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Wine Software

Transgaming and Transitive E3 Announcement 150

An Anonymous Coward writes: "Breaking news today on the Transgaming website. Today they announced an alliance with the company Transitive. Here's their headline: 'Los Angeles, Ca. TransGaming Technologies, in partnership with Transitive Technologies, unveil their game-porting technology that can allow Windows-based x86 games to be simultaneously released onto multiple platforms. These include the Sony PlayStation 2, Apple Mac OS, set-top boxes, PDAs and wireless devices.'" There's more info on the Transgaming Site. Since Transgaming has ported The Sims already, it's a lot easier to believe that this isn't just vapor.
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Transgaming and Transitive E3 Announcement

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  • Now I can play Ultima Underworld on my cellphone!
  • it works on existing hardware and a MIPS/ARM cpu has the same power saving or better than the crusoe...

    so the question is why do custom hardware ?

    I've spoken to them and they seem like a nice manchester company (-;

    regards

    john jones

  • At first glance I thought the topic said Transgaming and Transvestites. Thats one untouched genre I hope stays untouched.
  • I'm not sure that Cool toilets [gamespy.com] would look good on the Sharp Zaurus [sharp-usa.com] =]
  • Finally... (Score:2, Funny)

    by taernim ( 557097 )
    ... I can get that pretty blue screen on my PS2 that I've been hearing such good things about from my Windows-using friends.

    ::dreamy sigh::
  • is this going to be an emulator of sorts that translates the machine instructions to each of the devices? or is this a much simpler thing?
  • How are they supposed to do 3D stuff on a PDA? Will it feel like Q3A on a P200MMX with a Voodoo2, or better/worse?

    For one, I'd prefer see them continue on their WineX development. But I can understand, if they need the money, that they'd join such a venture.
  • by Scooby Snacks ( 516469 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @07:30PM (#3575960)
    The press release was a little shy on details, so I'm wondering: How are they doing this? Are they using their Wine modifications, or something else? I'd be excited as the next guy if this meant more Linux games. It might not be so good, however, if they use a Windows compatibility layer instead of making it a native executable.

    Here's why: Suppose they have everything in their kit that they need to support all Windows games written for Windows versions from 95-XP. Great, right? That means that with just a little bit of effort, a vendor can release a Linux version of a game, giving us more games to play with. However, here's the downside: If by writing for Windows you can target both Windows and Linux (and whichever other platforms they support), then why would anyone write any native Linux programs? Then, in XP+1, Microsoft introduces major breakage into their API, such that it's a long time to get it working correctly with Trans{gaming,itive}'s kit. That means that potentially, there won't be any new Linux releases until they can get it fixed. And if they can't... Well, consider OS/2.

    Any thoughts?

    • basically transitives can emulate x86 on MIPS/ARM/(custom hardware) they then run linux (x86) which has wine installed(transgaming wineX to be exact) which runs the sims

      so to get the sims running they did sweet FA

      transitives had to doo all the work of makeing an x86(screwed) run on a MIPS (nice)

      regards

      john jones

    • One reason M$ can't get away with stuff like that is that developers want thier software as compatible as possible. So if xp+1 has an expanded API it will take until xp+4 before they are adopted. That why the wine project is so important. If linux can run all the apps, and behave just like a windows machine on a network, M$ will be in trouble!
    • with just a little bit of effort, a vendor can release a Linux version of a game

      Going on kind of a tangent, I have to say that I'm disappointed in the dearth of Quake, Unreal, and LithTech games for Linux. The engines are cross platform, yet we see so few licensees make the effort to port their own game code. We've got Unreal Tournament, Quake 2 and 3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, and Kingpin. F.A.K.K.2, Shogo, Sin, and Soldier of Fortune were ported externally.

      What about Elite Force, Medal of Honor, Jedi Knight 2 (WineX isn't perfect), Deus Ex, The Operative, etc.? I'm not holding my breath for Elite Force 2, Soldier of Fortune 2, The Operative 2, Deus Ex 2, or Raven Shield. Raven and Ritual, the two top Quake developers, haven't shown much interest in Linux.

    • Split programs into > Appllications & Games. It'll look much better.

