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Databases Programming Software IBM Java IT

Cloudscape Gains Momentum 139

Posted by Hemos from the ibms-big-move dept.
A reader writes: "There's been a lot of bits written recently about the growth of Open Source databases; as well as IBM's patent gift, as their release of the Java database Cloudscape. There's a contest running on SourceForge.net around Cloudscape; download and run with it." SF.net is part of OSTG, like Slashdot.
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Cloudscape Gains Momentum More

Cloudscape Gains Momentum

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  • Java database ? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:01AM (#11478973)

    wouldn't it be quicker to print your data on paper and sort it by hand ?

    • Java zealot's response (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      No, no, no, you get it all wrong.

      Java is now no longer a technology to add bullshit to webbrowsers.

      It is a mature (so says Sun), fast (so says Sun) and memory-conservative (so says Sun) platform which is platform-independent (so says Sun).

      It is used in major companies and organizations for mission-critical and user-centric applications which leverage the power of the human resources and empower an increasi in return-on-investment.

      Do you want to imply that the CEOs and CTOs of most major companies are *g
      • Oooh, lookie! It's a trolling AC. Ok, I'll bite.

        Java *is* a mature language celebrating its 10th year in 2005. J2EE, as the sum of its collective parts (EJB, Servlets, JSP, RMI) has been around for 7 years. By industry standards, these are "old-timers".

        Java is memory "conservative" (on a server), requiring far less RAM than the .NET platform. Depending on the application server that you implement, you will find varying degrees of performance. Try not to give in to the uninformed mindset that the Java runt

    • Re:Java database ? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Eric Giguere ( 42863 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:13AM (#11479022) Homepage Journal

      Hey, I like Java as much as anyone, but if you're looking for a fast, multi-platform, zero-administration database be sure to check out SQL Anywhere Studio [ianywhere.com]. The Developer Edition is completely free and runs on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X, Netware and most flavors of Windows, including CE/PocketPC. See the description of what's in SQL Anywhere Studio [ianywhere.com] for details. (Note that some of you may remember SQL Anywhere as Watcom SQL.)

      Eric
      Listen, folks: JavaScript is NOT Java! [ericgiguere.com]

      • But that is not embeddable (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MarkEst1973 ( 769601 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:55AM (#11479264)
        Your post was certainly informative in that others might have learned about a new tool and are looking at Sql Anywhere, but to be fair, the purpose of that tool is different than Cloudscape's.

        Embedding a database in an application can be very useful, such as in a desktop GUI where you cannot rely on network communication or maybe don't want to bother with a client/server environment.

        I'd certainly consider Java/Cloudscape for a desktop db-backed application over anything built in Access.

        As always, fit the tool to the job, not the job to the tool.

        • I have found the ability to embed the database in the application exceptionally useful for a recent J2EE deployment we worked on.

          I liked the idea of just being able to plop the org.apache.derby.jdbc.EmbeddedXADataSource class into my connection pool and have a database. I like that I can tell the suits that the database is built by IBM and that's all I hear about it. And I like that once this venture grows and starts to make more money I can switch fairly seemlessly to DB2.

          It probably should not be cons

        • People mean different things when they say "embedded". Do you mean "embedded" as in actually part of the application, or do you mean "embedded" as in the database is a server process on the same device (no networking involved)? It wasn't clear from the post.

          There are in fact two database technologies in SQL Anywhere Studio. First there is Adaptive Server Anywhere [ianywhere.com], the full-featured relational database that runs on all the platforms mentioned. Second is UltraLite [ianywhere.com], a small-footprint database for Palm OS and

        • Cloudscape looks really nice. I'm not a Java guy, though, so I use SQLLite (http://www.sqlite.org/ [sqlite.org]) as my embedded database.

        • "Embedding a database in an application can be very useful, such as in a desktop GUI where you cannot rely on network communication or maybe don't want to bother with a client/server environment."

