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Sun Microsystems Java Programming

Sun Negotiating With Wal-Mart Over Java Desktop 468

Posted by simoniker from the sun-mart-wal-java dept.
An anonymous reader writes "According to an EWeek article, Sun is challenging Microsoft on a new front: the consumer market. Believing its Java Desktop System is "a more effective home and retail solution," the company is negotiating with major retailers Wal-Mart and Office Depot to include the Java desktop on consumer PCs and laptops."
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Sun Negotiating With Wal-Mart Over Java Desktop More

Sun Negotiating With Wal-Mart Over Java Desktop

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  • A discussion of the "Java Desktop"... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tcopeland ( 32225 ) * <tom AT thomasleecopeland DOT com> on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:43PM (#7662153) Homepage
    ...is in John Mitchell's blog [java.net].

    As he says, 'Did you notice how little actual Java there is in the "Java Desktop System"?'

    • Re:A discussion of the "Java Desktop"... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Frymaster ( 171343 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:45PM (#7662180) Homepage Journal
      actually, it includes a very important java package:

      com.marketing

      • That's what I find odd (Score:5, Interesting)

        by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:01PM (#7662357) Homepage
        OK, so they're naming something not-very-java-ish "Java Desktop" to capitalize on the Java name.

        But look at the COMMENTS in this thread, even so far! Look at all the posts going "eww, JAVA? for a DESKTOP?". Java is NOT a name with positive connotations. Everyone "knows" that Java is slow, clunky, and jittery. Of course, the only time they've ever directly used a Java app was AWT applets running on Netscape 4 ages and ages ago, but that's still the perception I think most people have.

        Java, from an end-user perspective, was blitzed out before it or the VMs were even remotely ready, was oversold in the embedded-in-web-browsers area (where it ran like crap) and undersold as a facilitator of cross-platform application development (where it ran almost acceptably), was pushed in everyone's face in the form of poorly designed pre-Swing applets, and then quietly retreated completely from the end-user space. This is the last memory most people have of Java (even if it's the woman in wal-mart going "oh, Java? I think I remember that from that email forward from my grandson? that's the thing that makes animations that blink a lot, isn't it?") and outside of the community of programmers and people who know what a "servlet" is, it probably currently has negative mindshare.

        Is Sun actually thinking "Hmm, 'Java Desktop System', that's a name people can trust"?

        Or is the idea that they now trying to rehabilitate Java's brandname by attatching it to a product that (one can only hope) is actually worthwhile and usable?

        • Re:That's what I find odd (Score:5, Insightful)

          by dasmegabyte ( 267018 ) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:19PM (#7662523) Homepage Journal
          Well, Java desktops make more sense now that Microsoft is trying to do basically the same thing with their .NET initiative. That is, when the world's largest desktop operating system developer starts treating the machine as a virtual machine, it certainly makes a player who's been doing it for years look more competent.

          Sun's marketing will no doubt play off this. "Hey, remember when we said 'the network is the computer?' Remember when we wrote a system for running programs that had security built into the very core of the system? Now Microsoft's trying to do the self same things we've already done. We can deliver what Longhorn might, and we can give it to you today for less money with good support." Sounds good, no? Certainly better than either the Microsoft Line or the FUD against strictly Open Source software.

          You're talking about end users...end users are VERY willing to pick up something that used to be kind of crappy if the interface has sufficiently improved. Remember how terrible IE was at first? Flash? Remember how crummy Windows Media Explorer was? Remember how hard Linux USED to be to install? People keep giving these apps another chance. People will no doubt give Java a second glance as well. And this could be EXACTLY what Linux needs to succeed on the desktop: a major player releasing a major OS with a team of talented minds enhancing GPL code.

        • Re:That's what I find odd (Score:4, Insightful)

          by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:25PM (#7662570)
          Perhaps Sun should put some weight behind SWT if they want to regain trust in Java on the desktop. JFC is a nice GUI API, but unfortunately it turns out slug like apps which are inconsistent on every platform they run on.


          I'm sure purists will claim that JFC is better for X number of reasons, but a glance at Eclipse (which Sun have also shunned) demonstrates it can produce compelling, fast and native looking apps - something which JFC has singularly failed to do.

          • Re:That's what I find odd (Score:4, Informative)

            by impi ( 524064 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @07:08PM (#7663499)
            I use Eclipse, I won't go back to NetBeans. But the reason is the refactoring tools and very nice plugins, not Swing. SWT doesn't come close to being a general GUI API. It was made for Eclipse, and has enough features for many but not all apps.
            My app requires inner frame windows, anti-aliasing and compositing, custom window frames - things I can't do with SWT. With Swing this stuff is trivial. Then again, I think Swing has a nice easy API though some people think otherwise.

        • Re:That's what I find odd (Score:5, Insightful)

          by dfung ( 68701 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:38PM (#7662698)
          I think what's happening here is that Sun as a brandname hasn't had much good news lately. There was a time when Sun = innovation; there was a time when RISC as an architecture looked forward-thinking and the next big wave, and I think Sun rode that pretty well. Then Sun = enterprise; even before the dot-com boom, the solution to your horsepower and uptime needs was Sun servers. Now, both these past branding successes are pretty tarnished or pointless.

          Java has been their last big brand name. There was a time when java was "cool", but now it's really about being forward facing and not-Microsoft.

          Sun as a company is doing very, very poorly. The proprietary processor plan is getting nuked by both Intel and AMD. Solaris is getting killed by Linux, largely because of Sun's reticence to let it roam free from the proprietary hardware.

          The hardware story may possibly be beyond being saved. Sun will try the x86 route, but who knows whether there's any real opportunity there. If that happens, it's a software game, and I think they're already trying to hitch everything they've got up to Java, whether it's really associated or not.