      I want my work apps native elf binary, made for linux in their origin. But games are far better suited to some controled environment, which you format simply by deleting that folder. Recreating (with a simple copy of originated winex folder) new one and here is your new formated games partition. If it would be so easy everywhere it would be very nice.

      That way you can have separation of games and apps you use. And RPMs being so friendly to install and uninstall, make a realy clean platform for every user. (hopefully thay'll make a friendly list of RPMs groups being installed after initial system install, what would simplify install/uninstall greatly, even time framed groups would do nice)

      Personaly I don't play games, but I'm supporting Transgaming. I even bothered to compare performance of winex with native Windows. There's just a little difference (sound is still a little buggy) which is easy forgotten just by smiling over games cleanup after playing.

      I always think of winex as some native linux games Console, with a difference that installing a game is essential need, the step that consoles don't need. So, do reconsider benefits of that over the "native". It's the first time that games could be completely separated from a working bussines system, I hail to that.
    • If by writing for Windows you can target both Windows and Linux (and whichever other platforms they support), then why would anyone write any native Linux programs?

      Seems to me most people write for X/KDE/Gnome/"posix", not for Linux. Wine or this interface layer just becomes another Linux API that just happens to be identical to Linux, and the programs are effectively Linux-native.

      Then, in XP+1, Microsoft introduces major breakage into their API, such that it's a long time to get it working correctly with Trans{gaming,itive}'s kit.

      Then no other old program works either, and people dump Windows in droves, or refuse to upgrade. Don't 16-bit Windows programs still work on XP? They may extend the API, but they rarely intentionally break it.
    • If by writing for Windows you can target both Windows and Linux (and whichever other platforms they support), then why would anyone write any native Linux programs?

      When Linux has a large chunk of the market then even hardcore ms windows developers will migrate to linux. The API's are open and easy to code to. The total price of a system is lower for both the developer and for their customers. Performance of native apps is bound to be higher. And they will be able to take advantage of the latest developments on a platform which is evolving _much_ faster than Ms windows.

      How will Linux get a large chunk of the OS market? Only by being backwards compatible with legacy windows apps.What you perceive as a setback is actually a longterm investment without which it could take 20 more years to conquer the desktop.

      And establishing Linux as the Lingua Franca is too important to the economy to wait that long. Imagine if all businesses could suddenly save $1000 a year per computer user by switching to Linux. Yes between Windows, Office, Back Office, connections licenses, and misc. other packages like Visio and Frontpage, it is probably that big of a savings. It would make the Bush tax cut/economic incentives look like a piddling amount.

    • In defense of OS/2, while Windows performance was often slow this was more perception as you had to wait for the VM to start, windows to start, then your app. Once loaded, applications were sometimes faster than in native Windows 3.1...

      Many DOS games ran much better than in native DOS as well. Of course, always having 640K of main memory was always killer. And being able to run good old Oblivion/2 in the background while I was playing X-Wing... Those were the days.

      I do acknowledge however there is a big difference between emulating an operating system and emulating a whole other processor. I would tend to think that is not going on however, as the performance would just suck, especially on something like an ARM.
  • The Sims (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Wanker ( 17907 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @07:30PM (#3575961)
    I'd just like to be able to buy The Sims for Linux for less than $70US. Mandrake (exclusively) sells it bundled with their Linux distribution, but has no standalone version.

    Considering that folks can get it (on Win32) for $50US, there's little incentive to buy it except "for the good of the company". After I found out what Loki did with my money, I'm still a bit jaded about paying a premium for Linux games...
    • Considering that folks can get [The Sims] (on Win32) for $50US, there's little incentive to buy it except "for the good of the company".

      That assumes that you have Windows and dual boot. The Windows version doesn't work under WineX, and I don't see TransGaming fixing that any time soon. Even more annoying: for your $70, you can't even play any of the expansion packs.

      Linux gaming's time has come and gone, and will come again, eventually. I've been looking forward to Neverwinter Nights, but they'll have to fix the SDK EULA to get my money.

      • That assumes that you have Windows and dual boot.
        I think it's a safe assumption that most gamers have a dual boot system on which to play their games. I'm sure there are some hardcore folks who only play Loki/WineX/xtetris, but the vast majority of the game players I know play on Win32.