          I completely disagree. I think most people think that SQL Anywhere is just used for client/server communication when in fact you can also easily use it for standalone use in embedded applications. In fact, I would argue that SQL Anywhere is far easier to embed than Cloudscape since you only need to deal with 2

        • I just finished a project for a client built around Access 2000. When I found out that the requirements changed, and the clients were using a mix of Access2000, Access XP, and Access 2003 versions, I had some serious issues with getting Access Forms to work successfully with all three. Suffice it to say, I pinned them to Access XP to make their deadline (Dec 31), with further work postponed. Who knows if that work will come.

          Never again will I write an Access Forms application. I'd rather write it in a
      • If you want a fast, multi platform, zero administration database that's also open source check out firebird [sourceforge.net].
    • IBM uses the cloudscape database as backend to a lot of products like Worksphere Portal.
      They normally recomend DB2 for production but one of the latest products "Workplace Services Express" can only be used with the embedded Cloudscape.

      The product is intended for SMB and scales upto 1000 users. And this is for Groupware/Document storage etc. http://www.lotus.com/products/product5.nsf/wdocs/w orkplaceservicesexpresshome/ [lotus.com]

    • It is fast (Score:2, Interesting)

      by sasoon ( 727664 )
      Download and you will see that it is fast. Have not tried Derby, but I tried http://mckoi.com/database/ [mckoi.com] 2 years ago. It was very fast. Under win32 I compared it with a MS jet engine database (mdb file) with the jdbc odbc bridge driver, almost equal speed, plus the possibility to work with unicode strings.

  • Eh.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by oisteink ( 234061 )
    And the story is about?

    marketing?

    • Re:Eh.. (Score:2, Informative)

      by Jackdaw Rookery ( 696327 )
      I think you may have missed the point of the post, the story is advertising Slashdot jumping the shark.

      Well OK maybe not, but this is a fluff piece at best, self advertising at worst. Plus the prize is US only so it cuts out a lot if interest right away.

      Nothing to see here, move along.
    • Yeah, haven't you noticed all of the CloudScape adds on Slashdot?

      "Test your skills with Java and Win an IPod - Take the Challenge for Java"

      "Download the Newest Open Source Database. Easy to Learn and Use. Fast Download. Do It Now!" I hope Slashdot continues to post articles about their paid sponsors.

  • Wrong language, wrong thing. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by InterruptDescriptorT ( 531083 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:02AM (#11478979) Homepage
    A Java database?

    Isn't that a little bit like writing a Fast Fourier Transform [wolfram.com] in LISP?

    There are lots of things that Java is perfectly suited for. Databases are not one of those things.

    • Re:Wrong language, wrong thing. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sporty ( 27564 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:06AM (#11478990) Homepage
      Why not? If it's fast enough, and it works, it'd be good for java embeded applications and/or stuff that uses a database for scratch-work. It could also be used instead of complex data structures in memory that require massaging to get anything out of.
      • I'm building a data entry tool at the moment for remote field operators. Since disconnected operation is important, I need to have a database to store data from Excel source files, rather than parse that Excel data in real time. Cloudscape fits that need, since I've chosen not to use .Net and COM.

        On the backend, I'm a PostgreSQL/MSSQL guy.

    • Java IS NOT slow

      If anything, the interface gives it a feeling of slow.

      • Re:Java IS slow (Score:2, Interesting)

        by WillerZ ( 814133 )
        Portable Java is slow, because you have to use the abstract types sun give you rather than exploit your platform's capabilities.

        The JVM initialisation time is waaay longer than the C runtime initialisation time on every platform I've tested, which makes short-running processes feel awful in Java.

        Finally, whenever it becomes necessary to actually _do_ anything, the JNI must be crossed, and that's slow.

        Phil
        • Finally, whenever it becomes necessary to actually _do_ anything, the JNI must be crossed, and that's slow. wtf???

          I can't take anyone seriously when they say the above.

