A Critical Look at Trusted Computing 278
mod12 writes "After just attending a two-week summer program on the theoretical foundations of security (one of the speakers was from Microsoft research), I have been interested in trying to find out if the "trusted computing" initiative was still alive. I got my answer today in the New York Times from an article that was fortunately rather critical of the concept."
Microsoft . . . (Score:5, Funny)
It's full of hex! (Score:5, Interesting)
Gotta love the NYT - their editors are on the ball!
Re:It's full of hex! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It's full of hex! (Score:2)
Ummmm... I believe that's a Palladium key, not machine code. Since the best encryption keys are those that are truly randomly generated, not the pseudo-random numbers most software uses at present, you see a good key (if it is indeed random).
Gotta love the NYT - their editors are on the ball!
Apparently. (Well, this time anyway.)
That's the problem with random numbers... (Score:2)
Re:It's full of hex! (Score:2)
Re:It's full of hex! (Score:2)
Re:It's full of hex! (Score:4, Informative)
[%s] & Ed[%s] values for User Name TextBox event description. \00\00\00\0A Unexpected Type[%s] & Id[%s]
Looks like a dump from an executable file.
Fragility (Score:2)
Re:It's full of hex! (Score:2, Interesting)
This is pretty much what it says, save for a the stuff at the end. Format is unicode.
What with all those [%s]s everywhere, it seems like it has some sort of a practical purpose, although it isn't "code" per se.non DRM computers? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:5, Insightful)
I recommend not tossing systems when you upgrade--pre-ban PCs should be worth a tidy sum soon.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
And what about Macs? I haven't heard of any DRM plans for Mac computers.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:5, Interesting)
What's wrong with current processors? I mean, do we REALLY need 3GHz machines? No, I've a couple that are below 1GHz and unless I wanted to play some insane game at high resolution, it's perfectly fine.
Besides, even if Digital Restrictions Management is in the processors, it likely can be ignored or disabled by the BIOS. For AMD or Intel to come out with a processor that REQUIRED DRM to operate would be to commit corporate suicide.
Look for crafty motherboard makers like Abit, etc (who cater to the geeks) to add DRM disabling as a feature just as they do with overclocking. Abit doesn't exactly care what Intel or AMD thinks of them, they care about what their CUSTOMERS want.
Which is why they make easily overclockable boards, the infamous (I had one) BP6 dual celeron board, etc.
There WILL be a market for a board that locks out DRM. If only among the tinfoil hat crowd, but given the OUTRAGE over the P3 serial number, I can't imagine there not being a lot of noise over DRM in the processor... At least enough to get the option to turn it off.
Yes, we do (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes. To do any sorts of useful video editing, you need fast machines; in fact, I'd argue that 3ghz is the minimum you need.
Computer speed has historically been turned into new, useful applications; applications that can't even be considered until computers are fast enough.
Consider MP3; it could have been implemented 20 years before it became big; the theory of lossy compression was understood by researchers, but it wasn't terribly practical until faster computers appeared.
And this is on down the line... think about as I mentioned before... video editing, real-time video effects in games, speech recognition, pattern recognition; each needs more and faster processor power.
I'll grant you, if you want to do email and browse the web, then you're in luck: a 450mhz PII will suit you nicely, and a wonderful machine can be purchased for under $200 for that purpose. But that's pretty myopic; people want faster computers not to read email faster, but because they want to run new applications that are only possible with faster computers.
So I'd argue there is a significant problem if the world's CPU and chipmakers will only produce "trusted" versions of their product.
Re:Video editing at 3GHz (Score:3, Informative)
Just cutting and pasting video, you're right. But when you get more processor power, there are a lot more things you can do (special effects, blending, convert to and from various formats).
My point isn't really about video editing as such; the point is that we aren't "done" in the CPU department.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:5, Insightful)
The "Oh, the consumer can switch it off" line is utter and complete fucking bullshit.
Yes, you can turn off DRM. Yes, Zion can shut down the machines in the basement. What happens then? Applications that used to work stop, asking you politely to "Please enable DRM" and offering to tell you how. More polite dialog boxes pop up: "You need to be running DRM to use this application" or "This feature requires DRM support (where available)".