          Sun has done this before (sure, it's ECMAScript *now*, but you still call it Javascript, don't you?), so it shouldn't be that suprising. And even if it's stupidly named, that should affect whether the product is good or not or where it goes in the future.

        • >Is Sun actually thinking "Hmm, 'Java Desktop System', that's a name people can trust"?

          I think they're thinking, McNealy will have a cow if we call it Linux Desktop System.

          Steven

        • Re:That's what I find odd (Score:5, Insightful)

          by ctrl-alt-elite ( 679492 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @07:14PM (#7663569)
          Actually, the Java language itself is undergoing a bit of a rebirth at Universities. It's become the language of choice instead of C/C++ for intro- to intermediate-level CS courses. Sure, the name Java may have horrible connotations in light of the late-90's applet blitz, but when the current crop of undergraduates comes of age in a few years, Java will be seen in a much better light.

          This kind of long-term market insinuation may be what Sun is banking on, especially since more and more non-CS majors are taking programming classes. As a short-term plan, of course, the decision seems to make absolutely no sense with the stranglehold that M-dollar-sign has on the consumer market and the current image of the Java language, but there just may be a longer-term goal behind Sun's actions.

    • Unflattering article with little research. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ericspinder ( 146776 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:53PM (#7662271) Journal
      "I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."
      This is a quote from "An IT manager, who asked not to be named". I am a Java Developer who has never had any problems with Java on my desktop or servers (Windows or Sun). Clearly, the guy is confusing the so called "Java desktop" with Java JVM. Also it should be noted that the "Java Desktop" is a Linux distribution (As if most readers didn't know that already) with Open Office (I'm sorry Star Office) and a JVM installed by default. The author never even mentions any of this, because I believe he wrote the entire thing out of the press release, and a quote from a "friend", but we have never seen this before have we!

    • Re:A discussion of the "Java Desktop"... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:56PM (#7662292) Homepage Journal
      They're not selling the Java platform, they're selling the Java brand. Which is pathetic, I agree. Except you can make a lot of money exploiting an accepted brand, without being very creative or original, as the Batman movies attest. It's just that somebody at Sun thinks that Java is a lot more valuable as a brand then it really is. And they're overlooking the confusion they cause by separating the technology brand from the actual technology.

      Microsoft did the same thing with .NET, though they soon realized they were overdoing it and pulled back. Sun has done it from the beginning (hence Javascript) and has never had a clue that they're doing anything wrong.

      I'll say it again: Java's worst enemy is not Microsoft, it's Sun!

      • "Javascript" was originally LiveScript and the name was changed by Netscape as a marketing ploy [c2.com], not Sun.
        • Yes, I know who invented Javascript. But Netscape couldn't have made the change without Sun's permission. So somebody at Sun had to decide that using "Java" to describe a language that had only incidental connection to the Java platform was a good idea.
      • I'll say it again: Java's worst enemy is not Microsoft, it's Sun!

        Correction:

        I'll say it again: Sun's worst enemy is not Microsoft, it's Java!

        The best product Sun has made was SPARC. The only profitable source of revenue they had was also SPARC. Java is an ugly language (may it's an elegant one comparing to C, C++ or Perl, but not to Lisp, OCAML, Erlang or ML. Or even to Python). And it's a blackhole sucking all money from Sun.

        • That maybe a true statement, but it's also an ultimately irrelevant one.

          The "clean" or "best" or "pure" solution is rarely the one that's the most popular, or most used, etc. Take your same language example -- more software is written in C, C++, and Java than in Lisp or OCAML, at least outside of academia.

          I dunno that hardware as the profit stream (with the software bundled) is the way to go, in the long term -- it has certainly worked for Sun in the past, though. Ask yourself who has the better profit ma
      • You are missing the point if you think this is pathetic.

        Sun is making an entry into the low end PC OS market with an OS alternative to M$.

        Java Desktop capitalizes on the goodwill Sun has built up in the Java name. Why shouldn't they or why can't they capitalize on it? They invest time money and effort in developing it and making standards and keeping other people from polluting it.

        Yes, right now for the entry level and firt year marketting, it is a Java Brand mainly rather then Java Platform. But if s

    • Re:A discussion of the "Java Desktop"... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by lcsjk ( 143581 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:34PM (#7662662)
      At $100 per year, it will be more expensive than Windows after one year. Does my machine quit working at the end of the one year lease? Try selling that to a company as customer savvy as Walmart!

      The general population cannot even copy and paste! (Yes, I teach community classes.) Having them try to interface with SUN to reset a lease is out of the question, and Walmart cannot handle that kind of customer support. You don't think SUN is going to support Walmart computers do you?

  • How many games or entertainment packages are supported under the JDS ?

    • mainly a linux distro, but the problem remains (Score:4, Insightful)

      by *weasel ( 174362 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:21PM (#7662540)
      As people have always said, it's all about the applications. Better OS's than MS have come and gone - but windows holds the desktop because they have the desktop applications.

      and argue as you may about performance or server marketshare or stability -- linux does not have the consumer application maturity.

      the home consumer wants to create birthday cards, print pictures from their digicams, play games off-the-shelf, do their taxes, browse, keep a schedule, and email.

      Sure, linux does all those things. but as the stifling size of the MS consumer software market shows -- having the application available does not mean you have the interface the user likes. often the home user will buy a program that lets him do something he can already do. but because the interface is so backwards, he doesn't even know it.

      many home consumers will routinely use a different graphics program to scan than they do to make an invitation or an envelope or print digital pictures. current linux users are absolutely content with the single complex program. you can see there, the purpose gap as well as a culture gap between linux and the average home user.

      the installation procedures, the dependencies, recompiles, configs -- it all echoes the hardcore requirements, and stands in contrast to the home user's needs.

      linux on the home desktop can start to beat microsoft when the installation becomes easier, the interfaces become better, and the silly applications that slashdotters don't buy start to appear.

      so unless Sun is going to really work on the consumer usability end of linux - it isn't going to work.