        The Windows version doesn't work under WineX, and I don't see TransGaming fixing that any time soon.
        I was disappointed that The Sims didn't play natively under WineX. I (naively) assumed that since they were advertising it so heavily on the Transagming site that it was one of the more compatible games with WineX.

        Just today, as I went to purchase it, I read the fine print in the FAQ and discovered that the Win32 version not only does not run well on WineX-- it doesn't run AT ALL.

        And then this topic appeared on slashdot giving me a chance to vent some. ;-)

        • It is not in their best interest to get it working either, if people want The Sims for linux so badly, they will have to buy the mandrake package, the more packages that get sold, the more money mandrake and transgaming get. Why fix it if it gets them to sell less copies?

          Sadly, transgaming is in for the money.
    • Re:The Sims (Score:3, Interesting)

      by JM ( 18663 )
      I'll definitely pass your comment to the MandrakeSoft Sales Director.

      • You know, I for one would just be happy if you guys would release an update to the Gaming Edition to 8.2. It's getting pretty long in the tooth in terms of everything non-Sims that you get for the sticker price.
    • Re:The Sims (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Mr.Ned ( 79679 )
      Transgaming seems to not be doing any work right now to support the Windows version of The Sims. However, I believe that the topic has come up in a current poll - subscribers will decided what kind of attention that gets.

      Have you tried The Sims using the new version of WineX? I don't know about that game, but the admittedly quite different Jedi Knight II works out of the box just as speedy as on Windows for me. I just need to remember to make my Windows partitions user-writeable and I'll be set!

      I was very skeptical of buying anything from them, especially a monthly plan, but after I tried Jedi Knight II I think I'm going to sign up. $5/month, $15 minimum - you get precompiled binaries with copy-protection support and voting rights. Think Mandrake Club (or maybe not :)
      • You can save your money though because OpenGL games like this work fine in normal wine. You may have to remove the safedisc stuff from the binary but after that is done, it runs fine. I have heard people who use winex have problems with software that runs fine in normal wine. For me, whenever I try out winex from cvs just to see how it does it ends up breaking things that worked before with normal wine. Also, transgaming keeps listing games with native ports in their database, which is a bad practice. Unless you dont mind paying the cash and want to support this kind of half-ass "support" for a certain title you cant possibly live without and can't stand dual booting then go ahead.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Looks like someone got caught up in press release hype.

    Of course The Sims was easy to port - it's 2D.

    From reading the company website, their technology is indeed slightly novel: they've reimplemented the win32 API functions for other platforms. On top of that, they've reimplemented the DirectX API as well.

    But for 3d games, I don't think this will be at all trivial for porting... the PS2's architecture is extremely different to that of a PC, and just blindly interpreting Direct3d Immediate Mode calls ("draw this triangle here") will surely not take advantage of the PS/2 architecture at all.

    Transitive's angle is that companies can just write their game for the win32 platform, talking to all the native APIs, and Transitive's APIs will take care of porting to other platforms.

    It's not that simple. It's far more important that game developers write their game for portability from the ground up, with an abstraction layer, for OS-specific stuff like win32 API calls, at the lowest levels.

    But 3d engines are not going to port well just by having Direct3d calls translated, especially for platforms that are as odd as the PS2. In that case, it's going to take a non-trivial adaptation of the graphics engine for that platform.
    • PS2 architecture (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Twister002 ( 537605 )
      But for 3d games, I don't think this will be at all trivial for porting... the PS2's architecture is extremely different to that of a PC, and just blindly interpreting Direct3d Immediate Mode calls ("draw this triangle here") will surely not take advantage of the PS/2 architecture at all.

      I thought that too, but after looking around the Playstation2 section at CompUSA I noticed that there are a LOT of PC games (Half-life, No One Lives Forever, Baldurs Gate to name a few) that have been ported to the PS2. That makes me think that perhaps the hardware, or at least the PS2 API, is that different from a PC.

      Granted, I've never DONE a porting to the PS2 but it seems like a lot of companies have.
      • Having programmed both PC and PS2 games, the differences are VAST. First, knock Baldur's Gate off the list, its not a port of the PC game at all, its a completely unique game that just uses the Baldur's Gate brand.