You're given the choice between owning your own computer and being owned. Think this is paranoid fantasy? Try turning off cookies and javascript on your average user's machine. They're be completely fucked, with a big cloud of "turn cookies on" sites that simply do not work. Compliance or Else: That is the promise of DRM.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apple is typically better to their customers, because they have to be. Microsoft has shown a lack of respect for their customers fairly consistently and get away with it because people don't see much alternative at the moment. Also, Apple's embracing the open source community, though perhaps not to the degree that some would like (though I think it's a good balance of open and closed source). Their ties to the open source community I would think make them more likely to refuse to implement TCPA.
The problem Apple is going to face though, is will Apple users be able to open TCPA encrypted documents? Apple, along with Linux, the BSD's, and any other non Microsoft platform need to oppose this so that Microsoft can't lock alternative platforms' users out of all documents created through Microsoft apps.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
I disagree partially. I definitely see where you're coming from, and I don't think any amount of DRM is a good thing. But in the case of the iTunes music store, it's trivial to convert music you buy to an uncrippled format, and by all indications Apple doesn't mind. (In fact they provide one of the easiest ways to do it with iMovie). The purpose of Palladium is to have 100% effective DRM, which necessarily involves eliminating the rights of us
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, it's only a problem for non-DRM content. But the long term goal is to make DRM ubiquitous, at which point there won't be very much non-DRM content.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
Palladium is truly evil and a tamperproof drm system from the ground up that is highly controlled.
TCPA is just an encryption card solderied onto the motherboard.
Very different.
You can turn off TCPA, but in palladium each component will have a scc chip that will handshake with each other component and the nexus chip soldiered on board. IF one component is not disablable then it won't work! This includes even the CPU and VIDEO CARDS!
More info is here [microsoft.com]
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
OpenCores isn't a company. The best comparison is probably an immature version of the Debian Project [debian.org].
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
Apple and IBM will comply, once the consumers shrug their collective shoulders. Americans are good at shrugging their shoulders. Just look at what happened in the last three months.
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
Re:non DRM computers? (Score:2)
Most all of them. AFAIK you will still be able to install Linux on a "secure" Dell in the future. Also, when it comes to Windows, all of the DRM features can be disabled. The caveot? You can't access DRM media. For those of us who won't buy DRM'd media, it's Windows as usual.
Re:non DRM computers? Macs! (Score:2)
Yes they have both a software and hardware monopoly, but at least they are nicer in regards to DRM. After all Intel/Microsoft are in bed together so its which dictator do you want?
All I know is Apple's DRM Itunes store will let you play the files on up to 3 macs and you can keep the files playable on newer macs that you can choose!
Why should you suffer because Bill wants people to run his software and be the gatekeeper and eliminate competition because he has the keys to your computer? Why shou
Markoff!!!!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
for those of you who don't know, Markoff is the journalist who wrote several articles about kevin mitnick in which he "created the myth of kevin mitnick" (in kevin's words). many untrue allegations were presented as supposed facts.
but don't let that discourage you from reading the article.
Re:Markoff!!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Mitnick!!!! (Score:3, Interesting)
Weasel wording (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Weasel wording (Score:5, Funny)
- For example, Mr. Juarez, the Microsoft executive, said that if the company created a more secure side to its operating system software, customers might draw the conclusion that its current software is not as safe to use.
NO!! Y'think?Article Text (For those who don't want to reg.) (Score:4, Informative)
As PC makers prepare a new generation of desktop computers with built-in hardware controls to protect data and digital entertainment from illegal copying, the industry is also promising to keep information safe from tampering and help users avoid troublemakers in cyberspace.
Silicon Valley -- led by Microsoft and Intel -- calls the concept "trusted computing." The companies, joined by I.B.M., Hewlett-Packard, Advanced Micro Devices and others, argue that the new systems are necessary to protect entertainment content as well as safeguard corporate data and personal privacy against identity theft. Without such built-in controls, they say, Hollywood and the music business will refuse to make their products available online.
But by entwining PC software and data in an impenetrable layer of encryption, critics argue, the companies may be destroying the very openness that has been at the heart of computing in the three decades since the PC was introduced. There are simpler, less intrusive ways to prevent illicit file swapping over the Internet, they say, than girding software in so much armor that new types of programs from upstart companies may have trouble working with it.
"This will kill innovation," said Ross Anderson, a computer security expert at Cambridge University, who is organizing opposition to the industry plans. "They're doing this to increase customer lock-in. It will mean that fewer software businesses succeed and those who do succeed will be large companies."
Critics complain that the mainstream computer hardware and software designers, under pressure from Hollywood, are turning the PC into something that would resemble video game players, cable TV and cellphones, with manufacturers or service providers in control of which applications run on their systems.
In the new encrypted computing world, even the most mundane word-processing document or e-mail message would be accompanied by a software security guard controlling who can view it, where it can be sent and even when it will be erased. Also, the secure PC is specifically intended to protect digital movies and music from online piracy.
But while beneficial to the entertainment industry and corporate operations, the new systems will not necessarily be immune to computer viruses or unwanted spam e-mail messages, the two most severe irritants to PC users.
"Microsoft's use of the term `trusted computing' is a great piece of doublespeak," said Dan Sokol, a computer engineer based in San Jose, Calif., who was one of the original members of the Homebrew Computing Club, the pioneering PC group. "What they're really saying is, `We don't trust you, the user of this computer.' "
The advocates of trusted computing argue that the new technology is absolutely necessary to protect the privacy of users and to prevent the theft of valuable intellectual property, a reaction to the fact that making a perfect digital copy is almost as easy as clicking a mouse button.
"It's like having a little safe inside your computer," said Bob Meinschein, an Intel security architect. "On the corporate side the value is much clearer," he added, "but over time the consumer value of this technology will become clear as well" as more people shop and do other business transactions online.
Industry leaders also contend that none of this will stifle innovation. Instead, they say, it will help preserve and expand general-purpose computing in the Internet age.
"We think this is a huge innovation story," said Mario Juarez, Microsoft's group product manager for the company's security business unit. "This is just an extension of the way the current version of Windows has provided innovation for players up and down the broad landscape of computing."
The initiative is based on a new specification for personal computer hardware, first introduced in 2000 and backed by a group of companies called the Trusted Compu
Re:Article Text (For those who don't want to reg.) (Score:2)
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/30/technology/30SE
Re:Article Text (For those who don't want to reg.) (Score:2)
one thing the public never seems to get . . . lol (Score:5, Insightful)
COME ON! please, why do they make such claims?! or why do journalists make such claims? i think the establishment/private companies/whatever has been proved wrong on that issue over and over and OVER again. if there's someone who actually thinks their data is totally secure these days . . .
another point: this initiative could be very dangerous. buying OS's with this crap already on them, limiting what you can do . .. so, what, should we stock up on Win2000, XP, and Linux OS's along with our CD and DVD burners?
DRM may stop the morons, but soon enough, once a few "l33ts" circumvent it and it gets released into the wild, what's the point.
Re:one thing the public never seems to get . . . l (Score:2)
Re:one thing the public never seems to get . . . l (Score:2)
You don't need to "crack it". Trusted Computing has as its design goal exactly this sort of functionality: allowing networks of computers to trust that all the systems will behave in a predictable way. No one seems to understand that Microsoft wants this kind of functionality. DRM is only part of the picture. TC allows fo
impenetrable encryption (Score:2)
COME ON! please, why do they make such claims?!
My understanding is that if the chosen key is sufficiently large, like 2048 bits, then the encryption really is impenetrable, i.e. not breakable even by brute force given even the computing power years from now. Example: the xbox, a device with a 2048-bit key, has not been compromised, and a large scale distributed attack was dismissed even by those who dislike Microsoft as a
Re:impenetrable encryption (Score:2)
After all, it seems to me that if every piece of equipment that can play media has to have DRM, odds are that *someone* will screw up somewhere and leave the backdoor wide open...
Re:Uh huh.. (Score:2, Insightful)
The system used will always be breakable unless they can find a way to rid us of non-compliant technology, and the technology in my house will always be non-compliant.
who do you trust (Score:5, Insightful)
when you get a commercial digital certificate you are expressing trust.
in a well designed (large) system you would build in multiple trusts to act as a check and balance. sort of an auditing feature. novell is real big on this.
i find it interesting that the ms model of trust is pretty much putting all your eggs in what is mostly their basket. no auditing, no accountability, etc.
i suspect that we will see more distributed trust as companies and isps become more involved in this.
eric
Re:who do you trust (Score:2)
Re:who do you trust (Score:2)
With Trusted Computing, it is the program which is trusted - to behave as it was coded to behave!
I remember when I was a kid, there was a book distributed by the John Birch Society (ultra right wingers): "You can Trust the Communists" A shocking title for the days of M
Jobs' comment (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Jobs' comment (Score:2)
Not if, but when.
And not necessarily a flaw, but also a workaround/hack.
The meaning of trust (Score:5, Interesting)
The word "trust" is pretty much the central idea in formal security. And ultimately is comes down to deciding if one person trusts another person. Of course when you mix in technologies, then that expands into trusting the system components. Do you trust the website is the correct one? Do you trust the CA registrar. Do you trust that the web browser isn't lying to you. Do you trust that your keyboard isn't recording all your keystrokes? Its all about trust, and no secure system can avoid the subject. And no formal security method can avoid it either.
So yes, trusted security is very much alive, or it had better be, or we won't have any security. But the big question is whom or what is being trusted? And the big media companies are trying their best to confuse the issue. It's just like their "secure media". Their concept of trust is that they, the media distributors, want to be able to trust your hardware to not trust you the consumer. They also want to also insure that other consumers will not trust you, or you could otherwise become your own media producer and distributor and compete with them. If DVD players only play content that is digitally signed by the cartel, then you are barred from competing because you can no longer produce your own content that other's hardware will trust. But on the other side I want to trust that my computer is not infected with a virus; I want to trust that my legally copied media is not corrupted by the media police. Trust is the just the tool.
Trusted computed could be a very good thing, but you absolutely must define what you mean by trust before you can begin any discussion or evaluation, or to say whether it it "bad" or "good". From a purely technical and formal perspective trusted computing is the next step forward. From a society's perspective the answer is not so easy.
Re:The meaning of trust (Score:2)
Re:The meaning of trust (Score:2)
You won't be able to alter or patch your browser without the remote server being able to find out that you have done so. Once your browser is loaded into memory and is running, you won't be able to debug it or alter or inspect its memory. Those are the limitations imposed by the trusted computing concep
Re:The meaning of trust (Score:2)
Lordy, imagine the fun with web pages that take advantage of the user's consequent inability to turn off a "trusted" feature. (Javascript, automatic software [trojan] installs, homepage hijacking...)
Whereas right now, I can do any horrible thing I want to my browser, because it's my own damned business; and it doesn't go off and do naughty update
Re:The meaning of trust (Score:3, Informative)
In practice this is achieved by having some secure hardware report a hash of the program's c
Re:The meaning of trust (Score:2, Insightful)
In other words: You can't have a door and guarentee only one person can enter said door.
(Ya I realize that wasn't exactly what you were saying...)
trusted computing? (Score:4, Insightful)
it originally meant protecting user keys via a secured tcpa chip (not drm). then microsoft started their trustworthy campaign and included palladium's announcement and that somehow changed the definition to include drm. so please, keep that in mind. palladium and tcpa are not the same thing.
Re:trusted computing? (Score:2)
Go read this. [microsoft.com]
In TCPA only the single TCPA chip and the bios encrypts data. Micosoft's answer looks like a nightmare of encryption chips doing PKI with the nexus chip and integrated cpu, bios, video card, hard drive, dvd, nic, etc. Yep thats right all the pheripherals will have scc encryption chips using a secure channel over the bus. Bill Gates called them bouncers and is designed to be tamperproof. If you crack one key the other component will reencrypt the data and may report it to Microso
Finally, the mistake that ruins M$ (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Finally, the mistake that ruins M$ (Score:2)
I'll go with the PS2 or the Xbox for gaming and go purely Linux on my server and desktops. The only reason why I have Doze is for games... But with PC games getting increasingly dumbed down, etc, I may as well get a console (haven't had one since the Genesis, and before that the Atari 2600).
Or, alternately, I may look to purchasing an Apple. I'd prefer to HAVE an Apple, as I love the idea of a truly consumer friendly Unix OS (though Linux is improv
Re:Finally, the mistake that ruins M$ (Score:2)
"Trusted computing", baloney (Score:5, Insightful)
If the Wintel crowd were serious about security, they'd push for a hardware architecture that supports secure microkernels really well and put a very partitioned OS on top of it. But no; it's all about boot-time lock in.
Re:"Trusted computing", baloney (Score:2)
What do you think the Palladium nexus is?
Absolutely agree! (Score:3, Insightful)
To counter your point, modern versions of Widows do use the CPU protections to stop programs from doing anything they want. They cannot randomly jump into the kernel or change it.
However this reinforces your point:
1. The CPU protections are hardware protections that stop "bad" programs (outside the kernel) from messing with "good" ones (inside the kernel).
2. This hardware protection is absolutley bullet
Re:"Trusted computing", baloney (Score:3, Insightful)
That's stuff you need to support DRM and crypto. None of the real security features I listed are in there. It won't prevent your Windows machine from being taken over by every worm and virus that comes along. It might prevent some attacks that steal your credit card number, but that's about it. Even that protection would probably work only i
Positive sides (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Positive sides (Score:2)
No, that's totally mistaken. TCPA (recently renamed TCG [trustedcom...ggroup.org]) is essentially identical to Palladium/NGSCB in its basic security goals. TCPA provides for exactly the same kind of features, including the "secure attestation" which is the core requirement for DRM.
This is the feature whereby the TCPA chip (called the TPM) computes a cryptographic hash of the software that loads, and then reports
Re:Positive sides (Score:2)
Unless you consider it identical so signing code modules. There are reasons for that. But that's not what the articles are talking about.
Re:Positive sides (Score:5, Insightful)
TCPA is going to be bad for more reasons than just Palladium... it's going to be a major headache for IT departments trying to cope with software that is actively unfriendly. Why? It's about visibility. When an IT department needs to replace a legacy app, write bridge code to shuffle data b/t two different software systems, or make revisions to a relic in-house app, the amount of visibility will determine how quickly and cheaply the change can be accomplished.
Visible things include: good documentation, available source code, standard protocals, open data formats, strongly defined interfaces, generous/lax security, unencrypted traffic, non-regulated/classified data, informative error messages, enthusiastic vendor support, open bug databases, and software-oriented community forums (yay Google Groups!).
Invisible things include: missing/shoddy/incomplete documentation, overly-flexible products, binary network protocals and file formats, marketing-centric websites [heh... just try to find technical info about Crystal Reports [crystaldecisions.com]], "friendly" error messages, abandoned development platforms, and (getting to the point)... stuff that's too locked down.
DRM and trusted computing will add yet another layer of flaky security that prevents casual intrustion while seriously hendering IT. Businesses will be tantalized by the idea that they can precisely control how a memo get distributed, archived, and destroyed. They will be oohed and ahhed that they can enforce their "email retention policies" through the use of TCPA. But this will come with some heavy costs... of which visibility is one of the major ones. I can see it now:
- Client: "Here's that email you needed to hook up system A to system B, but I can't send it to you. It says it's protected. I tried taking a screenshot, but it came out all black. I can't seem to print it out either. We could probably call Ginger and find out who could give the authorization to transfer this, but she's not here today. How about I just read it to you over the phone?" [Stupid DRMish Feature]
- Product Expert: "Oh yeah... to import text records into RiskModeller3000, you have to create an executable and pay the vendor a wad of cash to sign it. Only then will RiskModeller be willing to execute your binary and munch in the text it produces." [Stupid Licensing Scheme]
- Packaging Expert: "To transfer this program from our testing environment to the produciton environment, you'll need to recompile the binary and sign it with this 'production certificate'... hope your build environment hasn't shifted around much or you'll blow the integrity of all that 'final release testing' your clients just spent four weeks on." [Stupid Security Requirement]
Visibility affects the agility of business and the cost of IT. It's not just an abstract good... it provides lubrication for business IT and reduces real cost. A company with a lot of visibility will be more agile and flexible than one without it. And, in the final analysis, a society with visibility will generate more wealth than one that gets too tangled up in an artifical form of security. TMCA is basically bad, because--while it could have good uses--it will ultimately reduce visibility and harm society.It's not just about pirating MP3's... it's about the creation of real wealth and new technologies.
Knockin' at your back door... (Score:4, Interesting)
Does anyone believe for a minute the US will allow Microsoft to ship, worldwide, a truly secure "solution?" Of course not - even in the (very) unlikely event MS actually ships a Pall-Windows without cryptographic backdoors no one will believe it. All those foreign countries are gonna have to choose between adopting linux or being Bill's bitch, and they're gonna have to get motherboards and CPU chips from somewhere. And once they're running linux the only remaining half of the "wintel" brand has lost its grip on the market. If AMD and intel won't ship pal-free chips you can be sure there are other semiconductor companies just chomping at the bit to take their places. And in the meantime we just might make networked computing a bit more secure.
"Industry leaders" (Score:4, Insightful)
What the Industry Leaders mean is that the Industry Leaders will not be stifled. The rest of the industry should just not worry their little heads. It will all be done for us by those who know best.
I see a Lindows parallel here (Score:5, Insightful)
What happens when a someone gets one of these new Trusted systems home and realizes that they can't use it as expected? What happens when it doesn't let them them burn audio CD's or play previous burned songs on CD-R/W's? What happens when they have trouble just opening word processing or spreadsheet files, because they are not considered "trusted"? Even email could become a problem.
I see this whole "Trusted" initiative by Microsoft as a potential boon to open source software developers and even "white box" computer manufacturers.
Word will get out: "Don't buy any of the new Hewlett-Packards with that new Windows. They just don't work!" Microsoft has already turned many corporations against them with the new License 6.0 scheme. "Trusted" computing could turn many home users against Microsoft and all of the hardware manufacturers who have thrown their lot in with them.
Re:I see a Lindows parallel here (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately, that's liable to come too late for most of the market, especially for the tiny fraction comprised of us geeks. Once DRM-in-hardware gets entrenched and Average Joe gets used to it
This is what they call Progress? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:This is what they call Progress? (Score:2)
I don't care about the unequal sharing of the blessings, that is after all what motivates people to do wonderful things, paid or not. It is the unequal sharing of opportunity that is the problem.
And things like DRM, outrageous copyrights, software patents, and illegal "Redmond" monopolies are fundamentally about eliminating opportunity or unfairly sharing opportunity; preventing people from doing wonderful things even though they
Trusted computing for the home? (Score:4, Insightful)
Another way to force upgrades on us (Score:5, Interesting)
Beyond changing the appearance and control of Windows, the system will also require a new generation of computer hardware, not only replacing the computer logic board but also peripherals like mice, keyboards and video cards
Like most new Windows features, I don't see anything in this that the consumer actually wants, I think it is just a way to force yet another upgrade on us.
Re:Another way to force upgrades on us (Score:2)
And the public will eventually figure this out. Indeed, I think they have already. Windows XP wasn't exactly the huge boost in sales, or cause for "upgrades" that earlier `Doze releases were.
Although I have to say I like XP, and think it is a better `Doze in that it gives you the compatability of 9X with the stability of 2K (well, most of it anyway)
Re:Another way to force upgrades on us (Score:2)
Re:Another way to force upgrades on us (Score:3, Interesting)
You know, this is irritating... (Score:5, Insightful)
Security researchers are putting a lot of effort into defining trust relationships and developing guidelines for applying the term "trusted" to software. Has the software design been verified? How about the code? Who verified the design and audited the code? Have there been security problems in the past? Is the concept fundamentally compatible with security?
Then along come the MPAA and RIAA, and they convince Microsoft (among others) to start talking about a totally fucking DIFFERENT definition of "trusted". Whereas the OLD definition of "trusted" involved concepts like integrity, secrecy, reliability, and auditability, the NEW meaning of "trusted" is essentially "crippled".
As somebody who studies security for a living, it irritates me to see the two concepts confused. Microsoft's DRM-enabled operating systems will NOT include the features I've outlined above, and a highly "trusted" operating system could very well include software that allows you to "rip, mix, and burn" just as people are accustomed to doing today.
Really, just who is "trusting" the DRM operating systems? Not the users-- I imagine there will be just as many viruses and exploits and bugs as before. Not software developers-- Microsoft hasn't really announced any plans to do things like, say, encrypt the swap space or integrate stack protection into their linkers, loaders, and compilers.
In fact, the only people who are really trusting the DRM operating systems are the content industry associations. Which makes sense, as Microsoft and company are essentially doing the whole "trusted computing" thing at the behest of the MPAA's congressional whore [senate.gov].
Please, folks, let's call a spade a spade: the DRM-enabled operating systems are NOT "trusted". They're "content-industry-friendly". They're "crippled". They're a lot of things, but they're not "trusted".
Let's start asking for some precision of language, here.
Re:You know, this is irritating... (Score:2)
And what about viruses or trojans that spoof the system? if the "trusted BIOS" gets cracked, which I think is inevitable, how long before we see viruses that attack the system at that level, and thereby gain access to everything else? And if they alter BIOS code, they might be impossible to remove short of reflashing
Re:You know, this is irritating... (Score:2)
The cynic (realist) in me says this is a large part of the reason DRM will not be rolled out full blast from the start.
The obvious is that MS wants users to slowly get used to the idea of having less control and real features available, in exchange for chrome essentially, and promises of security.
