How To Hire Great Open Source Developers? 246
An anonymous reader writes "This is the first article I've ever read specifically about hiring open source developers, and how to judge their ability not just to code but to work with others. It's reprinted over at ITMJ [part of OSDN, as this site is] from a book by Martin Fink, the General Manager for HP's Linux Systems Division. Brings up a lot of good points, including how you need to make sure your open source people are developing things (on company time) that do the company some good, not just scratching their own itches. Fun quote: 'Discover what pseudonyms your candidate uses online. Look at the archives at SlashDot and other online locales. Does your candidate hide behind secret pseudonyms to trash other individuals? Is there passion without condemnation?'"
Easy..... (Score:2, Funny)
Search Slashdot for their posting behavior? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Search Slashdot for their posting behavior? (Score:5, Funny)
Idiot.
Re:Search Slashdot for their posting behavior? (Score:2, Funny)
It's OK, I simply told them my nick is CleverNickName [slashdot.org]
we're due to start filming next week :-)
Re:Search Slashdot for their posting behavior? (Score:4, Funny)
Obviously, my coworkers think I'm weird...
But they like me anyway.
Hmm, I dunno. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:5, Insightful)
I shouldn't have to say this, but "ideally" (in planet Nice, with the pink fluffy rabbits) a project manager would take note about wether you hide behind a nickname to flame and troll, wether you were quick to anger, etc. (the qualities that make you less fit for a job involving human relationships) and not your opinions.
The downside: some OSS / FS grand masters would probably _never_ be hired based on what they say on /. . Of course, this shouldn't be the only criterion, but still...
Of course, this isn't planet Nice, and your opinions will become known sooner or later. One is what one is, after all. Holding strong opinions or beliefs was never meant to be easy. But if you don't want to be judged by what you say, (hint hint) don't say it on the net.
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know if the comparison is relevant. It is a bit like trying to predict how you will behave in a business meeting judging from a tape of the football game you attended with your buddies last weekend. Not much can be inferred, if you ask me.
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm certain if you looked over my posts, you might see an overall cynical trend. You'd probably get, just from my nick alone that I'm fed up with things. I don't come here looking for solutions to what ails me. I come here to commiserat
Free software development is often informal (Score:2)
So an informal forum like
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
Sounds like Popeye finally grew up.
Oh dear - after a comment like that, I'll never find work again.
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:5, Insightful)
A project manager who would disqualify a potential candidate based on the candidate's personal opinions is not the kind of project manager worth working for.
Just because someone is [insert favorite offensive/questionable attribute] that doesn't mean thet the person can't be a great developer.
Then again, sometimes, personal opinion matters.
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2, Insightful)
You probably don't want to hire a blatant racist. *Period*
And may future employers see my stance on that!
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
But then again WTFDIK, I didn't RTFA....
-B
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
Has anyone ever had someone inquire what their online pseudonyms were for potential work?
If not asked then anyone trying to "discover" this doesn't deserve to have anyone working for them.
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
The forum for anonymous venting that places like
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:3, Insightful)
A relatively objecti
Re:Hmm, I dunno. (Score:2)
job offers for all! (Score:4, Funny)
And then I remember I don't run a business
What not to do (Score:5, Funny)
Boss: What's your Slashdot screen name?
Employee: Anonymous Coward.
Re:What not to do (Score:5, Funny)
Boss: What's your Slashdot screen name?
Employee: The correct Slashdot term is "nickname", you ignorant AOLer!
Re:What not to do (Score:2, Funny)
You're right about that! After I registered this nick I found out that the TSA was recruiting air marshals with a starting salary of something like $80K/year. Looking back on the situation I should have applied anyway, if for nothing but the challenge of convincing humorless bureacrats to let me board large jetliners while carrying a gummint-issued pistol despite my nick being a takeoff on the name of a 9/11 pilot. Shee-it, I live for irony anyway. They wouldn't even have to pay me!