      • Re:mainly a linux distro, but the problem remains (Score:4, Insightful)

        by FatherOfONe ( 515801 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:47PM (#7662802)
        Actually have you looked at SuSe 9.0? I was shocked how far the Linux desktop has come. It detected everyting I have and actually has the software installed on it that I normally have to download and configure for RedHat. Like Java and flash.

        I think that you might be missing the mark here a bit. I could see selling this to someone like my mom who doesn't load crap on her machine. She just wants to get email and open pictures of her kids and grandkids. This thing would be fine. To be honest I would probably buy it for her, just so I don't have to deal with the constant spy-crap on Windows. Not to mention the viruses and other issues that seem to plague Windows.

        Will there be some people who buy it and then try and buy "Deer Hunter" and then be pissed it didn't run? Yes. However, Sun and Walmart will understand this and probably market this as a "Net Appliance" device. I don't see people buyying an Xbox and saying "Why can't I run Office on this thing?" It will be two different markets.

  • Woohoo (Score:4, Funny)

    by pheared ( 446683 ) <[ten.deraehp] [ta] [nivek]> on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:45PM (#7662183) Homepage
    Now every old, dirty, walking-around-in-WalMart-wearing-their-underwear- at-3AM-because-its-still-open, couple can enjoy Java.

    The masses thank you.

    (P.S.: Yes, I've seen that, and it is frightening(ly hilarious if you are one of my friends.))
  • Being that there is so little java in java desktop anyway (as mentioned above), maybe they should rename it to six-pack-of-bud desktop, or Moonshine-computing environment to appeal to the walmart market.

    Java is so upper-class yuppy: Apple users would eat that up!
    disclaimer: posted from a powerbook at a down-town coffee shop

  • How long till Sun realises... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ikekrull ( 59661 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:45PM (#7662186) Homepage
    That they are going to make more money off Linux than they ever possibly could off Solaris, do a complete about face, and proclaim 'Linux is the best choice for the server as well as the desktop, and Solaris is `legacy` technology.'

    I give it a till June next year.

    • Re:How long till Sun realises... (Score:5, Informative)

      by Kenja ( 541830 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:00PM (#7662340)
      "How long till Sun realises that they are going to make more money off Linux than they ever possibly could off Solaris, do a complete about face, and proclaim 'Linux is the best choice for the server as well as the desktop, and Solaris is `legacy` technology.'"

      As soon as Linux scales well to 128+ CPUs with full binary compatibility (no recompile) and has hot swap CPU/MEMROY/Motherboard support. People who think that Solaris must suck becuase it lacks a cool interface are missing the point.

  • At least... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sirReal.83. ( 671912 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:45PM (#7662188) Homepage
    They're not going to use Lindows. SJD seems to actually emphasize quality over gimmick.

    not that "Java Desktop" is gimmick-free... just call it GNOME, damnit!

  • It'll probably flop . . . (Score:5, Insightful)

    by shystershep ( 643874 ) * <bdshepherd@gmai[ ]om ['l.c' in gap]> on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:47PM (#7662197) Homepage Journal
    . . . but the more that people get used to seeing non-MS operating systems (even Java and Lindows), the better.

  • It's all about support (Score:5, Insightful)

    by lindsayt ( 210755 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:47PM (#7662201)
    I think this is a great idea - a company with a deep and developed support network finally pushing an alternative desktop at the consumer market. As it is also cheaper than a windows license, it is likely to be at least somewhat popular.

    Now of course the problem is that Sun's massive support network is currently aimed entirely at business, so it will take them some retooling to make it consumer-friendly. Let's hope they succeed - there hasn't been a big-company supported alternative to Windows on low-end computers since IBM's OS/2.

    • Yeah.. especially (Score:5, Interesting)

      by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:06PM (#7662405)
      since they are hardly even business friendly.

      The problem, I find, with Sun salespersons, is that they are generally of the opinion that Sun is the supreme god of everything, and that everything not sun is garbage.

      I have called sun several times in the past, with a clear, precise list of what I need to buy from them. I explain to them what I want, that I am familiar with all of their services and equipment, and that I really only need what I am asking for. They still manage to waste DAYS worth of time trying to convince me to replace other stuff with sun gear... despite the fact that the sun gear can't come close to doing what I want. Example: Fileserver

      I was about to purcahse a 50 gig NetApp NAS box... the sun guy tried to sell me on some sun fileserver.

      The pros/cons

      NetApp - Hardware raid on FC drives. Filesystem that takes snapshots. Netapp gave me performance stats for NFS ops/sec, etc.

      Sun: Software raid on scsi drives. Smaller array. No snapshots. Could not give me any specs on throughput, etc.

      Now.. come on. I can appreciate trying to push your company's products.. that's their job.. but you lose a lot of credibility when you try to convince me to use GARBAGE in place of what I want, just because it's not yours.

