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Programming Sun Microsystems IT Technology

Java IDE Technical Preview 67

A not-so-Anonymous Coward writes: "During a Sun developer 'chalk talk' Thursday, Joe Keller, Sun vice president of Java Web services, said the company will release a preview of the tool, known as Project Rave, that the Santa Clara, Calif., company introduced at its JavaOne conference in June. Sun has touted Project Rave as a rapid application development tool akin to Microsoft Corp.'s Visual Basic. In fact, Sun had its developers study Visual Basic to a great extent while building the tool, Sun sources said. Sounds like .NET is going to get a run for it's money."
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Java IDE Technical Preview

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  • Re:java is dead (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Pengo ( 28814 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @06:09PM (#7420479) Journal

    C# is splendid on the client, if your deploying to windows. Much better than Java in my opinion. But on the server side, C# has a long ways to go before I would ever trust it for a massively scalable project. Frankly java does the job, and does it VERY well on the server side.

    C# has very very limmited options on the server side. In Java I have massive selection of JVM's, --> SERVER PLATFORMS -- , servlet containers, EJB containers, IDE's.

    As a matter of fact, I can't think of a single tier 1 player other than borland jumping in line to give balmer a rim-job and provide technology at a infrastructure level for C# .NET.

    Frankly, I have been burnt by microsoft enough times, that I won't do anything with .NET unless it's a client deployed application that I understand will be limited to a 9x/win2k/XP environment. Java would of been my next choice if we had to suport macs or linux, but we don't.

    Also, to say that database performance is higher with C# is frankly bullshit. I would venture to say that eventually things will improve with C#/CLR based applications, but performance is not a factor between the two. Usually good design implimentation is what determines how well an application runs, not the environment that it runs in.

    BMP/CMP ejb implimentations where hugely misused in early days of EJB. Now that the technology and the people that use it have matured, you can build a VERY scalable and robust solution without any problem.

    to say that C# is perfect, even VS .NET is perfect is frankly a joke too. I have had more than once had to do cludgey work-arounds because the code that the IDE generates when moving a widget causes a problem. Many things are improving in the newer version of VS.NET , but again... lets see.

    Frankly people that say that Java is loosing ground in the enterprise have no idea what they are talking about and are quite out of touch with whats really happening.

    How many european / asian firms would you believe are jumping up-and-down to impliment a lockin-microsoft solution at this point in the game? not many that I know of. Many US organizations are b ecoming more scheptical as well. Possibly because they have found they are tired of being ass-rammed by security/quality issues that come as a concequence of those decisions.

    Microsoft made a mistake not launching a Java alternative early on, but like the internet, they are late to the game and will build on other peoples ideas/mistakes.. but I am scheptical that C# is going to knock java into insignificane until there ar eas many options for C# as there are for Java. That means microsoft letting go of the control, and frankly.. if you believe that will happen, I have land to sell you in the middle of the Great Salt Lake.

  • Re:At last...? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TioHoltzman ( 709089 ) on Friday November 07, 2003 @09:30PM (#7421967) Homepage

    You, my friend, have obviously never had the "pleasure" of working with Forte. I had the utterly miserable misfortune to spend a year on an all forte project at a large US Tire company from the very begining to the intial deployment of the software to the users.

    And it sucked beyound belief.

    The "IDE" that forte provided was a piece of shit (and that's putting it mildly). It was quirky to develop in, ungodly slow, resource intensive, brain dead peice of heaping crap.

    Our CS intern that we got on the project quickly renamed the the language to Forte Objected Oriented Langauge (FOOL).

    Deploying to 5, that's right folks, 5 machines was an utter nightmare, and took 3 of us to keep it going.

    On the other hand you could partition the application to run on different machines. Useful of course, when the application actually ran.

    From a language standpoint, the "plumbing" was indeed hidden from you. It was absurdly easy to talk to objects cross process or cross machines.

    The problem was everything else was an amateurish piece of shit that rarely worked the way Forte claimed it did. And we had a consultant working with us to iron out all the problems (at $250 an hour, thank you very much).

    And when we finally got it to run, the app ran SO slowly, that he had to hand massage the generated C++ (TOOL/FOOL doesn't itself get compiled - it generated C++ which was then compiled) and add a whole bunch of custom stuff, of course none of this was explained or documented, it Just Worked (well sort of - by the time I left the project, the users HATED the app so much because it was clunky and slow, that they never really used it - it was faster to calculate the retirement calcs by hand than to deal with the app).

    So, yeah, Forte was a real good platform to base stuff off of.

  • Re:java is dead (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 07, 2003 @11:47PM (#7422475)
    LongHorn my ass. If you know anything about enterprise applications and building systems that have to support a significant number of concurrent users, you would have first hand experience seeing SQL Server slow to a crawl. What's worse is for transactional stuff, if it is not processed asynchronously one by one, it pretty much dies. I'm not trolling and this isn't stuff based on what some one else told me. It's from first hand experience benchmarking .NET applications I am actively developing. In fact the scalability factor sucks big time. It's great for small and medium sized companies with less than 200 employees. I know for a fact companies like Fidelity are investing further in J2EE and so are many of the top 20 financial companies on Wall Street. Even chris brumme, who works on .NET CLR admits to the weaknesses of .NET. Java isn't perfect by a long shot, but it is far more mature and scales 10x better than .NET. If you don't believe me, go ask why companies like Merril, Fidelity, Schwab and BOA why they use J2EE on their heavy transaction systems. Also, ask them why they kicked out latent zero, Charles river and other windows Order management systems. Simply put, it blows chunks and scales like crap. These are verifiable facts, not some rumor.

...there can be no public or private virtue unless the foundation of action is the practice of truth. - George Jacob Holyoake