        For the others (Quake & Lithtech engine games), the underlying engines were ported, with quite a lot of platform specific tweaking, to the PS2, with quite a lot of functionality cut out to deal with the fact that the PS2 has almost no memory to speak of (compared to even the lowest end bargain basement PC) and the fact that as the above posted mentioned, the architectures are very different. So, while you might have Lithtech PC and Lithtech PS2, and the API for LITHTECH is pretty much the same across both, that is not the case with a lower-level API like DirectX/Direct3D whose very software architecture makes extreme assumptions about the hardware architecture it is running on.

        NOBODY is going to use this to 'port' commercial games run under the PS2, period...Not gonna happen, ever. If anyone does I WILL EAT MY COMPUTER and webcam it live for all to see.

        • by Anonymous Coward
          >If anyone does I WILL EAT MY COMPUTER and webcam it live for all to see.

          Won't that be a little hard, considering that the webcam would be broadcasting through the computer you're eating? :-)
        • That's where I agree. But on the other hand, what about linux kit for PS2, that one needs games too, doesn't it?

      • I thought that too, but after looking around the Playstation2 section at CompUSA I noticed that there are a LOT of PC games (Half-life, No One Lives Forever, Baldurs Gate to name a few) that have been ported to the PS2. That makes me think that perhaps the hardware, or at least the PS2 API, is that different from a PC.

        Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance isn't a port, its a totally different game set in the same world. I don't know about No One Lives Forever, but as for Half Life, a game that old is probably simple enough to run well on a PS2 even if the port is crap.

        There is no "PS2 API".. either you buy an engine from someone, or you write your own.

  • Aren't there wide differences in the interfaces and characteristics of these systems?

    For example, I enjoyed Baldur's Gate II on Windows 98SE. I don't know that I'd enjoy it on a PDA without some heavy alterations that a crossplatform toolkit won't be able to handle -- changing the resolution, shrinking the binary footprint, or matching the color depth appropriately come to mind. Can a game designed for a PDA interest people on a Playstation 2?

    It's a cool idea, and maybe where it will really shine is in developing things like MMORPG clients, but I guess my point is that programming for compatibility means that you (probably) won't get the most out of any platform you're designing for... and games are the one thing we expect to push our hardware to its limit these days.

  • Okay, this is totally off topic, but I just read over at Gamasutra [gamasutra.com] that Max Payne, one of the flagship games for WineX 2.0, was sold to Take-Two Interactive for $34-million dollars.
  • I thought TransGaming's focus was on making games portable over different operating systems, yet with this announcement, they say nothing of this new portability layer functioning on Linux at all. They specify "PC"/Mac/PS2...now whether PC includes *nix is up to interpretation...

    But as usual, all press releases are sketchy on details, made to sound good by making things generalized.
  • by LordZardoz ( 155141 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @07:35PM (#3575985)
    At least not with respect to the PS2. The architecture of that machine is quite simply nowhere near what a Win32 programmer expects.

    Input and Sound are handled on the IPU, which is essentially an embedded PS1.

    The machine has an insanely low amount of ram for textures that the only way to actually use many is to either compress the hell out of them or use the insanely high memory bandwitdth to contunually load new textures into memory.

    The EE / GS (Emotion Engine and Graphics Synth), and the VU0 and VU1 units handle data much differently then a standard 'Wintel' box.

    And all of that is just considering the differences between the PS2 and a PC!

    Using a well written library, it may be possible to get something to compile. However, all of the games art content (Model geometry and textures) would have to be re-worked signifigantly. Getting a game to run on multiple consoles is a bit more involved then simply switching compilers.

    Further complicating this is that for this to work, you will have to write your game with the proposed game engine in mind. This means that if you want to have a simultaneous release, you will have to stick to the lowest common denominator among the selected machines. For some simpler titles, this will be fine, but no game that wants to push a machine to its limits can really get much use from this sort of technology.

    END COMMUNICATION
    • Getting a game to run on multiple consoles is a bit more involved then simply switching compilers

      I assume that is why they say it goes from two years to two months versus two days. They are acknowledging (though implicitly) that it isn't just a purely simple matter as switching compilers/platforms and recompiling.
  • Definitely not hype (Score:5, Interesting)

    by JM ( 18663 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @07:36PM (#3575992) Homepage
    When TransGaming came to us (MandrakeSoft), they said they could port The Sims in less than two months. I must admit I was skeptical at first, but they delivered the merchandise, and we made the Mandrake Gaming Edition, which had great reviews.