      Example #2: I was about to purchase about $300,000 in sun gear for an E-commerce type setup... I called several vendors. I had my hardware list DECIDED, based on current offerings. Took the resellers almost 3 weeks to get back to me. They gave me some okay quotes... each, ,of course, asked me again for all hte detials i had alreayd painstakingly sent them. Then.. I get a call from a guy actually at SUN who was supposedly in charge of ".com stuff". He asked if I had talked to anyone else. I said no. He said he knew I had, because all the resellers report to him. Then he a) quashed a deal with one reseller I was going to buy from, telling them the pricing they were giving me would end up getting them in shit with sun.
      b) Offerred to set up my whole system for me and guarantee it, on the condition that I let them purchase ALL SUN hardware, including swtiches, etc, and could not mess with it.
      c) Wanted me to say OKAY to this without showing me a quote. His point was that if he showed me the quote, I could just use that as my system specs and build it myself.

      Now.. tha'ts kind of messed up, but he sort of has a point. So I tell him "Look, there is no way in hell I'm committing to anything without full disclosure from you, sorry, what are you thinking". He sends me his specs.

      They are MY specs, minus a few items, but it COSTS more.

      So what the hell, he's accusing me of potentially stealing his plans when he already SAW mine, and they were just like his?

      I started as a perfect customer. We were ready to wire the money immediately if they had just simply GIVEN us a quote for what we asked for. Instead, they fucked around for a month, and ended up losing the sale totally.

      I diligently mailed him, his superious, and all the resellers to point out how this guy had totally fucked up for sun.

      I also went to a SUN meeting one time.. they wanted to demonstrate the SunRAY stuff (which is cool) and also some windows file sharing stuff. They pointed out how it was way better than samba because it was based on real NT code that they had a license to. Now.. this was all fine and great. Except.. it also contained the NT bugs (for compatability). Okay.. I can understand that. I start asking about how I can integrate this with unix stuff.. are the ACLs in text files? Like, why would I actually want this over an NT server? His answer? Nope, you can't really do anything like that.. it's JUST like using windows, isnt' that great? Except it's on a SUN, so it won't crash. You mean the application won't crash? Oh yes, it will.. he means the computer won't crash.

      Sun has made some cool stuff in the past.. and I used to really respect them.. but after trying to deal with them on multiple occassions, I feel they really need to get their heads out of their asses and start dealing with reality.

  • What IT manager is this (Score:5, Informative)

    by bigjnsa500 ( 575392 ) <bigjnsa500@yPERIODahoo.com minus punct> on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:47PM (#7662203) Homepage Journal
    "An IT manager, who asked not to be named, said he could not understand why a user would trade one proprietary desktop for another. "I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."

    Hey, MORON! Java Desktop is NOT powered by Java, but rather Gnome2 and Star Office. Jeez, where do they find these IT managers.

  • A good idea in principle, but in practice? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by carl67lp ( 465321 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:47PM (#7662205) Journal
    The idea of Wal Mart selling PCs with an OS to compete with Windows appeals to me. But it can, conceivably, open up a whole host of other problems.

    Case in point: My retired aunt and uncle bought a computer based primarily on price. Presuming that the Java-OS computers are cheap, then many people who have never bought a computer will be like my aunt and uncle and buy this computer as their first PC.

    What happens when they visit their local techie goods retailer and look for card games, or photo editors, or even hardware like printers, scanners, or digital cameras? Suddenly, things don't work like they're supposed to, and auntie and uncle get upset and call in their nephew to fix things.

    The point is this: The hardware is irrelevant. For most people, hardware is nothing more than nails, tacks, and screws. Software is what matters. Unless Wal Mart has Java-OS-specific software right next to the PCs, and can sufficiently educate consumers that Eudora won't install on their computer, then we'll have problems.

    (Mind, this diatribe is based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the Java OS. But all thoughts apply regardless.)
    • Mod this one up.

      Consumers are not conserned with the OS or the Hardware.. They just want to do stuff with their PC.

      I hope Walmart is prepared for the MASS software or system returns when people contiue to puchase Windows software and think it will run on this system.

    • Re:A good idea in principle, but in practice? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Frymaster ( 171343 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:57PM (#7662310) Homepage Journal
      bingo. steve jobs actually said it back in the 80's "consumers only care about the applications". the oeprating system is just lifesupport for the dohickeys mom-n-pop want to run on top of it...

      and mom-n-pop will be pissed when they find out that their favourite bridge program and recipie categorizer doesn't run on their new machine.

      this sums it up. when you ask people what operating system they're running and they say "i don't know" they mean "windows me".

    • I think its likely Walmart has the resources to finance this, and to finance specific development to compete with the MS compatable products, particually in terms of drivers. Walmart is a big company and a hefty push. Bear in mind that while it may not be 100% open, a lot of it is going to be craftily portable to the more professional Linux distros used by the likes of the /. crowd.

    • Re:A good idea in principle, but in practice? (Score:4, Informative)

      by ericspinder ( 146776 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @06:54PM (#7663389) Journal
      The idea of Wal Mart selling PCs with an OS to compete with Windows appeals to mei>
      It is not an idea, they already do it, and when they describe one they tell you what is up. Most (read as all) computers are already "bundled" with all the software needed for browsing the web. Sure they can't play AOE, but does Granny need anything more than email and a browser. It's not like they hide it either. From a computer description in the walmart website
      The Linux-based operating system in these PCs is not compatible with any Microsoft Windows programs, however, it is great for basic operations such as email, Web browsing and instant messaging and can be easily upgraded for compatibility with Microsoft Office documents that have .doc, xls. or .ppt suffixes.

      Just in case you were wondering the compatibility with Office would be Open Office (or maybe they point to Star Office).

  • Wal-Mart selling JDE (Score:5, Funny)

    by jesse.k ( 102314 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:47PM (#7662208) Homepage
    Does this mean Sun will help port Deer Hunter to the JDE?
    • Not likely, since JDE was bought by Peoplesoft, then Oracle tried to blow the whole thing in a hostle takeover bid. Besides, whey would you want to play games in a crappy financial package. Oh, not that JDE...
  • Let's see...Wal Mart hires people at substandard wage, utilizes sweatshop labor and sucks the life out of communities wherever their stores land... On the other hand they support open source... Do I shop there or not? They still leave a pretty icky taste in my mouth...

  • Hooray! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ryanr ( 30917 ) * <ryan@thievco.com> on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:48PM (#7662211) Homepage Journal
    Another hardware platform to hack after it fails miserably in the market and I can buy them for $40.

  • Wal-Mart & PCs (Score:5, Interesting)

    by chill ( 34294 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:48PM (#7662217) Journal
    Wal-Mart sells PCs with Lindows on them from their website. They're supposed to be a decent seller, so they probably aren't adverse to the idea.

    I remember dealing with Home Shopping Network a couple of years ago. Their biggest seller was computers, but it was also their biggest return. People just couldn't figure them out properly.

    For most people, PCs are just too complicated. They try to please all of the people all of the time, and fail miserably.

    Sun might be on to something. Time to check up on their stock.

  • wtf.. (Score:2, Flamebait)

    by JavaLord ( 680960 )
    From the article...

    "I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system," he said. "If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft."

    I've never, ever seen Java "crash the system". Not on a mac, or on a PC. Where did they find this crackhead? I'm sure I'm going to get modded down for this, but the linux zealots need to stop with this "IT HAS TO BE IN C AND OPEN SOURCE TO BE GOOD". Any

  • Java Desktop (Score:3, Funny)

    by paul248 ( 536459 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:52PM (#7662254) Homepage
    So, when can we expect to see Wal-Mart selling this new line of furniture with integrated coffee machines?
  • I though Sun's "Java" desktop was just SuSE linux with a few bells and whistles. Why do they keep referring to it "java based" operating system?

    • Re:huh? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by deanj ( 519759 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:01PM (#7662363)
      Because the writer misunderstood, didn't realize it, and wrote the article anyway.

      This happens all the time... the only reason we recognize it here is because it's a tech article.

      Just think.... this happens in other fields too, and since we're not in that field, we just don't realize what they're saying is wrong.

      yikes.

  • Sun and JDS (Score:2, Insightful)

    by bsdparasite ( 569618 )
    Sun cannot market to the masses. They are good at marketing to companies, and their sales guys probably play good Golf, but I have often found their marketing Cryptic for the average person. Starting from "The network is the computer". Java doesn't really have a big brand name when it comes to computers, and they should drop it and may be call it Sun Desktop instead. They are trying to build a new brand name as opposed to using the old one.

    Wal-Mart will be ready to sell this, but only on their website (li

  • power of marketing (Score:4, Informative)

    by BigGerman ( 541312 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @04:56PM (#7662298)
    Did you notice how many posts here assumed that Java platform has anything to do with this Java Desktop System???
    Even Java OS was mentioned!!!
    People, Sun JDS is a Gnome based Linux distro with some Java apps on it. It is not written in / does not utilize Java platform. See OSnews review of JDS or Slashdot review of the review.

  • Exactly why do they think it'll work (Score:3, Interesting)

    by GillBates0 ( 664202 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:01PM (#7662350) Homepage Journal
    I'm at a loss to figure out why exactly it'll work.

    If they expect to steal users over from Microsoft Windows, they're going to have to work REALLY hard at improving the UI that was /. reviewed last week (the crappy /. search won't return the right link).

    If, however, they're targetting current advanced users of Linux/etc, what makes them think these users will pay buy their desktop instead of putting one together themselves and downloading linux.

    I would think most average users would rather go in for a dual boot system rather than linux/unix alone, because of the amount of family/educational software/games etc available for Windows.

  • Less is more... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Zo0ok ( 209803 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:04PM (#7662386) Homepage
    If it means I can go out and buy a cheap computer that can handle email, WWW, word processing and printing, then I think it is good. For lots of people that would be a very good deal. If I bought such a computer - for how long time would it serve my fathers needs without maintenance?

    10 years?

    This f***ing business needs to grow up and deliver mature technology.

    I have no idea if Suns Java Desktop is the right way to go - but if simplicity and end-user-needs are in mind I think it is a step in the right direction.

    Also, IF it would be successful we would see yet another OS (as in commercial product) running on ordinary PC hardware that does not feature all the DRM-shit that MS says they'll put in Longhorn. For hacking c-code any stable and open system will do.

  • Some Links and Questions (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Schlemphfer ( 556732 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:04PM (#7662392) Homepage
    Well, even though it's called Java Desktop System, it really seems more like a (hopefully) highly polished front end of a pre-installed Linux distribution. Here's a FAQ from Sun. [sun.com] And here's a link to the project homepage. [sun.com]

    This proposed Walmart deal strikes me as exactly what Red Hat would be trying to do, if they were remaining in the market as a consumer distribution. The article doesn't even attempt to define the Java Desktop System (hence the above links), so there's really nothing in the way of comments as to how good the thing is.

    Also, does the "Java" in the name of this product really mean that the desktop is in fact written in Java? I can't imagine that's the case, or why it would be desirable. But one analyst quoted in the article seems to take it as a given that this thing is written in Java:

    I personally keep Java off my computer because it crashes the system...If Sun had the interests of the customer in mind, then the Sun desktop would be written in C and donated to Linux. Sun is no better than Microsoft.

    From what I can see, if this deal comes to pass, Walmart may soon be selling Linux based systems with a highly polished front end, equipped with a suite of office/internet software that does everything an entry-level buyer could want. Seems to me that this would be a big step up from people buying XP boxes. It would increase the market share of Linux, and result in way more Linux software being developed.