          The JNI is not slow...

          • Read this very carefully.

            To send a network packet in C: construct it in your program; call write(), which is a system call.

            To send a network packet in Java: construct it in your program; call YadaYada.write(), which copies it across the JNI to a C module; C module calls write() which is a system call.

            No matter how fast the JNI is, CROSSING IT WILL ALWAYS BE SLOWER THAN NOT CROSSING IT.

            This is not a difficult concept. The JNI tax applies whenever you need to do anything which must be accomplished with a

            • Re:Yes, it is. (Score:4, Interesting)

              by Ryosen ( 234440 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @03:41PM (#11484454)
              I think you might be misunderstanding what JNI is. Each Java runtime provides its own implementation to the native underlying system libraries. Java does not communicate through JNI for I/O of any kind.

              JNI itself is a generic abstraction layer to the underlying operating system. It provides a mechanism whereby dynamic libraries not directly supported by the runtime engine can still be accessed by a Java application.

              Threading, sockets and GUI are implemented via the native system libraries. AWT used to be very slow (as opposed to just being merely slow today) due to its own multi-layed abstraction. But at no time was JNI the conduit for these systems.

              Further reading: http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/native1.1/ concepts/index.html [sun.com]

    • Re:Wrong language, wrong thing. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by sonofagunn ( 659927 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:24AM (#11479073)
      Have fun embedding your C database inside a Java server app (I think you've missed the point of Cloudscape).
    • There are lots of things that Java is perfectly suited for. Databases are not one of those things.

      Funny, I remember the 'it's too slow' argument being used against C++ 20 years ago.

    • Re:Wrong language, wrong thing. (Score:5, Informative)

      by EkkiEkkiShiwaddle ( 823778 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:47AM (#11479189)
      There are lots of things that Java is perfectly suited for. Databases are not one of those things.

      I'm a Java developer, and have been almost from the very start of Java. While I tend to agree with you at first, I would like to point out some benefits of using Cloudscape.

      Over the years I've had a few (small, hobby) projects, where I really felt the need for a database which did not need to be fast nor did it need to be huge. So I tried Cloudscape. And while it isn't the fastest around, it gets the job done.

      The easiest part is that you can just bundle it with your application, without writing a single line of code!

      I've tried MySQL, but I still need to install it prior to being able to run my application - no need for that with Cloudscape.

      But, granted, it is not the fastest out there. If I need a *real* database, I just use Oracle.

    • Write a program in cpp. Run it. a million times.

      Now write a program in Java. Guess what, Java is not an interpretted language. It doesn't use some fluffy brightly coloured play-doh type bits, it uses regular ones, like cpp binaries.

      Java compiled the byte code into executable form. Then it does some on the fly optimisation.

      Java VM's can out-perform cpp over n cycles, where n is sufficient to overcome Java start times (seconds)

      Secondly, FFT or a DCT in Java or cpp, I haven't seen benchmarks, but there are
    • There are lots of things that Java is perfectly suited for. Databases are not one of those things.

      Slashdotters love broad, generalized statements. (oops) ;-)

      I disagree with you completely. For example, simple embedded databases (see HSQLDB [sourceforge.net]) can be very useful. I know someone who's teaching an class with Java and wanted to touch on databases. A java-based database (in this case, HSQLDB can run in-process) is great for this. You don't have to install a huge server on your development system just to l

    • Common Lisp is fast and efficient for numeric calculations (*) - I have used it for large neural network training runs, FFTs (I found a library -did not write it myself), etc.

      While Java and Python are the languages that I most frequently use, CL is a powerful tool - try it!

      (*) with compiler type directives
    • Trolling about Java and Lisp at the same time? Isn't that a little bit like ASKING FOR IT? Fast Fourier Transform is actually one of the traditional benchmarks [cliki.net] for Common Lisp, the Gabriel series. Now run along and play in traffic.
    • Actually, modern Lisp implementations can be faster than compiled C. Some Lisps run like lightning on numerical stuff. See here for an example:
      http://home.comcast.net/~bc19191/blog/040308.html
    • It's amazing how people who don't RTFA get modded up. I guess the moderators don't RTFA any more than the posters or the editors.