    When they said they would port Max Payne in the same amount of time, they delivered the merchandise.

    Now, when they say they can port to other platforms, I would bet my last dollar they will deliver the merchandise again.

    Great to see some fellow Canadians have success! ;-)
    • Are you guys going to release The Sims for Linux as a standalone? Right now at $70US, the only way to get it (Mandrake Gaming Edition) is priced $20 more than the Win32 version.

      I'm sure this is awfully discouraging to would-be purchasers. (like me)
      • I guess I should ask our Sales Director about this, but it would be a nice idea.

        • That would be great if's the case to get a standalone Sims; it would be another native Linux game to put on the shelves so the average Joe sees that Linux is more viable...
    • That's all well and good. Now lets see them target a different platform, with a different processor, especially one not little endian.

      Like MacOS.

      - Chris Jacobson
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday May 23, 2002 @07:55PM (#3576086)
    timothy: Transgaming did not port The Sims. Please do not continue repeating that falsehood.

    If you purchase the Mandrake 8.1 Gaming Edition with The Sims (which I, unfortunately, did do, and it was rather a waste of $80), and you install it, you will receive a copy of TransGaming's WineX in addition. Once you have done the installation, you can start looking around at the setup.

    The data is put in /usr/lib/the_sims (by default), which has, in addition to the UserData directories, .the_sims/, simsdir/, and winex_sims/ /usr/lib/the_sims/simsdir/ includes simsinstall.exe (a Windows executable), two .dlls for running, and the default game data. /usr/lib/winex_sims/ includes the normal bin/ and lib/ -- lib/ has all the normal wine libraries (plus, it looks like, some winex-specific and maybe Sims-specific libraries), and bin/ has the normal wine/winex launchers.

    /usr/lib/the_sims/.the_sims/ is very interesting, it has a c_drive/ and default wine config files. The c_drive has a Program Files hierarchy (mostly empty, probably for the install program) and a new simsdir, which contains the actual Sims.exe launched by the command 'the_sims' (see below). An analysis of Sims.exe shows that it is NOT a Linux-native binary of any meaningful format -- it is neither a.out nor ELF. It is also not the traditional Windows binary (starting with MZ, with extra stuff after a short DOS stub). Given how SafeDisc works, it's quite possible it's a SafeDisc-style encrypted binary. I haven't thrown it all through a debugger yet to figure out for sure.

    The shell script which launches the game (/usr/bin/the_sims) is a bash shell script which sets up the environment to reference that specific winex install, sets a few bits related to it, and runs wine /usr/lib/the_sims/.the_sims/c_drive/simsdir/S ims.exe

    From public statements (sorry, no reference handy), it appears that Transgaming had the Windows source -- but rebuilt the binaries to work around some Wine/WineX-specific issues. But they're still Windows binaries and Windows libraries.

    PLEASE stop perpetuating the myth that TransGaming is doing "native ports". They are customizing the executable to work better in their existing emulation[*] environment, and the environment to mesh better with the Windows executable.

    If TransGaming were truly doing native ports, they would not need a second company to emulate the x86 processor for their technology to work on non-x86 platforms!

    (I'll point out that most Windows games are memory and processor hogs, and many of the platforms they mention, such as PDAs, set top boxes (devices on which I develop), PDAs, and wireless devices are very memory and CPU limited. Not to mention that the UIs usually need redesigning, and the binaries heavy optimization just to fit into the tiny memory and screen footprints these devices have.)

    [*] I did not say that WINE is an emulator, I said that the environment (in toto) emulates the Windows environment from the perspective of the Windows executable being run.

    • Definition of "port" (Score:5, Informative)

      by JM ( 18663 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @08:15PM (#3576169) Homepage
      According to:
      http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi? query =port

      2. To translate software to run on a different system or the results of doing so. See portability.

      I think Transgaming fits that definition.

      They did port the DirectX layer, then tweaked the source so it would run fine on Linux.

      OK, it's not "native", but I haven't seen the word "native" in the article, on in timothy's comment.

      • by Anonymous Coward
        By that definition, they also "ported" Max Payne, Diablo 2, Jedi Knight 2, and Soldier of Fortune 2, as I am told those work reasonably well under WineX too.

