subjective and objective estimates, and specifically discusses the case of an objective estimate with bounds in detail.
Ok, but slightly off topic: the article is specifically talking about those who claim objective estimates.
And where did you get an objective estimate of the complexity of a new project? Read the article...
Yes, you are. Your boss is monitoring you, get back to work.
Certainly. The 'manufacturing' camp of software estimators (Humphrey quote in the supplementary material [idiom.com]) say or hint that software construction can be made into a repeatable, fairly boring process where projects are always on time and programmers are like factory workers. This may or may not be true (I don't think it is), but regardless: to make this view seem more science than philosophy some of these people have fallen into the trap of cloaking their estimating process with formal notation and claiming or hinting objectivity. This part is wrong.
On the contrary, [conclusions to the article and the supplementary material]: