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Reverse Engineering an MPEG Driver 275

An anonymous reader writes "Following on from the recent spate of reverse engineering articles, there is an interesting summary of the reverse engineering of a binary only Linux driver. The driver is for the integrated MPEG decoder on VIA's popular EPIA-M boards. At the moment VIA has not publicly released the source code for the MPEG chipset on these boards and will only make the code available under NDA saying that "Typically, only requests from companies developing product for sale will be approved." As a result this is holding back development of open source tools (e.g. xine, mplayer, vdr) that would be able to make use of the interesting hardware on these boards."
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Reverse Engineering an MPEG Driver

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  • by bromoseltzer ( 23292 ) * on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:38PM (#6820481) Homepage Journal
    He took the binary code and inferred a C language program that would produce the same code. Very clever, but I thought reverse engineering worked on a functional level.

    IANAL, but I don't think the source code is legally safe if VIA wants to go after it.

    -mse

    • by diamondc ( 241058 ) <[moc.oohay] [ta] [mfleirbag]> on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:40PM (#6820488) Homepage
      This guy lives in Italy, safe from terrible US IP laws.
    • by Atario ( 673917 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:53PM (#6820570) Homepage

      From the article:

      Also some of the logic could be detemined by decoding binary flag fields. For example:

      push gVIAGraphicInfo
      push 805476C3h
      push fVideo
      call ioctl

      Can now be decoded into the rather more readable:-

      ioctl(fVideo,
      _IOR('v', //118 192+3,
      VIAGRAPHICINFO),//0x805476C3, &gVIAGraphicInfo )

      Oh yeah. Much more readable.

    • by dmayle ( 200765 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:55PM (#6820577) Homepage Journal
      Unfortunately, to be safe, you have to load the library in a debugger, and are only allowed to look at the data being sent to the chip, or returning from the chip. That would be reverse engineering the driver. However, unless there was a licensing agreement prohibiting it, dissasembling the driver to learn how it works is a legal way to learn how to use the chip, so long as your end goal is not writing a drop-in replacement for the library. Think of it like this: Reading from a book on programming is learning, and legal. Copying from a book on programming (whether word for word, or paraphrasing) in order to write your own book on programming is illegal.
      • However, unless there was a licensing agreement prohibiting it, dissasembling the driver to learn how it works is a legal way to learn how to use the chip, so long as your end goal is not writing a drop-in replacement for the library.
        So do you think he took too much risk by publishing his results without writing his own driver first?
    • by twitter ( 104583 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:56PM (#6820586) Homepage Journal
      He took the binary code and inferred a C language program that would produce the same code.

      It won't produce the same code. Different compilers do things different ways. In the end the binary produced will run the hardware the same way and that's the goal.

      Very clever, but I thought reverse engineering worked on a functional level.

      He did do functional analysis to make it work. He understood what the thing was doing. If he did not, his code would never have worked. He made little doodles and what have you to make it clear to himself. Now it's in C, the diagrams are much easier to make, though we can be sure he's going to share his diagrams as well. That way other people can make nice software too.

      IANAL, but I don't think the source code is legally safe if VIA wants to go after it.

      I don't know why you think that. He could have had his computer tell him what it was doing instead of using IDC, no? It's not like he dumpster dived code like old Bill Gates did BASIC. He understood what the code did and reimplemented it himself. Even if he did have dumpster dived code, he could use that to make a functional diagram and then use that to write new code and the results would be the same.

      If there is a legal problem with this, there should not be. Why should people be afraid to understand what their machines do and then share that information? So someone else can make money of evryone else's ignorance? Shit, no one would be able to get anything done that way.

      • I believe that if you used dumpster dived code to make a diagram, and then used that to make the code you are open for abuse. Because you could have accidentaly infringed.

        The coder and the diagramer should be different people for clean reverse engineering.
    • There didn't seem to be any evidence in the article of any deep understanding; he's really just talking about a line-by-line translation. I wouldn't call this reverse engineering, either; more like "manually decompiling" to C, starting from the disassembler output.
    • by yellowstone ( 62484 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @11:05PM (#6820883) Homepage Journal
      He took the binary code and inferred a C language program that would produce the same code. Very clever, but I thought reverse engineering worked on a functional level.
      Well, this is definitely not a 'clean room' reverse engineering.