Re:What not to do (Score:2)
Monitors? We used to use hardcopy terminals -- or those 4-line LCD Radio Shack Model 100 thingies if we wanted it portable.
And we called them nicknames (CoSy/BIX, circa 1985).
Handles were a CB radio thing (and a "cell phone" was what one made their "you're allowed one phone call" from
Re:What not to do (Score:2, Insightful)
Ah well. Here's what you do, guy: actually invite the person in for a sit-down interview. Yeah, I know, it's crazy, but there is no better way to gauge someone's social skills than to watch them interact with others up-close and personal. If, when talking to you, their eyes never leave their feet, or they mumble (especially about 'taplers'), or they didn't even bother to comb/brush/wash their hair, or it's only 8:30 in the AM and the
Good article, but one thing irritates me (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember - we need to eat as well. While open source gives us satisfaction, closed source gives us our daily bread.
Re:Good article, but one thing irritates me (Score:4, Funny)
PS: potential employers, check out the low uid. :-)
Re:Good article, but one thing irritates me (Score:5, Funny)
You must be new here...
Re:Good article, but one thing irritates me (Score:3, Funny)
Anything can be a religion. Just because you have a life doesn't mean everyone does.
Not true (Score:2)
It is a regiously held belief.
Making closed source software is wrong. Even if you do OSS work on the side.
(on the extreme side) Selling software as a commercial product is morally wrong.
Myself, I think as you do, but don't think that we represent the whole of the OSS community with this stance.
*When I say OSS, I'm actually lumping together two groups: 1. Open source people who ar
Re:Good article, but one thing irritates me (Score:2)
Open Source projects as a career stepping-stone. (Score:5, Informative)
His current employers saw his work and hired him on the spot...
Re:Open Source projects as a career stepping-stone (Score:2, Funny)
His current employers saw his work and hired him on the spot...
Uh, am I the only one that found this statement funny?
[Reminds me of the old joke, boss commenting to another boss, "Yes, Bob's retired. The only problem is he forgot to tell us about it."]
Doomed!! (Score:4, Funny)
Oh bugger that's me screwed then, he knows I always post anonymously on Slashdot!!!
Re:Doomed!! (Score:2, Insightful)
OSS should be looked as if it was a portfolio not a personality definition, since many developers start doing software because they need it for themselves(like a driver or a new phone book, whatever) so basically is mostly real ppl with real intrests, so an interview is what really should happen, not weasely speculation or minding caffeinated beverage taste.
Animal Psychology (Score:5, Funny)
haha! they make them sounds like confused pets or something.
"Don't be too quick to introduce your Engineer to it's new environment, Engineers are not well known for adapting quickly to change!"
Re:Animal Psychology (Score:2)
...not just scratching their own itches. (Score:2, Funny)
And after I've paid so much money for DVDs of women primarily scratching ...,uh, now that I think about it, that's in a slightly different context. Never mind.
Personal Time (Score:5, Insightful)
Damn right law might limit restrictions. My time is mine. Not a company's, mine. That's the very definition of personal time. I am not employee #3877643 away from the office, I am a human being who does work for a company during certain prescribed times and under certain prescribed circumstances.
They might well have legitimate rights over what I can contribute, but certainly not when if 'when' is part of my personal time.
Cheers,
Ian
Intellectual Property (was Personal Time) (Score:2, Insightful)
I've decided that employment agreements that define intellectual property rights and disclosure really don't amount to much. Every employment agreement that I've read always has language about disclosing "work related" inventions and the company's right to those inventions.
Developers that I've worked with tend to construe those paragraphs very broadly and sometimes get themselves really worked up over the possibality of their employer stealing their million dollar invention. The thing about that is that i
Re:Personal Time (Score:2, Funny)
Right on! Away from the office you are Slashdot user #323026, and post comments like #8461887. Or... hang on... are you posting from work? Now I'm confused.