      From the article:

      • IBM Cloudscape(TM) V10.0 is a pure, open source-based Java relational database management system that can be embedded in Java programs and used for online transaction processing (OLTP). A platform-independent, small-footprint (2MB) database, Cloudscape V10.0 integrates tightly with any Java-based solution.
      • Read why IBM is open sourcing Cloudscape as Derby.
    • "Wrong language, wrong thing."

      Actually I think it is something Java has needed. Think of it as sort of MS Access for Java. There are lots of applictions where a small embedded data engine would be usefull. Sure you could do it in flat files, but why? A data engine just makes the development that much simpler and faster.

  • You can win an Ipod or TShirt only if you are US or Canada resident....are they trying to encorage inmigration? The rest of the world should not bother about using Cloudscape I assume...

    • You can win an Ipod or TShirt only if you are US or Canada resident....are they trying to encorage inmigration? The rest of the world should not bother about using Cloudscape I assume...

      Let's see, most people would need at least an hour to write a JDBC application to search the tables for some silly magic word. Most eligible contestants from the US and Canada who have the knowledge to write such an application make more than enough in one hour to buy an iPod and a T-shirt. So why should anyone even bothe

      • Make enough in an hour to buy an iPod? An iPod shuffle 512MB, if you're lucky... I want to work in this mythical place you refer to, where the hourly rate is >=$99/hour...

        I'm lucky to see less than half that.

  • As usual (Score:3, Interesting)

    by cpct0 ( 558171 ) <slashdot.micheldonais@com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:07AM (#11478996) Homepage Journal

    Only one entry per person and you must be a US or Canadian (except for Quebec) resident over the age of 18 to play.


    I'm from Quebec ... and as usual, contents makers will not take the trouble of being compatible with Loto-Québec's rules. They are easy to follow, strangely... not a lot of stuff to fill in. It mainly is there to make sure we don't get screwed up


    ... and it also means everyone in the other countries will not be able to participate. Yeehaa

    • Is it cos I is black?

    • Re:As usual (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      No, the contest creators are agreeing that Quebec should be its own country. You should be proud.
    • .. and THE DAMN ADS STILL GET SHOWN to people outside of usa.

      with all this locator jumbo bungo you'd expect that they'd demand that they don't waste their adviews on indians.

  • What's in a name? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Trejkaz ( 615352 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:08AM (#11478997) Homepage
    Wasn't Cloudscape donated to the Apache project, where it changed its name to Derby? Don't IBM think that offering a download of "Cloudscape" is going to confuse developers?

    • Apache at the ASF (Score:4, Informative)

      by dirkx ( 540136 ) <dirkx@vangulik.org> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @04:22PM (#11484942) Homepage
      Yes it was - see the Derby [apache.org] project in the Incubator.

      Beeing in the incubator does not yet mean it is a full blown ASF project - but that the ASF is in the process of ensuring that there is a healthy community around it, that all the legal paperwork, trademakrs, grants, copyrights and other interlectual rights are sorted out, that commiter license agreements are on file for each developer, etc, etc..

      Once that is all in place (and getting a healthy long term community is hardest - the rest is just endless grunt work and digging through code and legal paperwork dotting i's and crossing t's) it'll leave the incubator and be a full blown process.

      Feel invited to join and make this happen ;-)

      Dw.

  • Spelling mistake in submission (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:08AM (#11478998)
    The submitter mispelt 'cynical ploy' as 'patent gift', wake up editors.

  • I've written a review of this (Score:5, Informative)

    by Simon Brooke ( 45012 ) * <stillyet@googlemail.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:15AM (#11479038) Homepage Journal

    As it happens I've already written a review of cloudscape; the google cache of it is here [google.com].