    So I have two questions. If anyone here has used the Java Desktop System, what do you think? And does anyone see any real downside to Linux if this deal is made?

  • A rose by any other name... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Chordonblue ( 585047 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:06PM (#7662403) Journal
    You know this 'Java Desktop' thing has little or nothing to do with Java. But the funny thing was the guy who was interviewed who said something like, 'Well I don't know why we'd use it. It uses Java, and Java crashes computers..." Hmmm.. Good reporting there. Why not ask a chimneysweep or a horsemaster next?

  • Java in the Java Desktop (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:14PM (#7662480)
    People don't realize the reason why it's called the Java Desktop, but it has to do with using Linux as simply a set of extremely well written device drivers, and recognizing that the underlying OS is a commodity. *Everyone* now recognizes that value is moving "up the stack" of the OS, and of course an OS is important, at what point does it cease to become incredibly relevant? A BIOS is important, after all, but the shift from the BIOS to the OS is significant enough that the focus has moved to the OS.

    Well, the focus has now started to move away from the OS (as we now think about it, after all the BIOS is a type of OS and pretty much anything could be considered an OS) and moving higher in the stack. Call it marketing if you want, but it's accurate to indicate that this is happening. Some higher level of abstraction from the underlying hardware OS will become so significant that you will cease to notice the OS really. As it is, people think of the Internet as their computer, and Java is similarly a strategy to move the focus of computing more to the network.

    Now, the JDS is not pure GNOME, not pure Linux, not pure Java, not pure anything, so why not call it where its focus is? I know my personal interest in it would be for a high level of support and integration with Java. OpenOffice, Mozilla, and other apps use Java technology in one way or another.

    What I expect as a result of this move by Sun is to provide better interaction between Java and the underlying hardware OS, such as some of the projects to enable control of USB devices directly within Java. Also, Sun might provide something like what IBM is doing with SWT but using the existing Swing API but with more native support in the JVM (instead of simply a theme).

    Sun is absolutely on the right track. Java is a brilliant piece of technology that is really starting to come into its own. People generally assume that when a technology has been around for a long time and hasn't really "taken off" (which some may say about Java on the *desktop*) that it means it won't, and others will realize that it's more a matter of a vision finally coming into fruition. What is Microsoft .NET but a complete and utter endorsement of Sun's vision? Why not go straight to the source of leadership? Sun is earning people's trust at the same time Microsoft is destroying it, signifying a changing of the guard in terms of overall leadership in the industry. This does not mean that Sun is just going to become another Microsoft, but more that we have entered a new era and the tension comes from trying to hold on to an old paradigm for too long. And, if anything, the Internet weeds out closed technologies. The fact that Java is one of the most commonly referenced "Internet technologies" speaks for itself.
    • People don't realize the reason why it's called the Java Desktop, but it has to do with using Linux as simply a set of extremely well written device drivers, and recognizing that the underlying OS is a commodity.

      Astroturfing, are we? JDS is just a rethemed SUSE with Star Office, nothing that revolutionary.

      Sun keeps telling us that OS is a commodity and not all that interesting. Meanwhile, they are clining to Solaris like their life depended on it.

      It's true that OS (not just Kernel) is, and should be, a

  • Feeding the (Wal-Mart) Whale (Score:5, Insightful)

    by borkus ( 179118 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:23PM (#7662563) Homepage
    I wonder how Sun will handle production of these desktops if they take off. Given the demand that Wal-Mart can generate, it has often reshaped the product lines of it suppliers - frequently in ways that are not profitable to that supplier [fastcompany.com]. People have noted Sun's declining sales of server hardware. However, I'm not sure that pouring resources into commodity desktops will make Sun more profitable.

  • Nice friggin brand name. (Score:5, Funny)

    by popo ( 107611 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:26PM (#7662576) Homepage

    And I thought "OS/2" was the worst brand name for an operating system.

    "Java-Desktop"?

    I'll install that along with my "VB Document- Editor" and "C++ Grid-Based- Number-Calculator" software.

    Anyone want to play a game of "Run-Around-and-Shoot-Each-Other-in-a-Sci-Fi-Envir onment"?

  • Why buy Java desktop? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Billly Gates ( 198444 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:35PM (#7662677) Journal
    Linux distributions already carry gnom2,kde and other gui's. Especially computers with lindows.

    The only use java desktop could possible have, is if you own a sun workstation and your stuck with CDE and compiling gnome by source is too much of a pain.

    Unless there is some other features in Sun's version that I am not aware of, but other then that its a waste of money for something they already have.

  • Java (not the desktop) (Score:3, Interesting)

    by roman_mir ( 125474 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:41PM (#7662722) Homepage Journal
    I would like to see GNU/Linux to become a more powerful platform and by a more powerful platform I mean a platform that provides the user with a pleasant experience. Now, to provide a pleasant experience a platform must give the user a choice - a choice of applications that exist for the platform is a step in the right direction. However, GNU/Linux is not such a platform yet. If it were, it would have been embraced by the masses already and it is not. There are a few things that GNU/Linux system is lacking and one of the more important lacking components is a convenient tool that allows a novice create his/her own software for the platform, software that easily manipulates data imported from multiple sources and allows to create graphical interfaces to that data. In the Microsoft this functionality is provided by such a ubiquitous tool as Visual Basic. In the Free Software world there are many tools that are extremely powerful but none of them have the same kind of momentum that Visual Basic delivers on Microsoft platform.