Which brings up the second reason. When the inevitable ha
Trusting Trusted Computing (Score:2, Funny)
I trust Microsoft R&D to come up with good security concepts, but I don't trust Microsoft to implement the good security concepts without having giant security holes in them. Then they can make programs that monitor/protect the security holes in the other security programs, and they will have holes, too. This would be an infinite recursion, BTW.
I can see the ad now:
Security programs with security problems. Only from Microsoft.
ROFL at the Microsoft guy (Score:2)
"We think this is a huge innovation story," said Mario Juarez, Microsoft's group product manager for the company's security business unit. "This is just an extension of the way the current version of Windows has provided innovation for players up and down the broad landscape of computing."
Well! If this is more of that same innovation Windows is known for, we know just how worthless to the end consumer this will be! Thanks for the
What's in It for Me?? (Score:5, Insightful)
The very things that computer users want to be protected from--viruses and the tons of spam messages--are not addressed with these "improvements".
As eloquently outlined in the Times article: the new encrypted computing world, even the most mundane word-processing document or e-mail message would be accompanied by a software security guard controlling who can view it, where it can be sent and even when it will be erased. Also, the secure PC is specifically intended to protect digital movies and music from online piracy. But while beneficial to the entertainment industry and corporate operations, the new systems will not necessarily be immune to computer viruses or unwanted spam e-mail messages, the two most severe irritants to PC users. "Microsoft's use of the term `trusted computing' is a great piece of doublespeak," said Dan Sokol, a computer engineer based in San Jose, Calif., who was one of the original members of the Homebrew Computing Club, the pioneering PC group. "What they're really saying is, `We don't trust you, the user of this computer.' "
In "trusted computing" the public gets no security; the FAT entertainment industry gets fatter; and the common man is unduly scrutinized.
Let's hope our everyday "Joe Consumer" rebels. If Intel comes out with a chip with this trusted-Big-Brother component, I hope the American consumer leaves it rotting on the shelves.
Money talks, b.s. walks. If the public refuses to buy this garbage which is hyped to protect them, perhaps the companies will look at this trusted computing issue again and drop it in the trash can it belongs.
OSS and DRM and MS Hardware (Score:5, Insightful)
OTOH it looks like this stuff will only effect Intel and MS products. Personally, I have always used Apple products myself. It has protected me from MS viral licenses. It has protected me from Intel's occasional desire to track all users. It is now protecting me from silly DRM schemes that do nothing but protect antique business models. Apple has done more for security by allowing the user to turn off HTML in mail.app that MS could possibly hope to do in a decade.
The same could be said for GNU/Linux and other non-MS users. For these users there are only three concerns. First, laws could be passed to require certain attributes in entire classes of software. For example, as the article suggests, all email and music might have to be signed with a CPU generated hash. Of course all advanced users know that such technology could be circumvented, and, even with laws against circumvention, such actions will routinely occur.
Second, the makers of Intel clone chips might, and probably will, succumb to pressure and include security features. This would be bad because right now OSS is very tied to Intel class chips. The solution to this is to build open hardware platforms around non-Intel class chips, and create OSS projects that run on such platforms. Intel may be a slave to MS, but AMD and others might be more scared of lost sales due to OSS moving to Motorola and IBM chipsets. In five years if OSS is still tied to the Intel instruction set, and Intel is only making chips that spy on the user, there will be no one to blame.
The third issue comes from a quote in the article
the system will also require a new generation of computer hardware, not only replacing the computer logic board but also peripherals like mice, keyboards and video cards
from this we can infer that MS intends to push DRM to all hardware connected to the CPU, which, of course, is the logical course of action. The issue is as above. OSS runs mostly on what is essentially MS hardware. If all MS hardware requires software that is cryptographically signed and externally validated, probably by MS related service, one wonders if OSS will exist. If OSS does exist, one wonders if it would have any purpose the user was still ultimately tied to MS licenses and security schemes.
This has always been the danger of the single environment ecosystem. The OSS people seem to forget how inherently dependent on MS whims they are. One wonders if some diversification might be in order.
Re:OSS and DRM and MS Hardware (Score:2)
Ok, if we dump the x86 hardware, what do we use?
I know that Linux could be easily modified to run on something like IBM's PPC 970 chip, but will we be able to buy motherboards, hard drives, keyboards, sound cards, etc that will work with it?
I have my doubts as to whether MS will be able to succeed in this effort... IF they do, it will have to be an incrimental thing. Suddenly having your OS refuse to let you install other software, and your hardware like the mouse refusing to ta
It's simple... (Score:5, Funny)
This is actually a shift in product... and not... (Score:4, Insightful)
Face it, the software market is pretty much saturated from their perspective, and there isn't much room for growth on the desktop compared with previous years.