    Brief summary: get the Apache version [apache.org]; reasonably full SQL92 syntax; performance OK; a bit lacking on security.

  • Here is a swell idea! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:35AM (#11479125)
    Lets see how many open source projects we can get going at one time to compete against one another with absolutely no standardization! YESSSS!

    But seriously -- this is getting out of hand. If every single company, individual, etc. starts an open source project what does that accomplish? Nothing. It brings about 100 different alternatives to the market most of which would never be viable in a commercial environment.

    News flash: devote time and effort to succesful projects that extend the reach of the open source community. Another open source database project is just well... another project.
    • If you, my friend, didn't get it: this is the idea of OS. Not to be restricted to some few projects. And I always find something with stands for or against any new project, when I am devoting some time to it.

  • C++ Databases and Open Source (Score:3, Informative)

    by plasticmillion ( 649623 ) <matthew@allpeers.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:42AM (#11479154) Homepage
    I was struck during our search for a database for our product by the paucity of systems that fulfill our requirements:
    1. Small and embeddable
    2. Open source
    3. Native C++ interface
    It seems like practically all the databases that fill the first two requirements are written in Java and use it as their primary API. Finally we settled on Sleepycat's Berkeley DB XML, which meets these requirements and has a native XML interface to boot. The one potential caveat is that they use a hybrid license that lets users "opt out" of the GPL by paying a fee, after which they can distribute their product as closed source. Personally I think this is a great thing (always nice to have more options and you don't have to pay anything if you product is also open source), but I'd be interested in the views of the /. crowd.

  • Purpose (Score:3, Informative)

    by barryman_5000 ( 805270 ) <barryman5000@gmail.com> on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @08:47AM (#11479190)
    Best thing about cloudscape is small embedded databases for java programs rather than making calls to a huge mysql database. You may say that java is slow but anyone using cloudscape for more than 20,000 entries may not be thinking that through. Cloudscape will also be useful for java programmers to program a database using java.
    • *This* gets modded insightful? No disrespect, but the guy just repeated a couple of very obvious points about a small, embeddable Java database...
  • Although I'm in the UK, I downloaded Cloudscape and the contest files [sourceforge.net] yesterday, just because it sounded like a cool challenge.

    I thought it would be a great test of my increasing Java skills and maybe I'd learn more about transactions, stored procedures, etc.

    Well, an hour later I'd got Cloudscape working, I'd unlocked the Magic Word and I was looking it up in the dictionary thinking "is it really a real word?"

    If you can do SELECTs, it's quite a trivial 'challenge' I'm afraid.

    • Yeah, I was disappointed too. I didn't have to write a single line of Java to solve the "Java Challenge."
    • C'mon now, it's not supposed to be a difficult challenge.

      If you step back and think about it for a minute, the goal here is to generate buzz, get developers to download the product and try it out, and have a small amount of "success" with it. Now all of a sudden, Cloudscape is on the radar of a large number of developers, and is more likely to be considered for use in upcoming projects.

  • Arrrrghh! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Moe Yerca ( 14391 ) on Wednesday January 26, 2005 @09:03AM (#11479335) Journal
    You bastards! Thanks for cutting my chances of winning an iPod down 100x.

  • So how does it compare to the alternatives? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Namely HSQLDB [sourceforge.net] and Mckoi [mckoi.com]?

    Anyone find a decent article comparing the three yet?
  • The most interesting part of that Cloudscape promotion on SF is the prize tht follows the pattern of all other promotions I've seen recently: "Win an iPod!"

    That says something about Apple and iPod brand, no? That is also a great marketing for Apple and its iPod product! Jobs must be rubbing his hands...

  • Read the License (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    How many of you actually read through the license? Did you see the part where they can use any of your contact information and provide ANYTHING they get about you. So, it looks like IBM is now in the business of providing SPAM databases as well.