        However, that definition of port does not match the common usage I've heard in my years as a Unix user. In the common parlance to which I've been exposed, "porting" something from one platform to another results in a native binary (possibly with helper libraries). This is a native emulator, with non-native binaries. Qualifying that as a port means that since the Linux gcc works under the FreeBSD Linux emulation environment, the FreeBSD team "ported" gcc just as much as the gcc developers who made the FreeBSD version of gcc.

        I agree that they build some impressive technology improvements (D3D, many DirectX fixes, the SafeDisc fixes) on an existing codebase (wine), enough, even, to warrant a subscription fee and bundling deals.

        I disagree that qualifies as "porting" in the practical sense, and it lowers the value of the term and cheapens (nay, insults) the work of those developers who make a natively-optimized binary (such as id, Epic, the sadly defunct Loki, Hyperion, Tribsoft, Sunspire, Illwinter, and others).

        Wine and WineX are a valuable migration tool -- but running a Windows binary through an emulation environment is quite a different beast from taking a code base and moving it to a native toolchain.

        I do use Wine to play a few older games -- but I'd hardly call that "Oooh, I ported WarCraft 2 because I got it running under Wine". And the Wine team didn't port WarCraft, they created a set of APIs roughly matching the Win32 APIs.

        Similarly, the existence of stella is certainly not indicative of the stella team porting the Atari 2600 titles to Linux (I doubt many people would agree that they ported Pitfall, for instance). Nor does epsxe mean the epsxe developers ported Final Fantasy VIII.

        (By your logic, running the cygwin version of ls under WineX is as much a port as grabbing ls from GNU's FTP site and building it with the Linux version of gcc.)

        I know MandrakeSoft has a vested interest due to the bundling deal, but please try and realize that this is not an indictment of that, your company, your distribution, you, or TransGaming. It is an attempt to correct the mis-apprehension that The Sims was ported to Linux -- just like Quake 3, Tribes 2, etc. The processes were very different, the underlying pieces are very different. The only real similarity lies in the fact that, in the end, the user can play Quake 3, Tribes 2, or The Sims under Linux. (And, according to one TransGaming employee with whom I spoke, the Sims binary that was built was, indeed, built with Windows tools.)

        I am aware that timothy did not say "Look, they ported The Sims just like Loki ported Tribes 2", but his phrasing linked it to just such efforts in the past.

    • Actually, they did change the source code for The Sims. Ergo, they ported it to WineX.
  • Has anyone tried the darn thing yet? How is the performance? Will we see counter-strike on Linux soon? What about DirectX issue...I'm sure Microsoft isn't going to be too pleased to see DirectX on Linux.
    • The directX on linux isn't what's being announced here. That's been out for months (though its still being worked on), and for the games it works on it's great. In particular I run counterstrike on linux at almost the same speed it runs in windows. It doesn't work with all games yet, but once you're a subscriber you get access to monthly updates and you get to vote on what game they get working next. I'm a subscriber (its really cheap, just $5 a month at the basic level), and I really want more people to support this company. So if you want to support games on Linux, join up!
    • Wow...I haven't been following Linux gaming for a while and to tell you the truth I'm surprised to find out that the darn thing is up and running on Linux already.

      Thanks for the info guys.
    • You can run it on OpenGL mode right? How does the whole thing work? Installation wise i mean.
    • has worked on linux for at least the past year. Read up a little. Even the vanilla implementation of Wine will do it (albeit with a few sound lag issues). Download the transgaming source and compile (or pay for binaries) and give it a spin.

      Works fine for me.
  • I took a quick look at the Transitive site, and it seems like they have some interesting technology. Essentially what they do is transcode binary executables from one CPU architecture to another. So you take an x86 binary, run it through their "Dynamite" product and out pops a PowerPC binary.

    This is all well and good, but I would have thought this is only a tiny step for most games. Many games make extensive use of platform-specific libraries to provide graphics, sound and IO support. I would imagine that running (for example) the DirectX libraries through Transitive Dynamite would be a technically interesting but legally difficult exercise. Are Microsoft really going to allow Transgaming to port their libraries to PS2?

    And this doesn't even touch on the hardware specification problems. How would a game that expects at least an SVGA screen really cope with trying to run on a Palm? Isn't the PS2 architecture sufficiently different from the PC architecture to cause major problems?

    These issues can be addressed (presumably that's whay the Transgaming press release says it reduces porting time from "2 years" down to "2 months") but it seems that binary porting is actually only a small aprt of the problem. You would have to heavily rebuild the source code anyway, so why not just cross-compile it straight to the target platform?

    Perhaps I am missing something. Can anyone enlighten me?
    • This is all well and good, but I would have thought this is only a tiny step for most games. Many games make extensive use of platform-specific libraries to provide graphics, sound and IO support. I would imagine that running (for example) the DirectX libraries through Transitive Dynamite would be a technically interesting but legally difficult exercise. Are Microsoft really going to allow Transgaming to port their libraries to PS2?

      Well that's where projects like WineX come in..Cleanroom implementations of the lower level libraries that will be used on whatever platform. Though as I mentioned in another post, there's no fucking way in hell anyone is ever going to use this technology to port a real-world modern game to the PS2...the technical issues are too numerous for me to repeat here again.

    • The issue with the platform specific apis like directX is where transgaming comes in. They have specifically extended wine to include a reimplementation of the directX apis. They've also done it in a completely clean room manner. So if you take winex and compile it for your target platform, then run your game through transitive's converter and link to winex, you have a new effectively native game.
  • by brondsem ( 553348 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @08:31PM (#3576228) Homepage
    This is already possible if the developers use SDL [libsdl.org]/OpenGL [opengl.org] or CrystalSpace [sourceforge.net]. I don't think either will support PS2 (unless you use the linux kit) and handheld support is probably shaky. But they're open source and cross-platform!
  • http://www.transgaming.com/gamepage.php?gameid=167
    There is a native port of this game and yet they still have this up. This is why transgaming won't see a dime from me.
    Native port available here.
    ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/wolf/linux

    http://www.transgaming.com/gamepage.php?gameid=4 09
    What is this game doing here. This game was ported natively
    Native port here:http://www.lokigames.com/products/tribes2/

    I didn't go through the whole list but I'm sure there are a few more they have listed there that have been ported and work natively. I just get tired reading that someone tries running quake3 with wine or winex when id has been releasing linux binaries for a long time.
    • Every other message on the RtCF Transgaming Forum [transgaming.com] expresses a similar opinion. See my post about why I use wineX instead of the Linux binaries.

      Basically wineX works for me, the binaries don't. wineX has support and is continually impoving, the binaries don't and aren't.

      Saying that you won't pay $5 a month for Transgaming membership because too many users vote for a game you don't think should be officially supported is silly. Any work Transgaming would do to improve RtCW would certainly improve wineX performance for other games as well.

      For christsakes, RtCW isn't even offically supported (and probably never will be because it will never pass the monthly vote). That doesn't matter to me though because it already works fine with wineX 2.0
    • I don't care if people want to use WineX for RtCW. I use the linux binaries, they work great, and I really see no need for WineX under this title. I don't really want to see developer attention given to making a native linux title run, but if its easier for the user, then go for it.

      Quake2 runs under linux, but if you don't have a 3dfx card, documentation to get it running is VERY hard to find. I couldn't find it. I installed Q2 under WineX and it works as better than it did under windows when it was released. ( I also didn't have an nvidia GF4 4600 Ti back then ;)
    • The list should continue to list which games work with WineX, even if they've been ported.

      For example, you list Tribes2, but LokiGames has gone under and cannot support the game anymore (and my copy breaks pretty frequently). There's a bit of worry expressed on the GarageGames.com forum about a new patch to be released this summer by Sierra for the Windows version that it may break the existing Linux binaries that try to use patched servers if Sierra decides not to update the Linux client as well (which seems pretty likely).

  • Jedi Knight 2, Max Payne, Soldier of Fortune 2 Full Version, Half Life, HL Counter Strike, Sacrifice, Quake 2.

    Quake 2 had linux binaries available, but they were intended for a 3dfx chipset. Documentation on getting Q2 to run on OpenGL (Nvidia) hardware is SO hard to come by, that I just said screw it and installed under WineX. Works as well as under windows natively. SoF2 was released YESTERDAY, a cutting edge title that runs under linux thanks to winex (issues to install, see transgaming forum's for details).