Re:Personal Time (Score:2, Funny)
Want to be more confused? I'm posting from home. Via an SSH connection from work... :-)
Cheers,
Ian
Re:Personal Time (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe in your private hell, or in the dreams of the HR department, but certainly not in reality - no. That's the whole point about local laws limiting that right.
For example, after stating that I was taking three weeks off following the birth of my son, I started getting phone calls about simple development questions that could easily have waited or been worked out by others. I politely reminded the people involved a couple of times, and put the phone down on them the next. No further calls.
For example, shortly before midnight 31st Dec 1999 I was called asking if I could just log on to a machine in Singapore to watch a log when the millenium ticked over. Answer - no, absolutely not.
For example, in the middle of moving house I was told to drop what I was doing and come into the company. Answer? No - of course not. If I don't complete the move I have nowhere to sleep tonight...
People should stop behaving in such a sheep-like fashion. Actually posting that a company 'owns' you and believing it? Good god man - for once the cliche applies, go out and get a life. And a backbone to go with that life - you'll need it at times when dealing with people who are trying to own you...
Cheers, Ian
Re:Personal Time (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm glad to see that at least someone has the guts to stand up for their personal time. I once worked in an applications support team where, as our boss put it, we were always "on call 24/7/365"
I ditched that job six months ago. It's fine if you're going to be "on call" at scheduled, planned times. I will not submit to an employer who thinks that they own me. Unfortunately, there were a lot of "sheeple" at the job who just took it. (I guess they're the ones making life hard for the rest of us!?)
I
Re:Personal Time (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Personal Time (Score:3, Insightful)
But that's exactly the point - it _wasn't_ their job. Their job was to fix networks before 5. If the General required people who worked after 5, then he should have arranged for overtime to be paid for work outside salaried hours.
If you want
Re:Personal Time (Score:2)
To this, I would like to add that if everybody simply followed this advice, it would be impossible for employers to make such insane demands on employees, because firing them would no longer be an option: anybody they subsequently hired to replace you would also tell the employer to fuck
I've got another fun quote... (Score:2, Interesting)
Damn, and I thought IT was cool... maybe I just have a great hobby and should stay away from IT...
Google search for any candidate (Score:5, Interesting)
It really should have helped me (Score:5, Interesting)
My boss copied them into the source tree, but claims that he never made the connection between using my code and then later hiring me.
Re:It really should have helped me (Score:4, Insightful)
Lame points? (Score:5, Interesting)
We have also met other IT people who just don't get that they are being paid to do something for the company rather then what they want to do.
In these respects proprietary programers are no different then open source programmers.
In case the author of the article hasn't heard it is an employer's market right now for programmers.
There is no reason for an employer to even go to the fraction of the trouble the article suggests.
Steve
Re:Lame points? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not all programming positions, nor programmers, are alike. Likewise, it is only an employer's market for certain types of positions(as it is with any field), and an employee's market for others. Some programmers can still make demands, cuz they're just so f'ing good/they have a very unique skillset.
Uh, of course there is (Score:5, Interesting)
Getting programmers with both good coding and people skills are what this article is about. And given how widely different the skills of programmers are, it is hard to see how any trouble in the hiring process to get the best is too much.
You seem to miss the point of the article. The point was not to "bribe" programmers to work for the company by offering them to work on free software. The idea was that if the company wanted to contribute to some free software projects fpr strategic reasons, like HP does with various Linux related technologies, how to get the people who can ensure that the contributions are accepted. These people you find in the free software communities.
Slashdot (Score:3, Funny)
Only when I get mod points, duh. ;-)
ego-less programming (Score:2, Interesting)
Beer, pizza, gnu porn (Score:2)
Re:Beer, pizza, gnu porn (Score:2)
Personal experience (Score:5, Interesting)
Just don't let the tin foil obstruct your line of vision. It doesn't really matter what does your applicant blog or do in his spare time as long as he is a fine fellow and a nice specialist.