    To answer the question- "What can be the VB for Free Software?" we need to look at the kind of problems that will have to be solved by this tool. The problems solved by VB are of many kinds, but for the general public VB provides the bridge that closes the gap between a user and a multitude of small problems that the user wants to solve. Of-course it is possible to just create a VB IDE for FS platforms but I believe there is a more interesting solution to this problem and it is Java. Just like VB, Java runs in a virtual machine, so the user will never really have direct access to any hardware resources, but an abstract layer of JVM can provide a nice buffer between the user and the hardware and at the same time Java will always behave in the same way on multiple other platforms, including Windows. Java has thousands of convenience libraries, there is enough Free Software written for Java that can be integrated into an IDE. However there is a big problem with the language itself - it is not Free.

    Sun allows anyone to use Java for free but nobody can modify the language itself except for Sun. In order for Java to become for Free Software and Gnu/Linux what VB became for Microsoft, Java has to be Freed and put out under the GPL. There is also probably a good business sense in it for the Sun Microsystems as well - their language suddenly becomes the language of choice for millions and thousands will work on improving the language, the virtual machine, the compiler etc. In this case Sun will stay in a position that Linus finds himself in - they become the gate-keepers for the vanilla Java tree, but Java will branch and will become much more spread than it is right now. Sun can capitalize on that by providing more Java based solutions and services.

    Now it is likely that Sun management will not agree to the change of their Java's status, however, if there was an immediately profitable reason for them to do this, they just may turn around and start thinking about it. A reason that is profitable could be a large sum of cash available to them upon releasing Java under the GPL. Where could this money come from? These money could be collected by the FS and OS supporters, the developers and the users who would like to see more momentum in the GNU/Linux movement towards a successful (wide spread) desktop solution. I suppose no one will seriously object to have one more powerful tool in their Free Software tool-bag. Java can be this tool and it can be just the thing needed to tip the scales over towards quick appearance of a useful and a popular GNU/Linux desktop.
    • I am currently using Slackware 9.1. The java dev is as good as vb, and one hell of alot less expensive than MS orafice VB ware! I just ./setup Open Office and it has all the java bells and whistles. To my way of thinking the latest Slackware is the best distro hands down! Just because my users have to type a blind password to login doesn't slow me down. Having to type startx is not a real hardship either.
      Of course being able to have multiple logins going is great as well. No I am seriously thinking of teach
    • I would dare say that Python is *extraordinarily* easy to get up and running, more so than Java. You can do extremely powerful things and very easy things with Python. And if you want clean cross-platform development environment, it fits well, even with GUI if you accept wxPython. I've been blown away at the ease of things when I did PyGTK, and when I wanted something that looked less out of place in Windows and that would work on OSX, I picked up wxPython and was simply amazed at how cleanly it slipped

  • And... so this is better than Windows? (Score:5, Informative)

    by popo ( 107611 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:55PM (#7662867) Homepage

    A yearly subscription fee???

    Taken from the sun.com:



    Pricing



    Q.
    How much does Java Desktop System sell for?

    A.

    There are two available pricing options for Java Desktop System:

    $100 / desktop / year. An OEM volume tier pricing schedule is also available.
    $50 / employee / year for Sun Java Enterprise System customers.
    A special promotion is also planned that reduces by 50% the first year price of either of the above two options. This promotion is in effect until June 2, 2004. See:
    How to Buy.


    Q.

    Why would I purchase a per desktop license at $100 when the per employee license is available at only $50?

    A.

    The per employee pricing is available only if you purchase the software for all employees of your company. If only some employees will use the Java Desktop System, it may be more economical to purchase per desktop licenses.

  • Wrong market, wrong product, wrong time. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by i_r_sensitive ( 697893 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @05:57PM (#7662878)
    Not a snowball's chance in hell I say.

    Sun has not addressed any of the major issues facing Linux and the home user. Say what you like about M$, they do make a hell of a desktop for Joe Six-pack. Consider the first time Joe Six-pack installs some software and it doesn't show up in his menu... That will be the end of JDS for the average home user, the only good point being that as long as Sun sells it as JDS, the Linux community might at some later date reclaim that user, when the needed work has been done.

    And that is only one trivial example of a real world ordniary user issue. Literally thousands exist, each of which has the potential to be a show-stopper for some portion of the home user base.

    Linux has a long way to go before it is ready for prime time on the home front. Microsoft has queered that pitch permanently. As long as Linux does not provide, internal to the desktop environment itself, the kind of handholding help system that M$ users have at their disposal, why would Joe Six-pack switch?

    All of "our" arguments about the superiority of security, etc. fall on deaf ears if folk can't use it. The home user is the guy who uses his CD drive as a cupholder people. Does anyone think Linux is ready to deal with that level of incompetence? But that is the market Sun is going after? Does anyone else see the problem there?

    Now everyone restrain yourself before posting your favorite Linux rhetoric in reply. Your elegantly crafted arguments, and the sublime supremacy of your arguments (and mine) are all predicated on the necessity that the audience has access to the relveant information, but more importantly, can understand that information, and comprehend the implications of it. Now apply that to Joe Six-pack.

    I understand the missionary urge that makes most of us want to push oour OS to the limit, but to be successful at converting the "heathens" requires more than a strong wish. Consider the Roman Catholic Church and Christmas. Christmas is a compromise, a case where accepted religious doctrine was modified in order to be able to attract, and retain converts among the pagans. That it was extremely successful is obvious, that it fundamentally changed core aspects of Catholocism should also be obvious. I have serious concerns about the "Church of Linus" being able to accomplish the same thing.

    How many of you would accept fundamental changes to Linux in order to get it widespread use in private homes?

    More importantly, how many of you would accept fundamental changes you were diametrically opposed to in oder to get Linux on more home desktops?

    I strongly suspect that such a fork is coming. While I won't be so naive as to suggest that the Linuxwe all know and love is going to go away, but I will suggest it will not be the Linux that could succeed in the home market.