      To do a clean room implementation, you need to have two teams:

      1. The first team digs into the implementation, and produces a document specifying the interface.
      2. The second team uses the specification produced by the first team to create an implementation.
      This is a clean-room implementation when the only communication between the two teams is via the specification: A) No one who sees the original implementation works on the new implementation and B) No one who works on the new implementation looks at the original implementation
  • Does it work yet? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by FryGuy1013 ( 664126 ) * on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:40PM (#6820486) Homepage
    To me, it just seemed like a general description of the RE process that people able to RE already know. EPIA M boxes are already good for small PVR boxes using mythtv [mythtv.org] when a Hauppauge PVR card is added (and a larger power supply). If the MPEG decoder can be used, I'm sure that even the lesser models of EPIA will be able to be used.
  • What about DMCA? (Score:2, Informative)

    by U-Boot_96 ( 620370 )
    Should developers/users be afraid of the iron fist of moronic law in this case?
    Or is it perfectly legal and VIA can not do anything about it? They seem to have an interest in suppresing such efforts though, since they've stated they are interested in revealing the code only to entities that want to make a buck off of it.
    So, even if DMCA dosn't apply here, are there any chances they could be nasty about it? U-Boot
    • by Wumpus ( 9548 ) <[IAmWumpus] [at] [gmail.com]> on Thursday August 28, 2003 @10:57PM (#6820848)
      I believe that distribution of this code would be illegal, since it is a derivative work based on VIA's library. I haven't seen VIA's license, by typically those licenses prohibit redistribution, reverse engineering, and disclosure of any trade secrets.

      The reverse engineering itself is probably still legal, arguably, if it is done to enable someone to write software that interoperates with the decoder. To be safe, I would assume that it's probably better to write such software for an operating system that VIA doesn't support - QNX, for example. (One could argue that the BSDs' ability to run Linux binaries voids the interoperability argument if one were to write a BSD driver, but what do I know?).

      You should also make sure that the person writing the final open source code hasn't seen VIA's decompiled source. Typically this is done by having one person or team reverse engineer the code, document the hardware, and toss the hardware documentation over the wall to the driver team.

    • Yeah, I thought it was illegal to:

      - Reverse engineer anything
      - Post a link to an article on reverse engineering something
      - Follow said link and read the article
      - Discuss the article
      - Post a reply (ad nauseum).
      • THere are exceptions made to reverse engineering. One of them is that it is specifically legal to reverse engineer for the purpose of interoperability. If this wasn't the case, MS would have already steamrolled Samba right out of existance.
  • Free, but not Free (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dancin_Santa ( 265275 ) <DancinSanta@gmail.com> on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:42PM (#6820501) Journal
    Driver code is the biggest liability that a device maker has. It earns no money, it costs quite a bit to make, and it must be written multiple times for multiple platforms and operating systems.

    Via's reluctance to free the driver software is pure evil. They sit like slavemasters on the code and hold it hostage as if it were a servant or slave.

    Even if the reverse engineering works out and the code runs equally well as the enslaved code, what will become of the original unfree code? Will that unfortunate code be relegated to living out the rest of its days in slavery? Sadly, I think the answer is affirmative.

    Who will fight for the rights of software? I only wish the FSF was more vocal about the Freedom of Software that they purportedly base their ideology upon.
    • Kudos man... your post is a more worthy read than an autopsy of reverse-engineered codes...

      At least it made me laughed.
    • by rbullo ( 625328 )
      Driver code is the biggest liability that a device maker has. It earns no money, it costs quite a bit to make, and it must be written multiple times for multiple platforms and operating systems.
      So release the hardware specs, and let the Open Source community write the drivers for them. This lets the manufacturer cut prices, and frees them to focus on other things.

      Am I right? Or would companies not go for this?
    • by Svartalf ( 2997 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:52PM (#6820556) Homepage
      In actuality, they released everything BUT the driver info for the MPEG stuff. They handed the 2D and 3D over to the DRI and XFree86 people- Alan Cox was working on making the drivers all nice and clean up until recently.

      From what I got from my contacts at SiS and VIA when I was working on set-top box designs using their chipsets was that the stuff was being held to an NDA because of contractual reasons. My ignorant guess would be that there's something with regards to the MPEG patent licensing that prevents the details being released for piracy prevention reasons because the use of these accelerators would enable real-time/near real-time transcoding of DVDs, etc.

      This is not to say that I'm right, or if I am, that it's a good reason.
    • by BrynM ( 217883 ) *
      Do you discipline slave code with a CAT5 bullwhip?

      But seriously, you bring up a good point. Companies that GPL or OSS their driver code are doing themselves a favor and saving a lot of the money that would be spent supporting the code later on. I hope that we'll see someone release hardware someday on an open spec with just an OSS reference driver so the community can build the driver from scratch on a new product. Initial sales might be a little flat, but that company could save lots of cash in the long

      • If I'm wrong and some company is already doing this, let me know.

        Actually there are several GPL'd official drivers out there, but the only one I know of off the bat is some recent LKML traffic indicating that Promise GPL'd their pdc-ultra Serial ATA driver, and that it might be getting worked into the kernel.
      • by dasmegabyte ( 267018 ) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Friday August 29, 2003 @12:32AM (#6821278) Homepage Journal
        How are they doing themselves a favor?

        Most hardware companies use off the shelf parts. They aren't designing the technology so much as lciensing it and marketting it. The ONLY reason they are able to make money off of their products is that they have something that Generic Q. Solderinggun doesn't -- they have the ability to interface these hardware chips with a computer. And all of that magic happens in the driver.

        I've seen lies here that drivers don't make money, and this is simply ludicrous. Let's take a real world example: back in 1997, both Iomega and Miro (later Pinnacle) marketted an MJPEG video input box based off of a Zoran chip. Zoran made a very very nice chip capable of massive resolutions, dozens of colour modes and bus mastering and all kinds of kick ass stuff. However, Iomega skimped on their drivers. The result was a product that was totally unable to operate at spec, because the driver had a fundamental flaw that prevented it from capturing at 29.976. Savvy video users quickly learned to cap at 30.10, drop a frame, and save $100+ over the cost of the similar Miro card. However, no matter how much the Slashdot community would like to think otherwise, you can't make money selling to ONLY savvy users. Iomega promptly dropped support, even though late model drivers were FIXING the issues. Miro, on the other hand, made money off of their superior drivers for years to come. Those drivers made that money.

        If Miro opened the source of their drivers, GPL or otherwise, nothing would have stopped Iomega from getting them, modding them slightly to include their hardware, and releasing them back to the community. After all, they're not selling them. Good for everybody, right?

        No good for Miro, whose dilligence in driver manufacture has just cost them countless sales. Their hardware is now just the sale as the other guy's but sells for much more.

        Why the hell do you want hardware companies to lose money for your hobby? Are you so vain that you really think your 3% of the marketshare is worth that much to the VIAs of the world?
        • I'm assuming you're talking about IoMega's "BUZZ".

          The drivers were so bad, they would often lock up the computer or crash Premiere after capturing 2 or 3 minutes of video. Total crap; we had to return ours.

          Miro's worked fine, so it wasn't a problem with the computer.
    • by captaineo ( 87164 ) * on Thursday August 28, 2003 @11:11PM (#6820915)
      Here are two legitimate reasons a hardware company might withhold driver code:

      1) They differentiate high-end and low-end versions of the same product in software only. I think Nvidia and some storage vendors do this - they sell the same card for $200 and $400, but the driver disables certain features on the $200 part. If they released the source someone could easily find a way to re-enable the "high-end" features on cheap hardware, thus erasing the product differentiation. (which would force the company to sell only the more expensive part, and everyone loses)

      2) Software-based copy prevention, a la DVD CSS, or software-based restrictions, like Macrovision. (I know at least one video card company won't release driver source because it would be obvious how to stop Macrovision from being enabled when a video player requires it)

      I'd say 2) is slightly less legitimate, but I have no problem with reason 1). I'd rather be able to buy cheap but limited hardware than not have the option at all.
      • (which would force the company to sell only the more expensive part, and everyone loses)

        Which would force them to sell the expensive part at a more reasonable price. They're charging $400 for a product they can sell with a nice profit at $200. Why should that be encouraged?
        • Because their costs are not in manufacturing; they're in design. If they had to design two different products, both would cost more.

          I think we're just beginning to see these types of products emerge, but soon every product will follow this paradigm. As more and more menial tasks are automated, the costs of manufacturing plummet in relation to the costs of design.

          I'd hate to see the day when the same refrigerator is artificially differentiated and priced based upon its energy efficiency, but I wouldn't
          • by ckaminski ( 82854 )
            Remember a year or two ago when turbo-charging your Celerons was all the rage? Intel fixed this with an ondie switch that was lasered shut at the factory to stop this. Nothing, not one thing, is preventing a manufacturer from adding $0.10 to a part for a hard-wired switch that makes a $200 part into a $400 part. If it's in software, you're still taking the chance some enterprising developer is going to figure it all out, and ruin your party.

            Most people, especially saavy ones, are not loathe to trying ou
      • 3) They plan to license their closed-source driver to OEM's that create standalone Linux products for niche markets, a la Broadcom and Linksys.

        I think this one fits this particular situation perfectly. If VIA can withold the one piece of the puzzle (hardware decoding) that opens the door to easy, cheap, upgradeable DVR boxes and license that piece to lots of different companies, VIA wins.
  • Er... (Score:5, Funny)

    by slackingme ( 690217 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:44PM (#6820509) Homepage Journal
    But does it ru--
    Nevermind, no points to spare :)
  • by ultrapenguin ( 2643 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:45PM (#6820520)
    I've setup a mirror for the source at http://43.244.87.231/cle266.tgz [43.244.87.231]

    Be nice to it, and check the original site after slashdot effect goes away.
  • irony (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mo ( 2873 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:49PM (#6820538)
    The silly thing with all of this is that the drivers and support for this card that result from the reverse engineering will ultimately result in more sales. It seems so counter-intuitive for VIA to resist this.
    • the fist of M$ (Score:3, Insightful)

      by twitter ( 104583 )
      The silly thing with all of this is that the drivers and support for this card that result from the reverse engineering will ultimately result in more sales. It seems so counter-intuitive for VIA to resist this.

      Can you imagine what would happen to VIA's sales if they somehow offended M$ and M$ retaliated? They could keep VIA in the dark or give them bogus SDK info so that their hardware would not run well under Windblows. Even witholding a dinky little check here [microsoft.com] is damaging. Harware makers that defy M

    • by Fefe ( 6964 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @10:31PM (#6820742) Homepage
      First of all, it's just a small wrapper library that is comparatively easy to reverse engineer.

      Second of all, there is a library we can reverse engineer.

      Third of all, the guy is using the VIA forums to spread the word, so VIA obviously knows about this, and they haven't sued.

      To me this rather looks like they were waiting for someone to reverse engineer this, because they couldn't release the sources themselves for contractual reasons. Don't just assume people are evil, maybe they didn't have a choice and did what was in their power to give you the means to help yourself.
  • Cool! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:51PM (#6820554)
    Let's harass them for not releasing the code, reverse engineer it and post it everywhere, until they get mad and discontinue Linux driver development altogether! Then xine and mplayer will work GREAT!
    • Re:Cool! (Score:5, Funny)

      by El ( 94934 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @10:37PM (#6820770)
      Better yet, lets reverse engineer the Windows drivers instead of the Linux drivers, so then they'll get mad and discontinue Windows driver development altogether! Yeah, right...
  • why do it by hand? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MikeFM ( 12491 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:52PM (#6820560) Homepage Journal
    Why not use a program that automaticlly takes the binary and builds a C program from it? You still have to pick through the logic to give things helpful function/variable names and refactor but it'd save the step discribed here. In the past when I've reverse engineered binaries that is the type of tool I used. Any good reason for doing this by hand?

    This still begs the question.. why not just release the damn source? If we can reverse engineer the drivers what would keep the competition from doing so? Why harm your customers for a false sense of security?
    • And you know of any such programs?
      Links please?
    • It's not for a false sense of security. They KNOW we can reverse engineer the stuff- in fact, it's that very thing that prevents a LOT of toys coming our way, believe it or not. What I believe the issue to be, based off of observations, is that there's some nasty verbiage involved with the patent licensing for MPEG that precludes the release of the info or pressure from someone like the MPAA.
      • i often wonder if companies that have cheif coders that are "sympathetic" to OSS users make their products easy to revers engineer.

        For example, if someone made a video driver, refused to release it open source because of contractual problems, but made it relatively easy to pick apart a bit at a time, it would give them plausable deniability, but still help out the OSS community.

        ~Will

        • For example, if someone made a video driver, refused to release it open source because of contractual problems, but made it relatively easy to pick apart a bit at a time, it would give them plausable deniability, but still help out the OSS community.


          You mean like not stripping the binary and leaving full debug info in there?

          It happens, I can't say it's intentional but it happens.
        • Intersting. There are a number of devices that have contractural or even FCC problems. Anything with MacroObfuscation (MacroVision) has to be closed source because of NDAs. Wireless LAN cards are another area where hardware register settings must be obfuscated to assume FCC compliance and certification. That is, if the register settings could be altered then the device would start using different power levels or frequencies.

          In either case, an OSS friendly company may be aware of the legal issues about rel

      • by MikeFM ( 12491 )
        Still.. the whole point of not releasing the source is to not release the info about the device. They don't release that info because they (or someone they have licensed tech from is delusional enough to think that without the source code competitiors can't figure out that info and thus can't compete as well. Obviously people do figure out that info all the time through various means of reverse engineering.. so all they are doing is making it hard and delaying support and thus sales to non-Windows users tha
        • You're under the misapprehension that just because something CAN be done that it is USEFUL to do.

          Releasing driver source code that can be compiled is like giving a person directions to your house. Releasing a driver they're forced to reverse engineer is giving them directions through 20 questions. Yeah, they might get there...but they'll have to work MUCH harder, and it will take MUCH logner, and there's a chance it will never work as well.

          Why not make the competition work as hard as possible? It's bet
          • It sounds more like not telling customers where your business is at to me. Sure then your competition will have to work harder to find you.. but it also keeps away many potential customers. To me that seems a bad thing. As a business-man I was always trained to maximize the size of my market.

            I could see the DMCA being a possible weapon against the competition but in most cases not the effort of actually reverse engineering a driver. If the competition is expert enough to be real competition anyway then the
    • Lemmie guess, youve been 'reverse engineering' Visual Basic binaries? Or at the leastm very simplistic C programs.

      In reality, decompiling is a very difficult thing to do, and IDA pro (which they are using) does a very good job of this difficult task. You can be sure that by using this they are using one of the best tools available for dissassembly. It recognises functions etc but still retains all the low level ASM and optimised C code which is used a lot in the development of drivers which doesnt translat
      • Actually I used to decompile programs written either by hand in assembly, using the Terse programming language, or using C. For various reasons but enough to know that decompilers worked okay. I have no idea really how they'd work on a VB program.. I've never tried.. and I've never seen one worth bothering. ;)

        I've not used IDA Pro so I can't say how well it does but it sounded from his description if it stopped short of decompiling to C (or psuedo-C if you like).. and he did that step by hand. It just seem
  • Not quite done yet (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:56PM (#6820588) Homepage Journal
    Well, he has done the first part of a reverse engineering process - he has worked out, by inspection of the target, what is being done.

    However, he now needs to write the specifications for the hardware, and publish THAT, so that somebody else, somebody who has not seen the binary driver, can write a program based upon the specifications.

    Should this not be done, then this code, while interesting to individuals, would be pure poison to anybody who has any intention of distributing this code in a commercial way (e.g. a distro).

    And writing a specification for the chip, by inspecting the code, is far more difficult than simply reverse compiling the binary.
  • by RelliK ( 4466 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @09:57PM (#6820589)
    With the ever-increasing clock speed of our CPUs, what is the point of having a hardware MPEG decoder? I understand that p2-400 is sufficient to play DVD-quality movies. The amount you spend on the hardware decoder could have been better spent on memory or video card or CPU or whatever. Now, a hardware encoder would certainly be useful as encoding is still very CPU-intensive. I was contemplating a tivo-like box with a hardware encoder. Does anyone know if hardware MPEG encoders are supported on Linux?
    • I don't know what kind of p2-400 you have that can play dvd or even divx at full fps, well anyway your forgetting these are small and relatively slow via mb for those, micro-atx (is that the right name??) these things only have cpus in the 500-1000mhz range and having a hardware mpg decoder will help things out a lot when it comes to multitasking when video is involved
      • these things only have cpus in the 500-1000mhz range

        not to mention that many (most?) of them don't implement the SIMD instruction sets used to speed software decoding.

      • My DVD player is a PII-300. My laptop is a Celeron (P-II era) 366MHz, and it plays DVDs just fine.

        The secret? Stay away from Windows and MPlayer. And use a sufficiently accelerated ATI card with the open-source drivers. The XV extension makes a huge difference.

        But other than that, you're right. Hardware MPEG decoding is dirt cheap (MPEG was designed to be decoded in dirt cheap hardware) and always nice to have.
        • Maybe it doesn't work in Linux or on your specific setup, but my 'suffiently accelerated ATI card' has a hardware MPEG decoder. All of them have had it for years, AFAIK - the original Radeon did, and I am pretty sure later Rage Pros also did. So maybe you actually are using a hardware decoder without realizing it?
          • The machine I'm running this on predates the Rage Pro by quite a bit, I think. There definitely weren't any Radeons around when this machine was made. It accelerates the RGB->YUV conversion, which is great, but that's it.

            After using MPlayer for a while, you know what your hardware can do, because you have to tell it all to MPlayer. It's painful, but educational.
          • IIRC, practically all ATI cards have hardware YUV->RGB, deinterlacing, and scaling. Most have motion compensation. Recent ones have iDCT. None will take an mpeg stream and decode it entirely.

            The linux drivers don't do iDCT or motion compensation.

            Former GATOS core team member.
            • None will take an mpeg stream and decode it entirely.

              ATI's Xilleon chipsets will do dual HD MPEG2 decoding, overlay, and display. They do have graphics overlay capabilities as well, but are primarlily designed for Set top boxes.

              For the "official" word, search ATI's website for "Xilleon".

        • just wondering why to "stay away from Windows and MPlayer" ?

          Mplayer plays dvds quite well (but then again I also know more about it) for me. I just wanted to know if there was a large reason (mplayer is not the most friendly to some sound hardware)

          • MPlayer was my first choice on those machines, and it just couldn't handle the task.

            MPlayer is a really nice research platform for accelration techniques, but a media player it isn't. What killed it for me was its lack of support for DVD menus. Even if it did support them, it just didn't perform well, and I couldn't use it.

            I've worked with the MPlayer source on several occasions, around version 0.50. It was an abomination - a monolithic design that couldn't be modified in any meaningful way without a rewr
    • by Chordonblue ( 585047 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @10:21PM (#6820687) Journal
      Obviously you've never used VIA processors before. They are notorious for their slow FPU's. In fact, before their latest top-of-the line model - the Nehemiah, their FPU's of previous models always ran at HALF CLOCK. Ouchy.

      But, even at full speed a similarly clocked Celeron kicks it's ass in every which way. That said, high performance is not the stated purpose of the Centaur/Via CPU. Its low watts, coupled with the decoder make for an excellent all-around box. I've built around 7 or 8 of these myself and they are excellent for what they are designed for (think: mom and dad or net terminals, not Half Life 2).

      I have a few of these floating around the school here now as basic net access / workstation terminals and they are hugely popular - especially in light of what they replaced (AMD 300's). There's nothing like tearing apart some ancient computer and putting one of these boards in it. 90% of the time, it's simply cavernous in there (so much space!)

      Last week I put one in an Aptiva and realized that if I was an enterprising person (read: man with a Dremel) I could have fit TWO of them in there as a dual workstation! :O

      So to sum up, they're small as hell (you have to see it to believe it), simple, fun, easy to configure, but don't plan of using them at the next Fragfest 2003 (c)

      • You mean throwing a Nvidia geforce fx5ti5000 at it won't help ? or an Ati all-in-heat-production 9950 pro wont?

        Sorry, I do know someone who is contemplating building a very cheap (relatively cool and non-power hungry) cluster out of them. Which will (sadly) beat the SGI "High performance" system (either easily parallelizable, or single-threaded, non-super memory bandwidth (though they wouldn't do that bad on that either, considering the age of the SGI)) for a very small fraction of the price. (and it shoul

        • Oh that would be terrific except that the EPIA boards don't yet support AGP. They come with ONE PCI slot. I suppose you could stick a PCI version of a GeForce 4mx on there, but... Why? :)

          I imagine it won't be long before VIA 'fixes' this, but I'm not sure they're in a hurry to. The purpose of the EPIA mini-itx board isn't performance gaming. And to be honest, I'd hate to see them lose focus on what is working so well for them.

          I suspect that no sooner than they add an AGP port we'll have Tom's, Sharkey's,
  • by Performer Guy ( 69820 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @10:22PM (#6820692)
    This is not reverse engineering, he dissassembled the code and pretty much copied/ported the result to C. I don't think this meets any cleanroom standards and the code is dangerously contaminated. To use this work you would have to get someone else to reimplement the driver without looking at this contaminated code base. That means they need to be passed a description of the hardware interface inferred from observations of how this driver works, and the code produced by dissassebling the driver needs to be tossed in the garbage can.

    Who taught anyone that dissassembling someone's proprietary code and doing a line for line port then publishing the result was in any way legitimate?
    • by Adam J. Richter ( 17693 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @11:03PM (#6820870)
      Who taught anyone that dissassembling someone's proprietary code and doing a line for line port then publishing the result was in any way legitimate?

      "In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work". United States Code, Title 17, section 102(b). [cornell.edu]

      • If I take your book written in English and publish it translated in French I've violated your copyright. All this guy did was duplicate line for line the code, that is copying. The copyright holder holds those rights. He's not duplicating a procedure, he's duplicating the *copyright code*, line for line using a dissasembler and translating the duplication to C. I'm not saying you can't duplicate the functionality, but you can't copy code like this.
        • All this guy did was duplicate line for line the code, that is copying.

          The author of the article did much more analysis than that, but even that were all he did, I think that would still be legal given the purposes for which he did it. Not all copying is copyright infringement.

          "[...] the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such as by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching

          • The only analysis the guy did was figuring out what their proprietary source did instruction for instruction in a higher level language. Sure it took analysis, but the most complex analysis he had there was figuring out how the various branching calls mapped to higher level flow control calls. He didn't create anything he copied their work verbatim. He took their machine binary and mapped it directly to a higher level language. Have you heard of cleanroom reverse engineering? They do that for a reason.

            If t
    • How was he supposed to have figured this out? Standing on his head and chanting mystical phrases while smoke billowed into the characters of the source code?

      This is absolutely how reverse engineering works. And, in fact, this is almost exactly how I've been working the reverse engineering of Ten-Tec RX-320D receiver BIOS. I disassembled the source into ADSP-2101 assembly and have been meticulously putting together a pseudo-C version which is a lot easier to read and gives a much better representation o [sourceforge.net]
      • This is supposed to be done by someone who hasn't looked at the proprietary code. He has only done part of the job, and a dodgy part at that. He needs to document the hardware interface then pass his documentation to someone who can legitimately write THEIR OWN CODE, to implement the desired functionality and call the hardware.

        As it stands it's straight copying, although since the license that ships with the code allows it it turns out he CAN do this, see other replies for details.
    • by swillden ( 191260 ) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Thursday August 28, 2003 @11:47PM (#6821102) Journal

      Who taught anyone that dissassembling someone's proprietary code and doing a line for line port then publishing the result was in any way legitimate?

      The better question is: Who decided that the "clean room" approach is actually necessary? Answer: a bunch of ultra-paranoid lawyers at Compaq who were about to piss off Big Blue (deep pockets, lots of lawyers and extremely protective of IP) in a big way and wanted to make absolutely completely sure that there was no way their project could be called a copy.

      I don't think it's at all clear that copyright law makes so-called "clean room" reverse engineering necessary. AFAIK, a court has never stated that source code reconstructed from a binary is considered a copy, or even a derivative work. Copyright law does not prevent you from reading something, learning from it, and creating something else based on what you learned. It may be that a court would rule this a derivative work, rather than an work of independent authorship, but it's highly questionable since courts have already said that only the expressive, not the functional, part of code is copyrightable.

      It's very clear that clean room reverse engineering is sufficient. It's far from clear that clean room reverse engineering is necessary.

      • Excellent point, you are right (although I don't know about any lack of precedent or what impact more recent laws would have on this). Anyone trying this better hope I'm not on the jury of course, because IMHO this has much more to do with copying than looking and learning.
    • by orv ( 398342 ) on Friday August 29, 2003 @02:12AM (#6821630) Homepage
      The copyright statement in the driver from via states:-

      * Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a
      * copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"),
      * to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation
      * the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sub license,
      * and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the
      * Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:
      *
      * The above copyright notice and this permission notice (including the
      * next paragraph) shall be included in all copies or substantial portions
      * of the Software.


      It's just that they didn't actually release the code for the driver. So the port doesn't need to be a proper clean room reverse engineer.
      • Ahh... critically important information I wasn't aware of. OK, he's safe to use the code. If I could I'd mod you up myself. This obviously makes a huge difference to his ability to release the driver.
  • ...still doesn't value OSS development. They have analyzed it, and determined that it doesn't work for them.