Re:Personal experience (Score:2)
How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:4, Informative)
Always reassure them that you understand that it's hard to write code without an editor, and you will forgive them if their paper gets really messy. Also you understand that it's hard to write bug-free code without a compiler, and you will take that into account.
Some signs of a good programmer: good programmers have a habit of writing their { and then skipping down to the bottom of the page and writing their }s right away, then filling in the blank later.
They also tend to have some kind of a variable naming convention, primitive though it may be...
Good programmers tend to use really short variable names for loop indices. If they name their loop index CurrentPagePositionLoopCounter it is sure sign that they have not written a lot of code in their life. Occasionally, you will see a C programmer write something like if (0==strlen(x)), putting the constant on the left hand side of the == . This is a really good sign. It means that they were stung once too many times by confusing = and == and have forced themselves to learn a new habit to avoid that trap.
Good programmers plan before they write code, especially when there are pointers involved. For example, if you ask them to reverse a linked list, good candidates will always make a little drawing on the side and draw all the pointers and where they go. They have to. It is humanly impossible to write code to reverse a linked list without drawing little boxes with arrows between them. Bad programmers will start writing code right away.
The Guerrilla Guide to Interviewing
By Joel Spolsky
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog00000
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:4, Informative)
Any good compiler released in the last twenty years has the ability to catch these kind of errors.
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2)
if (iIntVar = 0) { do.Something; }
and
if (iIntVar == 0) { do.Something; }
are both valid and both do different things (one initializes the variable to zero and if that succeeds it does something, the other checks if it is zero and if so does something.) I have done both, and spooging it is a fat finger away. Particularly when I am tired and undercaffeinated.
No, any good compiler released in the last 20 years doesn't have the ability to catch logica
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:3, Insightful)
if (var = CONSTANT) will trigger a warning or error
the standard way to express this is:
if ((var = CONSTANT)) however some compilers don't implement this correctly
personally, I prefer:
if ((var = CONSTANT) != 0)
which makes the assignment and test explicit.
The reason I said twenty years is because I distinctly remember Turbo C/C++ 1.0 did this by default. Visual C++ can do this kind of checking too. The warning generated is C4706, but it is off by default. The f
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2)
if((iIntVar=0)){do something}
the compiler should return a warning. IO agree putting the constant first is a good way to avoid them, but I find it looks so annoying I prefer to just compile and check the warnings.
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2)
2 words: Recursive function
It's stupidly simple and takes 2 pointers as
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:3)
Thats why people avoid recursive functions in favor of iterative ones in the real world. In addition, the iterative has MUCH less overhead. Function calls are slow. Loops turn into a compare followed by a jump, pretty fast.
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, but 1) if you're hiring technical you should talk technical and, more importantly, 2) if they aren't capable of communicating their orthogonal solution to you then they're going to be no good working in a team anyway.
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2, Insightful)
Frankly, syntax is the least of my worries. Languages can be learned. Coding conventions can be followed. Even Coco the monkey knows how to mash the keys!
How clean is his psuedocode? How well does the coder think? Can the programmer think in a step-by-step fashion? Do they know how to solve problems? I'd hire a logician or a physicist over a pure syntax monkey just because I have faith that they can solve problems.
Frankly, you can't win with interviewers. T
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2)
Re:How To Hire Delopers? Mandatory read. (Score:2)
You made all the points I was about to.
The '{}' thing just slows a fast programmer/typist down. I did that back in my first year of programming (actually with begin/end blocks -- Algol and Pascal) but a good programmer can keep track of that using indenting.
As for the bit about "begin stung often enough" by the '=' vs '==' confusion -- in 20-some years of C
Also agreed about the reversing a list problem. I
I love this one (Score:4, Insightful)
> better than his/her own implementations?
Good way to sort out the "programming god in their own minds" geeks.