    As Catholocsim has to make some room for patently pagan beliefs in order to grow and spread, Linux may well have to make some room for heretical beliefs for the same reasons.

  • Don't underestimate WalMart's power (Score:5, Informative)

    by Infonaut ( 96956 ) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Monday December 08, 2003 @06:05PM (#7662960) Homepage Journal
    Most people outside the world of consumer retail don't understand just how much clout WalMart wields. Their buyers make corporate bigwigs quiver with fear, and when they decide to do something, they execute quickly and aggressively.

    This article [fortune.com] does a good job of conveying WalMart's reach. Microsoft rules the desktop, but WalMart rules retail.

  • Sun and the Long Term (Score:4, Informative)

    by rueger ( 210566 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @06:54PM (#7663394) Homepage
    I'd suggest that Sun has been building something pretty serious, one careful step at a time.

    In order to challenge Microsoft they need to see some other OS on PCs. On a practical level it doesn't matter what OS, as long as it's not Windows.

    But as noted, it's applications that drive PC purchases, not the OS. So what has Sun done?

    Purchased StarOffice, spun off OpenOffice, and this week added support for the latter. For 95% of people the Sun office suites will handle anything that they want to do, as well as saving in MS compatible formats. It may not be perfect, but it's certainly Good enough. Better than MS Works in any event.

    Add Mozilla and maybe Evolution for e-mail and you've covered the bulk of most people's activities.

    So Sun can offer a non-Windows OS, a non-Windows software package. Bundle the new PC with a printer and Monitor, maybe a scanner, and you have a complete package that will suit most folks. If it does these things, and maybe connects with their digital camera, then they don't care about OSs and Application names.

    The only thing left is marketing. Sell a similar box to say a fraction of the population of China and your per unit costs drop fast. Fast enough that you can also sell to WalMart, make a profit, and allow them to undercut other retailers.

    Sure, there will be some problems supporting software and other hardware, but It still looks to me like Sun has a good chance of starting to eat into Microsoft's market share.

    Barry

  • Why it could really work. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by supabeast! ( 84658 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @07:27PM (#7663741)
    Wal-Mart is the biggest retailer in the world. Wal-Mart alone could make low-cost, vendor-supported Linux computers available to almost everyone living in the continental United States. This still seems sort of hopeless-after all, consumers will still want Windows to run, well, almost all of the popular commercial software out there. After all, there isn't much commercial software, or hardware, support for Linux, right?

    But that will change pretty fast once the largest retailer in the world is making Linux available to its customers. It would be a hell of a lot easier to make money from Linux software by slapping a "Wal-Mart PC Compatible" lable on the box and getting ten copies in every Wal-Mart in the USA. If Wal-Mart can succeed at selling PCs, it could even demand that software and hardware vendors support Linux to get a product onto Wal-Mart's shelves. Colleges that go all Microsoft in exchange for software discounts might have to stop requiring that students bring Windows PCs to school and use MS-Office formats for electronic submissions if half of their students realized how much money they could save by buying a Wal-Mart PC with the Java Desktop instead of a Windows PC and MS-Office.

    Wal-Mart could be the catalyst for an Open-Source renaissance of sorts, bringing a shell prompts and compilers to the masses. If this report is true, and Sun can get Linux PCs on the shelves at Wal-Mart, a lot of people in Redmond are going to be really, REALLY scared.

  • Walmart will force the compatability issue (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Maskirovka ( 255712 ) on Monday December 08, 2003 @07:30PM (#7663766)
    Several people in this forum are saying that the lack of mainstream software and peripheral driver support will cripple Sun's Java Desktop. The artical mentions that Walmart is going to be putting a lot of effort into selling SJD boxen. Furthermore, Walmart as a retailer has an unrivaled ability to force suppliers to make products play by it's rules. For example, it forces record labels to censor certain lyrics, or else it won't sell their wares. Now is it any stretch of the imagination for them to tell peripheral and software manufactures to port their drivers and software to SJD? All they have to do is put out a memo that says something like "By 2005 all computer software and peripherals must be SJD certified to be carried by Walmart Stores and Sam's Club. Now bend over so that we can thank you." And by 2005 every company that sells peripherals and software through walmart will make damned sure their products are SJD certified.

    At this point (mid to late 2004) the Linux distros, Mac OS, and *BSD will be 100% compatable with SJD software, and Adobe, Quark, Mooneshine Automation Sys, etc., will port their software to SJD/Linux, assuming it catches on. The status quo may go back to what it is now, depending on how the hardware/M$ DRM situation works out, but it looks like there is hope for 'the free world.'

    Or,
    one month from now Microsoft will start selling a WinXP lite edition for $15/cpu to OEMs and basically buy back their dominance.

    Either way I'm sticking with Apple.

  • I think what they're trying to do here is set up a system with which the easiest way to get new applications is to get new Java applications through JWS.

    If you haven't used JWS, go and install the plugin and try it out. A friend of mine wrote a class diagram / UML tool called The Virtual Bar Napkin [cube42.com]. If you have JWS installed, you can hit the link on his webpage and the application is running in a few seconds.

    He didn't have to write an installer, or deal with a page saying "for this version, click here, for that version, click there".

    And to clarify, It is not an applet. It's an application, running in its own window, etc. Furthermore, it is actually installed on your system, and you can access it later through the regular menu system (on windows) without having to be connected to the net. Upgrading to new versions is just as trivial.

    JWS is a great example of the promise of Java. Write your client application, distribute it seamlessly, update it in near real time, and avoid all the nonsense with servlets and sessions and HTML + javascript web interface nightmare.

    So long as this gets us closer to that, I'm interested.

    -Zipwow

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