    Just like we like to champion choice in operating system and GUI, software companies have the right to choose their business and development models.

    It is up to the OSS crowd to adapt to that, and what better way than innovation? It has already started with OGG.

  • If you have to reverse-engineer a driver, what the fuck good is it?
  • "..Typically, only requests from companies developing product for sale will be approved.."

    Has the article submitter actually asked them instead of going by a press release and venting on /. ?
  • Code porting MPEG driver from assembly to C.
  • Dxr3 (Score:4, Interesting)

    by daserver ( 524964 ) on Thursday August 28, 2003 @11:50PM (#6821114) Homepage
    Lets not forget the hardware mpeg2 decoder - dxr3. A lot of people have worked on this and it has resulted in a very decent driver. It has had absolutely zero help from sigma. There is even hacks to make it display rgb directly to your tv, bypassing the crappy composite and svideo.
  • reverse "engineering"?
    is that what it's called now?

    back in the day, i used to just double click on the mpeg clip on my computer, and all you could see were "reverse cowgirls". whatever these "engineers" (or pr0nstars as we used to call them) are doing is just great. My "intellectual property" is now as WIDE-OPEN as open source for you!

    ackk kids.... when do they ever use the proper symmentics.. (old man like me cant spell...)
  • PVR era (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sonamchauhan ( 587356 ) <sonamc@PARISgmail.com minus city> on Friday August 29, 2003 @08:05AM (#6822703) Journal
    A Mini-ITX Linux system that used the functionality provided by this driver, had a 3-second BIOS bootup time using Linuxbios [linuxbios.org], plus a PCI TV tuner card with hardware MPEG-2 encoding, would be a pretty impressive media center.

  • Look at it this way (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ajs318 ( 655362 ) <sd_resp2@earthsh ... .co.uk minus bsd> on Friday August 29, 2003 @09:50AM (#6823612)
    He owns the hardware; therefore, he has a right to make use of it. The details required to write a driver form a part of the operating instructions for the hardware, and anyone claiming them to be "proprietary secrets" should be laughed out of court with a dusty bootprint on their arse.

    Is it a proprietary secret that "Esc", "K", followed by a two-byte binary number presented units-first between 1 and 480, followed by that many bytes, is the code used to select bit-image mode on an Epson-compatible Dot Matrix Printer? Of course not! why, Back In The Days, when if you wanted software you pretty much had to write your own, the printer would have been useless without such information. So the manufacturers used to provide it in the handbooks. Kit that didn't come with adequate documentation, didn't get bought.

    Today, with pre-written software in abundance, manufacturers are becoming sloppy and not documenting fully how to interact with their products. For the casual user, this isn't a big problem, because they were never going to do anything with this information anyway, so why waste paper or plastic telling them it? But if there is even one user who wishes to do more than what it says on the box, then it suddenly becomes a very big deal indeed.

    My analogy is that he used "reasonable force" to obtain information to which he was entitled, after polite request had failed. The law is quite clear that in certain situations, reasonable force may be used. This situation is more "gentle" and relies less on quick decisions than, say, physically moving a person who is trying to resist. {He could have obtained said information by holding a knife to someone's throat at the manufacturer; this would likely be seen as more than reasonable force.}

    We should be writing to our elected representatives now to make sure it becomes mandatory for manufacturers to supply full hardware specifications, gratis or at cost, to anybody who wants them. Concealing details is a dirty, lowdown, scumbag, coward's trick that will cost companies sales. Please don't betray your cowardice by bleating about "competitors gaining an advantage" - you will have access to your competitors' documents, too, and if your competitors manage to do a better job than you, then you failed it! I have no sympathy, either, for those who whine that people might find it easier to break the law if they were given certain information. It is already more than easy enough to break the law. A few extra ways aren't going to make any difference here or there. You shouldn't rely on doing crap design and keeping things secret; it's another form of corner-cutting. Do it properly or not at all.

    If the guy is ever taken to court, his best chance is to push for a trial by jury an hope that, out of twelve people, he can convince two of them that, although he does not deny what he did, it is the law that is wrong this time and they can acquit him. If this happens often enough the law will be changed.

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. -- Albert Einstein

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