Canadian Privacy Act (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know much about the act's details, but one thing it states is that a business can't require information which isn't required in order to complete a transaction.
Not exactly the same thing as this, but maybe there is something in the act which does more directly refer to this type of situation.
Cool! (Score:2)
what's that? how can you PROVE i'm not I_M_God2U ?
Single maintainer projects? (Score:2)
Also, the "count the hops to the manager" does not make sense for many projects aside from Linux. Usually there is at most a single hop to someone with CVS write permission. If the person is a regular contributor, he will most likely have CVS write
There's a reason why the owl goes masked (Score:5, Insightful)
'Discover what pseudonyms your candidate uses online....'
BS, I say. There are many reasons why people take nom de plumes and pseudonyms, but all come back to the fact that "-and I just wanted a certain level of anonymity". Not fullblown anonymity, just enough to make your online personal dealings disjoint from any sort of RL responsibilities you have.
There's a reason why you're not supposed to talk about religion, politics, and all that stuff on first dates or job interviews: because it's inappropriate (unless the job is, obviously, at a church, for a political party, etc.). Employees are expected to leave their personal lives at the door when at the job. But employers should feel peachy about betraying that same confidence?
When writing some free COM app or TPS report coversheet, what does an employee's view on gay marriage, Palestine, or the RIAA have to do with anything? And even if the employer was doing something as inoccuous as suggested in the article and just "seeing if they are passionate without compromise"... who here doesn't think they could find something they'd hold against you?
Candidates are looking for jobs, not friends. Neither should employers.
My experience (Score:5, Interesting)
He also made a few posts about the technology we were chiefly hiring him to work with. The comments were rather negative (and against the broader view of the group he would be working in). I want people who can be passionate about what they do. No, I'm not just looking for "yes people" to maintain the status quo, but there is a certain base. Who is going to work harder and enjoy themselves more - someone who enjoys the technology or someone who doesn't?
While his
No need to be employed (Score:3, Funny)
And how to become a landlord? Get an excellent karma in real world first.
Re:No need to be employed (Score:2)
So that's why .... (Score:2)
Research me! (Score:4, Interesting)
So many of you are padding your resumes (yes, you... knock it off!) that it makes it hard for me to get into the "interview" stack. I don't believe in padding the resume (and besides, if I padded it it would become downright unbelievable... yes, I actually do know those ten languages fairly well, even if I am just a recent college grad, am I supposed to claim 20? As it is there are already some skills I'm deliberately not adding because they're not really good enough to justify it), and I need some way to let you know that I really have the skills I mention.
For instance, I claim the ability to write coherently. Anybody can write coherently for the length of one resume, all that takes is the help of a friend. Get to my website and you'll see that I really can write even large, book-length essays reasonably well. You can find my code and download it.
If anyone's not going to hire me because of my opinions, which are mostly "ethics are good" and a general technolibertarian slant, then I don't want to work for them. (In my case, this is unlikely to be an issue, since my strongest opinions are "YRO"-type issues and all that really eliminates from consideration are surveillance technologies I couldn't work on anyhow. YMMV due to differing opinions.)
How else am I going to rise above all your padded resumes?
(I've heard that in my current job I was the third of three candidates after the final screening. Our resumes were virtually identical, but I was fresh out of college with a Masters degree (actually I had significant work experience, easily three year's worth of a full-time job, but it's hard to get over the "fresh out of college" stigma), while the other two had many years of industry experience. Fortunately, when they were interviewed, they bombed, because the resumes were padded, and mine wasn't. Padded resumes may get you interviews, but you should almost hope they don't get you a job; you'll be in over your head in no time if you're hired on the basis of one.)
(And a note: I can write, but that doesn't mean I give my best stuff to Slashdot or spend forever proof-reading my posts; why bother? I'm sure you can find errors in here. Save your sarcastic jokes; I'm claiming I can write, not write perfect rough drafts into a Mozilla text box.)