    I should note that I stopped there. I will unlikely ever download and use the product, regardless of usefullness.

  • What do the iPod and IBM have to do with each other again? Remotely maybe the boost in sales of iPods correlates to a boost in Power4/5 Processors for IBM, but only remotely.

    This would have been a much better promotion if IBM had given away a free license for DB2 or something. Think about it, all the companies that want a license for DB2 check out cloudscape and see what it is all about because they want a license for DB2.
  • I downloaded Cloudscape and started the install. I had to read the license before proceeding. I found it absolutely incomprehensible. Is this a license for personal use? Do I have to pay for distributing it with my app? What if I set it up as a server db via networking? More licenses? I could not figure out what I was obtaining. It CERTAINLY was not 'free' software.
  • Finally and embedable database for robocode [ibm.com]robot. I will finally have and easy way all the data on all my oponents movements... !! !!

    And still get wiped out..

  • For the nay-sayers out there...

    An embedded database is quite useful. Imagine the following scenario.

    You're writing an application; say something that you want to sell or distribute on the net. Now, let's say you're program uses a heft amount of data and needs to perform complex searches against it. I'm not talking about free-text, but for columns whose values are between certain ranges or that follow a formula. Also, image that said information is relatively static.

    Now, you could force all of your cu
  • I was having a hard time maintaining a distinction between unit testing and integration testing with some of my back-end code until Cloudscape came out.

    Now, instead of needing to have a container up, or have a database running or similar, I can embed cloudscape (which is quite small, really), set up a group of in-memory tables with the state I need, execute a unit, then check the tables for correctness and destroy the database.

    Shazam, database unit tests - no external dependencies.

    A lot of people are mum
  • I have been playing around with Nukes [jboss.org], a Java CMS/Portal framework (kind of from the JBoss group).

    One nice thing is that you can download a version of Nukes that includes JBoss, Nukes, and even an embeded DB - Hsqldb. You can also use it with MySQL and Postgres if you like.

    So does anyone know how Hsqldb compares with Cloudscape?

    Downloading Nukes with an embedded DB is really nice to be able to play around with the system right away without any configuration work and is a good example of why an embedded
  • What is the purpose of embedding SQL?

    Why would I handicap myself like that, when I don't need ad-hoc reporting and when no other system is going to share my data?

    Why wouldn't I just use native Java objects?

    See you, Klaus.
    http://www.db4o.com/ [db4o.com] - The Leading Open Source Object Database
    http://www.prevayler.org/ [prevayler.org] - Do You Still Use a Database?
    • Because that would then mean that your DB queries are stuck to that one DB. And LOTS of people know SQL, too. You don't want every developer involved in an app that needs to store data to have to learn a whole new API.
  • Another option for embeddable databases: db4objects ( http://www.db4o.com/ [db4o.com]).

    The runtime is a JAR that's about 300KB in size, with about a 1 meg memory footprint.

    Companies like BMW and Bosch have chosen it to drive their automobiles and robots respectively.

    The best way to get a feel for db4objects is to look at how simple the code is you get to write. For example:

    To store a Pilot object:

    ObjectContainer db=Db4o.openFile(Util.YAPFILENAME);
    try {
    Pilot pilot1=new Pilot("Michael Schumacher",100);
    db.set(

  • The stuff I'm working on is GPLed, so I can't use Cloudscape -- it's got a restrictive IBM license. I don't care if I can read the source, I care about having a liberal license.

    So I'm going with McKoi.

  • I'd love a little iPod, but I admit defeat. Installing and setting up Java software is just too much work for an old-fart C++/unix geek.

    Fondly I recall those halcyon days of tar, configure and make. Oh, what the heck, throw in a make check to see if all is well in the world, and to demonstrate just how to use the software (e.g. what environment variables to set).

    But those days are gone. In this brave new java world [as IBM sees through its clouds] we're presented with a weird amalgum of GUI and CLI.

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