    I love WineX. I believe the the big money payoff for this announcement is the Mac folks comsumer base. They wait a looong time for a meager trickle of PC games, this could work to making main stream games available to them upon initial release. Linux is not mentioned in the press release, but I'm assuming that by x86 PC, Linux is the main target, as windows needs no help to run native apps. The optimistic result of this (if the tech pans out) is that developer's are so happy to have a multi-platform release that they adopt open design standards (sound and graphics) as opposed to DirectX API, to keep their titles available for all platform's via the WineX environment. That's a step closer to open standard games which require no WineX. As has been posted, there are open standards (SDL, etc) that could be used now to accomplish this, but what we need are baby steps that result in sales $$$ to publisher's as a result of the broad cross platform market.
  • by IGnatius T Foobar ( 4328 ) on Thursday May 23, 2002 @11:14PM (#3576888) Homepage Journal
    This is a dangerous idea. If what TransGaming achieves is true portability of Windows game source code to Linux and console platforms, and if game developers take to it, it makes Windows the reference platform for game development. Is this where we want to be? Specifically, is this where we want to be in another couple of years when Microsoft suddenly starts adding patented "features" to DirectX that can't be brought into the TransGaming WINE environment?

    Write your games using truly open standards like OpenGL, and then port to Windows.
    • Maybe you hadn't noticed, but Windows IS the reference platform for game development.
    • I think you have it reversed. At 30 million PS2 units sold (I think that is U.S. only), the PS2 may become the dominant gaming platform. While there are certainly more than 30 million windows boxes out there, how many of them are owned by gamers?
    • Yes. We want "A" reference point for games. Windows has done more for the PC gaming industry than any other OS I can think of. You have everything you need to be a successful developer:

      A full set of APIs

      A large user base

      Hardware vendors writing drivers

      Major Name Recognition (tm)

      Future and Past interoperability (better than, say, NES and GameCube. XP will run lots of Win 3.1 stuff. )

      Windows is great for game companies. Better than Mac. Better than OS/2. WAAAAAY better than Linux. If you can make Windows games run out of the box on Linux machines (with small additional cost), you make best buddies out of end users, developers, and gamers. People don't want to have a pile of games written for a specific OS that now needs to be repurchased. I have a stack of OS/2 games sitting around. I have a stack of Apple games sitting around. I even have some older Linux games sitting around (RH 6.5 is not very compatible with RH 7.2, you know). What I don't have is old Windows games sitting around. My current box is able to play everything I have. Norse by Norsewest; Command and Conquer; Wing Commander I, II, and III; Ultima I - IX;

      It is always better to tell someone "I don't need to you to change anything, I can generate additional revenue for you for free", then to tell them " I want you to create OS-specific, hardware optimized code for a platform that has a niche market."

      Face it: as cool and as useful as Linux is, it is not Windows. It has a fraction of the desktop users, supports a fraction of the hardware, and commands a lot less respect from developers. I don't see "Hot New Linux Game!" in any of my game magazines.

      -WS

  • Can we replace the Developers title caption with:
    Developers, developers, developers, developers...
  • From transgamings press-release:

    About TransGaming Technologies:
    TransGaming Technologies is the dominant provider of software portability solutions for game developers and publishers. TransGaming's unique technology allows games designed for one system to be deployed on multiple platforms - faster, cheaper, and better than anyone else. TransGaming Technologies has recently developed strategic relationships with Electronic Arts, the world's premier game developer and publisher; MandrakeSoft the world's largest retail Linux distributor; and MacroVision, the world's most-used PC copy protection provider. TransGaming has a license to the world's top selling game, Electronic Art's "The Sims" and shipped an optimized Linux version just eight weeks after receiving source code.


    My emphasis.

    So, transgaming will do their very best to work with "copy protection providers", which interfere with what people want to do with their hardware. yay! Good that I've not given in to the urge of donating money to transgaming. Now I know that I never will neither.

  • Playstation 2?!? HAHAHAA!!! Oh the irony! Now all those people who pimp the PS2, and talk about how lame the xbox is because "its just a pc...", when PS2 is the one that will be able to play windows games!
  • PDA? What does that mean? PocketPC or PalmOS? Speak IENglish!

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