Re:Research me! (Score:2, Funny)
"I want to shoot whoever designed them."
Prone to violence.
"He (and I highly doubt it's a "she") seems to be under the impression that the job of a phone ring is to force you to pay attention to the phone."
Sexist!
"Just now as I write, I looked and the phone doesn't even have a "Do Not Disturb" button that would force the call into voice mail"
Anti-social.
Also a Python programmer.
Recommendation: No hire.
Re:Research me! (Score:2)
Recommendation: Please, don't hire me.
To be fair, I think you're trying to score a few quick "+1, Funny" moderations, and I understand this. Turnabout's fair play.
(Meta-point: People are human. I defy you to find one person over
Re:Research me! (Score:2, Funny)
Ability to work with others? (Score:2)
Is that the ability to understand and use API devellopped by others ?
Or, the wisdom to not rewrite all the code you consider bad ?
Or, the social skill to entertains good relations with coworkers ?
Or, the intelligence to query others when you're stuck on a problem?
The truth is, for sure, all at once... and i think i got all these quality to "work with others" but, in my job, i work alone 90%
Re:Ability to work with others? (Score:3, Insightful)
This is why so many tech guys complain constantly about how management is clueless as to their contribution, or does not give them adequate support, etc. It's caused in large part by the tech community being very territorial and often antagonistic. It makes it much easier for the business managers to sit in an isolated room and make decisions about the tech staff without actually discussing it with
There's something else: (Score:2, Insightful)
Volunteering is an indication of skill and passion (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyhow, as any law student knows, volunteering in the community is an absolute necessity. Many employers won't even consider you if you haven't done significant volunteer work during law school, and you're expected to do so during your career.
The computer industry should be no different. Pro bono work should be considered the NORM.
Re:Volunteering is an indication of skill and pass (Score:4, Insightful)
(And before you accuse me of being greedy, I do contribute to open-source projects in my spare time.)
Slashdot ID's and other covert behavior... (Score:4, Insightful)
Let me prove myself on the job I'm hired to do and please leave my slashdot account, my credit score, my medical history, and my weekly garbage to myself thank you.
Hire Me. Please=)? (Score:2)
HP's way to do this (Score:2, Funny)
1. Build an office building in India.
2. Hire an Indian.
(Yes, I'm bitter. I need a good hit to my karma once in a while... [No pun intended.])
Re:Answer: you don't (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Answer: you don't (Score:5, Insightful)
There are lots of talented out of work people, be they developers, programmers, graphic designers, musicians, teachers, astrophysicists, lawyers, actors... I could go on, but, you know, I don't really want to. People don't always get hired simply for their skillsets. I've said before that some of the most talented people don't get hired because of a lack of specific skills in other areas. People lose jobs, or lose bids on jobs/contracts, because they can't handle talking to "real people." Obviously that's not the only reason, but that's a big one. My father works for a school board, and there are people who would love to work as a teacher, but are terrible in social situations. On the flip side of things, we have programmers who are less than the most competent people in their literal field that don't get hired because they can't work with other people.
I for one know I wouldn't want to hire someone, regardless of their boundless talent, if they were a flaming dickhead.
Re:Answer: you don't (Score:2, Interesting)
The thing is, there's a fine line between expecting an employee to be flexible and expecting an employee to work well beyond the call of duty. It's a bonus to have an employee who can work beyond that which s/he was hired for. However, it's becoming less and less a "bonus" and more and more a "prerequisite." Doing extra has become a requirement,
Re:Answer: you don't (Score:2)
Your example sounds like someone set a ridiculously high bar for social interaction, but "don't be a total flaming dickhead" is a low one. It's the social equivalent of writing hello.c and if someone can't do even that much then they don't deserve to get hired anywhere. Not even at Mall-Wart. Everyone has to deal with someone, even if it's only their boss,
Re:Of course (Score:4, Funny)
+1 Insightful? Wow...
Re:Of course (Score:4, Informative)