What MS discovered, about two years ago, was that they could sell a completely different product. What MS discovered was Radio.
Radio doesn't make money by playing songs. Radio makes money by selling its listeners. Now, take a re-think of the Trusted Platform from that perspective, and what it's purpose will be completely obvious.
Web links to TCPA and Microsoft NGSCB (Palladium) (Score:2)
Re:Web links to TCPA and Microsoft NGSCB (Palladiu (Score:2, Interesting)
The goal is to learn from each other....
BUT, we also view this board as a two-way education channel. Ultimately, we'd like to see academia work with the industry to inculcate more security concepts into a technical education, because it's not just a technology problem or a computer science problem. ***It's a social problem***. If
Will you all stop your bitching already!?!?!?!? (Score:2)
I can not wait for Anal-intrusive DRM to be included on every windows OS and Intel PC processor on the market.
In fact, I wish it was here right now.
I am salivating at the prospect of LAN wide system lock outs, Entire OS installtions destroyed because of stolen/forged Serial Numbers, the inability for a persson to have 2 copies of an app their my own equiptment, the deletion of personal files and monitoring of internet usage.
In fact, I hope they use and abuse
Will China step in to save the day? (Score:4, Insightful)
With most of the world's electronics manufacturing business in China anyway, I guess this means we'll all be running Linux on Chinese developed and manufactured hardware in a few years, while Microsoft, Intel and AMD all sit around in the wreckage of their once profitable empires wondering what went wrong.
Here's a hint guys: You forgot what made the PC platform great in the first place: Freedom.
Call it freedom to innovate, freedom to fsck up a computer beyond repair, freedom to write a virus or freedom to swap files. Whatever. But try taking our freedom away and you will face the consequences.
Now that would be a deliciuos irony, wouldn't it. America and the West taking away the freedom of all computer users, and the Chinese coming to the rescue and restoring our freedom.
Amen (Score:2, Insightful)
You're right.
I was there for the beginnings of the PC. We built them and bought them, even when they couldn't do much because we believed in the dream of freedom and computing and saying "fuck you" to big companies with their vision of how we should use their computers.
Now 2 generations later, we seemed bound and determined to give it all away, just so we can watch "Star Wars" on our PC. And pay every time. An
We need more PR like this. (Score:2, Interesting)
I suspect however that it will become increasingly more common for these types of things to surface as journalists and reporters LOVE to take the side
Doublethink (Score:5, Funny)
he went on to explain:
"What I mean is that we cannot have our customers using deductive reasoning to come to an obvious conclusion which might jeopardize our market share (control). Could you imagine the implications? We would rather them just trust us - and relax - big broth.. uhhh... I mean Microsoft has it all taken care of"
Dear consumer: (Score:2)
- MicroSoft
In Soviet Union Russia..... (Score:2)
Oh shit wait a minute.
Talk about Orwellian (Score:4, Insightful)
Bill Gates, Microsoft's chairman, told a technology conference in Washington on Wednesday. "This technology can make our country more secure and prevent the nightmare vision of George Orwell at the same time."
Yes Bill that's right. You can usher in the technology that may bring about Orwell's vision and at the same time help it slide through by simply claiming the exact opposite from the other side of your mouth.
Dyuh... It's somehow related to the truth, perhaps that means I should believe it.
Re:I'm already experiencing it (Score:4, Interesting)
No, that's not correct. Doing this would reduce the sales of Microsoft software, and Microsoft's goal is to sell more software rather than less.
Instead, trusted computing will add new capabilities to your system, while still letting you do everything you can do today.
These new capabilities will allow "trusted" applications to report their identity unspoofably to remote servers. The servers can then refuse to supply content to users who aren't running software which will enforce DRM rules.
So you will still be able to do what you can today; but maybe everybody else will be able to do a lot more, downloading legal content under DRM restrictions. It's not so much that Trusted Computing will restrict what you can do; it's that it opens up new possibilities, but only under rules that are effectively enforced.
Re:I'm already experiencing it (Score:3, Insightful)
Your rant is understandable to a certain extent - I've had to get around proxy restrictions on some client sites to read my corporate email. But that's how it is. Their network, their pipe, their computers, their money, their rules. Work at home or go into landscaping if you don't like that sort of thing. Further, your post implies that, since